Watchmen. [SPOILERS!]

[Stark]

^ That's fair. I don't know how else to handle it without increasing the running time, though. Making that scene any longer would have robbed the building climax of all momentum, and I can't think of another natural place to put some Laurie flashbacks.

I'd agree this was probably the motive if not for all the time Snyder wasted on his gore and slowmo fetish. Because they restructured it (from 'having a chat jogs your memory' to 'magic blue hand') it's not like the scene will ever be 'fixed' in longer versions. The scene isn't removable plot-wise, but they turned it from a few minutes to a few seconds of climax that falls flat and it makes me sad. A few cuts that repeated once but shorter would have worked fine if they'd had music that created mood.

[Anguirus]

^ Yeah, I was talking with someone today about that, and my thoughts were "this is the price you pay for getting Zack Snyder." I'm not a fan of 300 at all, nor of Snyder's style particularly, but he was the only director with the clout and the motivation to make a faithful Watchmen (i.e. Dan doesn't kill Ozy by crashing the Owlship into him...also, movie actually set in '80s). It's like of like my thoughts on Peter Jackson...you weigh his frankly annoying stylistic choices versus the fact that he gives a shit and got the movie made well.

[Stark]

That's all true, and most of the movie is fine regardless. It's just galling/frustrating to be so close to great and fail just because of the director's personal style.

Peter Jackson is a good example; I thought the first LOTR movie was fine (most of it's flaws were shared with the book) but the later movies increasingly changed things to 'the Peter Jackson Version' until by ROTK it was just awful and self-indulgent. I think Watchmen is like this in miniature, because the first act/third of the movie is pretty much spot-on. It's only later the choices and changes start to hurt the movie.

[Loner]

Slightly off-topic; a piece of Watchmen merchandise not available to the public.

[ray245]

World peace? Sure, Humanity will bond together for a short while, but once they realise they are afraid of someone that might not even come back to Earth, wars and fighting will start once again.

The movie doesn't address it, but Veidt actually has plans for world domination in the book. He doesn't just kill ten million people and leave it at that, he uses it as a catalyst to allow him to lead the world to his vision of utopia. Veidt's plan only starts with some wild and implausible way of pulling back humanity from the brink of total annhilation. Exactly what he plans to do is essentially unimportant, mind.

However how the hell do you maintain peace anyway? Peace is build or maintain through a constant efforts of trying to be as rational as possible and be able to understand that war is a last resort.

Seeking something that it totally implausible to begin with means there is no moral ambiguity in regards to Veidt's solution. The thing that Alan Moore preached about in this comic, about the whole moral ambiguity simply falls apart with his far-fetch and impossible goal.

[Ford Prefect]

However how the hell do you maintain peace anyway?

I don't know. It's not even important for us to know. The story ends ambiguously on purpose.

Seeking something that it totally implausible to begin with means there is no moral ambiguity in regards to Veidt's solution. The thing that Alan Moore preached about in this comic, about the whole moral ambiguity simply falls apart with his far-fetch and impossible goal.

That's not how moral ambiguity works. The ambiguity comes from doing terrible, awful things in order to save the world from nuclear armageddon.

[ray245]

Seeking something that it totally implausible to begin with means there is no moral ambiguity in regards to Veidt's solution. The thing that Alan Moore preached about in this comic, about the whole moral ambiguity simply falls apart with his far-fetch and impossible goal.

That's not how moral ambiguity works. The ambiguity comes from doing terrible, awful things in order to save the world from nuclear armageddon.

Half the reason why the world approach Armageddon in the story was due to Dr Manhattan leaving Earth to begin with. Hell, if Dr Mahattan is able to see alternate worlds, he should be able to see our world and etc, worlds that is able to diffuse the tension without a Nuclear war.

Hell, letting a number of Nukes goes off in select cities and cause Humanity to truly understand how power and dangerous Nuclear war can be a moral ambiguous solution than a solution that seeks to turn the world into a Hippie paradise, which is totally impossible to maintain.

[General Zod]

Half the reason why the world approach Armageddon in the story was due to Dr Manhattan leaving Earth to begin with. Hell, if Dr Mahattan is able to see alternate worlds, he should be able to see our world and etc, worlds that is able to diffuse the tension without a Nuclear war.

Did you completely miss the whole sideplot where Manhattan was having his ability to see the future interfered with by one of Veidt's devices?

[ray245]

Half the reason why the world approach Armageddon in the story was due to Dr Manhattan leaving Earth to begin with. Hell, if Dr Mahattan is able to see alternate worlds, he should be able to see our world and etc, worlds that is able to diffuse the tension without a Nuclear war.

Did you completely miss the whole sideplot where Manhattan was having his ability to see the future interfered with by one of Veidt's devices?

Well, I thought his vision was restored when he make a choice to reveal or cover up the conspiracy? Which means he can think twice before agreeing to Veidt's action.

[Imperial Overlord]

I saw it on IMAX and it was gorgeous. I have to say I really liked the movie overall and was happy it was as faithful as it managed to be. For a adaptation that was just under three hours that's an amazing accomplishment. I like Snyder's slow mo-normal speed mixes for fight scenes so that didn't bother me. There's a bunch of little things I can nitpick (I didn't think the actor pulled off the Comedian's break down at Moloch's, the knifing in the alley brawl, the gore level was too high, etcetera) but that's mostly been covered already. The movie felt like it was happening in the 80s and it felt like the Watchman. Overall Snyder delivered exactly what I had been hoping for and while he has his flaws he did manage to deliver a damn good movie.

As a side note, I felt the opening montage was really effective.

[Zixinus]

I just watched the thing.

My opinion: aside a few oddities, its as best adoption possible considering the huge, huge, huge[/] complexity of the source material. Granted, several key subtleties of the source material are lost (the part of "OMG, the COMEDIAN'S MA DADY" and the ending with the whole "deformed humanity" shit), but its still fairly acceptable.

I wasn't particularly bothered by the sex and violence. Frankly, I didn't pay much attention to the violence. The sex was only slightly more interesting.

I wonder how much better the director's cut will be.

To be fair, I can see how Watchmen is just an incredibly complicated and deep to be simply transformed into a movie, where the investors go with the assumption that 90% of the movie goers are drop-dead retarded.

[Ford Prefect]

Half the reason why the world approach Armageddon in the story was due to Dr Manhattan leaving Earth to begin with. Hell, if Dr Mahattan is able to see alternate worlds, he should be able to see our world and etc, worlds that is able to diffuse the tension without a Nuclear war.

Then you fundamentally don't understand the story of Watchmen. Yes, Osterman's presence was maintaining equilibrium, but his existence caused the Russian's to initiate a massive build up of nuclear arms, resulting in 51,000 nuclear warheads that could be delivered to the North American continent (in reality the Soviet stockpiles reached something like 45,000, but as I recall they could not all be conceivably be delivered intercontinentally). The book makes it quite explicit that the Russian arms build-up has reached a point where the US is not sure that Doctor Manhattan would be capable of preventing the complete destruction of the United States. The movie is more ambiguous, but basic thrust is the same: Jon Osterman is not a perfect strategic deterrent. Even when he was still in the US, the Russians were still willing to push the US for everything it could get - the doomsday clock reached four minutes to midnight while he was still there. Doctor Manhattans existence, and the way with which Nixon flaunted him, actually inflamed tensions between the East and West.

Veidt accelerated Jon's departure from earth, but it is made clear that he would have left eventually anyway and once he left, nuclear conflict was inevitable. That's how the universe of Watchmen is constructed: remember that when it was written, the Soviet Union didn't look like it was collapsing any time soon. It's an alternate universe, one where things which hold true in our world may not necessarily turn out the same way in Watchmen. Doctor Manhattan fundamentally changes the Cold War.

Hell, letting a number of Nukes goes off in select cities and cause Humanity to truly understand how power and dangerous Nuclear war can be a moral ambiguous solution than a solution that seeks to turn the world into a Hippie paradise, which is totally impossible to maintain.

I can carely understand this sentence and I can still tell you don't understand what 'moral ambiguity' means. It's morally ambiguous because Ozymandias' plan is to save the world, but his motivations are not necessarily so pure and the acts themselves are evil. You seem to be thinking in degrees of success, and we never find out if Ozymandias was successful in the long term. The story even has an open ending in this regard.

[Anguirus]

As a side note, I felt the opening montage was really effective.

Wholeheartedly agreed, that did wonders in catching my "Watchmen virgin" friends up and getting them into the world of the film.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

First thoughts: It was excellent, and, except as noted below, everything was great.

As everyone has mentioned, the Gore fetish was a waste of screen-time. Other scenes seemed simplified or changed for no good reason, ie, Manhattan's watchmaking past, when to add that to his monologue would have been trivial, they already had the Osterman Senior scene and actor, and it wouldn't have been any longer, so why tell rather than show? Further, I'm annoyed by what they did to Veidt, making him less sympathetic and less human. He remains completely composed all the way through, with the certainty of a complete madman, when in the book he cries and shouts in triumph when his plan succeeds, then desperately seeks validation from Manhattan, only to be left doubtful and shaken. That final scene between them should definitely have been included. Further, the placement of his 'My past' monologue was abrupt and silly, much like the whole 'Oil bad!' scene of stupidness. And the Comedian/ Sally/ Laurie stuff could have been done better.

[VF5SS]

Here's the original gang fight in the comic for comparison.

I have to agree that the fight scenes were too drawn out. Also I agree that changing the ending hurt the story. I can understand trying to streamline the master plan to tie it more closely with the characters in the film, but how is mankind supposed to unite against Dr. Manhattan? The squid was pretty freaky and out there, but at least it was demonstratively mortal. I'm too hung up on it not being like the comic, but the presentation felt too sanitized like a PG-13 movie. A giant explosion that vaporizes people in a CGI light doesn't have the same impact as a red-hued scene of millions of dead bodies lying in the streets of New York. Other than that I enjoyed the movie.

[Nephtys]

How did the ending HURT the story?

I mean. When I read the book, I saw waaaaay more problems with that ending than the movie's. So Adrian cloned a space squid based off an artist's sketch using the brain tissue of a psychic?! And learned how to teleport it and kill it in New York, creating a psychic shockwave that kills millions? That just utterly destroys disbelief, because not a THING about that makes the slightest sense before. Why do psychics exist? Where the hell was this for the entire rest of the story? Seriously, a giant squid 'alien' dying?

vs...

Veidt fakes Dr. Manhattan bombing a bunch of major cities around the world after his televised tantrum, which shocks everyone into the same result as the movie. He adds the part where Dr. Manhattan himself is building the thing used to frame him for multiple scenes in the movie, making it something that doesn't just come out of the blue.

It just... works better.

[fgalkin]

How did the ending HURT the story?

I mean. When I read the book, I saw waaaaay more problems with that ending than the movie's. So Adrian cloned a space squid based off an artist's sketch using the brain tissue of a psychic?! And learned how to teleport it and kill it in New York, creating a psychic shockwave that kills millions? That just utterly destroys disbelief, because not a THING about that makes the slightest sense before. Why do psychics exist? Where the hell was this for the entire rest of the story? Seriously, a giant squid 'alien' dying?

vs...

Veidt fakes Dr. Manhattan bombing a bunch of major cities around the world after his televised tantrum, which shocks everyone into the same result as the movie. He adds the part where Dr. Manhattan himself is building the thing used to frame him for multiple scenes in the movie, making it something that doesn't just come out of the blue.

It just... works better.

The movie ending is unquestionably superior from a story and worldbuilding point of view, Moore's ending makes absolutely no sense whatsoever from that standpoint.

However, the movie ending is a complete an utter non sequitur because it shouldn't lead to the same result as the comic. It breaks suspension of disbelief as much as the old ending, if not more!

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[VF5SS]

Oops, I made a typo. I meant to say I was not too hung up on it not being a squid. My main problem is that how is humanity supposed to unite against a being who is completely immortal and a god? They could've done anything else that was equally horrific but not totally insurmountable. Like I said, at least the squid died. Alien invasion, mutant outbreak, plague, or something else would've been more satisfying than suggesting mankind is going to somehow stop Dr. Manhattan. Do they really think Dr. Manhattan is watching them going, "be good or I'll smite you!" and that there's something they can do about it? Plus the presentation of the bombs just felt too clean. Even cleaner than Judgment Day in the Terminator movies. Burned out rubble is like something you can see in Wall-E, but a city full of corpses can drive home the atrocity.

[Vendetta]

That just utterly destroys disbelief,

In the way that Dr. Manhattan, a man who got ripped apart on an atomic level, didn't die, and instead attained powers beyond the ken of humanity, doesn't? Quite frankly, if you accept the naked blue dude with god powers, why not the squid beast?

Also, the implication of the end of the story is that this would have eventually fallen apart, probably sooner than Adrian thought.

[fgalkin]

That just utterly destroys disbelief,

In the way that Dr. Manhattan, a man who got ripped apart on an atomic level, didn't die, and instead attained powers beyond the ken of humanity, doesn't? Quite frankly, if you accept the naked blue dude with god powers, why not the squid beast?

Because aside from Dr. Manhattan who is one of the main points of divergence of this alt-history, the world is shown to be very similar to our own, and is supposed to be very realistic, what with none of the other Watchmen having any superpowers. The existence of psychics completely breaks that, and turns it into Generic Fantasy.

Also, the implication of the end of the story is that this would have eventually fallen apart, probably sooner than Adrian thought.

Of course. Veidt's plan is completely untenable. Even without Rorschach's journal, it would have collapsed within a few years at the most, probably much sooner. Veidt's problem is that he's smart enough to pull it off, but not smart enough to think things through, and stupid and arrogant enough to think he could pull it off on his own.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Vendetta]

Because aside from Dr. Manhattan who is one of the main points of divergence of this alt-history, the world is shown to be very similar to our own, and is supposed to be very realistic, what with none of the other Watchmen having any superpowers. The existence of psychics completely breaks that, and turns it into Generic Fantasy.

However, there are plenty of people in our world who claim to be psychic.

The way that Dr. Manhattan was created shows that in the Watchmen world at least, the consciousness exists as an entity seperate from the brain that generates it (hence his survival of the original incident), so in their universe, the claims of such "psychics" (remote viewing, etc) could be far more grounded in reality.

[Nephtys]

That just utterly destroys disbelief,

In the way that Dr. Manhattan, a man who got ripped apart on an atomic level, didn't die, and instead attained powers beyond the ken of humanity, doesn't? Quite frankly, if you accept the naked blue dude with god powers, why not the squid beast?

Also, the implication of the end of the story is that this would have eventually fallen apart, probably sooner than Adrian thought.

It's because the naked blue man was introduced and explained hundreds of pages ago, and is a critical component of the story, universe and soforth, as well as a developed character. Not a 'Oh, we had this psychic and made a giant telepathic squid-bomb! I am the world's smartest man!' explaination. Literally, the first mention of psychics was in the last pages, when Adrian was explaining it all. If a mention of psychic people was around earlier, that's one thing. Or if even that was a plot point. But the last chapter just had so much previously unheard of stuff coming out of nowhere to break disbelief.

The end result can be explained. I forget what is supported more, the 'We must play nice or Blue man kills us' angle, or the 'We should band together and figure out some form of defense'. Because Dr. M, while having an extremely potent array of powers, is not entirely omnipotent. He couldn't see through Veidt's tachyon technobabbler, Nor is he able to stop an unlimited number of ICBMs and such. So who knows. Veidt could well lie that he has a Dr. M repeller or something that works, and Manhattan would play along and stay away.

[Vain]

Further, I'm annoyed by what they did to Veidt, making him less sympathetic and less human. He remains completely composed all the way through, with the certainty of a complete madman, when in the book he cries and shouts in triumph when his plan succeeds, then desperately seeks validation from Manhattan, only to be left doubtful and shaken. That final scene between them should definitely have been included.

On this point in particular: I wish they had left in the 'I DID IT' line, but I didn't miss the final conversation with Manhattan. The last shot of Ozymandias in the film is him standing among the destruction in the main hall at Karnak, with the statue of Ramesses II behind him. You can see the inscription from the Shelley poem on the base of the statue:

"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"

He's not standing up straight; his head is hanging and he looks dejected. I think it perfectly conveyed that he has realized his own hubris and is having serious second thoughts about what he's done, but it's already too late. I don't envy him what he's feeling.

Also, I was really pleased with all of the detail they managed to fit into the film, even managing to add some relevant things that weren't even in the comic. Did anyone else notice that Ozymandias has the Narmer Palette in his office?

Finally, my major complaint was Dan and Laurie's casual killing of the KTs. I completely agree with Stark in that respect.

[fgalkin]

The end result can be explained. I forget what is supported more, the 'We must play nice or Blue man kills us' angle, or the 'We should band together and figure out some form of defense'. Because Dr. M, while having an extremely potent array of powers, is not entirely omnipotent. He couldn't see through Veidt's tachyon technobabbler, Nor is he able to stop an unlimited number of ICBMs and such. So who knows. Veidt could well lie that he has a Dr. M repeller or something that works, and Manhattan would play along and stay away.

Until he dies in an airship accident, and all things return to where they used to be, now with 100% more Naked Blue Man Power in the hands of the great powers.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Gil Hamilton]

I actually agree with fgalkin. Veidt's plan kind of fails in the movie in the fact that the Soviet's while they were afraid of Doctor Manhattan actually caused them to build more weapons than they ever did in real history. The Soviet Union never had more than 40,000 nuclear warheads TOTAL at any one time, and in Watchmen, they were stated to have 51,000 nukes ready to be fired. Doctor Manhattan's existence only stopped the Soviets in that his existence guaranteed that any nuclear exchange would go extremely poorly for them, so they built enough nukes to ensure that they'd get at least SOME of the US before US nukes and Doctor Manhattan incinerated the Warsaw Pact. That's not ensuring peace, that's just virtual attrition.

That's one of the points of Watchmen. Just because God exists and he is American doesn't mean world peace. Manhattan's existence only made the conflict that was going to happen worse, should the house of cards ever come apart. "Doctor Manhattan" going nuts and blowing up a bunch cities isn't going to change that, because the Soviets MUST have been prepared for the possibility that at some point, the Americans would use Manhattan as a first strike against them. The moment Veidt incinerated Moscow, the Soviets probably would have assumed it was a first strike in response to their invasion of Afghanistan and also their massing on the Western European front and launched everything they had because the bombs would have been on the way. After all, it's STATED in the comic and movie that the Russians were accusing the United States of trying to provoke them into a nuclear exchange with Doctor Manhattan and his disappearance.

The Psychic Space Squid, while silly to the extreme and OPENLY ripped off a Outer Limits episode, murdering half of New York City, doesn't come with the obvious result that guarentees nuclear war except for the fact that the movie declared it didn't. It is clearly an extraterrestrial threat and not something that could have easily been mistook as the first strike in a nuclear war.