The OotS Thread II

[Simon_Jester]

^ I think part of this is yielding to the sheer necessity of getting on with the damn story. Though I expect a few epic twists and turns.

Well, maybe, but he's spent quite a bit of time over the years on relatively 'side-trippy' material. It wouldn't make the strip better, but it would be possible. And if what he's decided to sacrifice is the idea that Girard's gate defenses actually present a meaningful challenge other than "we don't know where it is and he made it invisible," then I for one am disappointed. Dorukan had a huge dungeon and all sorts of wards and creatures. Soon had a fortress and an army. Girard had his clan, which, yes, are dead- but that shouldn't mean all his real defenses are gone.

[Marko Dash]

if girard has been dead awhile shouldn't that have disconnected his descendants from the effects of familicide?

[Rogue 9]

^ I think part of this is yielding to the sheer necessity of getting on with the damn story. Though I expect a few epic twists and turns.

Well, maybe, but he's spent quite a bit of time over the years on relatively 'side-trippy' material. It wouldn't make the strip better, but it would be possible. And if what he's decided to sacrifice is the idea that Girard's gate defenses actually present a meaningful challenge other than "we don't know where it is and he made it invisible," then I for one am disappointed. Dorukan had a huge dungeon and all sorts of wards and creatures. Soon had a fortress and an army. Girard had his clan, which, yes, are dead- but that shouldn't mean all his real defenses are gone.

And we don't know that they are. They haven't actually found the gate, and until they do we don't know what it's ultimate defenses are.

[Ellindsey]

if girard has been dead awhile shouldn't that have disconnected his descendants from the effects of familicide?

Familicide doesn't require a continuous chain of living relatives from the initial target to all the victims. The spell initially targeted all creatures considered to share the mother black dragon's bloodline. This included Girard, and all of his direct descendants, despite him being dead. Familicide then went on to find the last living ancestor of each one of those descendants, and then killed every sibling and descendant of those ancestors, which is how Penelope and any living siblings of hers died.

[Darth Tanner]

847 is up!

Tarquin opens by trying to kill his son.

[Solauren]

*Sniff* Now that's love!

[Serafina]

Very smart. The only one capable of attacking them in this position is V and possibly Durkon, who both have their match in spellcasters amongst Tarquins team, and the rest of his team would engage them as well, resulting in Victory.

[Elessar]

I'm glad that they're already opening up this match-up. I kind of expected Tarquin to stick around for 300+ strips before he plays his gambit, but I'm excited to see them properly match up.

I doubt that this battle will be decisive though. It doesn't feel that way given what happened to V.

And Thog must return...

[Lonestar]

Ha, I guess the Albino Lizard Priest really DOES like Durkon.

[Bedlam]

Very smart. The only one capable of attacking them in this position is V and possibly Durkon, who both have their match in spellcasters amongst Tarquins team, and the rest of his team would engage them as well, resulting in Victory.

Hailey's weapon of choice is a bow so she can probably return fire although without being in backstab range the damage she can do is fairly negligable baring magic items we dont know about.

[Serafina]

Very smart. The only one capable of attacking them in this position is V and possibly Durkon, who both have their match in spellcasters amongst Tarquins team, and the rest of his team would engage them as well, resulting in Victory.

Hailey's weapon of choice is a bow so she can probably return fire although without being in backstab range the damage she can do is fairly negligable baring magic items we dont know about.

Not really, if we stick to D&D-rules and Haley uses a shorbow.
Z is using long-range spells, which means a range of 400+(40xcaster level). A Shortbow on the other hand has a range increment of 60 feet, so Haley can only fire up to 600 feet away (700 if she's using a composite Shortbow). That means that Z outranges her, due to being above caster level 10 (12 if using a composite shortbow, 15 if using a longbow, 17 if using a composite longbow). So unless Haley uses a Longbow or uses some sort of feat or magic item, Z outranges her.
Enlarge Spell, if Z has the capability to use it, only worsens that problem - it doubles the spells range, which gives long-range spells enormous range.

Feats and magic items that could allow Haley to hit Tarquins group are quite limited: Mostly Far Shot and Distance Arrows (since Haleys bow doesn't have a Distance-enchantment). Now a good archer should keep some Distance Arrows handy, but even those would only put her Shortbow into the same category as a Longbow (worse actually).
Arrows of Flight are another option (and since the base cost of arrows is low, Haleys magic distant arrows might as well be some if she has them) would help further, bringing her composite shortbow range to 1425 feet, which would require a caster level of 25 to outrange, or a caster level of 8 when using Enlarged Spells.

Shortbows generally plain suck, so i'd say that Haley actually uses a Composite Shortbow, but that means she's still outranged by a good margin. She shouldn't have proficiency with a Longbow, so we can rule out that she uses one (V ironically could use one).

Bottom line:
If Haley uses magic and/or special arrows, she can hit Tarquins group. Even if Haley can hit Tarquins group, the damage would be negligible (and easily healed by the Cleric), and Z can potentially resort to Enlarged Spells.

[Irbis]

Though... Why Tarquin didn't let Drizzti scribe a few potent spells? The use of metamagicked ones is completely pointless unless the caster in question has no good high level spells at all. Also, this kind of blanket carpet bombing with weak spells kind of makes me doubt Tarquin's leadership skills. Especially seeing he didn't wrestle command from his son yet.

EDIT:

Not really, if we stick to D&D-rules and Haley uses a shorbow.

Haley has been using longbows the whole comic, at least if we go by her feat choice?

[Serafina]

Really? Any evidence for that (art would be very dubious)? It's of course possible that she took Weapon Proficiency: Longbow, but Rogues are normally incapable of using Longbows due to not getting proficiency with them. And for short-range work using Sneak-Attack (which Haley usually does), Shortbows are perfectly sufficient.


Also, what's wrong with carpet-bombing using weak spells? Who says that his tactic is outright killing the whole group?

[Sriad]

Also, what's wrong with carpet-bombing using weak spells? Who says that his tactic is outright killing the whole group?

The objection is that Vitriolic Sphere really isn't a particularly weak spell. It's level 5, with Empower boosting it to 7. The good part about VS though is that it's initial damage (15d4) can't be reduced by saves.

[Simon_Jester]

Though... Why Tarquin didn't let Drizzti scribe a few potent spells? The use of metamagicked ones is completely pointless unless the caster in question has no good high level spells at all. Also, this kind of blanket carpet bombing with weak spells kind of makes me doubt Tarquin's leadership skills. Especially seeing he didn't wrestle command from his son yet.

The carpet bombing may be a softening-up tactic: rather than charge into close quarters, they peel a number of hit points off people before closing in?

Also, they may not know who else is in that pyramid, and may be trying to eliminate any low-level allies in the area before closing in for a decisive fight.

[Imperial Overlord]

Though... Why Tarquin didn't let Drizzti scribe a few potent spells? The use of metamagicked ones is completely pointless unless the caster in question has no good high level spells at all.

With the right feats/magic items (metamagic rods, I choose you) they won't necessarily require higher level spells slots.

Also, this kind of blanket carpet bombing with weak spells kind of makes me doubt Tarquin's leadership skills. Especially seeing he didn't wrestle command from his son yet.

It's far too early to backstab Nale. The dramatically appropriate moment for evil to start infighting is when the spoils are almost in hand and this is Tarquin we are talking about. Tarquin has brought along a CoDzilla that will never take Nale's side, so that fight is one that is pretty much in the bag, as far as Tarquin is concerned. Having Nale and his close allies expend resources now is to Tarquin's advantage.

[Irbis]

Really? Any evidence for that (art would be very dubious)? It's of course possible that she took Weapon Proficiency: Longbow, but Rogues are normally incapable of using Longbows due to not getting proficiency with them. And for short-range work using Sneak-Attack (which Haley usually does), Shortbows are perfectly sufficient.

Evidence? How about Haley's own words?

Also, what's wrong with carpet-bombing using weak spells? Who says that his tactic is outright killing the whole group?

The thing is, Empower spell makes spell strength rise linearly, while just taking 2 level higher spell makes growth quadratic. It's just vastly inefficient. For comparison:

Empowered Vitriolic Sphere - 56,25 damage on average in 10 foot radius, hitting about 2-3 targets, level 7 spell.

Chain Lightning - 70 damage on average, hits up to 15 (Drizzti's level) targets 30 foot apart, while being level 6, much better at clearing rooms from medium to low level enemies, and most importantly, not bathing evidence/clues Tarquin needs in acid.

The carpet bombing may be a softening-up tactic: rather than charge into close quarters, they peel a number of hit points off people before closing in?

Also, they may not know who else is in that pyramid, and may be trying to eliminate any low-level allies in the area before closing in for a decisive fight.

By the power level OotS is currently in, VS is barely a sting to that group level PCs. Wasting very high level spell on something a PC can cure with a simple gulp from healing item only irritates PCs and makes them much more dangerous.

As for low level allies, and destroying evidence, see above. We know Drizzti has scrying spells, if Tarquin charges in blindly with weak spells using high level slots he is far dumber than I expected.

It's far too early to backstab Nale. The dramatically appropriate moment for evil to start infighting is when the spoils are almost in hand and this is Tarquin we are talking about. Tarquin has brought along a CoDzilla that will never take Nale's side, so that fight is one that is pretty much in the bag, as far as Tarquin is concerned. Having Nale and his close allies expend resources now is to Tarquin's advantage.

I don't mean backstabbing him, I mean using that informed ability of his (command acumen) to win this battle instead of letting Nale lose yet another fight. But I guess we'll see how it progresses.

[Serafina]

Evidence? How about Haley's own words?

Ah. She used a feat for it then (in which case she might as well have picked a better exotic bow, such as a Greatbow) or has a single level in fighter (the more sensible option compared to spending a feat on Martial Weapon Proficiency: Longbow).
The former would be crappy optimization, but that's common in OotS. The latter seems unlikely for Haley.


As for the damage-Metamagic: Your arguments are perfectly valid, but only apply when you don't have effects that reduce the cost of metamagic.

[Irbis]

Ah. She used a feat for it then (in which case she might as well have picked a better exotic bow, such as a Greatbow) or has a single level in fighter (the more sensible option compared to spending a feat on Martial Weapon Proficiency: Longbow).
The former would be crappy optimization, but that's common in OotS. The latter seems unlikely for Haley.

Well, probably.

As for the damage-Metamagic: Your arguments are perfectly valid, but only apply when you don't have effects that reduce the cost of metamagic.

I have played 22 level Wizard in a few month long campaign. I spent hours trying to do anything with my level 1-7 spell slots, as my PC was metamagic-themed, but despite having prestige class that lowered all metamagic costs (to a minimum of 1) I was never able to make any low level spell match his higher level equivalents, so I eventually gave up and only used it to boost spells that had no equivalents or when I needed some particular effect only found in low level spell.

Believe me, unless I missed something big, I came to conclusion metamagic is only worth it when it's somehow free, but it's only 'worth it' in the same way as exploiting to grant fighter free attacks or cleric extra turnings, that is, broken/illegal.

[Dark Hellion]

The fact that you couldn't make low-level spells work is much more because you were an Epic level wizard and really should have just broken the game in half on accident within the first 5 minutes of play because that is what Epic magic does.

There a huge number of low-level spells that combine very well with metamagic. Besides the alter self/polymorph/shapechange line which combines really well with extend there is persist which combines with nearly any buff to really makes spell economy go far (and can be easily gotten for free with metamagic effect of incantatrix or Divine Metamagic [although both kinda break the game]). Quicken is excellent for numerous low-level buffs like Energy Immunity, Freedom of Movement, Heart of X, Bite of X, etc. Heighten spell is useful for Shadowcaster mage to emulate higher level evocations and conjurations with Silent Image. Chain Spell works really well with buffs like Greater Magic Weapon, Greater Mighty Wallop, and Magic Vestment.

Metamagic is blatantly broken if used in anything approaching an intelligent manner. In fact, one of the jokes of OotS is that V tended to use his magic as a bludgeon in the earlier strips and after his whole evilness thing has begun to use spells in a much smarter and more powerful capacity as battlefield control, action economy abuse, etc.

[Imperial Overlord]

I don't mean backstabbing him, I mean using that informed ability of his (command acumen) to win this battle instead of letting Nale lose yet another fight. But I guess we'll see how it progresses.

Nale hasn't lost it yet. Hell he has the upper hand, for the moment. And right now it's Nale's wizard ally that is blowing through his spells. Attempting to take leadership from Nale would likely shatter the Linear Guild at this moment. Letting the battle unfold is the superior option.

[Zanfib]

Tarquin has brought along a CoDzilla

Pun intended?

[Crazedwraith]

Update is up, Mang. V's never getting rescued.

As to the kobold; another one bites the dust.

[Elessar]

Roy's assumptions about V make perfect sense. Unfortunately, they're wrong and his team's about to get reamed for it. I wonder if Roy's going to take the magic carpet into the skies.

I'm going to assume that Tarquin's going to take prisoners, with a straggler or two like Haley getting away.

[Solauren]

Better option: The Linear Guild captures the Order of the Stick, and V has to rescue them, kinda of redeminer Vself a bit in the process.