Alexander the Great Vs. the Wheel of Time.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-07-14 09:15pm

HemlockGrey wrote:Sorry, but every major general in the southern states is an idiot; there are no examples of Mat-like officers in the early books

Actually, the Great Captains (which Mat is now counted one) are Davarm Bashere, Agelmar Jahgad, Pedron Nial, Gareth Bryne and that one Taraboner whose name escapes me. Any one of those is very much a match for Matrim Cauthon. Don't dismiss the leadership just because it make it easier for you.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-07-14 09:21pm

The Book does note that most nations, exluding Cairhein, Altara, Arad Doman, and the Borderlands do field a standing army owing alliegance to the throne. However, it also notes that these formations are never larger than five or six thousand men.

Actually, at need (which is most of the time) the Borderlands can feild armies into the low tens of thousands. If the Blight Border is quiet they can actually field armies into the hundreds of thousands when combined.

Before you say they're a rabble, remember that each and every one of this has been called up and fought on a nearly annual basis. Every Borderland male is a soldier by necessity.

Also, they'll be much better armed and armored than southern nation's armies. From what we see of the Borderlands in New Spring that even part time soldiers generally have mail and such. If only from inheiritance.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-07-14 09:57pm

Yes, the Borderlands are highly militarized, but they can only field 50,000 each, after stripping their borders. Since they will be the last nations Alexander faces, he will have have a considerable base to draw upon to fight them.

About the Aes Sedai; what's to preclude an alliance between Alexander and they? Alexander should be able to prove that he isn't a channeler, and any attempts to gentle him will fail, and if he takes an Aes Sedai advisor and grants Tar Valon autonomy, why would they oppose him?

Further, Rand built up an army capable of fighting and beating the Seanchan within a year. Alexander could do the same, if he has the resources. Remember, the Seanchan didn't, 'historically' arrive in Randland and conquer the continent in a week. They conquered Arad Doman and Tar Valon, and then stopped for some time, conquered Amadicia, stopped for some, conquered Ebou Dar, and then stopped again.

Kerneth · Post by **Kerneth** » 2003-07-14 10:11pm

The Seanchan never conquered Tar Valon :p

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-07-14 10:29pm

Grr. Tarabon, not Tar Valon...

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-07-15 12:09am

HemlockGrey wrote:Yes, the Borderlands are highly militarized, but they can only field 50,000 each, after stripping their borders. Since they will be the last nations Alexander faces, he will have have a considerable base to draw upon to fight them.

That's if they just sit back and let things got to hell. Depending on how they veiw Alexander they might well engage in the fight much sooner. They wouldn't just sit back and wait for Alexander to come to them if they fougt.

And if they each field 50,000 highly discplined, equipped and experienced troops under leader like Jaghed and Bashere then they stand a very, very good chance of winning.

HemlockGrey wrote:About the Aes Sedai; what's to preclude an alliance between Alexander and they? Alexander should be able to prove that he isn't a channeler, and any attempts to gentle him will fail, and if he takes an Aes Sedai advisor and grants Tar Valon autonomy, why would they oppose him?

Nothing save paranioa. Remember, there Reds that wanted to gentle Rand, Perrin and Mat just to be sure. And that's before they knew Rand could channel. They'd never, ever trust Alexander.

Hell, he'd be lucky not to be murdered straight out.

HemlockGrey wrote:Further, Rand built up an army capable of fighting and beating the Seanchan within a year. Alexander could do the same, if he has the resources. Remember, the Seanchan didn't, 'historically' arrive in Randland and conquer the continent in a week. They conquered Arad Doman and Tar Valon, and then stopped for some time, conquered Amadicia, stopped for some, conquered Ebou Dar, and then stopped again.

Two big problems with that scenario:

1) Rand's army stopped them by mostly shock value. They had gotten slack not facing channelers. That's changed thanks to Rand's intervention. Now there's every reason to believe them when they say they can take the Asha'man.

And with out the Toman Head debacle they'll sweep through Randland even faster than they did "historically". No Darkfriend High Lady to hold them back and no need to overcome the defeat.

Not to mention a single battle at the hands of the Seachan is likely to obliterate Alexander's army. Channelers are a bitch.

2) Alexander has no way of recruiting or training the Asha'man. Neither Rand or Mazrim Taim (assuming he is who he claims to be) is going to bend knee to Alexander, who is neither the Dragon nor can channel. That's going to mean no trained, capable male channelers. And the female channlers capable of fighting are all under the control of other groups.

D.Turtle · Post by **D.Turtle** » 2003-07-15 05:34am

Further, Rand built up an army capable of fighting and beating the Seanchan within a year.

He built this army by training Ashaman.

Alexander has no way of doing this as quickly as would be required. Even if he had help from Taim, he couldn't do it as he doesn't have access to Travelling, which is needed to find enough men with the ability to channel.

Also: The first invasion of the Seanchan forces was only stopped by using the Horn of Valere - thereby calling a force of immune (to Seanchan) forces that ripped the Seanchan forces.

If they hadn't been stopped at Falme, they would have quickly continued conquering more of Randland.

However: Even despite of being defeated and large parts of their forces being destroyed by the Heroes of the Horn, they still conquered large parts of Randland with ease.

You still haven't explained how Alexander could secure the entirety of Randland, train casters, get his forces into position etc within one year.

Oddity · Post by **Oddity** » 2003-07-15 12:39pm

HemlockGrey wrote:Yadda, yadda, yadda...

I was thinking of retyping my reply from yesterday, but why bother? You steadfastly refuse to accept the books as they are and in stead use the dishonest debating tactic of altering the WoT world as you see fit. Alexander the Great may be able to conquer this world of idiots you have conjured up, but it isn't the WoT world. You have changed the rules of WoT to the point where there can't possibly be any other outcome than a Macedonian victory - in other words it's a wank-off feast.

Moreover, you actually ask me for proof of Mat's 'genius'. Ignoring the obvious problem, genius isn't exactly a quantifiable resource. No matter what kind of proof I give, you can simply say: "That's not enough."

So here's the deal: If you won't accept the books as they are, then I won't accept your assertions of what Alexander can and cannot do. That should be fair I think. Particularly since the Persian High Command was no master of coordinated strategy, and Darius wasn't exactly the worthiest of opponents. If the Persians had adopted a scorched-earth policy like someone suggested (forget his name), Alexander's army would have been buttfucked.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-07-16 12:59pm

That's if they just sit back and let things got to hell. Depending on how they veiw Alexander they might well engage in the fight much sooner. They wouldn't just sit back and wait for Alexander to come to them if they fougt.

And if they each field 50,000 highly discplined, equipped and experienced troops under leader like Jaghed and Bashere then they stand a very, very good chance of winning.

They only abandoned their borders late in the series, after Rand had run amok, the Aiel had crossed the mountains, and the Seanchan had ripped up the west. It'll take a helluva lot of pressure to draw them out; they'll have to be directly threatened.

Further, Alexander enters WoT with 47K highly disciplined, equipped, and experienced troops under one of the greatest generals who ever lived, in all of recorded military history. And there's still the problem that the Borderlanders suffer from an extreme lack of light infantry and light cavalry- the heavy infantry problem can be solved by dismounting lancers, but the other two...not so much.

Nothing save paranioa. Remember, there Reds that wanted to gentle Rand, Perrin and Mat just to be sure. And that's before they knew Rand could channel. They'd never, ever trust Alexander.

Hell, he'd be lucky not to be murdered straight out.

They didn't accomplish jack vs Hawkwing, and he was trying to annhilate them straight out. Remember that any attempt to gentle Alexander would fail. Further, they've lent support to certain leaders in the past, if they took an Aes Sedai advisor. If Alexander takes one, increases Tar Valon's lands and incomes to what it used to be, and grants them autonomy, they would have nothing to be paranoid about, especially after they attempt to gentle him and fail.

And he couldn't be murdered, either.

The only reason he really needs the Aes Sedai is to fight the Seanchan- a losing proposition, at best. He could simply leave them shut up in their tower.

Two big problems with that scenario:

-snip-

Fighting off the Seanchan is a losing proposition, true. However, the scenario is really Alexander vs Randland. Pulling in the Seanchan, while 'historically' accurate, basically admits that it would take a massively powerful outside force to stop his invasion.

-snip Ivan's whiny crap-

Spare me your sorrow and your tears, blowhard. WoT armies are commanded by the nobility, which almost universally favors the charge as the only acceptable tactic. It says it in the damn books. Accept it or kill yourself.

The Aiel are made up of unarmored shortspear-wielders, period. Such a force would be slaughtered en masse by a wall of moving longspears, because it fights as a unit, and not as individuals, and it has a massive reach advantage. Accept it, or kill yourself.

Your wannabe bitchslap is laughable. Mat's 'genius' is organizing logistics as well as any Asiatic prince of the time period and actually using his troops intelligently. That's better than most, but not terribly impressive, since Darius was capable of the exact same thing.

Further, the only army in WoT that uses a combined-arms army, that even approaches a combined-arms army, is the Band. The Band is the only thing that would not be swept away instantly by Alexander's advance, and it still lacks heavy cavalry, and it's outnumbered 5-1. Accept it, or kill yourself.

If you're still submerged in the depths of denial, there's always the latter option open to you. Partake of it if you will.

D.Turtle · Post by **D.Turtle** » 2003-07-16 01:13pm

Fighting off the Seanchan is a losing proposition, true. However, the scenario is really Alexander vs Randland. Pulling in the Seanchan, while 'historically' accurate, basically admits that it would take a massively powerful outside force to stop his invasion.

Then do the following:

Concede that Alexander cant defeat the entirety of WoT.

Concede that Alexander can't defeat Randland once Ashaman start appearing (and the countries start organizing).

Concede that Alexander can't defeat Seanchan.

Then, and only then can we possibly debate if Alexander could defeat Randland (with no Seanchan interference).

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-07-16 09:55pm

Alexander cannot defeat armies of sorcerors, no, not unless he has sorcerors of his own.

D.Turtle · Post by **D.Turtle** » 2003-07-17 06:13pm

Then one more thing:

Is the debate supposed to be if Alexander can defeat Randland militarily using only his troops in the beginning, or if he can conquer Randland over time (with the help of conquered countries, alliances, political maneuvering, etc.) - as was the case in the invasion of Seanchan (by Hawkwing's son)?

This is simply so that we debate the same thing, and do not use strategies, tactics, examples that do not fit your scenario or the scenario that I am thinking of.

BTW, I was thinking more of the first scenario.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-07-17 08:57pm

Hemlock:

Borderlanders

The Borderlanders won't need to strip their border to the degree they would have should they decide to face Alexander. That alone will make it easier for them to decide to take up the campaign. They'd need no more than a hundred thousand to seriously outnumber Alexander.

They have the troops to do it. And yes, they have light infantry, heavy infantry, and light cavalry in addition to heavy cavalry. In fact Saladeans are supposed to be the best light cavalry with Shenierans as the best heavy. And the infantry are mentioned, just not shown at the length the calavry is. The Tarwin's Gap interlude alone showns they have infantry and in quantity.

As to the quality and discipline, they've had constant warfare for the last three and a half millenia. They've not been pushed back save Malkier. That alone says all that's needed about the quality of their armies and their experience.

Aes Sedai

Of course they can't sever/gentle/still Alexander. But that's not going to stop their paranoia. They'll still be thinking of him in that context reflexively. Remeber what certain factions wanted to do with Mat and Perrin: kill them to be sure. Hell, some want to gentle Rand for that matter. Killing Alexander is not beyond their motives and means. They certainly wouldn't consort with him. The demigod thing of this scenario would assure that.

As to killing him, that's not that hard. A warder with a fancloth cape could do the job. The only reason Hawkwing wasn't murdered was his status as the second most powerful ta'averan in history. Without that sort of protection Alexander is dead.

Seanchan

No, it's saying there is a force waiting in the wings that can with out any doubt at all finish of Alexander. A force poised to strike at him very shortly indeed. Sure they might not be native Randlanders, but they pop up right at the beginning and have the motive to intervene so it's not a cop to discuss them.

National Armies

Most suck, I'll agree. But Illian, Andor and Tear all have standing forces composed of proffesional soldiers as opposed to those noble jackasses. In the case of the Companions and the Queen's Guard both are proffesional forces completely untouched by nobles save the supreme monarch. They are proffesional, disciplined and trained. Not necessarily on a par with Alexander's forces but not push overs either. The Defenders are subject to the High Lords but are likewise professional and disciplined and are not subject to the foolishness of the Tarien nobles.

For that matter Cairhairen has a lot of good troops, they just are not kept as a standing forces. Thankfully the nobles seem to charge and die while leaving the real soldiers to fight.

Some of the Children of the Light are pretty good as well. Bornhald's forces are pretty damn good.

Aiel

You wish to blatantly disregard canon. Concesion accepted on that score.

We know the Aiel shouldn't and wouldn't be able to do what they did in the real world. But simply repeating that and ignoring canon isn't much the point if you're going to debate the Wheel of Time universe now is it?

The Band

We don't have Mat's tactics described so saying he's no good flies in the face of what we're told. But it does make the situation hard to judge.

Still, numbers and support alone tell. The Band of the Red Hand would go down fighting even if they have the proper tactics.