Wakanda Forever! (No Spoilers for a Week, please)

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Wakanda Forever! (No Spoilers for a Week, please)

Post by LadyTevar »

For a movie that starts out with a funeral for Chadwick, this turned into everything we hoped it would be.

The Acting by those left behind is deep and powerful. There should be Oscars here dammit. The Director and Writers did a damn fine job imho.

The Visuals of Wakanda are again breath-taking, and then we see Namor's Realm (which I can't spell. Talokan?) It has the same grandeur and beauty of our first view of Wakanda, years ago.

The Costumes. In the End Credits the first person listed for Meso-American Culture and for African Culture are BOTH PhDs. Black Panther won an Oscar for Costuming last time. If Wakanda Forever doesn't win for the Meso-American stuff, We Should Riot.

This was Epic, Gorgeous, Glorious, and Everything I Wanted It To Be.

Two thumbs up.
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Re: Wakanda Forever! (No Spoilers for a Week, please)

Post by Broomstick »

I am so glad that the sequel lived up to the promise of the first.

Although I'll probably have to wait until it comes out on Disney+ to see it myself. Going to have fun avoiding the spoilers!
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Re: Wakanda Forever! (No Spoilers for a Week, please)

Post by LadyTevar »

Broomstick wrote: 2022-11-12 04:24am I am so glad that the sequel lived up to the promise of the first.

Although I'll probably have to wait until it comes out on Disney+ to see it myself. Going to have fun avoiding the spoilers!
I got talked into the $15 3D last show of the day.
But at our age we might be able to do the 2d Senior Matinee ;) It was very much worth seeing Full Screen, due to all that's going on in City Scenes and battle scenes.
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Re: Wakanda Forever! (No Spoilers for a Week, please)

Post by Gandalf »

All of my thoughts on the film are spoilery, so I guess I'll be back in a week.

Fun film though.
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Re: Wakanda Forever! (No Spoilers for a Week, please)

Post by Crazedwraith »

Gandalf wrote: 2022-11-12 08:35pm All of my thoughts on the film are spoilery, so I guess I'll be back in a week.

Fun film though.
QFT.

Saw it last night, like it, didn't realise how long it was until it was over and I check the clock which is a plus.

I imagine others will see plenty of subtext and thematical stuff I missed as usual.
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Re: Wakanda Forever! (No Spoilers for a Week, please)

Post by LadyTevar »

Crazedwraith wrote: 2022-11-15 12:40pm QFT.

Saw it last night, like it, didn't realise how long it was until it was over and I check the clock which is a plus.

I imagine others will see plenty of subtext and thematical stuff I missed as usual.
When you are so truly invested in a movie you don't recognize time passing, I consider it a Good Movie.

As for themes, a critic said the themes were Grief and Revenge. It certainly hit the Grief, and how that leads to a desire for Vengeance. We see that most clearly with Shuri, who was not dealing well with T'Challa's loss and her belief she 'failed him'.

I'll go more into what I read of her mindset later, as some of it is reaction to SPOILERS.
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Re: Wakanda Forever! (No Spoilers for a Week, please)

Post by Crazedwraith »

Over a week now so some spoilery thoughts. Not in any particular well formatted or constructed way. I suck at reviews. On both cases, Ye have been warned.

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So we start off with T'Challa's death off screen on an unknown disease he didn't tell anyone about until it was too late. With Shuri too occupied trying to synthesise more Heart Shape Herb to say goodbye to him on his deathbed which obviously has heavy overtones of reality and a necessity given Chadwick Boseman's actual death.

Queen Mother Ramonda becomes ruler of Wakanda after T'Challa's death which is not how monarchies usually work but given what we see in the first film if she declares she's queen and no-one wants to challenge her I guess she gets it?

Angela Basset and Letitia Wright are basically the main characters here with Ramonda being more prominent earlier and Shuri being more prominent later. The only things I'd heard about this film going in was Namor and Riri Williams being part of it and that while good it had obviously been written for Boseman and not had enough time to rework it.

I both see that and not see it. Shuri's arc in the film that she's lost in grief and self-blame at the death of T'Challa and this is leading her to reject the ways of her people and shelter in technology that feels like a decent arc. But her whole vengenance yay or nay bit feels very concentrated at the end without much build up and the issue of needing a new Black Panther only comes up at the start and end as well.

In the middle, Shuri seems much calmer much less grief stricken and more just wholesome and compassionate towards everyone and just having a scientific curiosity toward Namor, his history and his culture. It feels very possible those scenes were much the same in original draft with Boseman and Shuri being kidnapped and going to Namor's city was much the same.

Basset gives a great performance as Ramonda and the scene were she chews out and fires Okoye is powerful.

I've not read any Ironheart comics to be fair so I don't know how accurate to them Riri Williams depiction was. I liked her but I felt she was both under and overused? I think more characterisation and more compare/contrast with Shuri as young genius black women from very opposing backgrounds would have been good. One the overused side... she had two fully fledged iron man suits already and uses them in the movie. And the suits themselves, they don't to me have the same realness as Tony's (?) that was just something off about them I can't even describe it. That they had her fight in the final battle no problem as an unexperienced teenager feels off as well.

Speaking of underused. Ross and Val and Richard Schiff's US Secretary of State. It sets up where sequels may go (U.S.A V Wakanda?) and finally tells who Val is (CIA Director) which seems a bit underwhelming. Schiff is described as 'special guest star' which is weird thing for a movie but implies he'll have bigger parts in MCU to come. The Val revelation and Namor being about are about the only impacts to the MCU at large.

As to Namor, I have no strong feelings one way or another.

Oh and I applaud them to throwing Shuri into a fight with Namor and pulled no punches in violence towards her and didn't try and pull a designated girl fight was admirable. I have to wonder how plausible it is for her to walk off being impaled right through the stomach with a honking great spear though. Like a line about the suit having healing tech or her using one of the vibranium stones to plug herself up would have been nice and another to establish how come she can fight as well as her brother when previously she's stuck to the arm cannon.

To try and sum up I enjoyed it and found it very watchable but nearly a week later, there's not much that has stuck with me?
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Re: Wakanda Forever! (No Spoilers for a Week, please)

Post by Gandalf »

I wonder if it was intentional for one of the film's big themes to be POC set against each other while White power grows more menacing.

One thing that sort of bugged me was that the bit at the start with the mercenaries. Why weren't they explicitly some nations armed forces? I would assume it's because if they were a US (or other colonial power) special forces team acting realistically as villains, people would complain. A shame, but that's the MCU.
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Re: Wakanda Forever! (No Spoilers for a Week, please)

Post by LadyTevar »

Gandalf wrote: 2022-11-20 03:13pm I wonder if it was intentional for one of the film's big themes to be POC set against each other while White power grows more menacing.

One thing that sort of bugged me was that the bit at the start with the mercenaries. Why weren't they explicitly some nations armed forces? I would assume it's because if they were a US (or other colonial power) special forces team acting realistically as villains, people would complain. A shame, but that's the MCU.
They were mercs out of Plausible Deniability.
Now, these mercs MIGHT have been French "civilians", just as the US had "civilians" in certain South American countries. Civilians who did not wear anything IDing them as US military, but had all the skills, knowledge, and backing of the US military. Why? So the US Government could say with a perfectly straight face "no we did not have our Military in that region".

Think -- a peaceful scientific outpost that happens to be owned/staffed by Wakanda, gets attacked by what is very visibly another Nation's Armed Forces. Congrats, you just declared War on Wakanda.
You know, rather like the Japanese hitting Pearl Harbor with no warning? Or Russia's invasion of Ukraine? How'd that go for them?
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Re: Wakanda Forever! (No Spoilers for a Week, please)

Post by Gandalf »

LadyTevar wrote: 2022-11-20 05:08pmThey were mercs out of Plausible Deniability.
Now, these mercs MIGHT have been French "civilians", just as the US had "civilians" in certain South American countries. Civilians who did not wear anything IDing them as US military, but had all the skills, knowledge, and backing of the US military. Why? So the US Government could say with a perfectly straight face "no we did not have our Military in that region".

Think -- a peaceful scientific outpost that happens to be owned/staffed by Wakanda, gets attacked by what is very visibly another Nation's Armed Forces. Congrats, you just declared War on Wakanda.
No idea why they would care. The US has spent lot of this century openly drone striking, renditioning, and committing other horrors across the oil rich Middle East. They seem to be doing fine.
You know, rather like the Japanese hitting Pearl Harbor with no warning? Or Russia's invasion of Ukraine? How'd that go for them?
Different countries get different rules. That should be obvious by now. I don't recall a lot of people coming to Iraq's aid when the US and friends tore in there nearly twenty years ago. Wakanda is a big glowing prize, waiting for a lot of no bid contracts so people can get absurdly rich.
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Re: Wakanda Forever! (No Spoilers for a Week, please)

Post by LadyTevar »

Gandalf wrote: 2022-11-20 06:47pm
LadyTevar wrote: 2022-11-20 05:08pm
You know, rather like the Japanese hitting Pearl Harbor with no warning? Or Russia's invasion of Ukraine? How'd that go for them?
Different countries get different rules. That should be obvious by now. I don't recall a lot of people coming to Iraq's aid when the US and friends tore in there nearly twenty years ago. Wakanda is a big glowing prize, waiting for a lot of no bid contracts so people can get absurdly rich.
Iraq is a third-world country that couldn't fight back. You note NATO hasn't moved against Russia, a larger country that could cause a whole lot more damage to the allies?

Wakanda, while small, has cloaking devices, sonic weaponry, ships that fly at Mach speeds and seem far more maneuverable than US jet fighters, and their warriors are in Vibranium Armor that shrugs off bullets. The high tech-base means they punch harder than any other army in the world. Wakanda fought off Thanos' army while the Avengers tried to stop Thanos. Remember, Wakanda's Shield was withstanding ship-based weapon hits and shrugging them off. T'Challa was concerned about Thanos' army getting through if they encircled the city/shield and pressed from all sides, which is why he opened the chokepoint to funnel them into his chosen battleground. But his worry was based on the sheer number of Thanos' soldiers, all of them armed with Alien-Tech, overloading the Shield and forcing him to split his forces to deal with the break-throughs.

NATO might have the numbers to equal Thanos' army, but they do not have the Tech to damage the Shield. They do not have the ability to drop from orbit over Wakanda's main city with a thousand-man army. NATO's army can't just swim the river upstream from the ocean, they need forward bases, ammo dumps, landing strips. With Iraq, they had Turkey and Saudi Arabia where they could set up bases, because both those nations wanted to see Iraq suffer. I really don't see that level of cooperation from the nations around Wakanda.
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Re: Wakanda Forever! (No Spoilers for a Week, please)

Post by Gandalf »

You appear to be mixing up the battle at the end of Infinity War with the one at the end of Endgame.

Anyway, the shield around Wakanda's capital isn't wholly impressive. The alien cannon fodder could physically push through the shield, and some even survive to run at the waiting Wakandans. If it can sometimes just rip skin off those guys, it should be easy enough to get a tank or similar armoured vehicle through. Maybe a set of drones that go slow through the shield and then start bombarding the city in the name of "shock and awe."

Also, as per a small graphic in (I think) Civil War, Wakanda sits in East Africa, between or near Ethiopia, South Sudan, Uganda, and Kenya. To get the logistical help, all the US needs to do is turn up, offer someone nearby a mountain of "aid" in exchange for a a place to build a base and use it to strike the neighbour that let them go through colonialism. It becomes a prisoner's dilemma, because the advantage will go to whomever says yes first.
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Re: Wakanda Forever! (No Spoilers for a Week, please)

Post by ray245 »

Gandalf wrote: 2022-11-21 11:39pm You appear to be mixing up the battle at the end of Infinity War with the one at the end of Endgame.

Anyway, the shield around Wakanda's capital isn't wholly impressive. The alien cannon fodder could physically push through the shield, and some even survive to run at the waiting Wakandans. If it can sometimes just rip skin off those guys, it should be easy enough to get a tank or similar armoured vehicle through. Maybe a set of drones that go slow through the shield and then start bombarding the city in the name of "shock and awe."

Also, as per a small graphic in (I think) Civil War, Wakanda sits in East Africa, between or near Ethiopia, South Sudan, Uganda, and Kenya. To get the logistical help, all the US needs to do is turn up, offer someone nearby a mountain of "aid" in exchange for a a place to build a base and use it to strike the neighbour that let them go through colonialism. It becomes a prisoner's dilemma, because the advantage will go to whomever says yes first.
They can probably capture the US leadership easily. Cloaking technology, super-soldiers and etc seems to infiltrate places without much of an issue.
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Re: Wakanda Forever! (No Spoilers for a Week, please)

Post by Willson »

Unpopular opinion, The black panther should have got its second part streamed before Chadwick Boseman's death. However I still haven't watched Wakanda Forever yet, but after reading the spoilers, it seems promising and worth going to the cinema this weekend.
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Re: Wakanda Forever! (No Spoilers for a Week, please)

Post by LadyTevar »

Before we get too sidelined with "Wakanda vs US", let's talk more about what we DID see.

Shuri's visit to the Otherworld. Who she met was a HUGE shock, one that I should have seen coming tho. Both she and Killmonger arrive in the Otherworld inside the building where their parent died. They're not outside like T'Challa and his father, they do not meet the other Panthers. And, let's be honest, both Killmonger and Shuri had the same mindset when they took the Herb -- I need strength to complete my revenge. So, they were trapped inside the buildings that held the core of their pain, where they last saw their parent.

However, unlike Killmonger, Shuri had the ability to move beyond Revenge, which we see at the end.
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Re: Wakanda Forever! (No Spoilers for a Week, please)

Post by Willson »

Willson wrote: 2022-11-22 12:16pm Unpopular opinion, The black panther should have got its second part streamed before Chadwick Boseman's death. However I still haven't watched Wakanda Forever yet, but after reading the spoilers, it seems promising and worth going to the cinema this weekend.
UPDATE > It was worth it, the cinematography was amazing, and I enjoyed every single moment of it!
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Re: Wakanda Forever! (No Spoilers for a Week, please)

Post by Adam Reynolds »

Despite the fact that everything below is criticism, I did still like it overall. It is just that most of this is related to deeper worldbuilding problems I have been thinking about for some of my own ideas.

1)
Did the Wakandan military have an actual escape plan after Shuri captured Namor other than to hope that their ship would survive long enough to escape? After all of the damage done to their capital did they not think that the Talokans would have have explosives that could damage their ship despite their sonic weapons?

From a Doylist sense I get why they wanted to make Shuri's fight more important, but if you contrast this with an example like Return of the Jedi, the Rebel attack on the Death Star and down on Endor didn't need to lose so that Luke's choice was more significant. It actually makes her come across as a bad leader as much as it makes her awesome.

2)
Another deeper thing that bugs me in this movie(and much of the rest of the MCU), as well as other similar examples like Dune, is that it fundamentally misses the point of ranged weapons like guns as well as the whole basic concept of how weapon systems become obsolete.

Weapon obsolescence can only come from a technology that can do the same job as before in a more effective fashion. Swords survived until the mid-19th century because guns were not yet fully effective as a close combat weapon until the advent of the multi-shot revolver, at which point they quickly began replacing swords as a sidearm because they could do the same job over a larger area. Spears meanwhile were replaced as soon as the bayonet could be fixed to the end of a rifle, because it could largely do the same job while also serving the more important one as a ranged weapon. On the flip side, battleships survived until the capital ship role could be fully absorbed by aircraft carriers towards the end of WW2 when they could also engage targets at night. Submarines and torpedo boats didn't do anything to make them obsolete, they just lead to other countermeasures in the form of destroyers. For a more modern example, guided anti-aircraft missiles lead to countermeasures in the form of dedicated air defense suppression aircraft and missions(as well as eventually stealth) rather than everyone saying that airplanes are now just obsolete against modern missiles and so we should just revert to ground based artillery(and Ukraine is not actually a counterexample). So for guns to be obsolete, you'd actually need a better ranged weapon rather than shields or armor.

This then leads to the more specific issue, which is a lack of understanding of the point of guns. Guns aren't effective because they are more deadly than swords or spears, they are more effective because they cover a larger area. If you have a target on the other side of a room and you have a sword you have to close the distance. If you have a gun you can immediately shoot the person. Even the general superiority of spears over swords is also a reflection of the importance of covering a wider area, both because spears naturally cover a larger area and because they can be thrown. Likewise explosives or guided weapons are often more effective than simple kinetic firearms, but they can't currently replace guns because they are not as useful at the individual scale(mainly because of portability).

Combining these two issues we see that energy shields or impenetrable armor don't really affect this problem of area control and so would not simply lead to guns being discarded in favor of swords or spears. They would instead lead to countermeasures that still allow ranged weapons to be effective, like the use of higher momentum perhaps gyrojet rounds, or the use of high heat thermobaric grenades from a grenade launcher that suffocate a target behind their shield. Or for that matter, if nothing else works, flamethrowers might make a comeback. It is also then odd that Wakandans never developed proper ranged weapons themselves with or without the use of gunpowder. Nor could vibranium actually make guns obsolete. Iron Man or Ironheart would actually be a better candidate for making guns obsolete, as they can arguably do the job better with a mix of computer assisted aim for arm mounted energy weapons and missiles.
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Re: Wakanda Forever! (No Spoilers for a Week, please)

Post by madd0c0t0r2 »

Combining these two issues we see that energy shields or impenetrable armor don't really affect this problem of area control and so would not simply lead to guns being discarded in favor of swords or spears. They would instead lead to countermeasures that still allow ranged weapons to be effective, like the use of higher momentum perhaps gyrojet rounds, or the use of high heat thermobaric grenades from a grenade launcher that suffocate a target behind their shield. Or for that matter, if nothing else works, flamethrowers might make a comeback.
This argument hinges on how energy shields work, and that hot lead bullets are stopped by the shield, but not hot gas, or higher momentum bullets. If you can see through the shield, there might be an argument for visible wavelength lasers also being able to penetrate them.

BUT Don't we see, at the very least, that the spears are also powerful sonic (ranged) weapons? (that can be deployed by several ranks behind the shield bearers without risking blue on blue? Sure it's a classic square formation, but they were under a shield that blocked incoming artillery)

https://youtu.be/xTGRfmls6HY?t=57
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