Ant Man and the Wasp (spoilers)

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Ant Man and the Wasp (spoilers)

Post by Civil War Man » 2018-07-09 12:27pm

I didn't see any threads about this yet, which is strange since there's usually one several days before I see it.

Overall, I found it to be a pretty thoroughly average MCU movie, which isn't quite as damning as it sounds since I consider the MCU to be by far the most consistently entertaining modern movie franchise out there, where even the worst ones rise to the level of watchable.

The basic premise, established from the very opening of the movie, is that Scott returning from the quantum realm back in the first movie made Hank realize that Janet could still theoretically be alive, and so the driving force behind the plot is finding a way to locate her so they can try to bring her back. Scott's involvement in this is primarily that he's the means to locating Janet, since she managed to plant something in his brain when he was in the quantum realm.

As is typical with the MCU in general and Ant Man in particular, the movie leans pretty heavily on comedy, but that's not necessarily a bad thing since the MCU was getting pretty serious recently with Black Panther and Infinity War. I will say, though, without spoiling too much right out of the gate, that the mid-credits stinger at the end is a really huge tonal shift, which then swings right back into silly comedy in the after-credits scene.

Now, I'm not a big proponent of the "Marvel can't do good villains" meme, but I would not be ranking the ones here very high on the list of compelling villains. Ghost is about on the same level as Whiplash from Iron Man 2, right down to having a similar grudge against the main characters, while the greedy black marketeer is almost absurdly one-dimensional (though his involvement is responsible for one of the better running jokes of the movie).

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Re: Ant Man and the Wasp (spoilers)

Post by Steve » 2018-07-09 04:22pm

The lack of strong villains is alright with me, since the movie wasn't about the conflict so much as the theme of family. And Ghost's backstory and motivation even runs with this theme, and the outcome regarding her works.
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Re: Ant Man and the Wasp (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-07-11 05:43pm

I thought that Ghost was a perfectly fine villain. She had a motivation that made sense, and was sympathetic while still being dangerous and ultimately, well, villainous. And as Steve noted, it fits the theme of the film. Yeah, her goals are more small-scale, but not every villain has to have dreams of world domination.

Overall, I enjoyed the movie, especially the start. Later on, I felt it dragged a bit and sometimes got a little too over-the-top in some of the action sequences (as sequels often do), but I think that if you liked the first film, you'll probably like this one. I like that the film pretty much portrays Ant Man and Wasp as equals, even if Ant Man gets a bit more screen-time. And if you can suspend disbelief for a level of technobabble that would make a Voyager writer blush, its probably the most downright fun film I've seen yet this year.

Until you get to the after-credits scenes. I was expecting something like it, but it still sucks. Fuck you Thanos.* Also, fuck you SHIELDRA.

Overall, I'd give the film probably 6 or 6.5 out of 10, but I'll bump it up to 7 for Ant Man naming one of his ants Ulysses S GrANT. :D

*Despite the rather jarring shift to comedy with the giant musical ant, the second after-credits scene was arguably darker. That slow pan through the empty house gives you just long enough to start wondering where everybody went, and what happened to Ant Man's daughter? Did she turn to dust as well, and/or watch her family dissolve in front of her?

Well, they certainly are keeping the momentum going on building suspense for Infinity War II/Avengers IV.
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Re: Ant Man and the Wasp (spoilers)

Post by Gaidin » 2018-07-14 09:35am

I'm not sure I'd call Ghost a villain. So much as a victim of circumstance that happened to be acting in desperation in opposite direction of them and they were perfectly willing to help them once killing Janet was no longer on the table. In fact, Janet was the first person to help her, and they started working the science for her up to the Snappening and Lang got stranded.

The villain, if anything, would be Sonny Burch. He found out who Hope was, tried to use it against her, and then tried to steal the lab for whoever he was working for while they were on their timetable.

I loved this movie. It was a nice drop down from the seriousness of Infinity War. And I loved how it was concurrent, sort of a "Meanwhile...in San Francisco..."

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Re: Ant Man and the Wasp (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-07-14 12:55pm

I do kind of wonder why Ant Man and the Pyms were just working on their experiments while shit was going down in Wakanda. I mean, helping Ghost is a worthy goal, but you'd think Ant Man would have tried to get in touch with his Avengers friends once it became clear that the an alien invasion was going on. Even if news of the Wakanda attack was kept from the public, he had to have known about the attack on New York by then. It wasn't exactly low-profile.
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Re: Ant Man and the Wasp (spoilers)

Post by Gaidin » 2018-07-14 02:01pm

Be straight about how you read the characters in this movie. Really. This was a very personal movie.

The only one with any trust for any in that group is Lang. The Pyms have no use for Stark, and were hella derisive of Cap. And they had their priorities. They had a possibility of getting their damn family member out of the Quantum Realm after thirty years of being stuck there. Thanos is not exactly a real threat on their radar as they haven't exactly been read into anything resembling intelligence since the late nineties when Pym walked right out of SHIELD. Not that anybody on Avengers knew what Thanos was and what he was doing, that was pretty much an ambush. So when the Avengers are busy getting blindsided, the Pyms have no reason to stop what they're doing until it literally effects them. And they weren't exactly sitting down on the couch watching news about New York City, nor was news flying about Wakanda. The first time anything hit them sideways was when Thanos snapped his fingers. Until then, they were living and working under the radar to get their work done.

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Re: Ant Man and the Wasp (spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-07-14 02:08pm

Gaidin wrote:
2018-07-14 02:01pm
Be straight about how you read the characters in this movie. Really. This was a very personal movie.
I'm sorry if my comment somehow offended you, though I don't know why it would.
The only one with any trust for any in that group is Lang. The Pyms have no use for Stark, and were hella derisive of Cap. And they had their priorities. They had a possibility of getting their damn family member out of the Quantum Realm after thirty years of being stuck there. Thanos is not exactly a real threat on their radar as they haven't exactly been read into anything resembling intelligence since the late nineties when Pym walked right out of SHIELD. Not that anybody on Avengers knew what Thanos was and what he was doing, that was pretty much an ambush. So when the Avengers are busy getting blindsided, the Pyms have no reason to stop what they're doing until it literally effects them. And they weren't exactly sitting down on the couch watching news about New York City, nor was news flying about Wakanda. The first time anything hit them sideways was when Thanos snapped his fingers. Until then, they were living and working under the radar to get their work done.
I was talking about the after-credits scene, which took place some time after they had saved Janet. So, I absolutely get that saving Janet would matter more to them than helping the Avengers, but that's beside the point. As to them not being in the intelligence loop (and IIRC, Pym walked in '89), that might explain them not knowing about the Wakanda attack, since Wakanda is kind of isolated and the finger-snap happened very shortly after the Wakanda attack, but there's no way that the slug-fest in the middle of the streets of New York wouldn't have been all over the news for days or weeks before the battle of Wakanda.

The Pyms disliking Cap and Tony, yeah, that makes sense. But it just seems weird that in the after-credits scene, they're just going ahead with their experiments and seem to not even be aware that the world is being invaded by aliens.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Ant Man and the Wasp (spoilers)

Post by Gaidin » 2018-07-14 02:29pm

Let me put it this way. What'd I do on 9/11? Went to school. Did we actually do work? No. But about all we did was watch news. We still went from class to class. Someone as focused as Pym, probably still going to do his thing. In the space of a single day an alien attack on New York happens(again), he can bring a radio to where he's working and we can hear news reports in the background for ten seconds before they just do what they did. But Pym..."Yea, we can't get there in time to do any good so let's focus on Ava, <clicks radio off>."

And it really doesn't matter since they'd have to get on an airplane for a country that's probably grounding all flights anyway. "Hey can we get a ticket to NYC today...yea that NYC that's gotten attacked..." I'd love to see the look they get from across the counter. Nevermind Wakanda, if anything is really heard about that given the only real military worked there is Wakandan and anything known would be known to Militaries and Intelligence agencies and groups with technologies that could otherwise see what was happening on the ground(read: satellites looking down).

Does it effect Pym? No. You're reading a bit too much about how someone like Pym should be helping in this BECAUSE HE CAN. But can he even? His day just literally continues on.

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Re: Ant Man and the Wasp (spoilers)

Post by ray245 » 2018-07-14 04:31pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-07-14 02:08pm
Gaidin wrote:
2018-07-14 02:01pm
Be straight about how you read the characters in this movie. Really. This was a very personal movie.
I'm sorry if my comment somehow offended you, though I don't know why it would.
The only one with any trust for any in that group is Lang. The Pyms have no use for Stark, and were hella derisive of Cap. And they had their priorities. They had a possibility of getting their damn family member out of the Quantum Realm after thirty years of being stuck there. Thanos is not exactly a real threat on their radar as they haven't exactly been read into anything resembling intelligence since the late nineties when Pym walked right out of SHIELD. Not that anybody on Avengers knew what Thanos was and what he was doing, that was pretty much an ambush. So when the Avengers are busy getting blindsided, the Pyms have no reason to stop what they're doing until it literally effects them. And they weren't exactly sitting down on the couch watching news about New York City, nor was news flying about Wakanda. The first time anything hit them sideways was when Thanos snapped his fingers. Until then, they were living and working under the radar to get their work done.
I was talking about the after-credits scene, which took place some time after they had saved Janet. So, I absolutely get that saving Janet would matter more to them than helping the Avengers, but that's beside the point. As to them not being in the intelligence loop (and IIRC, Pym walked in '89), that might explain them not knowing about the Wakanda attack, since Wakanda is kind of isolated and the finger-snap happened very shortly after the Wakanda attack, but there's no way that the slug-fest in the middle of the streets of New York wouldn't have been all over the news for days or weeks before the battle of Wakanda.

The Pyms disliking Cap and Tony, yeah, that makes sense. But it just seems weird that in the after-credits scene, they're just going ahead with their experiments and seem to not even be aware that the world is being invaded by aliens.
I think you've underestimated just how quickly the fights were over. The battle over New York was so short that even the Avengers themselves barely had time to react. The battle in Wakanda is not something that's on national news ( seems like Wakanda has not fully revealed themselves to the world at this stage.) And it's not like the battle in Wakanda was something that took a long time either. The battle was over in less than half a day, so maybe a few hours at best? Maybe even lesser considering they were trying to extract Vision.

The rest of infinity war took place in outer space. So there's very little chance Ant-man and co are fully aware of the situation.
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Re: Ant Man and the Wasp (spoilers)

Post by LadyTevar » 2018-07-19 01:27pm

I had to leave the theater after the mid-credit scene. What happened in the End Credit? Was there one? There seems to be some confusion there.
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Re: Ant Man and the Wasp (spoilers)

Post by Civil War Man » 2018-07-19 01:49pm

It showed Scott Lang's house, completely empty, and you could see out the window that the streets were also deserted. It pans around the house for a few seconds, and then right before it cuts to black you see the giant ant that the Pyms programmed to follow Lang's routine playing the Rock Band drums.

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