Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

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The Romulan Republic
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Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-01-08 09:01pm

hunter5 wrote:There were two things that always suggested to me that many Wizards in Harry Potter are incompetent. In book two most of the school for some research feels that Harry is the heir of Slytherin only realizing how dumb that is after his muggle born best friend is attacked. Then we have in book 4 people who believe Rita Skeeter even the characters who have stated all her stories are lies.


I would point out that a significant percentage of the US populace honestly believes Barrack Obama is a Secret Muslim and that Hillary Clinton ran a pedophile pizza joint. Just saying.

Like others have said, wizards do not have a monopoly on staggering idiocy.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

Postby Simon_Jester » 2017-01-09 11:13am

hunter5 wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:So... Potterverse wizards are stupid because their schoolchildren are prone to believe nasty rumors about a fellow student, even if they don't normally trust the source?

Uh, I've got some bad news for you about the rest of humanity in real life, then, Hunter...
It isn't some much the people believing the story it is people who have declared the author a liar multiple times believing one of her stories.
Again, if you think people can't do that kind of an about-face and start believing a person they used to think was a liar, in the face of peer pressure and various circumstances...

You must be terribly disappointed by real life. I am sorry for you.

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Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

Postby hunter5 » 2017-01-10 07:52am

Simon_Jester wrote:
hunter5 wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:So... Potterverse wizards are stupid because their schoolchildren are prone to believe nasty rumors about a fellow student, even if they don't normally trust the source?

Uh, I've got some bad news for you about the rest of humanity in real life, then, Hunter...
It isn't some much the people believing the story it is people who have declared the author a liar multiple times believing one of her stories.
Again, if you think people can't do that kind of an about-face and start believing a person they used to think was a liar, in the face of peer pressure and various circumstances...

You must be terribly disappointed by real life. I am sorry for you.

Even when it is about people you know personally?

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Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

Postby Eternal_Freedom » 2017-01-10 08:48am

Except most of the students who turned on Harry didn't know him personally, only by reputation. Up until book 5 or so he basically only has Ron and Hermione as close friends, with Neville, Ginny and Fred/George on the fringes as friends but not close ones.
"I could be bounded in a nutshell and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams" - Hamlet

“I’ve always thought the Yankees had something to do with it.” - Confederate General George Pickett, on being asked why his charge at Ghettysburg failed

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.

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Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

Postby hunter5 » 2017-01-10 06:05pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:Except most of the students who turned on Harry didn't know him personally, only by reputation. Up until book 5 or so he basically only has Ron and Hermione as close friends, with Neville, Ginny and Fred/George on the fringes as friends but not close ones.
I was referring to Mrs Wesley beleving the article saying Harry and Hermonie where dating and Hermonie was two timing.

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Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

Postby Eternal_Freedom » 2017-01-10 06:08pm

Ah, I see. Still, even then, how well does Mrs Weasley really know Hermione by that point? A few days around her before the trio's 3rd year and maybe a couple weeks before 4th year. Not a huge amount of time, especially if she's been an avid reader of Rita Skeeter for years and trusts what she writes.

She knows Harry better, naturally, which is presumably why she blames Hermione and not him.
"I could be bounded in a nutshell and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams" - Hamlet

“I’ve always thought the Yankees had something to do with it.” - Confederate General George Pickett, on being asked why his charge at Ghettysburg failed

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.

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Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-01-10 11:44pm

I wonder if Mrs. Weasley's blaming Hermione was partly a result of latent cultural prejudices against Muggleborns.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

Postby Eternal_Freedom » 2017-01-11 08:24am

That may be part of it, plus the fact that the wizarding world seems to be about 50+ years behind the Muggle world socially, so blaming the woman may be a natural impulse as well.
"I could be bounded in a nutshell and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams" - Hamlet

“I’ve always thought the Yankees had something to do with it.” - Confederate General George Pickett, on being asked why his charge at Ghettysburg failed

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.

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Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

Postby Crazedwraith » 2017-01-11 08:28am

Or she blamed Hermione because Hermione was the one the article made out to be in the wrong? No more, no less.
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Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-01-11 04:54pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:That may be part of it, plus the fact that the wizarding world seems to be about 50+ years behind the Muggle world socially, so blaming the woman may be a natural impulse as well.


Now, this I think is incorrect.

The Wizarding World, or at least Wizarding Britain, is despotic and bigoted, but their's no real evidence that they care nearly as much about gender (or skin colour for that matter), and quite a bit of evidence that they don't. As I recall, the Pottermore article on the history of the past Ministers for Magic had a number of female Ministers, and going off the Fantastic Beasts film, Wizarding America had a black woman as its leader in the 1920s.

It may be a consequence of a society based on magic- all they really care about is magical ability, and magical heritage (due largely to the centuries-old division between Wizards and Muggles).

Though given the emphasis on pure blood heritage and continuing the family, it wouldn't surprise me if the older pure bloods thought women should stay home and make pure blood babies, either. But then, how does one explain Bellatrix Lestrange?
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

Postby Eternal_Freedom » 2017-01-11 05:26pm

Bellatrix was powerful, mad and useful to Voldemort, that probably got her a pass.
"I could be bounded in a nutshell and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams" - Hamlet

“I’ve always thought the Yankees had something to do with it.” - Confederate General George Pickett, on being asked why his charge at Ghettysburg failed

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.

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Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-01-11 05:27pm

That might be so, but at the same time, gender-based and racial discrimination seems to be less of an issue in the Wizarding World, or at least in Britain and America.

To be honest, I think this is a fan fiction brain bug, that the Wizards have to be regressive in every way the Muggle world was/is, just because they're regressive in certain ways.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

Postby Elheru Aran » 2017-01-11 05:29pm

There's always odd ducks, and Bellatrix is odd if nothing else. I suspect that in Muggle society, she'd have been just as likely to stand out.

I suspect 'continuing the family' is less of an issue when you can more or less just whip up a potion to *guarantee* conceiving, likely, and streamline pregnancy. And with magical medicine, surviving battles is less of a concern. So maintaining a stable family lineage probably isn't a problem as long as you find a willing spouse.

Part of the problem is that most of what we see of HP society is a short glimpse of the Weasleys and the Lovegoods. The Malfoys, when we see them, are in an extremely atypical situation (their home being set up as Death Eater Central). Everything else is either Hogwarts, an extremely structured and artificial situation, or the Ministry of Magic, a strongly bureaucratic situation. So we have pretty little to judge what society in the British wizarding world is like; the Daily Prophet articles that get quoted are perhaps useful, but only very broadly.

The Weasleys are probably about as typical as one can get, but they're still 'outsiders' to some degree as they're on the poorer end of society... something which doesn't matter to most people (though the kids are embarrassed about their poor quality robes and used books), but which the upper-class old-money Malfoys take casual advantage of to sneer at them.
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Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-01-11 05:32pm

The thing about Bellatrix is that, while she's not the stay at home type, she's still kind of an anti-feminist.

I mean... arguably the character's primary motivation is her utter, pathological devotion and loyalty to a powerful man who treats her like shit and is incapable of really giving a damn about her.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

Postby Elheru Aran » 2017-01-11 05:39pm

You're asking insanity to make sense. Doesn't work that way.
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Re: Was Dumbledore utterly incompetent?

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-01-11 05:52pm

Not at all. Of course it doesn't make sense. I'm just pointing out that Bellatrix's characterization is of a woman who is subordinate to an abusive man, if you're looking for signs of cultural sexism in the Harry Potter universe.

Of course, you could argue that this is true of a lot of the fanatic Death Eaters, regardless of gender. Though Bellatrix's loyalty arguably always seemed to have more of a sexual component Spoiler
(confirmed by Cursed Child).
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.