Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

[Simon_Jester]

The current status quo is that the Amazons rape and kill men to have kids and sell the male babies to slavers. I'm not joking. I have no fucking clue who thought this was a good idea.

That sounds like the wet dream of modern radical feminism. So maybe the current writer(s) belong to that group?

Just trust me on this one, no, and also take as a side note that you need to find a better source for what feminism is because you clearly do not know that.

[The Romulan Republic]

At least he said "modern radical feminism" rather than claiming all feminists think that way.

Still, I doubt their are more than a very small number of extremists who think anything close to that.

As for how the Amazons behave, I don't know who wrote it but I think that while its possible that the idea could have come from a rare extremist feminist who might think such a thing, given DC's track record, its more likely from a misogynist who's trying to parody what he thinks feminists believe or just some asshole who thinks grimdark=good writing in lieu of the creativity to come up with actual good writing.

[Elheru Aran]

Wonder Woman originated from the mind of a guy who, by all indications, was extremely into the kink scene, notably bondage and dom/sub play. Various takes upon the character have played with that for better or worse. For example, one thing about WW is that if you tie her up with her magic rope, she's powerless. You can imagine all the 'fun' that's been had with that through the past decades...

[The Romulan Republic]

That's the kind of stuff that a good reboot/adaptation should just quietly discard.

[Iroscato]

So am I to understand that overall the New 52 is a big pile of shite? Cuz just about everything I've heard from it sounds abominable.

I've been informed by my friends who do keep up with comics that New 52 is largely in the Star Wars Holiday Special territory. They sometimes show me the highlights, in the same manner one shares goatse, and I can't disagree.

Sweet merciful Christ

[Elheru Aran]

To give DC credit, they've had some reasonably good writers doing WW previously-- Greg Rucka and JMS, for two, Rucka's run being particularly praised IIRC. The character herself isn't so bad, it's the popular perceptions of her that create issues. It also doesn't help that the Amazon culture hasn't been particularly well written previously, existing as a side-note to the general WW storylines.

[The Romulan Republic]

To give DC credit, they've had some reasonably good writers doing WW previously-- Greg Rucka and JMS, for two, Rucka's run being particularly praised IIRC. The character herself isn't so bad, it's the popular perceptions of her that create issues. It also doesn't help that the Amazon culture hasn't been particularly well written previously, existing as a side-note to the general WW storylines.

To be fair, if you go back to the background for the Amazons (ancient Greek myths), you'd probably get a fair amount of hideous barbarism. Greek mythology, in my experience, tends to be both kinky and bloody.

It could be interesting to have someone from a pre-Roman society thrust into the modern world and having to deal with the differences they encounter. Provided there was a writer who wasn't an incompetent jackass, of course.

[Purple]

My only question is why the magical princess of an ancient Greek people is dressed up in the american flag.

[The Romulan Republic]

My only question is why the magical princess of an ancient Greek people is dressed up in the american flag.

Good point.

I suppose you could have the character eventually choose to identify with their new home over their old home, becoming an immigrant to America. However, that needs to be explained and justified, not taken for granted, and I'm not sure weather any version of Wonder Woman has done that.

In any case, the fucking flag swimsuit look is absurd. Glad they ditched it for this film.

[GuppyShark]

An American soldier washed up oj the beach and this caused WW to go forth as an ambassador. Wearing the flag was seen as honouring the country she was going to meet.

[Simon_Jester]

At least he said "modern radical feminism" rather than claiming all feminists think that way.

Still, I doubt their are more than a very small number of extremists who think anything close to that.

Honestly, I suspect that the males who actively fetishize women who think that way probably outnumber the women who think that way.

As for how the Amazons behave, I don't know who wrote it but I think that while its possible that the idea could have come from a rare extremist feminist who might think such a thing, given DC's track record, its more likely from a misogynist who's trying to parody what he thinks feminists believe or just some asshole who thinks grimdark=good writing in lieu of the creativity to come up with actual good writing.

Yes.

And, as noted, the core idea does come from at least some of the original Amazon myths- that the warrior women abduct males for reproductive purposes, and remove male infants from their society, although whether they do so by killing or selling into slavery or just abandoning in the woods varies depending on the source, I think.

That's the kind of stuff that a good reboot/adaptation should just quietly discard.

It has, by and large, so far as I know. At least the 'rendered powerless' bit. Thing is... Wonder Woman's magic lasso is still an unbreakable rope.

Honestly, think about it. You're a villain and you've just somehow subdued one of the strongest superheroines in the world. She's probably going to be conscious and coming after you again pretty soon because she's probably tough enough to laugh off getting hit with a truck. And she's carrying an unbreakable rope. Bondage doesn't even come into it. Whether it actually renders her powerless doesn't come into it. All those issues aside...

You'd be a moron NOT to tie her up with her own lasso. Because unless you specifically happen to be carrying Handcuffs For Superman (TM), the odds are it's the only thing in the room sturdy enough to slow her down much.

As to why they don't drop the lasso altogether, I'm not sure, maybe in some iterations they have. But it's a pretty fundamental part of the character's arsenal, and it's one of the things that distinguishes her powerset from, say, Superman. Which is always a problem for DC flying bricks- figuring out what they can do that Superman can't do better, or at least as well.

[Imperial Overlord]

To give DC credit, they've had some reasonably good writers doing WW previously-- Greg Rucka and JMS, for two, Rucka's run being particularly praised IIRC. The character herself isn't so bad, it's the popular perceptions of her that create issues. It also doesn't help that the Amazon culture hasn't been particularly well written previously, existing as a side-note to the general WW storylines.

Yes, she's much less problematic in the hands of a good writer and she has had good writers. Unfortunately, the conservatism of the comics industry works against her getting a full overhaul and DC drifting rudderlessly in the new 52 with its new grimdarkness and special blundering over the handling of their female characters (not that the males are much better off) isn't the place you're going to find a positive overhaul.

Also, the most common legend on how the Amazons reproduced is that they had sex with men of a neighboring tribe and the fathers kept the male babies and the Amazons the female ones. Since the Amazons are supposed to be good guys with some kind of admirable society that produces a couple of bonefide superheroes, going with something similar to that legend instead of rape, murder, and slavery might be a thing DC should do.

[The Romulan Republic]

Well, the Amazons definitely can't be good guys if they're raping, murdering enslavers. However, you could have good, even heroic people come from a corrupt society. For example, Wonder Woman could be an idealistic rebel against her corrupt, tyrannical homeland. It would fit nicely with the whole American flag motif if she came to identify with stories of the American Revolution fighting for equality against tyranny.

Perhaps she was even brainwashed to believe in her culture's ways until she was exposed to the outside world and realized that their are a lot of valid ways of doing things other than the one she's familiar with.

You could, conceivably craft an interesting character around that kind of change/realization.

But God, everything I hear about New 52 sounds shitty. Makes me glad I don't usually read the comics. I tend to stick to movies and TV shows for superheroes (though I do own the novel of the Batman story No Man's Land).

Edit: I think any higher quality in film and television can be put down to two main factors-

1. Greater publicity/bigger audience. And in the case of cartoons like Justice League, a young audience. That's important because it means that you have to appeal to the mainstream, not a niche, and you have to tone down the grimdark. You'd think that the former would lead to lower quality, but if the niche the comics are pandering to is the misogynistic and obsessive parts of nerd culture, as I fear is often the case with comics...

2. Fewer stories making it easier to maintain consistency/continuity.

[Imperial Overlord]

Well, the Amazons definitely can't be good guys if they're raping, murdering enslavers. However, you could have good, even heroic people come from a corrupt society. For example, Wonder Woman could be an idealistic rebel against her corrupt, tyrannical homeland. It would fit nicely with the whole American flag motif if she came to identify with stories of the American Revolution fighting for equality against tyranny.

Perhaps she was even brainwashed to believe in her culture's ways until she was exposed to the outside world and realized that their are a lot of valid ways of doing things other than the one she's familiar with.

You could, conceivably craft an interesting character around that kind of change/realization.

You could, but they didn't. She's still her homeland's champion, a state of affairs that is exactly as unpleasant as you think it is. The New 52 needs to die in a fire.

[The Romulan Republic]

It sounds like prime reboot material. But to fix things, you'd also need to get rid of the assholes responsible. In other words, a purge of DC's staff.

[mr friendly guy]

From her earliest incarnation WW was rendered powerless if a man ties her bracelets of submission together. It can only work if its a man. Many a story occurred when it turned out the men were women, or clones (apparently they don't count) etc. Interestingly if her bracelets were removed she goes into a berserker rage.

In the television series starring Lynda Carter she would lose her power if you remove her belt, since Amazons only have super strength on their home island, which was called Paradise island instead of Themiscrya.

As people have noted, obviously tying her up with the lasso makes sense because its kind of hard to break. In the old days ie pre crisis, the lasso can compel the person tied up to do things, so that was another bonus. It wasn't just used against Wonder Woman, it could be used against almost anyone. In post crisis, it just made you tell the truth. So the lasso of command became the lasso of truth.

I have no idea about the lasso and weaknesses in the new 52 (its hinted by the Injustice society they discovered a weakness), but WW has replaced Ares as the God of War. And makes out with Superman. He should have gone with Princess Maxima. Unfortunately Maxima is a now teenager in the new 52 which would be really creepy. But its not all bad. Justice League is nice, and the Green Lantern books are still entertaining. WW is ok I guess.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Blatantly sexist comics would be reason enough to dislike the character.

True, but blatantly sexist comics are by no means exclusive to Wonder Women. I'm sure the more comic knowledgeable people here will be able to list a number of modern comics that have improved in this regard/bucked the trend`, but broadly speaking comic books as a whole have a very troublesome attitude towards women.

[Iroscato]

Necro time, baby!







New trailer is up. I'm...slightly worried by it. I was open-minded regarding Eisenburg's casting as Luthor but...Jesus, that first scene with him in is irritating. Also, Doomsday is 100% confirmed, but looks more like the cave troll from LOTR than the dude from the comics.

However, I love the visual style so far, it looks superbly made, Affleck is looking and sounding great as BW/Batman, and I'm still really excited for the film

[NeoGoomba]

Yeah I really feel...a whole lot of "meh" on this. This coming AFTER the Captain America: Civil War doesn't do it any favors either. It seems way too grimdark without any kind of heart to it. Eisenberg is a great actor, but I'm really not digging this. Give me Brian Cranston as Lex Luthor any day. And I really, really hope they give Wonder Woman more of an introduction than just some super awful WWE run-in with no set-up.


.
Clark Kent not knowing who Bruce Wayne is was pretty terrible also.

[Crazedwraith]

My Boss showed me that trailer and I had the opposite reaction to it. Really nicely sets up the reasoning for the conflict and how they'll eventually come together to fight Doomsday.

As for humour, I loved the reaction to Wonder Woman's appearance for that reason. It's easy to find at least one joke for a trailer though, so I hope there more moments like that.

[Borgholio]

I was actually excited by the trailer. WW's entrance was perfect, Lex does look a tad bit insane (as he should be), and the zombie-doomsday looks...interesting.

[Gaidin]

I liked it because I finally saw more characters than Batman and Superman(and yes...not in Superman and Batman outfits) and them not necessarily being overly darkly brooding at each other for all screen time of the movie. Gives a better feel for the movie than all the rest.

[Lagmonster]

Lex's speech at the party was actually very funny in context. The whole, "Do NOT pick a fight with this man" line to Wayne was a good topper.

[SCRawl]

Did anyone else get the impression that Wayne knew that he was talking to Superman? I mean, it seems ridiculous anyway that the world's greatest detective couldn't penetrate Superman's disguise, but there sure were some cues from his body language and word choice that he knew.

[Ted C]

That trailer substantially lowered my expectations.