Batman v Superman - Now with spoilers and plot discussion!

[The Romulan Republic]

How long had the catastrophe been going on then? Is it possible that most of those inside had already evacuated?

[Haminal10]

Really loved the trailer.

The sequence with Bruce Wayne being the only one running towards the wall of smoke while everyone else was running away felt like the thing that Batman would do. The trailer also made Batman's motivation for fighting Superman more understandable: from his POV, Superman was at least partially responsible for a 9/11+ event. It is also very likely that Bruce knew at least a few of the "dozens killed" when Wayne Tower collapsed.

Really looking forward to the movie.

[SCRawl]

Well, its pretty clear that they're keeping the basic background of Batman the same. Rich, Gotham, white man (obviously), parents were shot in front of him in an alley when he was a child, has a helper named Alfred... But beyond that... yeah, I don't know.

I wonder if they'll give the Joker a clear backstory. Burton did. Nolan didn't.

But how long has Batman been active in this universe? Is Superman's appearance what pushes him over the edge, causing him to take up the mantle? We see what appear to be contemporary news reports on initial Batman sightings. The brief image of the gunman and what appear to be Wayne's parents does seem to confirm the standard origin, but it could just be the initial event which alters Wayne's worldview.

[Elheru Aran]

Well, its pretty clear that they're keeping the basic background of Batman the same. Rich, Gotham, white man (obviously), parents were shot in front of him in an alley when he was a child, has a helper named Alfred... But beyond that... yeah, I don't know.

I wonder if they'll give the Joker a clear backstory. Burton did. Nolan didn't.

But how long has Batman been active in this universe? Is Superman's appearance what pushes him over the edge, causing him to take up the mantle? We see what appear to be contemporary news reports on initial Batman sightings. The brief image of the gunman and what appear to be Wayne's parents does seem to confirm the standard origin, but it could just be the initial event which alters Wayne's worldview.

If it's following a similar-ish plot to The Dark Knight Returns, the case is that Batman was active for some time in the past (in this film, if it's taking place 'now', I suppose it could have been the 90s or early 00's) but retired from crime-fighting sometime shortly after Jason Todd's death and putting away most of his major opponents. The rise of Superman and the destruction that takes place in Metropolis, I suppose, is the incentive that he needs to return to being Batman rather than getting fed up with the state of Gotham in a vague dystopian future.

[Crown]

One thing that has me concerned (well a few actually) is that we might not get enough of Amy Adams in this bloated cast. While it's obvious that Snyder's Superman is never going to be like Donner's, Snyder has acting gold in Adams. It would be a folly to waste her.

[Venator]

I wonder if they'll give the Joker a clear backstory. Burton did. Nolan didn't.

He dropped enough hints go give the attentive viewer a good guess that he's a disgruntled-come-unhinged US veteran. But for that story he worked as he was - a schemer with a chip on his shoulder and an alarmingly high quotient of batshit compared to the societal average.

With seemingly screen-time (or at least mention) in both BvS and Suicide Squad, I hope this incarnation is more fleshed out.

[Batman]

I always considered the fact that nobody including the Joker really knew his definite backstory to be one of the more interesting aspects of the Joker.

[The Romulan Republic]

I wonder if they'll give the Joker a clear backstory. Burton did. Nolan didn't.

He dropped enough hints go give the attentive viewer a good guess that he's a disgruntled-come-unhinged US veteran. But for that story he worked as he was - a schemer with a chip on his shoulder and an alarmingly high quotient of batshit compared to the societal average.

With seemingly screen-time (or at least mention) in both BvS and Suicide Squad, I hope this incarnation is more fleshed out.

I don't recall getting the impression that Nolan's Joker was a vet., though it would fit with The Dark Knight's commentary on post-911 America and could explain the Joker's skill with a wide range of weapons including bazookas and explosives (things that a typical civilian probably wouldn't have access to). What are you referring to?

And I liked that Nolan's Joker didn't have a clear backstory. It allowed him to be simultaneously human and even sympathetic on some level (because something horrendous apparently happened to him) and an embodiment of chaos itself (as he portrayed himself) and of all of the evil and pain of humanity. He was at once a man and a force of nature, and that's part of what made the character so powerful.

Also, where did you hear that the Joker would be in Batman vs Superman?

[Gandalf]

Dude, look at the preserved Robin suit from the BvS trailer. Does that not scream Joker to you?

[The Romulan Republic]

Doesn't mean that the Joker will be in the film. Maybe we just see his handiwork after the fact.

[Gandalf]

I think we've a wire crossed. I meant that he'll be in the film in that one doesn't have to be physically in the film to be present. That's one of the advantages of someone like the Joker, in that he's not so much a character as he is a thing to drive other character's reactions. Like the newspaper article with "You let your family die" scrawled over it. Whether or not we see him, he's in the film.

[The Romulan Republic]

Perhaps, though it might not be a big role, especially given how little is shown in the teaser and how much is being fit in this film.

Anyway, I also want to say that I'm growing to like Wonder Woman's costume. Someone posted a good picture of it on a magazine cover or something a while ago, and I have to say, I like how they've managed to capture the basic shape and colours of the classic style while still avoiding the overt silliness of the American flag swimsuit look. It still shows a bit too much skin for a suite of armour (but then its Wonder Woman and she probably doesn't need armour against most opponents) and the colours are a bit too muted, but all things considered, well done.

[The Romulan Republic]

The Batman costume I don't really care for. Too blocky and ugly. Maybe that's a more realistic look for a suite of body armour, but to me the Nolan/Bale Batman's costume is the gold standard.

As for Superman's costume... I don't really give a shit to be honest. Its not terrible but I don't love it.

[Batman]

Clark's costume simply stinks. Grimdark is 'my' thing. I 'want' Clark to be bright primary colours. He's the 'hope' guy, the 'everything will turn out all right' one. I don't 'want' his costume to be subdued.

[Mr Bean]

Clark's costume simply stinks. Grimdark is 'my' thing. I 'want' Clark to be bright primary colours. He's the 'hope' guy, the 'everything will turn out all right' one. I don't 'want' his costume to be subdued.

Remeber this video? Your not going to get Bright Colors anytime soon for DC.

[Simon_Jester]

http://furiousfanboys.com/2015/04/viral ... lly-looks/

Reports of the desaturation are apparently... exaggerated?

[Venator]

I wonder if they'll give the Joker a clear backstory. Burton did. Nolan didn't.

He dropped enough hints go give the attentive viewer a good guess that he's a disgruntled-come-unhinged US veteran. But for that story he worked as he was - a schemer with a chip on his shoulder and an alarmingly high quotient of batshit compared to the societal average.

With seemingly screen-time (or at least mention) in both BvS and Suicide Squad, I hope this incarnation is more fleshed out.

I don't recall getting the impression that Nolan's Joker was a vet., though it would fit with The Dark Knight's commentary on post-911 America and could explain the Joker's skill with a wide range of weapons including bazookas and explosives (things that a typical civilian probably wouldn't have access to). What are you referring to?

That's part of it, detailed more -

http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-awesome-t ... haracters/

This is the website that claimed transporters = instant ST victory against SW, but if the combat boot fits etc. etc.

[Simon_Jester]

Eh, if your knowledge of Star Trek is on the casual level, and your knowledge of Star Wars is on the casual level, the "just beam bombs into people's pants" solution to Trek/Wars crossovers is pretty appealing.

It takes a lot of pickiness and thinking about it way more than any Cracked author thinks about the issues they write on to realize the problem with that idea.

The "Joker is a vet" hypothesis is actually interesting, although I'll note that given that the Joker's a rootless wandering type it's entirely possible that his experience with heavy weapons was acquired somewhere outside the United States.

[Elheru Aran]

Note that Cracked has an assortment of authors on board and they are a humor site, not one devoted to serious debates (as serious as the versus debate can get, anyway), so I would not take them particularly seriously anyway. Although there was an extremely depressing article a week or two ago about investigating the world of child predators... that was bloody fucking disturbing.

The veteran thing is mildly plausible, but then, so are any of a number of different origins. There's a very decent 'Batman: Black and White" story illustrated by Alex Ross which takes a look at the various comic-verse stories-- failed comedian turned criminal, gangster, man of mystery, and so forth-- then points out that the report being discussed in the story was written by one Dr. Harleen Quinzel, and therefore is quite possibly unreliable to start with. Nice little touch.

[Simon_Jester]

True, although we were talking fairly specifically about the Heath Ledger version of the Joker in The Dark Knight.

Ledger's Joker doesn't use the weird 'comedy' gimmicks like acid-squirting flowers so much, whereas he'll cheerfully turn out to be a crack shot with a missile launcher. He's the Joker in the sense of 'the wild card in the deck,' not so much in the sense of 'the guy who makes jokes.'

[Elheru Aran]

True, although we were talking fairly specifically about the Heath Ledger version of the Joker in The Dark Knight.

Ledger's Joker doesn't use the weird 'comedy' gimmicks like acid-squirting flowers so much, whereas he'll cheerfully turn out to be a crack shot with a missile launcher. He's the Joker in the sense of 'the wild card in the deck,' not so much in the sense of 'the guy who makes jokes.'

Yeah. His expertise with weapons doesn't have to be acquired in the military, though-- he could have been a gun nut in a previous life, or he's simply slightly familiar with how they work and doesn't have enough of a sense of self-preservation to care about the explosions that happen around him. Being completely bananas doesn't always take the form of making stupid jokes all the time.

As far as I'm concerned, Nolan/Ledger's version's origin is irrelevant as far as that story went-- he presents himself more or less in the same form from beginning to end, there's no 'origin' like you get with Jonathan Crane or Selina Kyle or even Ra's al Ghul/Ducard. Thematically, he's a form of anarchy personified, rather than an actual villain, though he certainly perpetrates criminal acts.

[The Romulan Republic]

True, although we were talking fairly specifically about the Heath Ledger version of the Joker in The Dark Knight.

Ledger's Joker doesn't use the weird 'comedy' gimmicks like acid-squirting flowers so much, whereas he'll cheerfully turn out to be a crack shot with a missile launcher. He's the Joker in the sense of 'the wild card in the deck,' not so much in the sense of 'the guy who makes jokes.'

He does have a sort of subdued black humour.

There was a thread on Ledger's Joker's humour way back.

bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=124929

[Elheru Aran]

That was what pissed people off so much about Ledger's Joker-- he wasn't so much about the outrageous version of the character as he was exploring the dark underside, the Joker who's more of a brutal killer and cruel anarchist, who's only funny in a black-humour way. It was a huge departure from Nicholson's portrayal and how he normally appears in most of his comic stories. Depictions like the Killing Joke and Grant Morrison's Arkham Asylum story were far less common now than the shit we get where Joker hacks his own damn face off (and Harley sticks it on Deadshot's face and tongues the shit out of it, but that's another thing...)

[The Romulan Republic]

You talk about how Ledger's Joker "...pissed people off so much..." as if this was a common reaction. Maybe among old school fans of the animated series or Burton's films, but as I recall the response in general was pretty positive. I seem to recall reading that Ledger is the only person to win an Oscar for playing such a role.

As for the Joker hacking his face off, I don't think you can blame that shit on The Dark Knight. The Dark Knight was, whatever its flaws, a serious film which I think managed to be dark without, for the most part at least, being gratuitous or crass. Its not the filmmakers' fault that some asshole with a grimdark fetish decided to go overboard.

Edit: To be fair, I don't recall the incident in question. I'm just going off your description.

[Batman]

I'm a big fan of the animated series and the first Burton movie, and I 'loved' Ledger's Joker. At least modern age Joker 'is' a murderous psychopath. The Killing Joke was hardly exceptional. NML and Last Laugh come to mind, as does A Death in the Family. Heck Nicholson's Joker was a pretty psychotic character.