Game of Thrones Season 5 (TV ONLY)

[Vympel]

Gurm on the controversy:

http://grrm.livejournal.com/429752.html

Meanwhile, other wars are breaking out on other fronts, centered around the last few episodes of GAME OF THRONES. It is not my intention to get involved in those, nor to allow them to take over my blog and website, so please stop emailing me about them, or posting off-topic comments here on my Not A Blog. Wage those battles on Westeros, or Tower of the Hand, or Boiled Leather, or Winter Is Coming, or Watchers on the Walls. Anyplace that isn't here, actually.

Yes, I know that THE HOLLYWOOD REPORTER named me "the third most powerful writer in Hollywood" last December. You would be surprised at how little that means. I cannot control what anyone else says or does, or make them stop saying or doing it, be it on the fannish or professional fronts. What I can control is what happens in my books, so I am going to return to that chapter I've been writing on THE WINDS OF WINTER now, thank you very much.

[Pelranius]

Wow, so all these controversial scenes from the series could have the net effect of pushing back the completion of TWOW by a day or day. Heh.

[TheFeniX]

I wasn't a big fan about the setup to the burning (and whoops on the circumstances around the vagina assassin, that's on me and my bad memory), but do people really want another by-the-numbers series where everyone gets a happy ending? Are the ramblings of one Philip J. Fry the gospel?*

I get people are upset, but we seem to be in table flipping mode when this whole "we'll kill anyone we want" shtick is kind of a big part of GoTs. Part of what kills a lot of TV for me is knowing that, aside from contract disputes, nothing is generally going to kill an established character in a franchise and that shit gets old. It's nice to say "shit, I liked that person. Now they're dead. Whelp, serves me right."

*They are.

[Sinewmire]

I really liked the scene. It genuinely upset me, because unlike all the other characters who died, it wasn't utterly blatantly obvious what would happen. I couldn't quite bring myself to believe that Stannis would do it, or that the show would do it. Kerry Ingram and Stephen Dillane both really sold the scene with their acting. As my friend who watched the episode with me "Look, you can actually see his soul die!"

As for the poor folks left to die in the arena... did they have any better ideas?

Despite being a cross between the KKK/ISIS and imbued with Ramsay Snow levels of absurdly unbelievable adaptation martial competence, it was amusing to see the Sons of the Harpy take the time to surround Dany and friends in that face off, instead of immediately throwing spears at them.

Probably none of them want to die. The fanatics were killed by the unsullied as they attacked, these ones are the guys who hung back and killed the unarmed civilians.

[Ziggy Stardust]

I wasn't a big fan about the setup to the burning (and whoops on the circumstances around the vagina assassin, that's on me and my bad memory), but do people really want another by-the-numbers series where everyone gets a happy ending? Are the ramblings of one Philip J. Fry the gospel?*

I get people are upset, but we seem to be in table flipping mode when this whole "we'll kill anyone we want" shtick is kind of a big part of GoTs. Part of what kills a lot of TV for me is knowing that, aside from contract disputes, nothing is generally going to kill an established character in a franchise and that shit gets old. It's nice to say "shit, I liked that person. Now they're dead. Whelp, serves me right."

*They are.

For the record, I'm not upset about Shireen dying. My only qualms were with how rushed the lead-up to it felt, but that's a different story.

I generally agree with you that it's nice to have a show that bucks standard story-telling tropes and traditions. It's good to defy audience expectations. But there's a certain point where you have to question WHY these characters are dying. Killing main characters just for the sake of fucking with the audience isn't good story-telling, it's just as repetitive and lazy as having the good guys always win. I mean, how often do we need to be reminded that the world of GoT is bleak and unforgiving and concepts like honor and inherent goodness won't protect you, etc. etc.? We all know that already, so why keep banging the point home? I recommend looking up some of Andy Greenwald's reviews of the show this season, he talks about this at great length and with great eloquence. It's one thing to defy generic story structures and do something original, but if you continue pointlessly throwing twists at the audience your story is just as stale and uninteresting as one that sticks rigidly to convention (see Shyamalan, M. Night).

That said, I haven't personally reached the point with GoT where I think this is the case, but I recognize why some people may be discontented with the way the show has gone. It's not JUST a hollow temper tantrum like you seem to imply, there's a very real critique there.

[Thanas]

It's not that they killed her, it is that they made it look like Stannis is the typical gamer who resorts to cheats at the first sign of trouble. In this case, it felt rushed and without great resistance. The scene would be far more believable if it really was a choice between "kill the girl" and "let the whole army die".

[FaxModem1]

Again, shadow baby, brother. Fire, brother in law, nephew, leeches. This is a rather established pattern for Stannis, if someone gets in his way, or if he has something he wants, and Melissandre and the Lord of Light is way to do it, he'll do it. He's been doing this for four seasons now.

[TheFeniX]

It's not that they killed her, it is that they made it look like Stannis is the typical gamer who resorts to cheats at the first sign of trouble. In this case, it felt rushed and without great resistance. The scene would be far more believable if it really was a choice between "kill the girl" and "let the whole army die".

See, that's a legitimate complaint as far as I'm concerned as is being annoyed at Ramsey's shenanigans, which should have him receiving a letter delivered by owl detailing his acceptance into Hogwarts. Most of what I see here is "this didn't play out all that well, here's why."

But the general Internet reaction to this and Sansa's rape is like "ZOMG, how could they do this!? Did they have to do this!?" It's fiction, they don't have to do anything. The Game of Thrones could be handled via dance battles. People just seem upset for the exact same reason they loved the show during the first seasons: Martin will kill or brutalize anyone he damn well pleases and falling in love with characters in his books and the show is on you, not him (or the HBO writers).

Like really, the only death that seemed stupidly contrived was Barristan. There was no fucking good reason, his stupid speach doesn't count, for him to leave the pyramid alone, in the barest wisp of armor, and only his sword. He might be incredibly arrogant, but he has to know just how fucking important he and the information he can pass on to Daenerys is. How is him risking assassination, during a time where Unsullied are being murdered in the streets, of any positive value to Daenerys? With Jorah gone, he's the only person in her entourage who has any kind of in-depth knowledge of Westeros. I'm not saying the man should cower in the palace and never leave, but take a few damned precautions.

But the Harpys are fucking magic anyways, so it was really moot.

[Thanas]

Barristan died a true knight, I didn't mind that so much.

But Ramsay and Stannis plotlines are filled with so much things that need to happen because the writers want to do a certain scene, instead of them feeling organic and rising from the story itself. This is where I distinguish between Sansa and Shireen. Sansa getting raped was logical from the way the storyline unfolded. Shireen getting burned was more of a "things we need to do" list item.

[Lord Revan]

Problem I suppose it that series isn't that good at showing that Stannis has in the end a rather weak personality, he's strong when things go his way or he's dealing with people he thinks he can intimidate but when dealing with someone like Ramsay who too insane to be intimidated but still skillful enough that Stannis can't just crush him Stannis's personality flaws start to take the centre stage.

[Elfdart]

Barristan died a true knight, I didn't mind that so much.

But Ramsay and Stannis plotlines are filled with so much things that need to happen because the writers want to do a certain scene, instead of them feeling organic and rising from the story itself. This is where I distinguish between Sansa and Shireen. Sansa getting raped was logical from the way the storyline unfolded. Shireen getting burned was more of a "things we need to do" list item.

I think most of that stems from the limits the producers put on themselves: seventy one-hour episodes. Apparently they have so much to cover in the next twenty-one episodes that they couldn't draw out Stannis' plight as long as the probably should have, so they sped things up to fit it in.

Personally, I thought Mrs. Baratheon was going to do the deed, since she was always cold to her daughter (calling her "worthless") and as much a fundie nutcase as anyone else. I also thought having Stannis do it was too obvious a steal from the Agamemnon and Jephtah stories, and Martin/Weiss/Benioff tend to file the numbers off.

[Thanas]

Why stop at seventy episodes? Just get eighty and do things proper.

[Mr Bean]

Why stop at seventy episodes? Just get eighty and do things proper.

I posted this in the other thread so let me copy-paste it over here

Way back at the start when things were being pitched RR Martin threw around 7-10 seasons to get his entire book series done. HBO came back with six, after the success of the first season HBO relented to seven. Come Season four HBO was like say could you make it ten seasons now? The Showrunners said no you said seven season we structured it for seven.

Now it's season five and you can SEE the speed up, the compression, the cut plotlines, there's easy enough material for two more episodes per season. To put that in math terms there's enough for another season and a half of content.

It's a simple of adding up lot and figuring out where they cut out chunks of the books and called it a day.
They can't go back into there they have to start getting Fanfic at this point.

[Elfdart]

Why stop at seventy episodes? Just get eighty and do things proper.

I posted this in the other thread so let me copy-paste it over here

Way back at the start when things were being pitched RR Martin threw around 7-10 seasons to get his entire book series done. HBO came back with six, after the success of the first season HBO relented to seven. Come Season four HBO was like say could you make it ten seasons now? The Showrunners said no you said seven season we structured it for seven.

Now it's season five and you can SEE the speed up, the compression, the cut plotlines, there's easy enough material for two more episodes per season. To put that in math terms there's enough for another season and a half of content.

It's a simple of adding up lot and figuring out where they cut out chunks of the books and called it a day.
They can't go back into there they have to start getting Fanfic at this point.

They could have gotten around that by making each episode 75 minutes instead of 55. That's the equivalent of three more episodes per season. If they had simply made each episode a full 60 minutes they'd have enough for the equivalent of almost a full episode. Even if these weren't viable options (I can't think of any reasons why not), the Stannis thread could have been better handled by having him leave the Wall in Episode 1, then spend seven episodes losing men to desertion, disease, starvation, Bolton raids to the point where he really would be desperate. This last episode makes him look fickle and comes across as an all too deliberate heel turn like the kind in pro wrestling.

[The Vortex Empire]

I'll really, really enjoy it when Ramsay Bolton's Mary Sue plot armor gives out and he finally dies.

[Venator]

I'll really, really enjoy it when Ramsay Bolton's Mary Sue plot armor gives out and he finally dies.

And, given how it's the closest thing Game of Thrones has to actually making you feel good, his fall will be as horrid as his rise.

[FaxModem1]

Well, I'm still rooting for Podrick and Brienne.

[Balrog]

Well, I'm still rooting for Podrick and Brienne.

Well, I guess they'll die next...

[Haminal10]

They did a really good job of faking us out with how things would turn out for Stannis. They showed the snow melting, Stannis saying the siege would begin at dawn, and showed him drawing his sword.

Didn't work out too well after all.

[FaxModem1]

Unless Bran comes back somehow, or Sansa somehow survived her fall, the Starks are officially done. Arya is being converted into a faceless assassin, and Rickon has been gone since season 2.

The Tyrells are still rotting in a dungeon, so they might get out of this, or they might not.

The Greyjoys have been gone, and unless they come back to pointlessly die against the Boltons, are done.

Speaking of which, the Boltons have the North, unless Sansa's really dead, and this enrages the North to kill them for what they've done.

The Lannisters are low in number, with Tommen, Jaime, Cersei, and that's about it.and have a tenuous grasp on the city, with Olena Tyrell probably going to squeeze King's Landing.

Dany has just been captured/killed/gotten a new army? We'll see when it comes back in season 6.

So, Littlefinger has gone up the ladder, and will probably be going against the Boltons pretty soon, now that Stannis is out of the way.

[Elfdart]

I think Elaria just started a palace coup against her brother-in-law.

I was shocked that Jon got it. I was glad Stannis and his wife were put out of their misery.

Arya -NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Sansa and Theon had better hope they meet up with Brienne before Ramsay finds them. It reminded me of how Empress Maude slipped out of a besieged castle by jumping out of a tower into a snowdrift. She also used white linens as camouflage.

Too bad Thoros isn't around to cast Raise Dead on Jon like he did on Obi-Wan Dendarion. And being 9th level, he could turn the wights, too. I thought this was funny, though:



I won't.

Cersei has to be pissed. Gargamel finally has his monster ready after the walk of shame. Great timing!

[RogueIce]

Poor Jon...

Well at least that leaves Ser Davos open to heading East so he can join Team Dany.

Arya paid the price for her shenanigans, but I can't say I'm sad to see Trant dead. And hey, her brother is a cripple but has some funky magic powers, so maybe going blind won't be so bad for her.

I'm pretty sure Sansa and Theon are alive, given they would have shown us their bodies otherwise. That was a jump to freedom, not death.

Poor Jamie...guess Doran is getting that war after all? Especially with Cersai back in the Red Keep, with the Mountain by her side to keep away the Faith Militant.

That was a pretty brutal subversion in that scene between Jamie and his daughter, though. Very well done.

On the up side, Varys is back! And he and Tyrion will get to do no doubt cool things in Season 6. And we'll see what Dany makes of these new Dothraki. I am quite excited to see what happens.

[Kingmaker]

Apparently Ramsay is some kind of tactical gen--- CREEEEEEEEEED!

Seriously, how the fuck do you not notice the main body of your enemy's army approaching?

All of the plotlines in the North have felt really rushed and in need of fleshing out or better pacing.

[Crown]

Good episode, sad to see the end of the Mannis.

[Pelranius]

Seems like an awful lot of cliff hangers.

Looks like the end for Stannis, unless Brienne and Pod pull off some wacky buddy cop hijinks with him as they abscond with Sansa and Theon. Looks like Show Stannis really did love Selyse after all.

I guessed Trystane is screwed, if Myrcella bites it.

It'd be sort of funny to see Lancel fight Ser Robert Strong. Pretty quick, too.

Wonder how the whole Dany thing is going to play out? Will the Dothraki force Dany to stay with all the other Khal widows at Vaes Dothraki, and will Lord Friendzone and Not-Bluebeard II have to bust her out?