Game of Thrones Season 5 (TV ONLY)

[RogueIce]

Meh, she's a tough cookie. I bet she can beat it. And maybe it's just touching the infected parts, not just any part of your body. Who knows?

[Pelranius]

Meh, she's a tough cookie. I bet she can beat it. And maybe it's just touching the infected parts, not just any part of your body. Who knows?

Apparently you can catch greyscale from cloth dolls, at least in the show.

Considering that this is Planetos we're talking about, she'll probably not die but be contagious and start infecting people on her way back to Westeros.

[FaxModem1]

First off, fuck Stannis, I've hated him since season 2, and now that he's done THAT, well, I hope he gets to be a guest of Ramsay's. Shireen was going to open a school, teach the Wildlings to read, and make Westeros a better place by just being that awesome girl she is if Stannis somehow won. I knew this was coming, but geez, still heartbreaking to watch.

Second, Dany and the dragon had an awesome time. You could sum up the dragon's reaction when that spear came, "WE WERE HAVING A MOMENT".

Third, Dany's fiance, was he in on the conspiracy, and got killed in the crossfire, or just an 'innocent' victim of the Harpies?

[Haruko]

And then I saw her fly,
Now I'm a believer...

[Haruko]

And yeah, fuck Stannis.

[Raesene]

So, who is going to kill Stannis ? His wife, Ser Davos, a mutiny, Ramsay, Roose or Melisandre ?

[Elfdart]

So, who is going to kill Stannis ? His wife, Ser Davos, a mutiny, Ramsay, Roose or Melisandre ?

I hope Brienn of Tarth shoves her new Valyrian steel sword right up his ass. Stannis has now topped Littlefinger as the character I most want to see die in agony.

[Vympel]

Cross-posting:

*sigh*

Well, I was hoping against hope since Season 4 (when Mel told Selyse that Shireen should come) that this wouldn't happen, but of course the show decided to punch me in the dick anyway.

Thoughts:

*I knew Ramsay's raid would inevitably come off as somewhat contrived, but damn did they really go all out. All of their food and their siege engines? Really? Everything just went that well? They didn't fail at one thing? Come on. There are better ways to make Shireen's sacrifice 'necessary', and this wasn't it.

*My GF cried her eyes out throughout the scene. It was a powerful bit of film-making, every single scene in Stannis' camp, I'll give it that.

*Doran finally got to say more than two words! And it was good! Did it amount to anything though? We'll see, I hope.

*I don't know how anyone could be down on the effects in the pit. I thought they looked cool. The whole sequence was good - though Hizdahr getting his ass stabbed sure came as a surprise.

*I liked that Dany calmed Drogon just by being there, as opposed to whipping him into submission.

*As to the sacrifice itself - jeez. We have D&D saying basically "George did it, blame him" in Inside the Episode, but its hard to know how far that goes - given the things they've done in the past, there's just as much reason to think Shireen simply burns is what they're talking about, as opposed to who did the burning. I'd like to think they're not that blase with the 'who did it', but they've made these types of changes before.

*Jon and the Wildlings arriving at the Wall was a particularly lazy bit of writing. The writers didn't give a shit how they got to Hardhome or how they got back - they wanted the visual of the Wildlings being at the other side of the gate, irrespective of it making no sense. This annoys me more than it should.

And here's the thing - the Episode 10 preview makes it out that Stannis' sacrifice worked.

D&D interview:

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/06/07/ga ... es-Shireen

When I asked Weiss the question that fans surely have tonight: “How could you do that to Shireen?” Weiss philosophically noted you could “flip that question” into a larger debate about how we’re all highly selective about which characters deserve our empathy. Stannis has been burning people alive for seemingly trivial reasons since season 2, yet we’ve still tended to regard him as a great leader—at least, by Westeros standards.

Hard to argue with that though.

[GuppyShark]

Stannis hasn't changed.

He has always been about the utilitarian outcome. If Shireen's sacrifice is necessary to prevent far greater suffering he will do it, regardless of the personal cost.

[LaCroix]

Oh come on - she asked for it... *ducks thrown objects*

But yeah, that scene was the worst the show has done. For now.

[Vympel]

Worst in terms of the effect it had on the audience, but it was a great bit of television. Jeezus that was rough.

Its worth quoting D&D at lenght actually:

“It’s like a two-tiered system,” he noted. “If a superhero knocks over a building and there are 5,000 people in the building that we can presume are now dead, does it matter? Because they’re not people we know. But if one dog we like gets run over by a car, it’s the worst thing we’ve we’ve ever seen. I totally understand where that visceral reaction comes from. I have that same reaction. There’s also something shitty about that. So instead of saying, ‘How could you do this to somebody you know and care about?’ maybe when it’s happening to somebody we don’t know so well, maybe then it should hit us all a bit harder.”

Which is exactly the sort of morality questions that Thrones so often stimulates. Like after the brutal Red Wedding season 3, Tywin Lannister asked whether killing a wedding party of characters we love was wrong if by doing so it ends a war and saves thousands of anonymous lives?

Weiss also added that religious fanaticism in Stannis’ camp adds another level to the Shireen murder, one that could provides some insight into our own world.

“People who watch Game of Thrones don’t see the same world as Stannis and Melisandre,” Weiss said. “To those characters, magic is real and it works. That’s something fun about this genre because when magic is real and you can see it with your own eyes in the show, it gives you a window into the heads of people who believe irrational things on faith. I can’t really get my head around how those people operate in our world, as they’re so completely disconnected from the way I process the world. So in a strange way, fantasy is a cock-eyed window into the heads of people who would do something terrible for an irrational reason.”

[Pelranius]

It was weird how Selyse had a sudden change of heart like that.

So that's Mance, Barristan, Shireen and Hizhadr who're dead now, as opposed to the books.

Though if Arya kills Mervyn Trant next week, wouldn't that make it five?

Wow, the Dorne thing looks like a huge waste of time. At least no Dorkstar or Faegon (but the Sand Snakes seems to have found their calling as comic relief).

[TheHammer]

*Jon and the Wildlings arriving at the Wall was a particularly lazy bit of writing. The writers didn't give a shit how they got to Hardhome or how they got back - they wanted the visual of the Wildlings being at the other side of the gate, irrespective of it making no sense. This annoys me more than it should.

Why does that bother you?

And here's the thing - the Episode 10 preview makes it out that Stannis' sacrifice worked.

I wonder if its an obvious act of magic, or something more ambiguous where you wonder if it was magic or if it was always going to happen. Case in point, the shadow assassin was pretty clearly magic, however the killings of Rob Stark and Joffrey Baratheon would seem to be the work of good old fashioned intrigue by Tywin Lannister/Roose Bolton, and Littlefinger/Tyrells respectively.

[Pelranius]

Well, why didn't the Wildings and Jon land south of the wall, at Eastwatch on the Bay (sp), is what Vympel is asking about, if I may interject.

[TheHammer]

Well, why didn't the Wildings and Jon land south of the wall, at Eastwatch on the Bay (sp), is what Vympel is asking about, if I may interject.

Lack of available harbors? Uncooperative weather? I never understood why the Wildlings didn't try to over-run one of the unoccupied castles, including eastwatch, unless the only realistic way south of the wall was through Castle Black.

[Pelranius]

Well, why didn't the Wildings and Jon land south of the wall, at Eastwatch on the Bay (sp), is what Vympel is asking about, if I may interject.

Lack of available harbors? Uncooperative weather? I never understood why the Wildlings didn't try to over-run one of the unoccupied castles, including eastwatch, unless the only realistic way south of the wall was through Castle Black.

Well, Eastwatch does have a pretty decent harbor, IIRC.

[Simon_Jester]

Worst in terms of the effect it had on the audience, but it was a great bit of television. Jeezus that was rough.

Its worth quoting D&D at lenght actually:

“It’s like a two-tiered system,” he noted. “If a superhero knocks over a building and there are 5,000 people in the building that we can presume are now dead, does it matter? Because they’re not people we know. But if one dog we like gets run over by a car, it’s the worst thing we’ve we’ve ever seen. I totally understand where that visceral reaction comes from. I have that same reaction. There’s also something shitty about that. So instead of saying, ‘How could you do this to somebody you know and care about?’ maybe when it’s happening to somebody we don’t know so well, maybe then it should hit us all a bit harder.”

Although there's a flip side to that. It IS a normal part of the human condition to be much kinder to those we know than to those we don't. It IS a normal part of the human condition to be more considerate of people we've given promises to than to those we haven't.

So when you see a person who's willing to kill people he knows and loves, you ask "wow, just how horribly lethal and cruel are you prepared to be, in order to get what you want? If you will horribly kill the person you should love more than anyone, how cruel can you get to those you don't have that kind of bond with?"

And when you see a person who will casually betray solemn oaths and promises, you ask "wow, if you're willing to do that to someone you promised safety to, how murderous are you to me, who has no such assurances?"

People who act this way can never really be trusted by anyone, ever, because they make it very explicit that everyone around them is expendable.

[Elfdart]

This Twitter comment made me laugh.

[TheHammer]

Although there's a flip side to that. It IS a normal part of the human condition to be much kinder to those we know than to those we don't. It IS a normal part of the human condition to be more considerate of people we've given promises to than to those we haven't.

So when you see a person who's willing to kill people he knows and loves, you ask "wow, just how horribly lethal and cruel are you prepared to be, in order to get what you want? If you will horribly kill the person you should love more than anyone, how cruel can you get to those you don't have that kind of bond with?"

And when you see a person who will casually betray solemn oaths and promises, you ask "wow, if you're willing to do that to someone you promised safety to, how murderous are you to me, who has no such assurances?"

People who act this way can never really be trusted by anyone, ever, because they make it very explicit that everyone around them is expendable.

While I believe Stannis certainly loves his daughter, I think he has justified in his mind that this is for the "greater good". Stannis' actions are in stark contrast to Cersei. Whereas Cersei would burn whole cities to the ground to save her Children, Stannis makes literally the opposite choice. Seems like its a spin on the Abraham/Isaac biblical story, except there is no last minute save from the LoL for Shireen...

[Pelranius]

This Twitter comment made me laugh.

Indeed.

It almost looks like Stannis has a bigger beard than Davos now.

[Haminal10]

I got the sense that Stannis was weighing his daughter's life against saving all of Westeros from the coming Zombie Apocalypse from the north. Stannis is a true believer, and it looks like he genuinely believes that he is the only one who can stop the White Walkers.

[The Grim Squeaker]

I got the sense that Stannis was weighing his daughter's life against saving all of Westeros from the coming Zombie Apocalypse from the north. Stannis is a true believer, and it looks like he genuinely believes that he is the only one who can stop the White Walkers.

Keeping in mind that beyond that, even at the local scale - his options were limited to:
1. Everyone freezes to death. (Including Shyrene).
2. Send some people back to castle Black (not an option in the books where they were fully snowed in), and abandon his army to die. And wait in Castle Black until the Bolton's come to skin them alive or the zombie apocalypse kills everyone, every man and child and babe in the seven kingdoms (including Shyreene).
3. Sacrifice his daughter, rather than having her be killed anyway, and be assured victory as he saves the entire world.

From any utilitarian POV - not a hard choice. Heck, even if it meant "only" the difference in saving half his army - that's thousands of lives.


And as an aside: +1 to how RIDICOLOUSLY "Plot shielded" Ramsay is. Seriously, 20 men to do that much? There wasn't this much of an imbalance at the damn red wedding! What happened to guards? Multiple Food stores? Hell, how did Ramsey even magically know where all the supplies for the entire camp were, along with lighting everything up as if he had timed explosives.

Extra aside: In the current TellTale Pc games, Ramsay also has something of a plot shield on him. Bah.

[TheFeniX]

You know Stannis is going to turn this around on Davos and be like "You let the bastard go, you killed her." Because, you know, Stannis is..... Stannis. Still, the wife was crying during the burning, all I could think of was

At least Bender is entertaining when he's being horrifically evil.

But didn't some leeches filled with King's Blood make a vagina assassin? Like, wouldn't a few of those be useful? Sure, the weather being clear is great and all, but I'm sure Shireen would prefer a bit of blood loss over burning. Blood magic seem wildly inconsistent.... and convenient.

[TheHammer]

And as an aside: +1 to how RIDICOLOUSLY "Plot shielded" Ramsay is. Seriously, 20 men to do that much? There wasn't this much of an imbalance at the damn red wedding! What happened to guards? Multiple Food stores? Hell, how did Ramsey even magically know where all the supplies for the entire camp were, along with lighting everything up as if he had timed explosives.

Extra aside: In the current TellTale Pc games, Ramsay also has something of a plot shield on him. Bah.

Conspiracy theory: Given the way this went down, one has to wonder, did Ramsay pull this off all on his own? Or did Melisandre assist him so as to force Stannis' hand with the Shireen sacrifice?

But didn't some leeches filled with King's Blood make a vagina assassin? Like, wouldn't a few of those be useful? Sure, the weather being clear is great and all, but I'm sure Shireen would prefer a bit of blood loss over burning. Blood magic seem wildly inconsistent.... and convenient.

The vagina assassin was from Stannis impregnating Melisandre and apparently something he could only do once since he was rebuffed when mentioning doing it again. I suspect she attempted to seduce John Snow for the same effect, but he wasn't having it.

As I mentioned above, Its unclear if the leeches did anything at all - Tywin and Littlefinger did the work to kill Rob and Joffrey. My guess is Melisandre foresaw their deaths and used the leeches as a trick to try and convince Ser Davos et al of the viability of her claim.

[Mr Bean]

As I mentioned above, Its unclear if the leeches did anything at all - Tywin and Littlefinger did the work to kill Rob and Joffrey. My guess is Melisandre foresaw their deaths and used the leeches as a trick to try and convince Ser Davos et al of the viability of her claim.

Speaking of leeches

The usurper Joffrey Baratheon , the usurper Balon Greyjoy, the usurper Robb Stark
Who sir?
What do you mean who?
That middle fellow who was he?
You know I've quite forgotten

No seriously fuck this episode. Stannis was the one who all but threw away his claim even if he had hopes of sitting the Iron Throne he would get his throne by stopping the coming Long Night.

Instead Ramsey use his psychonetic powers to sneak into camp and set all the food, horses and siege engines on fire. Via we can only assume Bolton magic because Ramsey must be a goddamn Wizard.