Game of Thrones Season 4 discussion (book spoilers included)

[Scrib]

This was discussed on the Westeros forums and it was pointed out that it does seem strange for such a misogynistic, psychopath/sadist to have that sort of relationship when he never expressed himself in such a way before but imo it's just a TV thing. Having a woman around may cut the mean-spiritedness of it for the showrunners? Makes it a bit less one-sided?

So no, I don't think that she'll be hunted.

That undermines the whole Reek/Ramsey dinamic the books had going on. But oh well. Reek's actor acting was top notch.

Well...it undermines a Reek that doesn't exist in this universe. The first Reek was the accomplice, he was never introduced in this show. The current Reek (Theon) was more of a passive watcher anyway. The girl is the Reek substitute here. If it undermines anyone it's Ramsay and his rampant misogyny, but then, that can be rationalized away.

[Thanas]

Didn't they have a reek in the third season, the guy who was shot dead with arrows by Ramsay?

[Scrib]

Not to my knowledge? I thought that was just a random Bolton guy that he killed to fuck with Theon. If it's the guy I'm thinking of and the only time he was mentioned was to have Ramsay kill him then he's not really Reek is he?

[Spekio]

Well...it undermines a Reek that doesn't exist in this universe. The first Reek was the accomplice, he was never introduced in this show. The current Reek (Theon) was more of a passive watcher anyway. The girl is the Reek substitute here. If it undermines anyone it's Ramsay and his rampant misogyny, but then, that can be rationalized away.

True. However, I must point out that when Reek "pretends" to be Theon he is an accomplice.

[Scrib]

Well...it undermines a Reek that doesn't exist in this universe. The first Reek was the accomplice, he was never introduced in this show. The current Reek (Theon) was more of a passive watcher anyway. The girl is the Reek substitute here. If it undermines anyone it's Ramsay and his rampant misogyny, but then, that can be rationalized away.

True. However, I must point out that when Reek "pretends" to be Theon he is an accomplice.

Huh? Not morally, or by any moral code I can find acceptable. If someone cuts off your dick and causes you so much pain through flaying that you beg him to cut off your fingers I think you get a pass on the whole agency thing.

The other Reek had fun. Theon has to do what he's told.

[Spekio]

The other Reek had fun. Theon has to do what he's told.

I did know that Theon was not acting under his own volition, but I was under the impression the first Reek was Ramsay's creature as well.

[spaceviking]

I think in the book it was unclear if Reek was the one who fucked up Ramsay or Ramsay fucked up Reek. Regardless, I think the real Reek was messed up when he met Ramsay.

[Scrib]

The other Reek had fun. Theon has to do what he's told.

I did know that Theon was not acting under his own volition, but I was under the impression the first Reek was Ramsay's creature as well.

A willing creature as far as we know. Roose himself claims that he's not sure who made who worse but they seemed to feed off each other.Needless to say their relationship seems very different from what Theon and Ramsay have.

[Ralin]

Reek, however, was one of the best moments of A Dance with Dragons. Theon's redemption was pretty great. We don't see him at all in the book this season is based on, however.

My favorite part of Dance is still the scene where Roose Bolton is telling Theon about how he actually likes his fat Frey wife because she's cheerful and seems to enjoy it when he fucks her, and then goes on to note that Ramsey will undoubtedly kill her and their soon to be born child in a horrible fashion once Roose dies. And how that is very sad.

He's not going to do anything to stop it. But it's definitely very sad.

[Alferd Packer]

Roose also is of the belief that a child lord can only mean the destruction of his house, so he realizes Ramsay is a necessary, adult successor. In ADWD you can see him trying to give Ramsay advice on how to rule, but Ramsay is not going to listen.

[Esquire]

How old is Roose supposed to be? I'm wondering if there's a chance he'll live long enough to see a son by his Frey wife come of age, in which case I suspect he'd have Ramsay killed if the legitimate kid is at all competent.

[Alferd Packer]

How old is Roose supposed to be? I'm wondering if there's a chance he'll live long enough to see a son by his Frey wife come of age, in which case I suspect he'd have Ramsay killed if the legitimate kid is at all competent.

The book says he's well past forty, so that means he's older than Ned Stark (that is, in the books). I guess he doesn't expect to be able to live another 20 or so years it would take a raise his trueborn heir.

[Steel]

I'm getting a bit worried they are going to change how the shae thing plays out. Spoiler

I feel they might change it so tyrion doesn't kill her and chase after tysha, but might chase after shae instead.

This would make everything much more soppy and Hollywood. Would they really think the audience couldn't take the book horrorfest?

[Ziggy Stardust]

Ramsay really is a psychopath. He's actually going to get a lot worse in upcoming episodes/seasons.

That's unfortunate. I mean, I have nothing against a psychopathic villain per se, but the way the show has portrayed him has been more irritating than anything else. I mean, I'm not scared of his character, just annoyed at his smug villainy.

Does the storyline at least become interesting? Because so far the Theon/Reek/Bolton storyline has been dreadfully boring.


Also, another quick question for you book-readers: I am a bit confused about who rules the north at this point. The Boltons seem to think that they were promised the North by the Lannisters in return for the Red Wedding, but I thought Tyrion's wedding to Sansa was in order to secure a Lannister heir to the North? And since it is clear the Boltons don't yet have actual control over the North, is it just being ruled by some motley collection of former Stark banner men? Or do the Boltons control Winterfell but have yet to subdue all of the former banner men?

[Scrib]

Also, another quick question for you book-readers: I am a bit confused about who rules the north at this point. The Boltons seem to think that they were promised the North by the Lannisters in return for the Red Wedding, but I thought Tyrion's wedding to Sansa was in order to secure a Lannister heir to the North? And since it is clear the Boltons don't yet have actual control over the North, is it just being ruled by some motley collection of former Stark banner men? Or do the Boltons control Winterfell but have yet to subdue all of the former banner men?

The Ironborn control a good portion of the north. The remaining banner are apparently autonomous without Winterfell's leadership. I don't recall if any of those bannermen had some sort of organization by my impression was that they didn't. They each tended to their castles and defended against the Ironborn. And yes, they haven't quite been brought to heel by the Boltons yet, if only because it's been so soon after The Event.

As for Sansa: Tywin is an asshole. He makes a match for his family and has a back-up plan in case the Boltons fail. Whether he was actually going to place Tyrion and his child in Winterfell is anyone's guess. It's possible that it was just a way to stop the Tyrells from getting Sansa for themselves and he was essentially baiting Tyrion into it through the promise of a title. Who knows? It's never resolved. And, like with Elia, it depends on how you see Tywin.

How old is Roose supposed to be? I'm wondering if there's a chance he'll live long enough to see a son by his Frey wife come of age, in which case I suspect he'd have Ramsay killed if the legitimate kid is at all competent.

It would take too long and he'd have to piss off Ramsay for years before it even had a chance of success. Why? It'd only end the same way except with the added possibility of Roose dying. If he tries to grab onto every possibility he could lose them all.

[Esquire]

Admittedly, it's been a while since I read through the books, but I was under the impression Roose was well aware that Ramsay was a horribly unbalanced person who would inevitably get too clever for his own good. He was legitimized and made the heir because there were no other options; if a better one presented itself... well, I don't expect Roose Bolton to be held back by paternal affection, let's put it like that.

[Imperial Overlord]

I'm getting a bit worried they are going to change how the shae thing plays out. Spoiler

I feel they might change it so tyrion doesn't kill her and chase after tysha, but might chase after shae instead.

This would make everything much more soppy and Hollywood. Would they really think the audience couldn't take the book horrorfest?

No, I'm pretty sure they're loading it up for more shock/emotional impact.

[Ralin]

I'm getting a bit worried they are going to change how the shae thing plays out. Spoiler

I feel they might change it so tyrion doesn't kill her and chase after tysha, but might chase after shae instead.

This would make everything much more soppy and Hollywood. Would they really think the audience couldn't take the book horrorfest?

I'm starting to wonder about that too.
Spoiler

They've definitely whitewashed away a lot of Tyrion's more negative aspects for the show, and if I were them I'd be leery about showing probably their most popular and beloved character strangling a defenseless woman who loves him to death

Also, another quick question for you book-readers: I am a bit confused about who rules the north at this point. The Boltons seem to think that they were promised the North by the Lannisters in return for the Red Wedding, but I thought Tyrion's wedding to Sansa was in order to secure a Lannister heir to the North? And since it is clear the Boltons don't yet have actual control over the North, is it just being ruled by some motley collection of former Stark banner men? Or do the Boltons control Winterfell but have yet to subdue all of the former banner men?

The Ironborn control a good portion of the north. The remaining banner are apparently autonomous without Winterfell's leadership. I don't recall if any of those bannermen had some sort of organization by my impression was that they didn't. They each tended to their castles and defended against the Ironborn. And yes, they haven't quite been brought to heel by the Boltons yet, if only because it's been so soon after The Event.

As for Sansa: Tywin is an asshole. He makes a match for his family and has a back-up plan in case the Boltons fail. Whether he was actually going to place Tyrion and his child in Winterfell is anyone's guess. It's possible that it was just a way to stop the Tyrells from getting Sansa for themselves and he was essentially baiting Tyrion into it through the promise of a title. Who knows? It's never resolved. And, like with Elia, it depends on how you see Tywin.

In the books he outright says at some point that the plan is to let the Boltons bring the North to heel. Then once they've had to endure a winter of that Tyrion would roll in with Ned Stark's daughter and grandchild and everyone who matters would trip over themselves to help install them as the new Starks in Winterfell.

[Crazedwraith]

I'm starting to wonder about that too.
Spoiler

They've definitely whitewashed away a lot of Tyrion's more negative aspects for the show, and if I were them I'd be leery about showing probably their most popular and beloved character strangling a defenseless woman who loves him to death

I've heard that before but since i've only seen S1. I've not noticed much of this 'whitewashing' could you elaborate? And is it really that his actions have been whitewashed or is that we just don't have his internal thoughts telling us just how dark his thoughts are?

[Scrib]

I'm starting to wonder about that too.
Spoiler

They've definitely whitewashed away a lot of Tyrion's more negative aspects for the show, and if I were them I'd be leery about showing probably their most popular and beloved character strangling a defenseless woman who loves him to death

I've heard that before but since i've only seen S1. I've not noticed much of this 'whitewashing' could you elaborate? And is it really that his actions have been whitewashed or is that we just don't have his internal thoughts telling us just how dark his thoughts are?

First off: if the show chooses to not show the nuance is does it not make his character nicer?

But to answer:It's mostly his relationship with Shae. By changing Shae they've removed all the strange relationship dynamics. The general shadiness of him putting her in a house with a bunch of Valemen (ostensibly for security though it conveniently removes any romantic competition) is just general background on that relationship.

And given that she's in such a situation he then slaps her for a joke and takes away her jewels -from what we can tell her only payment- and sends her to the kitchens after she says that she hated it so much last time she ran away to be a whore. Now, some would argue that Shae chose to stay and that Tyrion would have let her go. Maybe. Maybe asking after your payment has been taken and you're living in a house full of said (potentially abusive) lordling's henchmen is a bit too awkward for people in her caste.Of course, Tyrion didn't send her away either.

Is it evil? Meh . Problematic and far more uncomfortable than what we got on the show? Absolutely.

Their whole relationship was pretty pathetic to be honest. I don't know if I would say that it's less pathetic than the TV version,but that's because I hate that one on a meta level.

One that I will give you depends on his internal thoughts is his reaction to being told that he'd marry Sansa. Sure, for a while he was as disgusted as TV!Tyrion but then, after being told about Winterfell, he warmed up quite nicely. The idea apparently appealed to him. Of course, he then offered to let her marry Lancel but again, a pessimist would ask why he didn't just give her Lancel. Sansa at this point has nothing to say except:"Whatever my sweet king Joffrey wants" why put her on the spot?

There was the breaking of the fingers of the singer who mocked him and the killing of another who was then put into the soup the people at Flea Bottom ate.

Kidnapping his nephew would probably fall under political acts though he was relieved that he didn't have to whip the boy as he promised Cersei (he used him as leverage when Cersei had one of his whores) because he knew that if he didn't she'd win.

There was also the arming of the raiding Vale clans because he wanted to punish Lysa Arryn but this may also fall under justified politics. YMMV.

Also: they cut out the part where he was forced to participate in Tysha's raping. He only watched in the show. By my own moral standard I don't think that this would count as whitewashing (I think he was coerced) but I suspect that it does for a lot of people and the writers have to care about said people. Might as well just leave it out.

A lot of the other stuff comes after the current position of the show. And some of that is...pretty bad.

[Crazedwraith]

First off: if the show chooses to not show the nuance is does it not make his character nicer?

True, it makes a character seem nicer. But if nuance is expressed through internal monologue than losing out on it is more or less a fact of adaptation to the visual medium to me not necessarily a choice by the show runners to whitewash a character. You've only got so much time you can't add expositionally speeches for everything, right?

Wow. I'd forgotten/never really realised how dodgey the Shae situation was from Shae's point of view. Just remembered how much of an idiot Tyrion was about keeping her. The kitchen thing, well she was being childish about that, she ran away from home because she was sexually abused by her father. But yes it was dodgy and Tyrion had all the power there.

So they missed out of him ordering Symeaon Silver-Tongue's death? Yeah, that really does count.

[Scrib]

First off: if the show chooses to not show the nuance is does it not make his character nicer?

True, it makes a character seem nicer. But if nuance is expressed through internal monologue than losing out on it is more or less a fact of adaptation to the visual medium to me not necessarily a choice by the show runners to whitewash a character. You've only got so much time you can't add expositionally speeches for everything, right?

If nuance was lost purely from expositional speeches and extraneous scenes and this didn't happen anywhere else I would find it easier to buy that it was merely an adaptation thing. But this seems like a pattern that pops up with other characters (where the time constraint argument doesn't apply) as well so I would bet on the writers having a view of the character they want to put forward.

In general though...it wouldn't be deliberate, but I would hope that the showrunners could somehow work important bits of characterisation back into the plot to prevent it from being whitewashing by default.

[Titan Uranus]

They did keep Tyrion raping Tysha, it's mentioned just before Tyrion's first battle, the one where he gets knocked out in the TV show.

Edit: It might have been just after that battle.

[Lolpah]

So they missed out of him ordering Symeaon Silver-Tongue's death? Yeah, that really does count.

Not really. Symeon tried to blackmail Tyrion and asked him to give pretty insane favours to him in exchange for not revealing his secret, despite Tyrion sparing him before even though killing him would've been convenient. It is a dark moment, but Symeon kinda deserved it and I can't see what else Tyrion could have realistically done at that point.

[Ralin]

Wow. I'd forgotten/never really realised how dodgey the Shae situation was from Shae's point of view. Just remembered how much of an idiot Tyrion was about keeping her. The kitchen thing, well she was being childish about that, she ran away from home because she was sexually abused by her father. But yes it was dodgy and Tyrion had all the power there.

Let's not overstate it. Book Shae never showed any signs of being particularly smart, but she was damned good at getting Tyrion to love her and I think she knew that she had him wrapped around her finger. Otherwise he would have done the smart thing and used his position of power to force her to get the fuck out of Dodge before his father found out. And given how terrified Tyrion was of his father that takes a hell of a lot of leverage.

They did keep Tyrion raping Tysha, it's mentioned just before Tyrion's first battle, the one where he gets knocked out in the TV show.

Edit: It might have been just after that battle.

The night before the battle with Bronn and Shae, and no they didn't. Tyrion says that his father gave her to his guards but he doesn't go into the full details and he doesn't mention that Tywin made him go last. Which I think was a mistake, both because it's going to detract from the impact some things later on have and because it goes a long way to explaining exactly how fucked up Tyrion is mentally.