You can shape a Medieval Nation (RAR!)

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You can shape a Medieval Nation (RAR!)

Post by Zor »

In this scenario, you are placed in charge of a nation at a late medieval (1400) level of technological development. Your objective is to see it develop and prosper. You shape this nation in two stages, first of all by laying out the general ways it carries about business (How land is managed, its system of government, the nature of its military, political position and so forth). And then setting it in motion, after which you remote control its head of state for a few decades.

This nation has an area about 150% times the size of France and similar climate. This nation has the following population distribution...

*The Capital City, this has a population of about 400,000, an administrative center and a center for manufacturing of high class items from fine dresses to the best possible weaponry and armor. It is inland, though does have a port city (population 25,000) about 100 km down a river. Literacy rate for the capital and the port are 20%, due to it being
*Twenty five regional hub cities with populations between 10,000 to 100,000 with a total population between them of 1,575,000 between them. Ten of these are port cities, which for the most part have larger populations due to fishing. These administrate provinces and have artisans and workshops in place for a variety of goods. All cities have walls. With each city having a specialty that its well known for (Weaponry, Shipbuilding, Textiles, etc). Literacy rates for these cities is 10% as urban society is less developed.
*4,000 towns with populations between 500 and 10,000 with a population of about 2,500,000 between them. These towns include minor ports on the coast and inland villages. These serve as centers of administration, manufacturing of small items such as and local commerce with markets and shops for making items mainly for the support of agriculture. Literacy rate of 2.5%
*22,500,000 peasants. Either living out of small hamlets were you have the local storehouse, granary, smithy and bar or in farm houses in near walking distance of said hamlet. These provide food for the cities, as well as timber, ore, stone and other raw materials for the population. Multiple households have to share certain bits of agricultural equipment, such as plows. Literacy rate of less than one percent.
*50 Castles: Built along western lines
*A Base Twelve number system. There are single digits for ten and eleven. 10 is twelve to them and is called a dozen, 100 is a hundred and forty four and is called a Gross, 1,000 is seventeen hundred and twenty eight and is refereed to as a Dozened, 10,000 is Twenty thousand seven hundred and thirty six and referred to as a Myriad (the next powers are referred to as Dozen Myriad, Gross Myriad, Dozened Myriad the a Bimyriad, Dozen Bimyriad, Gross Bimyriad, Dozened Bymyriad, Trimyriad and so forth). All numbers used in this list are used in this list beforehand are in decimal for your convenience

Technical aspects of how this nation is structured are up to you, your objective is to try to make it as successful as possible politically, socially and Economically. Shaping it to be as likely to succeed. But there are a couple of rules...

1-This nation does not have a democratic tradition.
2-The majority of the peasants do not own their land, even if they do live on it.
3-Outside of three options (listed at the end of this post) you can not introduce new technology

There is also the matter of defense, the forces you can gather are based around population mechanics. The financial output gathered from X-number of individuals in the nation can support the equipping and maintaining of the following types of combatants.

*10 People can support Public Armory Gear for one person: In a hamlet, town or city there is a building with a lock that is an armory. In which there are short spears and hatchets, the odd old sword and hunting bow and some wooden and leather shields locked away. In case of need, this door is unlocked and people are allowed to take gear that they want to fight. So the mob defending their town is now an armed mob and more likely to kill enemy invaders than they would with just farm tools.
*40 People can support a peasant militia man: peasants that are given some basic preparation for warfare. If they fight in close quarters, they get a axe, mace or spear, a shield and a helmet. If an archer, they get a helmet and a bow or crossbow. Some of them get their own suit of cloth or leather armor or maybe some heirloom chain mail, but most just go into battle with their regular clothes. Either way they get a week or so of training followed by practice once every month or for a few hours led by some old veterans. They can do some basic maneuvers, but are poorly organized. Mostly they defend their homes, but if the need arises some arrangements are made so they can be fed while on campaign.
*160 can support a Legionary: A full-time professional with armor. Constantly drilled and equipped for war, regimented and well supplied. They maintain formation where militias would have been broken, they stand their ground where militias would have routed and they stay calm when militiamen panic.
*320 can support a light cavalryman: A horseman who has several horses, some light armor and some weapons. They are fast, but can not charge.
*640 can support a heavy cavalryman: An armored soldier with several horses. Fast and deadly on the battlefield and capable of devastating charges.

This is a rough guide mind you. "Why is this important?" You may ask. Well, you are not alone. There are four other nations in this world that share it with you.

Northmark: A conservative Feudal Kingdom comparable in organization to France or England during the middle ages of comparable scale to your kingdom to the northwest, if a bit less advanced (1200s compared to 1400s), with the difference that this nation has its religion all to its own. Its armies are composed of Knights and Feudal levies, among them being English Longbowmen. The nobility of Northmark is known for a strong sense of chivalry (viewing ranged weapons as the tools of cowards) and is distrustful of new things that seek to disrupt its social order (particularly new technology). Some of Northmark's nobility wants your land. Northmark does not like the Seraphate and has launched crusades against it, it is distrustful of the Serene Alliance and trades with it, and gets along quite well with the Jade Empire. They use the Roman Numerals.
The Serene League: A loose (and we do mean loose) alliance of twenty city states to the southwest with some areas bordering Northmark that is roughly equal in size. The alliance is for defense against foreign aggression, outside of that they govern themselves independently and occasionally have small scale wars, even if assassination, political manipulation and espionage has become more popular as a means of handling differences of that type and this weakness can be exploited. Most of them are run by councils of guild representatives and rich landowners. The Serene League has a technological edge, particularly in architecture and weaponry. Serene League armor is considered the best around and they make use of gunpowder weapons, including cannons as siege weapons and weapons for their galleys and arquebuses. Its armies are composed of militias (ranging from peasant militias to well equipped guild militias), mercenary companies and rich landowners providing cavalry. The Serene League is a major trading partner with the Seraphate and is generally on good terms with them. They are distrustful of the men of Northmark, seeing them as crude savages run by thugs living out of mud and stick shacks but decent customers. They are currently engaged in conflicts with the Jade Empire, trying to forcibly open it up to trade while making black market deals. Use Arabic Numbers
The Seraphate: located to the southeast. It is slightly smaller than your nation. The Seraphate is a diverse but centralized state ruled by a monarch known as the Seraph and a class of slave bureaucrats and military officers that are given a license to collect taxes from certain areas and a judiciary of scholars who endlessly discuss the nature of the legal texts of the first Seraph. Its army is composed of cavalry archers (both heavy and light), levied infantry and an elite infantry force recruited from orphaned boys and young men collected in a "son tax". They get along well with the Serene League, are wary but not hostile to the Jade Empire along their eastern boarder and hate having to put up with Northmark Crusaders. Use Arabic Numbers.
The Jade Empire: An ancient and mostly isolationist nation of 30 million ruled by an Emperor and a large centralized bureaucracy recruited with an examination system to the east of the Seraphate, separated by a mountain range. The Jade Empire is technologically advanced, having movable type printing and gunpowder weapon in the form of Firelances, cannon and rocket artillery. They believe that their civilization is the height of civilization, and all others are inferior and they like to export their goods while charging huge tariffs on imports and limiting foreign trade to a number of small port cities. Its armies are composed of a combination of a hereditary class of non landed soldiers serving as heavy cavalry, heavy infantry and officers and conscripted rank and file infantry. The city states of the Serene Republic have been launching raids against the Jade Empire to try to force the Imperial Government to make things more equitable for them and have had mixed results in this. This has led to antagonism between them. They have a generally good relation with Northmark as they see them as useful tools against the Serene League. Rumor has it that they have been preparing a fleet and army to invade the Serene League.

Siding with one will have consequences.

In addition you are allowed to introduce to your nation one of three things that are useful to it in the longterm...

1-New World Crops: Bell Peppers, Potatoes, Tomatoes, Cotton and Corn were brought to your nation by a ship of crazed explorers from the Serene League who crashed on your shores and sold whatever they had to try to get back to their home port with their maps, and died on the way back, among them being some of those plants and seeds for them. That was two dozen years ago, now these crops are becoming more common. On top of making diet more varied and making your textile industry a bit more productive it means that your nation will grow in population in coming decades.

2-Gunpowder Weapons: without this, you are stuck with crude bombards that are prone to blow up in your face and handgonnes. With this you have Arquebuses, far more powerful and reliable cannons and Korean style rocket launchers in your arsenal.

3-Information Revolution: You have movable type printing in a few print shops near your capital. On top of that, a philosophical debate is becoming more common, as well as an interest in Natural Philosophy and anatomy. Small scale stuff now, but it will have its effect.

So how do you shape your nation?

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Re: You can shape a Medieval Nation (RAR!)

Post by Gandalf »

tldr
Zor wrote:So how do you shape your nation?
Like a big shoe, unless there's already some land that looks like that.
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Re: You can shape a Medieval Nation (RAR!)

Post by Kingmaker »

Medieval demographics aren't my area of expertise, but I'm reasonably confident that ersatz-France's urban population is unsustainably high.

I guess I better take the high tech foodstuffs. It sounds like I'm going to need them. Anyway, if I need guns, I can just buy them from the Italians. They sound too disorganized to think twice about something like that.
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Re: You can shape a Medieval Nation (RAR!)

Post by Esquire »

I haven't got time to go through the whole thing, but I'd definitely take the new crops. Potatoes alone would be a huge advantage, agriculturally speaking - they've got most of the nutrients you need for a balanced diet (the other two major vitamins are both found in milk) and if I plant the actual seeds rather than seed potatoes the chances of a country-wide blight drop significantly. I think I remember reading that large-scale potato farming tripled European food production after it was introduced; if that's even close to true I'll be able to field larger armies of stronger, healthier men than my enemies, and honestly, gunpowder weapons smaller than siege guns weren't really competitive until the flintlock was invented.

Regarding Kingmaker's demographics question - the population of France in 1550 was about 15 million, although famines were reasonably common. The physical size and the population size of (Insert Country Name Here) are both about 1.5 times larger than medieval France's; the numbers should work, particularly with the new crops.*

Also - why a base-12 number system? I get that adding detail to these threads is a good thing, but that just makes any calculating or army structuring people might try to do needlessly complicated.

*I'm assuming the city-dwelling poor are counted as part of the 22.5 million peasants. If not, I withdraw my statement that the given numbers will work out - more research will have to be done.
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Re: You can shape a Medieval Nation (RAR!)

Post by Ahriman238 »

Food takes precedence over improving literacy, much as it pains me to say.

How to shape the nation? By influencing it's politics and national character. Likely won't make drastic changes immediately since as far as I can tell we're doing just fine, no major enemies, reasonable commerce no plague shutting down large portions of the kingdom.
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Re: You can shape a Medieval Nation (RAR!)

Post by Carinthium »

A few questions for clarification:
1- To what extent are we allowed to introduce clearly anachronistic but non-techological reforms? Appealing examples include the Napoleonic Corps and Supply systems, a decisive battle doctrine, modern-style officer training, modern style capitalism(a major improvement over the guilds system), etc. Other possibilities include psycology as a science, the concept of science, nationalism, etc.
2- How far are we allowed to go in adopting a new tech without introducing it ourselves? Say, by conquering a Serene League City but allowing them to keep their autonomy so they can wield gunpowder for us?
3- Can we choose where the castles are? If possible, I'd like to put as many as possible on the Northmark border where they'll be most useful.

Assuming the situation is how it looks at first glance:
(NOTE: Actually requesting criticisms if anybody has any. In detail ideally)

-I will introduce:
-New World crops
-A Napoleonic-based corps system
-A Napoleonic-based supply system
-Merit-based (as opposed to feudal) advancement systems
-As much of modern-style officer style training as possible (I don't know how this works very well)
-Nationalism based on the idea of us as the only 'free people', along with enough freedoms to make the claim credible
-Modern-style capitalism
-The Scientific Method
-Psycology as a science advanced as far as possible (with double-blind experimentation, this could advance a long way without technology)
-Economics as a science advanced as far as possible (modern-day level economics could do a lot without technology)
-Women in the army (doubles the size of our potential military if it's part of the culture, even if women are weaker than men)

(NOTE: The age of adulthood will be 21. Not sure what category to put that in)

Culture:
The culture will value military glory as the highest good. To this end, those who gain glory in battle will gain lavish rewards that will make them set for life and will become automatic nobles if peasants. For a noble class to keep their privledges, they will be obliged to win military glory. However, glory through great strategy will be valued even higher than glory through actual fighting.

As an additional aspect of this, duels will be common and encouraged as social status determination amongst both nobles and peasants, and those with leisure time will be encouraged to spend most of it in modern-style exercise regimens in order to build up their physical strength. As part of this

The second highest good will be scientific innovation. Scientists will be given moderate wealth and noble titles as rewards for innovations. Innovations will be measured by objective and set standards- either selling well in the marketplace or being useful in battle (as judged by commanders). However, there will also be a set number of rewards per year (as determined by peer review) for theoretical innovations.

For those who cannot achieve military glory or scientific innovation, wealth will be the highest good. An American-style culture will exist in which it is said that if you're poor, you deserve it- same if you're rich. Hard work will be considered laudable, and those with wealth given high social status independent of their wealth.

Nobility will exist as an instititution, but be very different. It will be considered normal for a family to only maintain Nobility for one, maybe two generations and then fall back to Peasant status. About 3% of the population will be Nobles- 2% of the population earned through war, 1% of the population earned through science.

Religion:
The religion will reinforce the idea of glory in battle in particular- myths will have great warriors and generals ascending to become gods, an afterlife reserved for those who achieve glory in battle alone, etc. However, those who disobey orders in battle will be sentenced to what is basically Hell- an afterlife of eternal torment.

There will be one exception to the above rules- anybody who makes a sworn Oath and breaks it will automatically be sentenced to hell. In addition, this will be a religious offence which leads

To this end, there will be a Church (if with no political power) which basically spends its time reinforcing this message of glory in battle as the highest good. By the time of adulthood, hopefully, this will help people fight better.

Economic System:
The economic system will be theoretically as free as the Western world. In practice most land is held by land-owners and peasants have to rent it, but in theory they are free to do what they like- the only restraints are economic realities. Peasants can easily go to the cities to seek jobs if they want to.

A lot of modern capitalism will exist- future markets won't but stockmarkets will. Those who can persuade people to invest in them can go along to stockmarkets and start a 'corporation' where a share of their earnings go to the lenders. Limited slavery will exist- but only for those who go into debt and cannot pay it back.

Political System:
Basically a Noble's Democracy, with advancement to become a Noble based on merit of a sort. There will be a constitution which protects property rights, defines what Nobles are, ensures the state religion stays such, and allows for 'autonomy of the army'. (Basically, leaders of states have the right to declare war and peace, allocate the military budget, and hold the generals to account for it's use. However, the generals have the right to dictate military strategy and tactics and determine all aspects of military administration. State leaders can veto a choice for Grand General, the person who runs the army, but cannot appoint their own choice. State leaders are allowed to advise, but the Grand General can ignore this advice totally with no consequences).

By the Constitution, any individual will be by default a Peasant. If they gain merit as a Scientist or are awarded merit in battle by their deeds they will become a Noble. Nobles have the right to be tried by their peers, to automatic appointment to posistions of the sort that they earned their Nobility through, and to rights as Nobles in election.

The leaders of the State will be elected by the classes- but a Noble will be considered to have 3 votes, whilst a man of wealth (defined by being able to prove they are in the top 10% of the population in regards to their wealth) will have 1.

All individuals in the state, Peasant or Noble, will be Citizens. In practice the term is merely to distinguish from outsiders, who do not get votes. The government is allowed to strip people of their Citizenship and exile them for offences, or admit people into Citizenship (by default for a fee, but this can be waived).

Military:
The army will consist of 45% Legionary Infantry, 45% Legionary Archers, and 10% Heavy Cavalry. They will use set formations to fight different foes, with alternatives if the situation requires them- against Northmark in particular the 'Agincourt formation' (based on my historical inspiration- legionaries at the front with stakes set out and trenches if possible. If the enemy is in range, insults are shouted to provoke them. When they charge, the archers cut them down and the cavalry finish them off).

The navy will be far more secondary in both prestige and priority to the army. To partially compensate for this, their training will be based around tricks to try and board the enemy so the army contingent aboard can take their ship. The saying 'A big fish in a small pond' will be known and have the same meaning, and it will be considered typical and expected for those who want to be such to join the navy.

The nation's grand strategic doctrine (these have existed in history before- see Three Kingdoms plan, the French doctrine of 'natural borders' etc) will be to let the Serene League fight the Jade Empire whilst attempting to conquer 'backward' Northmark to introduce our style of freedom. We like the Serephate but like to keep them neutral as much as possible (in practice because we want the land for ourselves, in theory because the Serephate isn't free like we are).

If I'm wrong about interpretation:
I'll try to preserve as much of the above as I can, and see what I can work with.
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Re: You can shape a Medieval Nation (RAR!)

Post by Bakustra »

I shape the nation along the lines of Ming China, only with convenient hallucinogenics so I can get totally baked to ease away the knowledge that I am effectively a puppet for the schemes of my advisers, like any late-stage "absolute" monarch. I spend the rest of my (sober) days straining mightily to develop a socialistic means of industrial revolution, and should I by some miracle complete it, I then publish it anonymously. Apres moi, le deluge.
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I mean, how often am I to enter a game of riddles with the author, where they challenge me with some strange and confusing and distracting device, and I'm supposed to unravel it and go "I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE" and take great personal satisfaction and pride in our mutual cleverness?
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Re: You can shape a Medieval Nation (RAR!)

Post by Carinthium »

Bakustra wrote:I shape the nation along the lines of Ming China, only with convenient hallucinogenics so I can get totally baked to ease away the knowledge that I am effectively a puppet for the schemes of my advisers, like any late-stage "absolute" monarch. I spend the rest of my (sober) days straining mightily to develop a socialistic means of industrial revolution, and should I by some miracle complete it, I then publish it anonymously. Apres moi, le deluge.
I'm pretty sure you're wrong that that's the only way it can happen. At the very least, monarchs such as Fredrick the Great (and Napoleon, though given how non-traditional he was he hardly counts) show the exception. Others that I'm given to understand also vary from the alleged rule include Tsar Nicholas, Napoleon III, Louis XIV etc.
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Re: You can shape a Medieval Nation (RAR!)

Post by Bakustra »

Carinthium wrote:
Bakustra wrote:I shape the nation along the lines of Ming China, only with convenient hallucinogenics so I can get totally baked to ease away the knowledge that I am effectively a puppet for the schemes of my advisers, like any late-stage "absolute" monarch. I spend the rest of my (sober) days straining mightily to develop a socialistic means of industrial revolution, and should I by some miracle complete it, I then publish it anonymously. Apres moi, le deluge.
I'm pretty sure you're wrong that that's the only way it can happen. At the very least, monarchs such as Fredrick the Great (and Napoleon, though given how non-traditional he was he hardly counts) show the exception. Others that I'm given to understand also vary from the alleged rule include Tsar Nicholas, Napoleon III, Louis XIV etc.
Late-stage implies "after a certain period of time". All of those dudes barring Nicholas were all effectively the first absolute monarchs of their dynasty, and the Romanovs spent a long period being non-absolute post-Ekaterina. When your information comes through someone who only is only tangentially interested in accuracy, though, it becomes hard to rule effectively without being a puppet, and going on murder-sprees is generally self-defeating.
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I mean, how often am I to enter a game of riddles with the author, where they challenge me with some strange and confusing and distracting device, and I'm supposed to unravel it and go "I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE" and take great personal satisfaction and pride in our mutual cleverness?
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Re: You can shape a Medieval Nation (RAR!)

Post by Carinthium »

I don't know enough history to argue the issue, so I'll trust your judgement then (with the caveat that there are clearly exceptions, and that a monarch who wants to can sack one advisor for another if he thinks it best even if he doesn't have the info to figure it out).

Still, you could always make a system of government very different from absolute monarchy in this scenario. Nothing about the rules said you have to be a monarch or an absolute monarch. You could also use your structuring powers to try and make the nation sucessful anyway before you start.

(Incidentally, I would like to know what criticisms people have of my ideas for how to do that)
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Re: You can shape a Medieval Nation (RAR!)

Post by Zor »

Carinthium wrote:A few questions for clarification:
1- To what extent are we allowed to introduce clearly anachronistic but non-techological reforms? Appealing examples include the Napoleonic Corps and Supply systems, a decisive battle doctrine, modern-style officer training, modern style capitalism(a major improvement over the guilds system), etc. Other possibilities include psycology as a science, the concept of science, nationalism, etc.
For the most part. Institutions are allowed, although some are not always viable or will not be as effective in a pre industrial settings. However, science can not be introduced, even with the Information Revolution.
2- How far are we allowed to go in adopting a new tech without introducing it ourselves? Say, by conquering a Serene League City but allowing them to keep their autonomy so they can wield gunpowder for us?
Possibly, but you will still be at a disadvantage.
3- Can we choose where the castles are? If possible, I'd like to put as many as possible on the Northmark border where they'll be most useful.
There are Thirty Castles are located on the boarders (ten per bordering nation) with ten around the nation.

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Re: You can shape a Medieval Nation (RAR!)

Post by Carinthium »

In that case most of my plans still work. A few ideas, partially adjustments and partially addons (yes there's quite a bit- I'm quite bored lately):

-Are we allowed to simply import gunpowder weapons from the Serene League? I'm assuming no because that would almost entirely get around the problem, but just checking.

-Hire Serene League mercenaries whenever possible. This will allow for the use of gunpowder troops, after all
-Go for a generally laissez-faire (by modern standards) style economy, with corporations, banks, and shares existing as concepts. These can't compete as well under the circumstances as in the real world, but should outcompete guilds.
-Literacy should be seen as culturally prestigious and high status, and be encouraged by the government. This will encourage literacy, and thus innovation indirectly.
-A Napoleonic style corps and supply system should still work. As I understand it, this means several small corps each a day's march away from each other (since our relative quality is inferior to Napoleonic, as a variation we will have very small 'scout corps' ahead of these with the goal being to ensure we don't get hit by surprise). These troops will 'live off the land' (ie take food and loot from peasants). When the enemy is near, the corps will come together and prepare for battle.
-A meritocratic officer system, with it being considered possible (in theory) for anybody to ascend to the rank of Grand General through glory, will help. A cultural emphasis on merit will aid this process.
-The exception to the genral laissez-faire rule will be the existence of quality standards for goods. The general rule will be 'fit for purpose'. A customer buying a good will state what purpose they are using it for- if the good is not fit for said purpose, they have the right to their money back and the state will enforce this.
-The concept of hygine should be introduced. Even if only the upper class can actually exploit it in practice, this will extend lifespans. It may also be possible for cities to create
-The best of the army will be selected for the elite, with competition to join being encouraged. Selected based ability to fight (thus strength and skill will be tested), these will be known as the Commandos. Commandos will be given custom-made gear (however expensive this may be) to cater to their individual strengths and weaknesses in a fight and of much better quality (usually ordered from the Serene League thanks to their goods). The very best tactical leader in the army will command the Commandos, and they will be used wherever the fighting is hardest.
-At the very least the following extra military concepts/ideas will be introduced, if they don't exist already:
-Flanking
-Reserves
-Morale
-Decisive battle
-Tight v.s loose formations (for different circumstances)
-Rewards for all deeds of valour (even those which don't earn Nobility)- including set rewards promised before the battle to the first one to achieve some feat or the one who achieves it best (say, whoever slays the enemy commander)
-Death penalty for fleeing battle
-Focused fire (so archers can fire on an individual point in battle)
-Avoiding battle (circumstances in which it is best to avoid battle and wait for better circumstances)
-Supply (for fighting in our territory only- I don't want to lose popular support through raiding our own people)
-Double agents
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Re: You can shape a Medieval Nation (RAR!)

Post by madd0ct0r »

hmmm. given how big this country is, and france used to have famines in one part with surpless in another, I think i'll be looking at infrastructure and communications to start with. it's a big rar though, need another few days to think.
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Re: You can shape a Medieval Nation (RAR!)

Post by The Grim Squeaker »

This requires a lot more information about climate, geography, sea/river access.
Natural resources? (Forests, coal, metal deposites?). Do I have access to Cows, horses?
My rough aim would probably be based around Prussia after the reforms of Frederick the great and his father. That is, a focus on a totalitarian nationalistic state (secular to the extent of replacing religion with nationalism in the fashion of France). Would I have my current knowledge? (Allowing basic technological advances, such as smelting aluminium, hygiene, germ theory?). Other choices are more geographically determined.

EDIT: This is rather fun, in that I've been recently listening to an audiobook of Neill Fergusson's "Civilization", on the cultural aspects that helped give the West such crushing dominance. (Compared to other Eurasian cultures, the book does refer to "Guns Germs and Steel" frequently :)).
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Re: You can shape a Medieval Nation (RAR!)

Post by The Grim Squeaker »

At base, my cultural goals would be the elements of:
Economic competition, and adventurism (freebooters, privateers, encouraging trade and merchants, breaking down guilds, encouraging exploration and seatravel, assuming other continents exist in the RAR).
Ensure a basis of property rights, to a degree. (Allowing a crown monopoly, but erecting laws against, for example, kicking serfs off of their land).
Possibly some form of land reform, IF exploration and trade help find additional lands. Land reform would be based around economic maximal utility (area workable), and would require somewhere to shift the excess population - war or migration/colonization.
Empirical basis of government and thought. (Managing things according to how they are, and not how "god wills it"). AKA Enlightenment and the renaissance.
Encouraging literacy is pointless without cheap print. Can I make a printing press?
A tradition of national service would be excellent, if the economic resources exist to maintain it, and depends on the level of possible improvements to economic infrastructure, and the relative strength of nearby nations. I'd base it around the old tradition of expecting the landed nobility to raise regiments in proportion to their rank and wealth. (this would cause the problem of the nobility wanting to command no doubt, which would clash with military leadership reform).
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Re: You can shape a Medieval Nation (RAR!)

Post by The Grim Squeaker »

Carinthium wrote:In that case most of my plans still work. A few ideas, partially adjustments and partially addons (yes there's quite a bit- I'm quite bored lately):

-Are we allowed to simply import gunpowder weapons from the Serene League? I'm assuming no because that would almost entirely get around the problem, but just checking.

-Hire Serene League mercenaries whenever possible. This will allow for the use of gunpowder troops, after all
Mercenaries are expensive, and impractical as use for replacing an army. (They're good for security, enforcement, internal policing or augmentation; not national defense).
-Go for a generally laissez-faire (by modern standards) style economy, with corporations, banks, and shares existing as concepts. These can't compete as well under the circumstances as in the real world, but should outcompete guilds.
Why should they outcompete guilds in terms of tradesmen, there's no economic infrastructure to train craftsmen outside of the guilds and the apprenticeship system.
In addition, banks require property rights, and capital {for investment}.
-Literacy should be seen as culturally prestigious and high status, and be encouraged by the government. This will encourage literacy, and thus innovation indirectly.
You do know that the printing press is a 15th centuryinvention?

-The best of the army will be selected for the elite, with competition to join being encouraged. Selected based ability to fight (thus strength and skill will be tested), these will be known as the Commandos. Commandos will be given custom-made gear (however expensive this may be) to cater to their individual strengths and weaknesses in a fight and of much better quality (usually ordered from the Serene League thanks to their goods). The very best tactical leader in the army will command the Commandos, and they will be used wherever the fighting is hardest.
Special forces are...not that useful in medieval armies lacking ranged communications. You'd be much better off establishing elite heavy units, with no expense spared on gear. (In the fashion of knights, or full body armor, or steel weaponry).
-At the very least the following extra military concepts/ideas will be introduced, if they don't exist already:
-Flanking
-Reserves
-Morale
LOL. That's been around since around 1.4 millenium BC.
-Decisive battle
No such thing (as you mean it).
-Rewards for all deeds of valour (even those which don't earn Nobility)- including set rewards promised before the battle to the first one to achieve some feat or the one who achieves it best (say, whoever slays the enemy commander)
Bad idea. Soldiers>Warriors. And individual acts of valor is the realm of warriors. Rewards for bravery exist in every army on the individual and squad level, but setting it up systematically as a goal is a bad idea tm.
-Death penalty for fleeing battle
Very VERY Very VERY Bad Idea, for numerous and excellent (historic) reasons.
-Focused fire (so archers can fire on an individual point in battle)
Why would you want to do that? Archery is best aimed at a mass, and over an area - you're not fitting some RPG monster with high HP, the average peasant soldier will be dead if he gets hit by 1-2 longbow fired arrows. (And knight equivelents are better addressed with crossbows).
-Avoiding battle (circumstances in which it is best to avoid battle and wait for better circumstances)
No shit :P
-Supply (for fighting in our territory only- I don't want to lose popular support through raiding our own people)
the fuck are you talking about? Do you mean supply caches set up ahead of time? If you're fighting defensively, the enemy army will be living of your land regardless.
-Double agents
Older than Troy :P
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Re: You can shape a Medieval Nation (RAR!)

Post by Carinthium »

An important military point which affects several things I'm talking about here- my grand plan for the nation would be to invade Northmark and win Crecy/Agincourt style victories to gain ground until the enemy is forced to reform and thus gain much initial ground. Several of my ideas were made with this plan in mind.

1- Given the advantages of having gunpowder weapons, the disadvantages of mercenaries are likely outweighed- especially in small numbers.
2- Profit motive leading to competition. Apprenticeships could exist and possibly there would be be losses in quality control, but goods would likely be produced more efficienctly. There would be less equality, but I don't mind that.
3- Yes so there's an upper limit on how much literacy can come about. Even so, having a larger literate class than I would otherwise means more scholars and thus a slightly higher innovation rate, and slightly improves the potential for what I can do economically.
4- I WOULD be sparing no expense of gear. The Commandos would be something for soldiers to aspire to (as I think I said merit would be treated like modern America- in theory anybody can aspire to anything), but their purpose would not be that of real world commandos- instead, they would be dispatched to where the commander is most worried the army might rout.
5- OK I don't know history that well for some of those, but I'm pointing these out as compared to the fighting methods of a typical medieval army. The doctrine of seeking a descisive battle to win the war does exist in the real world- see the Japanese Kantai Kessen doctrine.
6- I'm fairly sure a typical medieval army did not have rewards for bravery for peasants. Discipline is important, but when enduring a cavalry charge keeping the line together and not routing is enough.
7- Care to elaborate?
8- Yes it's rare, but sometimes this could be useful- in particular, if you are trying to induce part of the enemy line to rout.
9- Yes, but necessary to emphasise as a formal rule to avoid the downsides of the Kantai Kessen doctrine- yes the goal is to fight a key battle to destroy the enemy, but you should fight that when the time is opportune.
10- No, I mean supply lines as in pre-Napoleonic warfare.
11- Not much spying in the Middle Ages, as I understand it. I was assuming that we're building on a medieval army.
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Re: You can shape a Medieval Nation (RAR!)

Post by madd0ct0r »

not much spying in the middle ages? Machiavelli might disagree.

Just for fun, let's do this as a SWOT anaylsis of Gaulex Inc.

Strengths:

Size - in both area and population, we're larger then everyone but the Jade Empire. Assuming stuff is distributed equally that means we likely have greater natural resources to draw upon, and a much more favorable 'number of men to border length' ratio. A large population is a large market (making trade with us more valuable to other countries, meaning war is less likely) and means we can use the large amount of land we have, have huge potential for later urbanization and can recover from minor disasters, losses ect reasonably quickly.


Climate - A french climate is brilliant for Old World crops, with relatively high protein in the wheat (compared to the north say). Likewise, while winters will be a nuisance, they won't be the complete lock down and shut down of the country it'd mean further north.

Seas and Ports - we have access to river ports and sea ports, by far the easiest way to trade and shift goods at the time. Fishing will be a valuable food source that's independent of seasonal weather (unlike grain)

Pre-existing Castles - Limited use since gunpowder is starting to sweep the world, still useful against the biggest military threat (the Northmark)


Weaknessess

Peasant Population - a large population of unlanded peasants means a large population of potential rebels with little to loose.

Surrounded by 'friends' - while we are potentially stronger then any of our neighbours, a grand alliance of them could be impossible to subjugate. Also, given the state of their goverments, rational behavior might not always be the best predictor.

Slow response time - sheer size of the country and state of communication tech will make it very hard to centralize anything, since response and decision making feedback will be so slow.

Disease - Best laid plans of mice and fleas could undo social fabric very easily. Little can be done to counter this initially.


Opportunities:

The regional cities already have their own specialisms, indicating that some sort of manufacturing base is already present. Introducing the idea of specilization of labour, and long barn type workshops could significantly lower the cost of most manufactured goods.

Since the choice of social fabric is up to me, I might follow the Chinese method of Military Mandarins and Civil Mandarins (with a third category of Mariners for Port cities). These will have duties to fufill and quotas to meet each year. While most things are allocated fairly obviously, Civil Mandarins maintain the police force, with the right to draft soldiers in an emergency, while Military Mandarins are tasked with maintaining the roads, with the right to draft engineers for an urgent project. Mariners are responsible from ship yard capability, warships and safety of fishing fleets.

to encourage innovation, I would hold region level 2 year competitions, open to anyone. Each broad category (military, civil, marine) will have two prizes - Material prize for the best new device / technology / improved sheep and a Cerebral prize for best new insight / theory. At the regional level, prizes would be lump sum of gold for example. At the same time there'd be a fair, jousting ect ect. The winners from each region go into the National level competition.
The National Level competition would have different prizes for the Material and Cerebral. Material would be a large cash prize, and free use of a King's workshop for a year. The Cerebral prize would be free food and accommodation at the King's pleasure for life.
After the first year, blockprint drawings of each regions winners in each category are to be distributed to every mandarin, who is to display them publicly.
Certain designs or ideas may be illustrated in song or stories to aid wider dissemination.
After the first few decades, I would seek to build a cloister for the Cerebral winners in one of the regional cities, keeping them out of the buzz of court, but readily available for the king to seek counsel.

Clearly, to hold the kingdom together, good roads and communications will be important. So while establishing a tolled road system will be a high priority, toll collectors will also have a duty to speed the kings messengers - in effect hopefully similar to the pony express service. Likewise, a large network of informants and watchers will be useful. They will report directly to the crown.
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Re: You can shape a Medieval Nation (RAR!)

Post by Carinthium »

Machiavelli lived in the Rennasaiance, although to be fair upon checking a few sources it seems you're right about the Middle Ages.

As for your ideas, they seem to be effective in making the nation stronger but more conservative than they need to be. The scope of the exercise allows for making advancements in economic and military theory (as long as they aren't scientific or technological) and you could take advantage of that.

Other than that and curiosity about your diplomatic strategy in your first fifteen years, I can't see anything major to criticise if you're allowed to do it all (it depends what counts as science).
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Re: You can shape a Medieval Nation (RAR!)

Post by Simon_Jester »

Carinthium wrote:1- Given the advantages of having gunpowder weapons, the disadvantages of mercenaries are likely outweighed- especially in small numbers.
What advantages? We're not talking flintlock/bayonet infantry here, are we?
2- Profit motive leading to competition. Apprenticeships could exist and possibly there would be be losses in quality control, but goods would likely be produced more efficienctly. There would be less equality, but I don't mind that.
The peasant uprisings will. Do you know how you get ahold of the population needed to run industrial revolution-style factories? Hint: it's more complicated than you might think.
4- I WOULD be sparing no expense of gear. The Commandos would be something for soldiers to aspire to (as I think I said merit would be treated like modern America- in theory anybody can aspire to anything), but their purpose would not be that of real world commandos- instead, they would be dispatched to where the commander is most worried the army might rout.
Is this the best use of a heavy cavalry or heavy infantry unit?

I'm beginning to wonder how much tactics you really know...
5- OK I don't know history that well for some of those, but I'm pointing these out as compared to the fighting methods of a typical medieval army. The doctrine of seeking a descisive battle to win the war does exist in the real world- see the Japanese Kantai Kessen doctrine.
And gee, that worked out brilliantly for them in World War Two.

There are a variety of ways for an enemy to deny you your precious decisive battles. Lots of castles, lots of light cavalry, just plain good tactics of the Fabian school... Plus, Great Big Battles aren't necessarily a good idea if you might, y'know... lose. Many wars have been lost by arrogant morons who thought they could crush the enemy with one swift smashing attack by their obviously superior army.
6- I'm fairly sure a typical medieval army did not have rewards for bravery for peasants.
How do you know?
7- Care to elaborate?
Because armies have to retreat sometimes? Because soldiers who are convinced you'd just as soon kill them as the enemy can turn on you? Remember that you're not dealing with mind-controlled slaves: convince too many people with too many resources that they're better off without you, and you'll be dodging daggers, arrows, and poisoned cupcakes for the rest of your life.
8- Yes it's rare, but sometimes this could be useful- in particular, if you are trying to induce part of the enemy line to rout.
What makes you think your archers need to be specially trained for "all of you, shoot that patch of ground?"
9- Yes, but necessary to emphasise as a formal rule to avoid the downsides of the Kantai Kessen doctrine- yes the goal is to fight a key battle to destroy the enemy, but you should fight that when the time is opportune.
Then what practical significance does this have? You're basically just saying "A commander should avoid a battle when he should avoid a battle, and fight a battle when he should fight a battle." Which is pointless and circular and I bet your generals and feudal underlings will laugh at your pompous absurdity.

Do you have insights on when each kind of thing, avoiding or seeking battle, should be done? If so, please share them.
10- No, I mean supply lines as in pre-Napoleonic warfare.
...Uh, then this makes no sense. How is this concept of "supply" some kind of revolutionary genius thing on your part? Do you understand the constraints of medieval logistics? Tell me, what is the easiest way to move supplies? Is there any practical limit on how far you can move supplies like food without that special easy way? If so, why?
11- Not much spying in the Middle Ages, as I understand it. I was assuming that we're building on a medieval army.
I question your understanding of "it."
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Re: You can shape a Medieval Nation (RAR!)

Post by madd0ct0r »

Carinthium wrote:Machiavelli lived in the Rennasaiance, although to be fair upon checking a few sources it seems you're right about the Middle Ages.

As for your ideas, they seem to be effective in making the nation stronger but more conservative than they need to be. The scope of the exercise allows for making advancements in economic and military theory (as long as they aren't scientific or technological) and you could take advantage of that.

Other than that and curiosity about your diplomatic strategy in your first fifteen years, I can't see anything major to criticise if you're allowed to do it all (it depends what counts as science).
The Rar was produce a successful, stable nation, not an all conquering behemoth. Conservative works.
The most radical thing I've been considering is how to encourage or trigger land reform, since that would massively improve productivity and social stability, but it also goes explicitly against the RAR's rules.
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Re: You can shape a Medieval Nation (RAR!)

Post by Carinthium »

As a point that affects several things, I will point out for emphasis that you seem to be forgetting that we can dictate the culture. Humans aren't tabula rasa, but can be molded to an extent by culture- and are a lot willing to go along with opressive or nonsensical institutions they have been raised from birth to be used to than ones newly introduced.

EDIT: In addition, pointing out for emphasis that my whole plan is based around fighting a series of wars with Northmark whilst exploiting the rivalry between the Serene League and the Jade Empire as well as Northmark-Serephate rivalry to avoid a coalition. The doctrines introduced have their flaws later on, but the nation will have time to adjust later.

1- I'm talking small squads of musketmen. As I said, my whole game plan is based around invading Northmark and enduring heavy cavalry charges- at least for intimidating the horses, muskets will likely be useful (as shown by early musket victories- I think under Gonzalo de Cordoba amongst others).
2- Most of the peasants in practice will be living a feudal lifestyle with the slightly better aspect they can rent. Craftsmen will be higher status than peasants (thus they don't feel so much they have nothing to lose), and will be encouraged by a culture based on the more capitalistic traditions of the real-world United States to work hard and compete for sucess- any revolts due to capitalism will be urban revolts, and thus easier to suppress.
(It's also worth noting corporations won't have much influence over the government if any, which will culturally cleave much closer to the way a nation followed capitalist theory perfectly would than real capitalist nations have historically)

4- As I said- my whole plan is based around attempting to win Crecy/Agincourt style victories against Northmark. Given that, it probably is the best use of elites. Elites are necessary culturally as an extenstion of the competition ethos, so they may as well be used.
5- Again, fighting Northmark here. Their nobles are not the sort to use Fabian tactics, their knights are heavy, to a limited extent their castles can be destroyed with rented artillery (and if we live off the land supply is not an issue so when desperate at least we can ignore castles), and so on. With an army optimised for fighting Northmark, slightly higher population than Northmark, superior technology etc, descisive battles are the best way to advance.
6- I don't know directly, but it wouldn't make any sense. Judging from writers such as Froissart, war at the time was seen mostly as a competition with knights- peasants were even less significant than mooks in modern action movies, and were treated with much prejudice.
7- Yes I have Aspergers so I may have judged rashly, but I thought retreat under orders was an implied exception so obvious as to not need mention. World War I did not have soldiers switching sides, and Northmark is not the sort of power likely to secure it. In addition, if this is part of the culture to begin with it is unlikely that the people will spontaneously rebel against it.
8- I didn't say specific training- I said the concept would be introduced. I just wanted to make sure my commanders were aware of the possibility for when useful.
9- I was assuming that we were introducing these things as PART OF THE CULTURE. Anyway, the doctrine is that the war should be won in a single decisive battle (as opposed to a vague lack of plan to win, or as opposed to winning via means other than a single descisive battle), and that the entire plan should be based around attempting to secure such.
10- It isn't revolutionary genius as I'm ripping off history obviously- but I'm assuming the Middle Ages are our starting point. From what I've learned of the Hundred Years War, supply lines were subordinated to simply raiding the enemy for needed food. Basically, I'm apeing 1700s-style methods- baggage trains etc.
11- I admit I made a mistake on this point. My knowledge is that of a first-semester Melbourne University student- admittedly not much compared to any actual professional, but likely good for an amateur. (Yes if you can prove me wrong that suggests you have better knowledge and it may be true that I am poor by the standards of Stardestroyer.net- the idea I should be considered pathetic on the point is what I'm refuting here)
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Re: You can shape a Medieval Nation (RAR!)

Post by Carinthium »

Also, forgot to point this out but as the objective was maximum feasible political, social, and economic sucess I was going for such. Grand-scale conquest is feasible, therefore I went for it.

Also, come to think to think of it Simon_Jester what would you do in the given scenario? I'm curious to know if you're willing to tell.
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Re: You can shape a Medieval Nation (RAR!)

Post by madd0ct0r »

hmmm. Napoleon conquered Europe twice. does that make him successful? He impoverished france doing so, and failed to keep his conquests, twice.
Richard the Lionheart left England in much worse state then when he started.

I understand your argument in 'we can shape the culture to be whatever,' but for my experience at least, people are people are people.

The vast majority want stability, food, a safe house and the promise of a future for their children. If you do not provide that, then any 'cultural' reinforcement is a temporary patch.

Confuciusiam is a 'religion' dedicated to social stability, but China had many bloody rebellions (peasant or lord led)

Christ's teachings were remarkably clear and pacifistic, but how did that turn out?

Catholicism was a huge and dominating social power, but it was split by amorous kings and reformers who considered it to have strayed from it's true purpose. Cue many bloody wars, and the reduction of all involved.

Nationalism has led many many countries to start wars they think they can win and don't. The worst example I can think of is Prussia, which today doesn't exist as it was considered to dangerous to be allowed to survive by it's neighbors.

of the three neighbours you can hope to beat:

The Serene League: Are unlikely to attack you if you're trading with them, but would unify against you, and with their tech would be expensive to subdue.
The Seraphate: Again, unlikely to attack you if you're trading with them, and have a small but elite army capable of defeating the Northern Crusaders multiple times. Is the benefit from defeating them greater then the cost of invasion and the opportunity cost of lost trade and investment?
Northmark: Most likely to invade you and least likely to succeed. They haven't even made a dent in the smaller Serpahate, despite trying. Their alliance with the Jade Empire is reminiscent of Spain's support of Scotland against England, and just like Scotland if/when you conquer it you'll have a big lump of land with backwards infrastructure, a very rebellious population, a new landing point for the Jade Empre's rumored fleet and a constant drain / training ground for your military forces for the next few centuries. Oh. And sod all taxes.

EDIT: hmm, I'll work up a diplomatic approach and army structure for the first few decades later.
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Re: You can shape a Medieval Nation (RAR!)

Post by Carinthium »

I was acting on the assumption from the information given that Northmark was a comparable power depsite it's backwardness to the others- which implies far more land than Scotland. Depending on other circumstances the land could be annexed (creating an empire comparable to Russia in it's backward phases- massive population despite it's weaknesses), or local elites could be appointed friendly to us and able to consolidate their power (in a deliberate attempt to copy the circumstances of the collapse of Alexander the Great's Empire, as that worked out well enough in terms of Hellenisation).

The rebellious can be punished using colonisation tactics of the sort Machievalli advocated (and which were sucessfully carried out in Northern Ireland). The Jade Empire's army and fleet are most likely to be used on the Serene League, who know they are coming- it will only be a problem if they are sucessful by a large enough margin to conquer the League and unlike historical China wish to put the effort into doing so.

As for the point of culture, perhaps you could clarify in more details the plans of my scheme which you think would fail for that reason and why?
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