"Game of Thrones" on HBO (spoilers)

[Ahriman238]

Ned has a simple problem, he's too damn honorable for his own good. Most characters suffer from this to a greater or lesser degree Spoiler

at least, until the Red Wedding

it's part of the baggage of living in a medieval society. And Ned is one of the few characters who wasn't raised to be some great lord, that was his elder brother, he still considers himself a simple soldier.

I thought at least part of the message of ASoIaF is that living in a medieval world kind of sucks, and there's no reason to believe the addition of magic will make it any better. People generally live short lives full of violence and/or pestilence. There's no plumbing, no heating except for maybe a fireplace and armies can trample your land, ravish your wife and daughter and take everything you own pretty much whenever they feel like it. If you happen to be born a woman, the highest you may aspire to is to not get raped or murdered, marry a strong man and bear him several children, barring exceptional circumstances. Basically, Life Sucks, but you have to make the most of it.

[Elfdart]

I wouldn't call Arya "smart", at least not yet. She just had the luck to be with a professional swordsman when the Lannister Men came to take her prisoner, and was even about to go with them until Syrio stopped her.

For a 10-year-old kid.

Crazy, but why would you think they're stupid?

You're the guest in the castle of a family you don't trust, so you decide to pork the king's wife there? That is insanely stupid.

Being a skilled medieval military leader does not make you a skilled politician (and vice versa), particularly when you're completely out of your element. Ned's used to politics in the North, where he's the top dog and everything is much more straightforward.

So in the North it's an effective tactic to tell your enemies what you intend to do before you do it?

That said, he wasn't oblivious when making the decision to tell Cersei. Even he knew it was a dangerous one, which is why he didn't rebut Varys when Varys asked him what madness possessed him to do it. He did it because he wanted to give Cersei a chance to save her children from slaughter.

And he didn't think she'd respond the way she did? He tells her he's going to tell the king that he's been cuckolded and that she'd better grab the kids and run because the king is going to track them down and kill them all when he finds out. One doesn't need to be a political genius to figure out that the queen and her family will do one or more of the following:

1) Run and hide -never mind that Cersei has nowhere to run and her husband would hunt her down anyway.
2) Stay and let her husband kill her and her children.
3) Try to kill her husband so he can't come after her, followed by a palace coup against Stark.

You know what's funny? Stark is such a moron that evil though she was, Cersei deserves some measure of sympathy. What mother in her right mind wouldn't pull out all the stops when she and her own children are threatened with death?

Blame Lysa (Catelyn's sister) for that, not Cat. She was in charge of Eyrie, and she basically hijacked the situation when Cat showed up with Tyrion. There was nothing Cat could do - she can't simply have Tyrion taken away from her sister's men.

She was only able to hijack the situation because Catelyn insisted on taking the long way back to her stronghold.

[Guardsman Bass]

You're the guest in the castle of a family you don't trust, so you decide to pork the king's wife there? That is insanely stupid.

The only reason they were spotted at all was because Bran is a climber who happened to wander their way. It's risky, but they've been doing this for years.

Being a skilled medieval military leader does not make you a skilled politician (and vice versa), particularly when you're completely out of your element. Ned's used to politics in the North, where he's the top dog and everything is much more straightforward.

So in the North it's an effective tactic to tell your enemies what you intend to do before you do it?

No, just that he's out of his element.

That said, he wasn't oblivious when making the decision to tell Cersei. Even he knew it was a dangerous one, which is why he didn't rebut Varys when Varys asked him what madness possessed him to do it. He did it because he wanted to give Cersei a chance to save her children from slaughter.

And he didn't think she'd respond the way she did? He tells her he's going to tell the king that he's been cuckolded and that she'd better grab the kids and run because the king is going to track them down and kill them all when he finds out. One doesn't need to be a political genius to figure out that the queen and her family will do one or more of the following:

1) Run and hide -never mind that Cersei has nowhere to run and her husband would hunt her down anyway.
2) Stay and let her husband kill her and her children.
3) Try to kill her husband so he can't come after her, followed by a palace coup against Stark.

You know what's funny? Stark is such a moron that evil though she was, Cersei deserves some measure of sympathy. What mother in her right mind wouldn't pull out all the stops when she and her own children are threatened with death?

He did think she would make a move. Why do you think he tried to get Littlefinger to bribe the City Watch into his service, so that he could arrest Cersei and her brood?

Blame Lysa (Catelyn's sister) for that, not Cat. She was in charge of Eyrie, and she basically hijacked the situation when Cat showed up with Tyrion. There was nothing Cat could do - she can't simply have Tyrion taken away from her sister's men.

She was only able to hijack the situation because Catelyn insisted on taking the long way back to her stronghold.

Catelyn ran off to the Eyrie because she thought it would be safer than if she tried to head North, which was the predictable path (even Tyrion was thrown off his guard by it). It was . . or would have been, if her sister wasn't insane.

[Ahriman238]

You're the guest in the castle of a family you don't trust, so you decide to pork the king's wife there? That is insanely stupid.

Is there a good place to pork the King's wife? Somewhere it's absolutely certain you will never be caught? Some activities are inheritably risky. A tall tower with no one around to hear you and no worries about people peeping through the windows sure sounds like a good start though.

You know what's funny? Stark is such a moron that evil though she was, Cersei deserves some measure of sympathy. What mother in her right mind wouldn't pull out all the stops when she and her own children are threatened with death?

And right there is the problem. Ned is too kind and honorable to run a kingdom, he takes pity on Cersei, he tries to spare her and Joffery the only way he can, by giving them a head start. Is it the smart thing to do? No. Is it the right thing to do? Considering everything that happens afterwards, no. Is it the believable, honorable act of an old soldier tired of killing people who may or may not deserve it? Yes.

[septesix]

People tend to view Eddard revealing what he knows to Cersei based on what happened afterwards, and that is just flat out wrong.

At the time when Eddard confront Cersei, it was the merciful things to do. Roberts is coming back in a few days, and once he heard about this revelation, his wrath will be terrible indeed towards Cersei and the three children. Eddard might as well give them a head start to get out alive. It was a good idea, given what Eddard knows at the time.

There was no way he could've known that Robert will end up on his deathbed before he get a chance to talk to him about this.

Once you kept that in mind, you'll see there was nothing stupid or moronic about his confrontation with Cersei. You really can't hold that one against him. (maybe some of the later ones, but even those might be debatable)

[The Yosemite Bear]

now if the Lannistars have been going the anchient egypt route for that long, why haven't they gotten more fucked up than that? So how many generations before we have a house full of bleeding, rejects from deliverance?

[septesix]

now if the Lannistars have been going the anchient egypt route for that long, why haven't they gotten more fucked up than that? So how many generations before we have a house full of bleeding, rejects from deliverance?

The only Lannisters engaging in incest are Cersei and Jamie. Targaryens on the other hand had been doing it for over 300 years. The result were like, to quote from the book , "God throwing the dice and the realm holds its breath"

[Setzer]

Even the Targaryens sometimes married into other families. There's mention of the Velaryons who resemble Targaryens because of past intermarriage, IIRC King Viserys I married an Arryn woman, and then a Hightower after the death of his first wife. King Daeron II married a Dornish princess to bring Dorne into his Kingdom. So even that House bred outside the family every now and then.

[Vympel]

Further to that, the book of genealogies Jon Arryn and Ned used to find out that Robert's kids weren't really his said that a Baratheon had once before married a Lannister (it was the issue of that coupling - black-haired - that clinched it for Ned in the book - all of Robert's bastards were black-haired as well, yet all of his supposed issue by Cersei were golden haired).

EDIT:- just realized were talking about Targaryens. Silly me.

Anyway, just finished the first book. Killer ending. Saw it coming, of course.

[Elfdart]

You're the guest in the castle of a family you don't trust, so you decide to pork the king's wife there? That is insanely stupid.

Is there a good place to pork the King's wife? Somewhere it's absolutely certain you will never be caught? Some activities are inheritably risky. A tall tower with no one around to hear you and no worries about people peeping through the windows sure sounds like a good start though.

The only "good" place to carry on like that is back home or in a truly isolated place because there's less chance of people who already regard you with suspicion catching you in the act.

You know what's funny? Stark is such a moron that evil though she was, Cersei deserves some measure of sympathy. What mother in her right mind wouldn't pull out all the stops when she and her own children are threatened with death?

And right there is the problem. Ned is too kind and honorable to run a kingdom, he takes pity on Cersei, he tries to spare her and Joffery the only way he can, by giving them a head start. Is it the smart thing to do? No. Is it the right thing to do? Considering everything that happens afterwards, no. Is it the believable, honorable act of an old soldier tired of killing people who may or may not deserve it? Yes.

I'm talking about sympathy from the viewer. If Ned were anything but a retard, she'd deserve immediate death or imprisonment, not sympathy. She should have never walked out of that garden. There's nothing "believable" about Stark's behavior unless Stark is an imbecile. You can plaster the word honor all over his actions as much as you want, but he's still incredibly stupid and that's a turn-off for a main character in a show about intrigue and skullduggery.

You have the same thing in Mary, Queen of Scots where Mary catches on to her half-brother's treachery and has him arrested. When her most loyal advisers tell her if she values her own safety she had better lock him up or kill him immediately because he will seek revenge, she not only lets him go, but sends him to England where he has already conspired against her before (and she knows this). Mary is a moron, and that's taking into account that James is her own half-brother. It's no surprise that she ends up getting beheaded because she does one idiotic thing after another and her enemies aren't so stupid. You end up almost rooting for Elizabeth because she's the only main character who isn't a nitwit.

[Ahriman238]

I'm talking about sympathy from the viewer. If Ned were anything but a retard, she'd deserve immediate death or imprisonment, not sympathy. She should have never walked out of that garden. There's nothing "believable" about Stark's behavior unless Stark is an imbecile. You can plaster the word honor all over his actions as much as you want, but he's still incredibly stupid and that's a turn-off for a main character in a show about intrigue and skullduggery.

Again, Ned is not a politician, he did not grow up in the sort of constant skulldrudgery that marks the court he lives so far from. He's in over his head, but coping reasonably well, how does this make him an imbecile? No, in Winterfell it's just Stark and his bannermen, whom he trusts implicitly and knows will obey his instructions. He's very much unused to dealing with people who have their own agenda besides the common good and fulfilling their oaths. He has certainly never had to ask himself if a man will carry out his orders, not since he was a youth and fought against Mad King Aerys.

For that matter, Ned was picked for the job because of his lack of experience with plots and conspiracies. In the abscence of Jon Arryn, Ned is the only man Robert can trust.

[Thanas]

Let us remember Ned's previous experiences. He was a ward to a very honorable man, somebody who held his honor higher than his life and raised his banners in rebellion against the entire kingdom when the mad king demanded Ned's life. This example spurred a rebellion which Ned and Robert then won.

So that means that practically all experience in politics Ned has is that if there are honorable men standing together, they will win.


Also, let us not forget that had Littlefinger not betrayed him, he would have won. If the Gold cloaks had done as Ned wanted them to, he would have won. This bears repeating - for all his faults, the single thing that screwed him over was Littlefinger. But so far, he had no reason to distrust Littlefinger. His wife vouched for him, Littlefinger helped Ned and covered up Robert's escapades etc. THis is even more pronounced in the books as well.

[Setzer]

I wonder how long Cersei had been trying to kill Robert before she finally succeeded. IIRC, she did her part to try and convince him to fight in the tourney, and then there was that "hunting accident" with Lancel and the strongwine. Even that wasn't guaranteed. Robert might yet have gotten away unharmed, if he were more sober or lucky.

[TheHammer]

I wouldn't call Arya "smart", at least not yet. She just had the luck to be with a professional swordsman when the Lannister Men came to take her prisoner, and was even about to go with them until Syrio stopped her.

For a 10-year-old kid.

Crazy, but why would you think they're stupid?

You're the guest in the castle of a family you don't trust, so you decide to pork the king's wife there? That is insanely stupid.

Being a skilled medieval military leader does not make you a skilled politician (and vice versa), particularly when you're completely out of your element. Ned's used to politics in the North, where he's the top dog and everything is much more straightforward.

So in the North it's an effective tactic to tell your enemies what you intend to do before you do it?

That said, he wasn't oblivious when making the decision to tell Cersei. Even he knew it was a dangerous one, which is why he didn't rebut Varys when Varys asked him what madness possessed him to do it. He did it because he wanted to give Cersei a chance to save her children from slaughter.

And he didn't think she'd respond the way she did? He tells her he's going to tell the king that he's been cuckolded and that she'd better grab the kids and run because the king is going to track them down and kill them all when he finds out. One doesn't need to be a political genius to figure out that the queen and her family will do one or more of the following:

1) Run and hide -never mind that Cersei has nowhere to run and her husband would hunt her down anyway.
2) Stay and let her husband kill her and her children.
3) Try to kill her husband so he can't come after her, followed by a palace coup against Stark.

Option 1 - She did have a place to run - her father. In fact, given the fact that Jamie was already there, it seemed quite reasonable to think she'd do just that.

Option 2 - Would seem to be unlikely, and even if it were chosen Ned's honor would be satisifed.

Option 3 - A remote possibility, dismissed by teh fact that he and Robert had successfully toppled the previous king and a long bloody war. I'm sure he was quite confident in their ability to deal with any attempt on His or Robert's life in a palace coup.

As noted before, the unforseen death of Robert made this look like a foolish thing to do, but had he lived it merely would have looked like a merciful thing.

[Vympel]

I wonder how long Cersei had been trying to kill Robert before she finally succeeded. IIRC, she did her part to try and convince him to fight in the tourney, and then there was that "hunting accident" with Lancel and the strongwine. Even that wasn't guaranteed. Robert might yet have gotten away unharmed, if he were more sober or lucky.

In the book Varys indicates to Ned that if it hadn't been the wine, it would've been falling out of a saddle, or a stray arrow - hunts are dangerous things. He wasn't going to come back from that hunt alive, most likely.

[Setzer]

But still, the possibility existed. IIRC, it was just Robert, Lancel, and Ser Barristan after Renly left in a huff.

[Thanas]

Hey Elfdart, after Camelot episode 9 you better not be saying that Camelot has smarter characters or better tactics. That was rank idiocy by everyone involved.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

I'm kind of tired of this incredibly bizarre notion that exists almost nowhere else I've ever been that characters making poor decisions means a a piece of fiction is bad, but it's a persistent idea here. Look at the reactions to No Country For Old Men, or this, or even some incidents I remember rather clearly where King Lear was attacked based on the fact that Lear acts like a jackass. I could just say that these people are massively missing the point of a lot of literature, but I honestly don't know where these feelings come from.

[Mr Bean]

But still, the possibility existed. IIRC, it was just Robert, Lancel, and Ser Barristan after Renly left in a huff.

That's show VS Book there. In the book it was Robert, Lancel, Sir Barristan and half the court plus the Hound+Joffery plus two members of the King's guard one of which... Spoiler

Ser Mandon Moore the dead eyed knight who tried to kill Tyrion and failed, a man with no friends or family and nothing remarkable about him and for some as yet unknow reason totally loyal to Cersei

[The Yosemite Bear]

I wonder what would happen if the Other Cerce had been force subbed from the Oddessy, whe would probably just turn the king into a boar, instead of having him killed by a boar....

[Thanas]

Cersei, not Circe.

[Elfdart]

Hey Elfdart, after Camelot episode 9 you better not be saying that Camelot has smarter characters or better tactics. That was rank idiocy by everyone involved.

As I said before, I like Camelot because it's so bad that it's almost good.

[The Yosemite Bear]

though it's pronaunced the same....

[Thanas]

though it's pronaunced the same....

No, it is not.

[Stargate Nerd]

Perhaps it would have been a good idea for Ned to bribe Littlefinger with a reward for his help rather then relying on Baelish keeping his promise to Catelyn. Or hell go to Janos Slynt directly and bribe him.