Watchmen. [SPOILERS!]

[JointStrikeFighter]

Attacking Military Targets would have made it worse. All Fly, or no Fly.

[Ryushikaze]

There was a line about him sneaking in to keep tabs on Ozy when he found out. For some reason, he never reported it, which was sort of an omission in the original work too, but seems moreso now since he was supposedly there for the express purpose of looking into Ozy's affairs instead of acting on his own initiative when checking out the Island.

The Comedian never reported it in both versions because he was convinced Ozy's plan would work. Wrestling with the morality of killing millions to save billions and the weight of keeping silent about it is what drove him to "confess" to Moloch.

That makes perfect sense given the Comedian's personality, but I don't recall that being made clear as to why he didn't tell anyone but Moloch.

[Samuel]

There was a line about him sneaking in to keep tabs on Ozy when he found out. For some reason, he never reported it, which was sort of an omission in the original work too, but seems moreso now since he was supposedly there for the express purpose of looking into Ozy's affairs instead of acting on his own initiative when checking out the Island.

The Comedian never reported it in both versions because he was convinced Ozy's plan would work. Wrestling with the morality of killing millions to save billions and the weight of keeping silent about it is what drove him to "confess" to Moloch.

That makes perfect sense given the Comedian's personality, but I don't recall that being made clear as to why he didn't tell anyone but Moloch.

I believe the rationale was Moloch was one of the few people he knew personally, much less considered a friend.

[Ryushikaze]

No, not why he told Moloch, that made perfect sense, he needed a confidant, and that's why he chose Moloch, but rather they didn't go over at any why he didn't inform any of his superiors or anything, save part of his incoherent ramble to Moloch.

It's not a major plot hole, but it is one that should have been addressed, especially in the revised version the movie used.

[KrauserKrauser]

Isn't the idea that he didn't tell anyone about it because he knew the plan would work and the whole 15 million vs. multi-billion casualties. If he told his superiors, they would stop Ozzy and nuclear war would happen but if he let Ozzy go ahead, 15 million would die but nuclear war would be averted.

[Grasscutter]

No, not why he told Moloch, that made perfect sense, he needed a confidant, and that's why he chose Moloch, but rather they didn't go over at any why he didn't inform any of his superiors or anything, save part of his incoherent ramble to Moloch.

It's not a major plot hole, but it is one that should have been addressed, especially in the revised version the movie used.

Again, he didn't inform his superiors because he wanted Veidt to succeed. The Comedian didn't agree with Veidt's methods but he knew it was the best chance for stopping the impending nuclear war.

As for why Moloch, the Comedian felt a level of personal relationship to Moloch and he knew Moloch wouldn't understand what the hell he was talking about.

Additionally, I forget where I read this and it might just be fan speculation but I think the Comedian either knew or suspected Moloch's apartment was monitored by Veidt. The Comedian both wanted Veidt's plan to succeed, and at the same time couldn't deal with going along with it (by allowing it to happen/keeping the knowledge hidden). Thus, he essentially committed suicide by confessing to Moloch knowing that Veidt would find out and come after him.

[Jim Raynor]

I agree that he wanted Veidt's plan to succeed, traumatizing to himself as it was. He was the one who told Veidt that superheroics was pointless, because nuclear war was coming anyway.

That makes his fight with Veidt in the beginning of the movie seem really out of place. When reading the comic (which reiterated the events of the Comedian's death several times), I never got the impression that it was a fight. More like a one-sided beatdown on an already-broken man. If the Comedian was so resigned to letting Veidt go through with his plan, then why the attempted gunplay and martial arts? I can see the Comedian struggling or making a few swings out of sheer animal instinct, but his self-defense seemed way too refined to me. And of course Snyder had to be Snyder, stopping the fight for slow-mo every two seconds.

The movie was a surprisingly faithful and decent adaptation of the comic. I thought it was decently made, and wasn't bored. However, it faithfully goes over the surface events of the comic while missing the heart (leaving out things like Rorschach blowing his psychologist's mind, or Jon initially being made to feel powerless by the way his father treated him). Hopefully those things will be in the director's cut. There was more action, which was commercially necessary and something I wanted to see myself. My problem is that too much of the action was overshadowed by Snyder's love of slow-motion. Not as ridiculously excessive as 300, but still there. Somebody needs to grab Zach Snyder and show him the Bourne movies or Casino Royale.

[Big Orange]

Don't be a grot, the Soviets would have expected such an action from the Americans for years and taken measures to prevent it by making the missiles hidden and/or mobile (much like the nuke trains they had OTL).

If it was as easy as you say, the Americans would have forced Dr. M to do it years ago. If they and Dr. Manhattan couldn't do it before, what makes you think Veidt and his S.Q.U.I.D. can?

I never said Veidt using the S.Q.U.I.D would be a good idea and would work, but it is the best option open to him (he'd set it up automatically to take out as many known nuclear sites possible, then skip Karnak before a Navy's Trident missile hits it). What he'll do after is problematic to say the least, he seemed crazy and ruthless enough to do something so rash, but he seemed to have the bases covered after Plan A ostensively succeeded if his corporation spearheaded the reconstruction of destroyed lower Manhattan and likely the other ruined urban areas worldwide (in theory pushing the different nations closer together in co-operation while rebuilding the smashed economy to his own ends).

Although if the Comedian in the movie was aware about the project at Karnak, so would some government spy eventually. Veidt covered his tracks in the movie, but not as well as in the comic where most of the squid project took place on a remote island and the science/artist team were sunk there, leaving nothing else.

Dr. Manhattan not getting every Soviet ICBM spammed over America and being purely reactive just demonstrates how disinterested in human affairs and very passive he really is: if he was really pro-active instead of reactive why didn't he go out and rid the world of weapons and corrupt leaders, then set up a Culture-style utopia? On a related note the disconcerted Soviets crapped out more nukes in response to Dr. Manhattan, however the more complacent US most probably made less nukes than in the OTL due to Dr. Manhatan taking up most the slack in their strategic plan for defence and counter attack.

[Ryushikaze]

No, not why he told Moloch, that made perfect sense, he needed a confidant, and that's why he chose Moloch, but rather they didn't go over at any why he didn't inform any of his superiors or anything, save part of his incoherent ramble to Moloch.

It's not a major plot hole, but it is one that should have been addressed, especially in the revised version the movie used.

Again, he didn't inform his superiors because he wanted Veidt to succeed. The Comedian didn't agree with Veidt's methods but he knew it was the best chance for stopping the impending nuclear war.

As for why Moloch, the Comedian felt a level of personal relationship to Moloch and he knew Moloch wouldn't understand what the hell he was talking about.

Additionally, I forget where I read this and it might just be fan speculation but I think the Comedian either knew or suspected Moloch's apartment was monitored by Veidt. The Comedian both wanted Veidt's plan to succeed, and at the same time couldn't deal with going along with it (by allowing it to happen/keeping the knowledge hidden). Thus, he essentially committed suicide by confessing to Moloch knowing that Veidt would find out and come after him.

Like I said, I get all that, I was just expressing a consternation at this never being adequately expressed in the context of the movie. I feel had I gone into the movie blind, the inadequate expression of why he never told would have irritated me quite a bit. From the comic, the why makes perfect sense, but in the movie, I do not recall it being laid out, even vaguely.

I think the Comedian knowing Moloch's place was bugged is just speculation, but in the context of the movie, it actually makes sense (less so in the comic, though it's still possible for him to find the records in that version), as he discovered the plan by reading Veidt's records on the matter.

[Revan's Fire]

I think the Comedian knowing Moloch's place was bugged is just speculation, but in the context of the movie, it actually makes sense (less so in the comic, though it's still possible for him to find the records in that version), as he discovered the plan by reading Veidt's records on the matter.

I personally thought that Veidt's assumption in Karnak (that the Comedian was driven to the brink of insanity and despair because war would no longer exist) was simple arrogance on his part, and that the Comedian, like the other Watchmen sans Dr. Manhattan was also horrified by the full extent of the plan, but knowing he couldn't tackle Adrian by himself, and not trusting anyone he turned inwards and cracked. I think Blake was smart enough to know that Jon wouldn't do anything about it, seeing the big picture, and his general apathy for the human condition.

[MKSheppard]

I finally watched the extended directors cut on Blu Ray earlier today -- and it was a pretty good film up to the ending.

One thing that's struck me now is how little Alan Moore thinks through his characters -- for example, Dr. Manhattan. If Manhattan's powers can be severely limited in that he cna't see the future clearly by simple LOLWHUT tachyon beams; wouldn't you know -- the Soviets have discovered this, and put billions of tachyon generators all over Soviet Russia, but on a much larger scale than Ozzy's little hand held gadget?

I mean, the Soviets have had 30 years to develop counters to Manhattan -- he's the primary threat to the Soviet Union, plus you can bet a billion 'advisors' were recording him strolling around Nam blowing shit up; and sending those recordings back to some lab outside moscow...

Additionally, yeah, the Soviets in the COLD WAR are SO going to let a CAPTIALIST like Ozzy build a shinny gadget in the middle of Moscow. :rolleyes:

Additionally, in the comic, Nixon is less of an idiot, for what it may.

[CaptainChewbacca]

What gadget was Ozymandias supposed to have built in Moscow? The only energy reactor was in antarctica. I don't know how he was firing it all over the world, but he didn't have machines-on-the-ground in each city.

[Shroom Man 777]

And Ozymandias could've built the tachyon devices because... I dunno... because he was actually working with Doctor Manhattan and their joint research to develop infinite energy actually involved learning about Doctor Manhattan's inner workings and Ozymandias and his scientists were being helped by Manhattan himself?

And... there's the little teeny-weeny thing with Ozymandias being the "smartest man in the world" or something like that. Maybe being the "smartest man in the world" allows him to do things that normal scientists can't do.

[Havok]

I got it and watched it tonight.

Great movie. The ending was just as good as the book. The use of Manhattan as the threat instead of the Squid works far better for me, although in a previous thread, I was apprehensive about it. The acting was top notch and the casting was stellar. This movie is by far my new benchmark for superhero adaptions with Iron Man a solid second.

The soundtrack was also outstanding.

[Vympel]

I finally watched the extended directors cut on Blu Ray earlier today -- and it was a pretty good film up to the ending.

You do realise you proceeded to tell no one anything about the extended director's cut, right?

What have they added? I've got in order, it hasn't arrived yet, since I got ripped off with the bullshit theatrical cut that I stupidly purchased without reading the fine print ...

[JLTucker]

I finally watched the extended directors cut on Blu Ray earlier today -- and it was a pretty good film up to the ending.

You do realise you proceeded to tell no one anything about the extended director's cut, right?

What have they added? I've got in order, it hasn't arrived yet, since I got ripped off with the bullshit theatrical cut that I stupidly purchased without reading the fine print ...

From here:

1. At the end of Rorschach's search of the comedian's apartment. Two cops enter, he knocks one of the cops out and jumps out the window as the other cop is firing his gun at him.

2. Rorschach has more comic book monolouge, throughout the movie. Though I'm only going to mention it once. (nothing but the good stuff too.)

3. Dan and Holis's visit is extended by seeing roschrach on TV. Hollis comments "It didn't stop him." (refering to the keane act.)

4. More scenes from the comic such as:

-- Before they walk into the alley we are introduced to the scene by the news vendor talking to Seymour delivering his papers.

-- When Jon says "leave me alone" everyone in the room disappears. Leaving him alone.

-- Cut back to Laurie and Dan at the end of the fight.

-- Laurie decides to go back to the military base and Dan meets with Hollis; they watch TV and learn of Jon's departure. Dan says laurie doesn't know. Cut to Jon on Mars and his story.

--The only major difference in this scene that I can remember is Jon talks about his symbol, slightly varied from the comic he says,"The boys in marketing wanted me to have a symbol. I said if I should have a symbol it shall be one I respect."

--Next scene is Laurie getting interrogated at the military base. They discover that Jon is on Mars and Laurie escapes and decides to go stay with Dan.

5. Rorschach has more dialogue from the comic with Dr. Malcom. Also in his story of the girl, the murder is shown as in the comic - walking outside, asking his dogs to bark, when they don't he draws his gun and enters the building.

6. Rorschach and Laurie argue on the rooftop of the jail; Rorschach more or less calls Laurie a whore. They escape.

7. Jon and Laurie begin their conversation as they did in the comic: "You're going to tell me you have been having an affair with Dan".

8. A few more interesting changes, happen.

9. Oh and Hollis talks on the phone with Sally, only to be interrupted by knocks at the door. He has a great montage death scene. They also explain why the knot heads go there at an earlier point.

10. In the bar, Dan sees the news of Hollis's death by knot heads and beats up one in the bar (knocks out like all of his front teeth. pretty brutal).

[Stofsk]

I feel crushed. I bought the theatrical cut when I could have waited to buy the above version.

[open_sketchbook]

Holy crap, the death of Hollis Mason is one of my favorite scenes... well, ever. We get to see a few of his 1940s enemies (including a guy in a bubble helmet and CAPTAIN AXIS) and despite his age and being heavily outnumbered, Nite Owl I fucking ruins the shit of the first few Top Knots to enter the room using some good ol' fisticuffs. The music in this scene, the editing, the flashbacks... I'm personally of the opinion that it alone justifies the extended cut.

[JediToren]

Also, during Laurie and John"s conversation on Mars, John gets his "I'm just a puppet who can see the strings," line, and they more clearly explain his perception of time and lack of free will.

I also second the sheer awesomeness of Hollis Mason's fight/death scene.

The flashbacks to the meeting in 1970 are greatly extended as well.

[Molyneux]

Holy crap, the death of Hollis Mason is one of my favorite scenes... well, ever. We get to see a few of his 1940s enemies (including a guy in a bubble helmet and CAPTAIN AXIS) and despite his age and being heavily outnumbered, Nite Owl I fucking ruins the shit of the first few Top Knots to enter the room using some good ol' fisticuffs. The music in this scene, the editing, the flashbacks... I'm personally of the opinion that it alone justifies the extended cut.

As long as I don't see the extended cut, Hollis Mason doesn't die.
I am completely fine with that. Fucking Moore...

[Jim Raynor]

Can anybody tell me what the purpose of Hollis Mason's death was? I'm asking because everything in Watchmen is deliberate and supposed to serve some kind of purpose. But Hollis was a background character who wasn't even involved in the main story, and his death seemed rather random to me.

[JointStrikeFighter]

Can anybody tell me what the purpose of Hollis Mason's death was? I'm asking because everything in Watchmen is deliberate and supposed to serve some kind of purpose. But Hollis was a background character who wasn't even involved in the main story, and his death seemed rather random to me.

HOLY SHIT ARE YOU DUMB?

It was fucking obvious that it was meant to show how the watchmen's brand of vigilante justice gets innocent people killed.

[Molyneux]

Can anybody tell me what the purpose of Hollis Mason's death was? I'm asking because everything in Watchmen is deliberate and supposed to serve some kind of purpose. But Hollis was a background character who wasn't even involved in the main story, and his death seemed rather random to me.

HOLY SHIT ARE YOU DUMB?

It was fucking obvious that it was meant to show how the watchmen's brand of vigilante justice gets innocent people killed.

I don't know...I think it was more Moore showing off his capacity for cartoonish supervillainy. "Ho ho ho, I am so evil...I kill off my own best character! How's THAT for evil, eh?"

[Stofsk]

No, I think JSF is right. The idea that Hollis Mason's death was made by Moore wanting to inject 'cartoonish supervillainy' makes no sense. The top knots are gangs, and these ones perpetrated a vicious home invasion with no real motive - and that's typical criminal gang behaviour. Now if Moore had written Doctor Doom invading Hollis Manson's home then you might have a point. But he didn't, so you don't. And Moore deliberately wrote against type for his supervillain. Watchmen trashes the whole concept of superheroes and supervillains. All you really have is self-appointed vigilantes who are little better than thugs and in some cases are mentally unstable and/or are criminals themselves (in the case of Rorcharsh and The Comedian).

[Molyneux]

No, I think JSF is right. The idea that Hollis Mason's death was made by Moore wanting to inject 'cartoonish supervillainy' makes no sense. The top knots are gangs, and these ones perpetrated a vicious home invasion with no real motive - and that's typical criminal gang behaviour. Now if Moore had written Doctor Doom invading Hollis Manson's home then you might have a point. But he didn't, so you don't. And Moore deliberately wrote against type for his supervillain. Watchmen trashes the whole concept of superheroes and supervillains. All you really have is self-appointed vigilantes who are little better than thugs and in some cases are mentally unstable and/or are criminals themselves (in the case of Rorcharsh and The Comedian).

No, no, I mean that Alan Moore was showing off his own cartoonish supervillainy.

I am not fond of that scene...largely because I am fond of Hollis.