Watchmen. [SPOILERS!]

[CaptainChewbacca]

It looked like the city destructions were going on a timer, and not all simultaneously, with either DC or Paris (I couldn't clearly read the labels) first. If the first casualty isn't soviet, that may keep the soviets off-guard enough to prevent them from launching.

[fgalkin]

It looked like the city destructions were going on a timer, and not all simultaneously, with either DC or Paris (I couldn't clearly read the labels) first. If the first casualty isn't soviet, that may keep the soviets off-guard enough to prevent them from launching.

This still doesn't mean they will all suddenly be all friendly with the US, does it? Unless Ozzy also vaporized all their nukes (we received no indication that this happened), they're in the same boat as everyone else, sans their biggest cities but unlike everyone else, THEY got all their nukes intact and ready. As Gil pointed out, they were prepared for the possibility of losing their cities to Manhattan, so they are in fact better prepared for this than anyone, and with their nukes, they are now the most powerful nation on earth.

Start learning Russian, comrades, because the Soviet Union has just won the Cold War.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[open_sketchbook]

Arguably, a better result than nuclear war, no?

[Gil Hamilton]

It looked like the city destructions were going on a timer, and not all simultaneously, with either DC or Paris (I couldn't clearly read the labels) first. If the first casualty isn't soviet, that may keep the soviets off-guard enough to prevent them from launching.

That's the thing. If DC was incinerated by SOMETHING and we already know that the United States was already rolling out their bombers because Nixon was planning to hit the Soviet Union first anyway, do you think the US wouldn't launch? It might not have been immediately obvious that Manhattan was responsible, other than there was a massive explosion in those cities and that it didn't show up on radar before hand. If the US launches, then the USSR would launch. They'd have no other choice.

Plus, I'm not convinced that the USSR wouldn't launch anyway. Keep in mind that the Soviets were probably EXPECTING a first strike and in fact the US government was planning one. At a certain point, with Moscow's destruction, there certainly would have been a break down in communications even if the remnant of the Soviet leadership didn't want to launch and some sites very well might have launched. Or for that matter, they could have written off the destruction of the other cities as Western lies.

There is alot of risk in Veidt's plan in the movie and way too many ways that his plan could have been interpreted as the opening blow in a nuclear war rather than a threat that would unite the world.

[Akhlut]

Uh, doesn't everyone remember the scene of Nixon and Kissinger in the war room with Kissinger talking to the Soviet Premier on the phone? They explicitly said that the blast had "Dr. Manhattan's energy signature" or whatever reason they could know it was Manhattan blowing up cities. That might delay things for at least a little while for the USSR to realize that it wasn't the US launching an attack.

[Erik von Nein]

So, I finally got around to seeing it last night. Pretty decent movie. I agree with most of the complaints. There were changes that were just unnecessary, such as the upped violence. Also, that was the worst Nixon impersonation I've seen in a while. Good lord.

The actors for Kovaks and Dreiberg were well cast, as was the Comedian. Silk Spectre II wasn't bad, but she wasn't that great. Nice body, though. Hah.

I found it funny that they gave a winking nod to the comic's original ending, by having "S.Q.U.I.D. Mode" on the control panel for the Manhattan energy device.

People complaining/making jokes about Dr. Manhattan's penis need to grow the fuck up. I went with a friend and couple of his friends and one of the first things they said "I feel sorry for the guy who's job it was to render the blue wang." Oie, lord.

[Gil Hamilton]

Uh, doesn't everyone remember the scene of Nixon and Kissinger in the war room with Kissinger talking to the Soviet Premier on the phone? They explicitly said that the blast had "Dr. Manhattan's energy signature" or whatever reason they could know it was Manhattan blowing up cities. That might delay things for at least a little while for the USSR to realize that it wasn't the US launching an attack.

First of all, define "energy signature".

Secondly, it is a nuclear scale blast that supposedly destroyed those cities. There AREN'T going to be survivors anywhere near ground zero and eye witnesses will describe a very large explosion. The American and Soviet Strategic Command aren't going to dilly dally when it comes to launching because they'll want to get as many of their birds and missiles in the air before they can be destroyed on the ground. Keep in mind at this point, both sides are EXPECTING nuclear war and the other side to launch. In fact, Nixon was planning to do exactly that. There is ALOT of room for nuclear war to be triggered by those cities being destroyed, in exactly the same manner that it happened in the movie Akira.

Thirdly, to the Soviets, even if they could immediately distinguish Doc Manhattan from a nuclear blast, that doesn't make a bit of difference because they were expecting that Doctor Manhattan might well be the American first strike against them anyway. "Doc Manhattan" destroying Moscow and preforming a decapitation strike would CONFIRM an American attack was underway in their minds, not cause them to pause.

The only reason that it didn't is the plot of the movie somewhat required it.

[Nephtys]

Ground Zero as was seen by Laurie and Dr. M in the movie looked nothing like a nuclear blast hit it. I don't remember even any fires in that scene, just crushed cityscape, as if force was brought to bear on one location that pushed everything over. A nuclear attack would leave a pretty ridiculously obvious firestorm and different pattern of devastation compared to a big, non-radioactive hole.

Considering that the rest of New York was operating as usual beyond the zone in a few weeks (the New Frontiersman office), there could be plenty of witnesses on site.

[AMT]

First of all, define "energy signature".

Energy signature: A term used to describe the unique energy that Dr. Manhattan wields which is capable of being recorded, monitored, and identified by people in the Watchmen universe.

...Simple enough.

[Akhlut]

First of all, define "energy signature".

Hell if I know what Kissinger was talking about on the phone with the premier, but the fact that both were on the phone and talking and somehow able to 'confirm' that Manhattan had struck all those cities indicates that there is something coming off of Manhattan that can be detected and traced solely to him.

Thirdly, to the Soviets, even if they could immediately distinguish Doc Manhattan from a nuclear blast, that doesn't make a bit of difference because they were expecting that Doctor Manhattan might well be the American first strike against them anyway. "Doc Manhattan" destroying Moscow and preforming a decapitation strike would CONFIRM an American attack was underway in their minds, not cause them to pause.

The only reason that it didn't is the plot of the movie somewhat required it.

The only thing I am disputing is that the Soviets and the US were on the phone and somehow able to confirm that it was, in fact, Doc Manhattan who had wiped a bunch of cities off the map. Why it happened that way besides director fiat? If I had to guess, I'd say that Ozy destroyed a few relatively neutral cities first so that everyone knew what was happening, and, somehow, through whatever unique radiation Doc Manhattan emits (and the Soviets would probably know what it is too, if they had some operatives in Vietnam or any facilities where the Doc worked), detect it with the blasts. That way, it looks like Manhattan went rogue and perhaps Nixon called the Soviets first and the Premier is a soft-hearted enough man to not engage in nuclear war without sure reason.

But, that's all speculation. All I remember from the movie is that Kissinger was talking to the Soviets on the Red Phone, and they somehow confirmed it was Manhattan, and that convinced everyone to at least hold back on the nuclear holocaust.

[Akhlut]

Ground Zero as was seen by Laurie and Dr. M in the movie looked nothing like a nuclear blast hit it. I don't remember even any fires in that scene, just crushed cityscape, as if force was brought to bear on one location that pushed everything over. A nuclear attack would leave a pretty ridiculously obvious firestorm and different pattern of devastation compared to a big, non-radioactive hole.

There were fires, but they were more like fires after an earthquake or other natural disaster.

[Big Orange]

Peter Jackson is a good example; I thought the first LOTR movie was fine (most of it's flaws were shared with the book) but the later movies increasingly changed things to 'the Peter Jackson Version' until by ROTK it was just awful and self-indulgent. I think Watchmen is like this in miniature, because the first act/third of the movie is pretty much spot-on. It's only later the choices and changes start to hurt the movie.

In my opinion, as with the LotR movie trilogy, the middle part of the Watchman movie was the weakest with sluggish pacing issues and glaring changes/omissions. I had no real issues with Dr. Manhattan on Mars, unlike with Rorschach's first official kill being unnecessarily tampered with, and the prison break was mostly a great segment (however we never see prison guards shooting up at Archie the owl craft).

The climax at Karnak actually seemed scaled down and compressed, to be fair, and while you can point out Veidt using Manhattan's energy would've potentially backfired into WWIII: what if Nixon perceived the psychic squid as the Soviet Union's answer to Dr. Manhattan and used it as a pretext to fire back anyway? Adrian Veidt built his Karnak stronghold in the icy depths of the South Pole for a reason. Veidt Enterprises not widely introducing electric cars until after the master plan concluded (as opposed to decades before in the graphic novel) was a visual demonstration that Adrian Veidt was going to be the main driving force in the New Order, a benign supervillain reshaping the global economy to his ends to secure his peace.

[fgalkin]

Or, the government just take him out and take his toys for themselves. They KNOW he's been working with Doctor Manhattan, making some sort of energy revolution, so he'll be the first one they'll ask about the crisis, anyway. And if he gives them any trouble, and he will, if his "I can buy you 3 times over" speech to the corporate tycoons is any indication, he will die or disappear.

He is smart, but he's not nearly good enough to go against the whole world. He's been largely ignored by the governments as a celebrity, but once he tries to challenge Tricky Dick or the Soviets, things will get rather...unpleasant for him.

To think that he could rule the world under the conditions he created is ludicrous. With the Giant Squid, he at least could have bullshitted them along, although his connections to the Institute, his Tachyon Satellites and other stuff would pretty much give him away. With him being the only link to Dr. Manhattan's power, he has no chance whatsoever.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Kon_El]

To think that he could rule the world under the conditions he created is ludicrous. With the Giant Squid, he at least could have bullshitted them along, although his connections to the Institute, his Tachyon Satellites and other stuff would pretty much give him away. With him being the only link to Dr. Manhattan's power, he has no chance whatsoever.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

He just set up the super that he is more knowledgeable of than anyone else as the big bad. The world will probably end up turning to him for guidance for how to defend themselves. The Satellites can easily be rationalized as a contingency plan to stop Manhattan that wasn't ready in time. Being the only link to the Doc's power is yet another reason he will be in demand. Fight fire with fire.

The movie end game sets Veidt up with more influence than the comic ending.

[Pulp Hero]

Pulp Hero's Journel,
March 14th 2009,
Re-watched Watchmen film again today. Previous viewing had too many whores and politicians. Too much talking. Small children bubbled over the seats like the foam of ill-conceived fornication.

Today's viewing was in nearly empty theater. Popcorn tasted of unwashed hands and stagnation. Overpriced.

[/R mode]

Okay, thoughts:

*Ozzie is indeed an arrogant asshole. And I'm not just talking about the giant Ramses statues everwhere.

For the smartest man on earth, his murder of the Comedian was very amateurish. He could have broken into the apartment and poisoned the Comedian's food and drinks, or planted a poison canister, and then gone back to remove the body. No one would have known or investigated, especially if the Comedian had been working for the government. He probably disappeared for months at a time anyway.

Instead he throws him through a window. This says a few things to me- First, that he didn't just want the Comedian dead- he wanted a sense of closure, or visceral finality when he killed him. Remember, the Comedian is the one who shot down Ozzie's plan to bring back the Watchmen as a group.

Secondly, he missed being a superhero. He isn't above the same emotions of Nite Owl or Silk Specter II. Ozzie wanted to go out "masking". Superheroing is like a drug that just can't be quit.

Third, I think Ozzie wanted the excitement of someone being on his trail. Arrogant.

Then, his password being "Ramses II" instead of a random word or number string.

Lastly, at his polar base, he was wearing his old superhero costume. It speaks of his mindset; he was not "Adrian Veidt" saving the world from itself, he was "Ozymandias". Also, I think he expected Nite Owl and Big R to show up, and had to be dressed to impress.

Thoughts.

[Big Orange]

He is smart, but he's not nearly good enough to go against the whole world. He's been largely ignored by the governments as a celebrity, but once he tries to challenge Tricky Dick or the Soviets, things will get rather...unpleasant for him.

Well Nixon is getting senile, overstayed his time in the White House, and lost his best muscle, the Comedian. And Adrien Veidt would be smart enough to have contingency plans in case his risky Plan A went awry: what if he fired up the S.Q.U.I.D generator at Karnak again and used it to launch surgical strikes on as many Warsaw Pact and NATO nuclear weaponry as possible. A risky margin for catastrophic failure and like Dr. Manhattan himself, the S.Q.U.I.D can't feasibly get them all, but enough to push the world leader's off balance, and help keep Veidt a few steps ahead of them.

[DPDarkPrimus]

The climax at Karnak actually seemed scaled down and compressed, to be fair, and while you can point out Veidt using Manhattan's energy would've potentially backfired into WWIII: what if Nixon perceived the psychic squid as the Soviet Union's answer to Dr. Manhattan and used it as a pretext to fire back anyway?

As Veidt explains in the graphic novel (and is oveheard amongst snippets of television reports) the artists bought in rendered experiences of alien landscapes in all forms of media and these were delivered in the psychic shockwave of the squid's arrival in New York City. As he says "mediums worldwide will have bad dreams for years to come".

[Stark]

Lastly, at his polar base, he was wearing his old superhero costume. It speaks of his mindset; he was not "Adrian Veidt" saving the world from itself, he was "Ozymandias". Also, I think he expected Nite Owl and Big R to show up, and had to be dressed to impress.

No shit; his whole goddamn plan needed them to be there, be humbled and brought on-side with regard to keeping silent. Just because he holds a grudge against the Comedian doesn't mean baiting Kovacs like that was a terrible thing for him.

Actually, doesn't the movie just ignore how Blake found out about the plan? He can't have spotted an island and snuck in one day like in the book; there is no island. He can't understand Manhattan and Veidt's work or penetrate Veidt's business.

[Ryushikaze]

There was a line about him sneaking in to keep tabs on Ozy when he found out. For some reason, he never reported it, which was sort of an omission in the original work too, but seems moreso now since he was supposedly there for the express purpose of looking into Ozy's affairs instead of acting on his own initiative when checking out the Island.

[Grasscutter]

There was a line about him sneaking in to keep tabs on Ozy when he found out. For some reason, he never reported it, which was sort of an omission in the original work too, but seems moreso now since he was supposedly there for the express purpose of looking into Ozy's affairs instead of acting on his own initiative when checking out the Island.

The Comedian never reported it in both versions because he was convinced Ozy's plan would work. Wrestling with the morality of killing millions to save billions and the weight of keeping silent about it is what drove him to "confess" to Moloch.

[fgalkin]

He is smart, but he's not nearly good enough to go against the whole world. He's been largely ignored by the governments as a celebrity, but once he tries to challenge Tricky Dick or the Soviets, things will get rather...unpleasant for him.

Well Nixon is getting senile, overstayed his time in the White House, and lost his best muscle, the Comedian. And Adrien Veidt would be smart enough to have contingency plans in case his risky Plan A went awry: what if he fired up the S.Q.U.I.D generator at Karnak again and used it to launch surgical strikes on as many Warsaw Pact and NATO nuclear weaponry as possible. A risky margin for catastrophic failure and like Dr. Manhattan himself, the S.Q.U.I.D can't feasibly get them all, but enough to push the world leader's off balance, and help keep Veidt a few steps ahead of them.

Don't be a grot, the Soviets would have expected such an action from the Americans for years and taken measures to prevent it by making the missiles hidden and/or mobile (much like the nuke trains they had OTL).

If it was as easy as you say, the Americans would have forced Dr. M to do it years ago. If they and Dr. Manhattan couldn't do it before, what makes you think Veidt and his S.Q.U.I.D. can?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Stark]

There was a line about him sneaking in to keep tabs on Ozy when he found out. For some reason, he never reported it, which was sort of an omission in the original work too, but seems moreso now since he was supposedly there for the express purpose of looking into Ozy's affairs instead of acting on his own initiative when checking out the Island.

Oh. I couldn't remember... but while it was somewhat plausible that he'd go commando, find out Bad Things and crack, it's hard to see him going through a warehouse's cabinets or haxx0ring a computer and then collapsing. It actually makes sense that he didn't really seem that upset in the movie due to poor acting?

[Ziggy Stardust]

And Adrien Veidt would be smart enough to have contingency plans in case his risky Plan A went awry:

Would he? After all, his plan was pretty god-damned stupid.

That's the only thing that really bothered me about the movie; the idea that the smartest man in the world can't come up with a better way to end the Cold War then blowing the shit out of major cities, killing millions, which would, of course, destroy the world economy and in no way guarantee a lasting peace. Up until the ending, the movie was beautifully complex, but the way they tried to resolve it was moronically simplistic. And I know someone is going to scream "MORAL AMBIGUITY" at me, but just being ambiguous does not make it complex, or even good. Hell, unlike the book, the movie barely even acknowledge that there was any ambiguity.

[Tsyroc]

I saw the movie today. At a 1300 showing I was in the theater all by myself. I wish that would have allowed me to have them stop it when I had to run out for a piss break.


Anyway, I thought the movie was okay. I have several version of the original story (comics, TPB, Ultimate) but I've generally felt that Watchman is a bit overrated so despite the stuff I own I'm definitely not the biggest fan.

I liked the changed ending, even though it sticks things on Dr. Manhattan. It completely does away with the need for there to be psychics, and creating a giant artificial life form that have bothered since I first read the story in 1986. There were elements of the giant squid invading from another dimension which worked better but I think the movie ending still comes out ahead.

I thought most of the acting and casting was good. The only one who bothered me is Silk Specter II and that's possibly because I recognized her from a terrible Ben Stiller movie that I got dragged to last year.

Visually, I just never came around to accepting Dr. Manhattan as anything other than a glowing blue CGI element. There were other times where he was doing his thing and it just didn't look real. Most of the time stuff he was doing did work but there were bits that just didn't work for me and they pulled me out of the movie.

I also thought the Nixon makeup was horrible and too exaggerated for as much as they showed him and did close ups. I thought the other famous people and celebs they included were good enough that I could go along with them but Nixon just screamed, "I'm a guy in a Nixon mask".

The movie also would have worked better with more subtle use of wire-fu if they wanted us to believe that these were real people who had no superpowers. It wasn't completely over the top like things would have been a few years ago but it did hurt the realism IMO.

Did anyone else think the musical choices were a little hit and miss?

I liked a lot of them, including the "Sounds of Silence" and "All Along the Watchtower" but questioned their usage in a film that was set in 1985. There's no reason the director had to pick music from 1985 but for some reason picking two songs from the 60s seemed out of place. I really did not like the version of "Hallelujah" they chose. I think the Jeff Buckley version would have worked much better in that spot.

As other people have said the opening credits were excellent.

All in all I thought it was pretty good and a decent enough adaptation of the comics. Really the comics aren't that spectacular either. I think they tend to get a lot of credit for a few cool elements and the fact that so much of the dense background material is included in the books themselves. It's something that Moore seems to like doing (Watchmen, LXG).

I'll still be looking forward to this being released on DVD but I really hope the super director's version doesn't splice the "Tales of the Black Freighter" into the live action movie because it'll be an element that I'll just be FFWD through. Just like with the books.

[Starglider]

the idea that the smartest man in the world can't come up with a better way to end the Cold War then blowing the shit out of major cities, killing millions, which would, of course, destroy the world economy and in no way guarantee a lasting peace.

Hmm. Would it have been any better if he'd picked military targets, i.e. destroyed bases and carrier groups? Or small towns with historic but not economic significance?