River vs Buffy (Serenity spoilers)

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Stormbringer
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Post by Stormbringer »

In other words you refuse to acknowledge the incident. Great. Next I'll have to post the Superhuman Reflexes List, won't I?
No, I simply find it inadequate proof to her having superhuman reflexes in combat. It proves that she occassionaly can pull off stunts like that. But from everything I have ever seen it's random, based a lot on luck, and something she has no concious control over. Perhaps that changed after Season 5 but I rather doubt it.

Where's your evidence for that?
The fact that the Nerd King tagged her for one?

No, it shows only what has caused her injury. Did you even read the list?
Can you explain what the relevance of that thing is? Because right now it's just dead weight.
Hold the phone. That's a blatant strawman. That is not my stance at all. I appologise if that is what I may have painted it as, but that was not my intent at all. The only claim I was making was that Buffy herself has superhuman reflexes. The Average vampire or monsters generally doesn't.
That's what I gathered from your less than perfectly coherent postings. If that's not what you're advocating, I have no problem.
For an apt example, check out every time Buffy has fought human opponents ("Band Candy", "Spiral"), she usually gets in more blows than her opponents in those cases.
Which given that she's supposed to have had some martial arts trainging is utter unsuprising. It doesn't require anything superhuman to be able to come out ahead. If you don't believe that, challenge a trained amateur boxer to a fight. Or a blackbelt. Trust me, you won't get in a hit.
I disagree. Though not truely obscene, I still think the durability against such weapons is worth noting.
I disagree, their advantage seems to be a natural indifference to pain and a somewhat quicker healing.

Did from what I saw. It's in the right location, and given how much of a twig she is and the depth of the wound, it more than likely hit the organ.

Does anyone know how far below the skin the Kidney lies?
Depends on the person, there is a fair amount of dense muscle over that which could feasably protect the organ. And it would be particularly effective if the stake didn't penetrate cleanly but at any angle what so ever.

Yeah, but one of my points is that her flesh is slightly denser than a normal human. Damnit, I can just see it sinking...
There's no hard evidence for it.
It's the real deal Indian knife (Had to be for the spirit in question to be killed by it). Given the general skill they had in making flint tools, I'd say it's pretty sharp. I doubt it fulled much snce then. Most flint blades I've read from that period are still functonal. But I could be wrong.
Well, it was killed by magic. Hard to take away much hard evidence from that.

But yes, a well preserved flint knife could indeed be functional. However, we have no idea whether the Sunnydale museum treated it well or not. But in general I'd imagine it's reasonably sharp.
Which is why I cited the incident, since a blade that sharp did NOT produce that much of an injury.
True but that's not necessarily because of any weird inhuman density. The far more likely explaination is that he simply didn't get a good cut in. And which is more likely?
Damnit, someone (likely me) should check--but it'd have to be in a few days (Darn you College!)
It would definitely help.
Do you want the list of "Blows taken without injury?" In fact, in season 2's "Ted" it was a plot point that he struck her and she showed no visible wounds at all.
I would assume that a Slayer is no cringing violet and I'm not debating that. But getting a pimp slapped and not bruising is not nearly the same as taking a round kick to the head and not feeling it. There are degrees of violence and Ted's Father of the Year concession slap isn't really up there. Honestly I would put her fisticuffs with Spike far higher.
Metanarritively, you've hit the nail on the head in terms of how the fighting really works. This is a world where pro-wrestling moves work on monsters, after all! Razz

Question: does this hold true when both combatants have skills in the fighting arts you site.
Pro-wrestling moves will generally inflict harm, it's just most are impractical with out a willing or semi-willing participant.

As for martial arts, yes it holds true. The idea behind any real martial art (as to some modern schools that are mostly sport and/or show) is an economy of blows. The idea is, as Alyeska pointed out, to utilize actions that end the fight, no matter what. Obviously a pair of skilled opponents are going to be able to evade, blocks, or otherwise prevent the opponent from getting a good hit. But once a good hit lands, it should affect them the same as any.
Hell, When Buffy cut someone's throat in Season 2's "What's my line" the original script had gallons of blood, but non appeared on screen.
The whole unrealism doesn't exactly help things.
Thankfuly it hit the heart. Still not sure how deep it penetrated. I'll have to wait for Wensday in order to make both checks. But given the Information GGS posted...my hypothesis may depend on how deep that sucker went.
And we know it hit the heart how? And do we know where and how badly? Techinically, just nicking it still counts as hitting. And it would explain how she bleed out so slowly. Unless she's got blood retaining forcefields, her blood would have been all over in a matter of a few seconds.
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Post by Stormbringer »

You know, I think it comes down to debating how badly Buffy will be feeling the blows River has it.
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Post by Alyeska »

Unless Buffy isn't human, she is still going to react to martial arts moves like anyone else. Its automatic body responses used against the body. Hit a certain nerve, a specific thing happens. Very basic martial arts can teach someone how to reliably disarm a knife from someone no matter how strong the knife weilder is. A friend demonstrated on me. I prepared for the blow and held the item tightly. He batted his arm and struck my wrist and I just suddenly let go and lost control of my hand temporarily.

Buffy is going to die when facing any martial arts master. She doesn't know how to react to such a skilled opponent.
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Post by Majin Gojira »

Oh god, so much to respond to...so little time. I'll be back in a day or two with the responses, data and some interesting revelations. It's a wonder what taking time off to think about a subject can reveal.
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Post by Majin Gojira »

FUCK! I just lost the long post response I whipped up...here's an attempted reconstruction...
Stormbringer wrote:No, I simply find it inadequate proof to her having superhuman reflexes in combat. It proves that she occassionaly can pull off stunts like that. But from everything I have ever seen it's random, based a lot on luck, and something she has no concious control over. Perhaps that changed after Season 5 but I rather doubt it.
Most of my evidence comes from Seasons 1-through 5. But there are compelling pieces of evidence. Including evidence of Slow-down.
- Dodging: Buffy dodges bullets from Darla (Season 1: Angel)
o What was dodged: Bullets, .45 caliber?
o Speed it was moving: Unknown
o Notes: Darkened room, 1 gun in each hand. 4 shots whilst Buffy rolled to dodge on a pool table. 9 more whilst running away and diving behind a counter, Darla was then lying down on a pool table that was pushed away by Buffy.

- Dodging: Buffy dodges bullets from Tarakan Assassin (Season 2: What’s my Line part 2)
o What was dodged: Bullets, .45 caliber berretta? (Standard police issue pistol)
o Speed it was moving: Unknown
o Notes: rolls over table to dodge, bullet hits table. She later runs, dodging 2 bullets aimed at her running from left to right (gunman’s view). Distance 10-20 feet

- Dodging: Buffy dodges face-Hugger Bezoar Neural clamp (Season 2: Bad Eggs)
o What was dodged: Bezoar Neural clamper
o Speed it was moving: Distance=8 inches, time=0.34 seconds
o Notes: none

- Dodging: Buffy dodges revolver shot (Season 2: Becoming Part 2)
o What was dodged: Bullet, from standard issue police revolver
o Speed it was moving: bullet speed.
o Notes: distance from shooter: 50 feet.

- Dodging: Buffy dodges rifle shot by ducking under it (Season 3: Homecoming)
o What was dodged: Bullet, from rifle w/scope
o Speed it was moving: bullet speed.
o Notes: distance from shooter: 50+ft away

- Dodging: Buffy dodges M-16 rounds (5) from 2 German assassins in hallway running from one room to another (d: 10ft) (Season 3: Homecoming)
o What was dodged: Bullets, scoped (Night-vision)
o Speed it was moving: bullet speed.
o Notes: distance from shooter: Less than 50ft away they were not on target for more than 0.167 seconds. They could not follow her movement. She ran between 10 feet before she was covered again.

- Dodging: Dodge magic lightning Blast (Season 3: Revelation)
o Speed it was moving (if applicable or deductible): traveled over 50 feet in 0.29167 seconds (or roughly 116mph)
o Notes: JUST dodged

- Dodging: Dodging Mini-gun bullets from Adam (Season 4: Primeval)
o Speed it was moving (if applicable or deductible): Unknown.
o Notes: Has a .5 second head start on Adams turn. Distance of Shooter is approx. 10ft. at all angles. As she moves, bullets seem to land about 1-2ft behind her before she reaches cover (where it decreases to 6inches before she dives behind it.

- Dodging: Dodging Sub-machine gun and M16 round (Angel Season 1: Sanctuary)
o Speed it was moving (if applicable or deductible): Unknown
o Notes: A Second gun-toting (same type) council member appears in a helicopter and opens fire, and they also barely dodge (the shots bouncing off the ground just behind them. Going from cover point to cover point. M16 from Helicopter.

- Hitting hard-to-hit objects: Catching thrown Knife (Season 2: Some Assembly Required)
o How small: Small Knife, 8 inches total)
o How distant: thrown from 9 feet off. Airtime: 0.4167 seconds
o How fast it was moving: 14.726mph
o What it was hit with: One hand catch, by the hilt. (blade towards her)
o Notes: It wasn’t even going to hit her head. It was caught 6 inches above her shoulder, 1 foot in front of it. Evidence of Slow Motion makes these numbers nearly invalid.

- Hitting hard-to-hit objects: Catching Hatchet blow from Kendra (Season 2: What’s my Line Part 1)
o How small: small, 1 foot in length
o How distant: Close up (within arm’s reach
o How fast it was moving: Unknown
o What it was hit with: 2 handed catch, stops the blow.
o Notes: None.

- Hitting hard-to-hit objects: Tarakan Assassin draws gun on Buffy, she catches it before she can level it on her (Season 2: What’s my Line Part 2)
o How small: small, caught wrists
o How distant: Buffy was standing 5 feet away when she begins to draw the gun. Elapsed time: 1 seconds
o How fast it was moving: unknown (distance of draw unknown)
o What it was hit with: 2 handed catch of wrists. Gun goes off in as well (misses)
o Notes: it was a pretty bad draw, actually. Not the fastest or most graceful draw in the world.

- Hitting hard-to-hit objects: Catching sword thrust from Angel (Season 2: Becoming Part 2)
o How small: blade an inch thick, 3 feet long
o How distant: thrust from 2 feet away (approx)
o Elapsed time: .75 seconds
o How fast it was moving: 2.6ft/second
o What it was hit with: 2 handed, open palm catch
o Notes: done with eyes closed (to concentrate)

- Hitting hard-to-hit objects: Catching club smack from Demon Guard (Season 3: Anne)
o How small: large club (2 feet long), big demon (6ft tall and built)
o How distant: swing covers 5+ feet?
o Elapsed time: .5 seconds
o How fast it was moving: 10+ft per second
o What it was hit with: forearm block
o Notes: None.

- Hitting hard-to-hit objects: Throwing a stake, hitting a vampire in the heart (Season 3: Bad Girls)
o How small: stake (6 inches long), big vampire (maybe 6 feet
o How distant: throw covered 50+feet
o Elapsed time: .834 seconds
o How fast it was moving: over 50ft per second
o Notes: None.

- Hitting hard-to-hit objects: Blocking Taser blast with Initiative guy (Season 4: The I in Team)
o How small: Narrow beam, blocked with large body—already partially in front of her.
o How distant: Moved the guy 3 feet in .5 seconds to block shot taken .125 seconds later.
o Elapsed time: for blast to travel: 15+ft in 0.375 seconds
o How fast it was moving: over 40ft per second.
o Notes: Approx. 12,000 volt blast knocked the man out for almost 2 hours

- Hitting hard-to-hit objects: Staking vampire (Season 5: Into the Woods)
o How small: Vampire’s heart
o How distant: 3ft above her (he was diving at her, she ducked and staked)
o How fast it was moving: moves 10+ft in 0.45834 seconds (or 14mph)
o Notes: Done at awkward angle.

- Hitting hard-to-hit objects: Catching a demon’s fist (Season 6: Bargaining Part 2)
o How small: fist-sized
o How distant: within stricking distance (less than 3ft)
o How fast it was moving: unknown
o Notes: None.

- Hitting hard-to-hit objects: Catching a demon’s metal Baseball bat (Season 6: Bargaining Part 2)
o How small: 3ft (broadside
o How distant: within striking distance (less than 3ft)
o How fast it was moving: unknown
o Notes: None.

- Random Agility: Flipping herself over chain link fence (grabbing the chain pulling her up, then flipping down). (Season 1: Teacher’s Pet)

- Random Agility: Kicking Hunga Munga into the air then catching it on the way down (Airtime: 5 seconds) (Season 3: Anne)

- Random Agility: Buffy steps in a Bear trap, realizes what she did and manages to pull her foot out before the trap closes. (Season 3: Homecoming). Had some semblance of warning from Cordelia before she puts her foot in it and sets off the trap. Slow motion makes exact calculations nearly impossible. (Season 3: Homecoming)

- Random Agility: Doing a hand-stand on a 2 by 4 by 2, then with one hand. Needs extraordinary concentration to do it. (Season 5: The Real Me)
- Random Agility: Flipped by Glory, spins twice and kicks Glory in the face and lands on her feat all in 2 seconds (Season 5: Blood Ties)
- Random Agility: Does a backflip kick on Glory (Season 5: The Gift)

- Running speed: running to push man from out of way of car (Season 3: Anne)
o Distance Covered: 50ft+
o Time Spent: 2.0834 seconds
o Estimated Speed: approx. over 24ft/second or over 16mph
o Notes: She gets hit by the car.

- Running speed: Moving from sitting position to pull the legs of a Hellhound (Season 3: The Prom)
o Distance Covered: 6 ft
o Time Spent: .75 seconds
o Estimated Speed: approx. 11MPH if done from standing position.
o Notes: None.

- Running speed: Catching Sobekite Spawn (Season 5: The Shadow)
o Notes: Sobekite Spawn moving between 28 and 55mph when able to calculate it.
Bolded my absolute favorite. She knowingly activates the trap (thanks to Cordelia's warning) and manages to pull her foot out. We've got speed in a surprising situation and in the middle of combat.
The fact that the Nerd King tagged her for one?
Honestly, that's a gross misrepresentation of what happened. She was getting Xander out of the way. And in true TV fasion, took a bullet for it. From the angle and tragectory. She pushed him out of the way, turned to face Warren and was nailed. Given how she's dodged gunmen in the past, it's prefectly in line with her abilities.
Can you explain what the relevance of that thing is? Because right now it's just dead weight.
That list focused on bladed weaponry. It's already a well known fact that Buffy is highly resistant to blunt-force trauma. It was for the Buffy's Durability angle to show what exactly caused her harm (in terms of bladed weaponry).
Which given that she's supposed to have had some martial arts trainging is utter unsuprising. It doesn't require anything superhuman to be able to come out ahead. If you don't believe that, challenge a trained amateur boxer to a fight. Or a blackbelt. Trust me, you won't get in a hit.
Which brings me to Holden (Season 7 "Conversations with Dead People")--Vampire and 2 year Tae-Kwon Do student. Beat him like any other Vampire...though they did talk quite a bit.
I disagree, their advantage seems to be a natural indifference to pain and a somewhat quicker healing.
In order to maintain Superhuman strenght, a level of superhuman durability is needed in order to not overly stress the user, correct? Buffy's resistance to Blunt Force trauma is well known. Her healing is slow enough to not have any effect of combat (until Season 7, and even then...not really). Buffy's restiance to blunt force trauma and falls is WELL documented (by me and others). I'm extending it to bladed weaponry, which would make logical sense given what she has been hit with and been injured by.
Depends on the person, there is a fair amount of dense muscle over that which could feasably protect the organ. And it would be particularly effective if the stake didn't penetrate cleanly but at any angle what so ever.
As the screencaps showed, it was at an angle. And given Buffy's power without apparently altering her body density, she needs the durability to even survive.
True but that's not necessarily because of any weird inhuman density. The far more likely explaination is that he simply didn't get a good cut in. And which is more likely?
Frankly, I'm not sure. It was a parrying blow, but the sheer non-depth of the blow is what is so startling.
Damnit, someone (likely me) should check--but it'd have to be in a few days (Darn you College!)
It would definitely help.
Still haven't, but In case I forget, I'm posting now.
I would assume that a Slayer is no cringing violet and I'm not debating that. But getting a pimp slapped and not bruising is not nearly the same as taking a round kick to the head and not feeling it. There are degrees of violence and Ted's Father of the Year concession slap isn't really up there. Honestly I would put her fisticuffs with Spike far higher.
You do remember the part where Ted's a "Goddamn Robot" right? From the 50s no less. Metal and Rubber, mostly.

Even if you state that it was a normal-human level blow, the fact that she showed absolutely NO injuries is a fact to consider.
As for martial arts, yes it holds true. The idea behind any real martial art (as to some modern schools that are mostly sport and/or show) is an economy of blows. The idea is, as Alyeska pointed out, to utilize actions that end the fight, no matter what. Obviously a pair of skilled opponents are going to be able to evade, blocks, or otherwise prevent the opponent from getting a good hit. But once a good hit lands, it should affect them the same as any.
Which is where Buffy's (and Vampires) ridiculous resistance to Blunt Force Trauma comes in.
The whole unrealism doesn't exactly help things.
It may help or hinder Buffy. Which, I'm not sure yet.
And we know it hit the heart how?

Visuals.
Here we see Xander applying pressure early on to the wound.
Willow magically sealing the wound

and IIRC Buffy's heart either flutters or stops (Great, ANOTHER episode to re-watch...)
And do we know where and how badly? Techinically, just nicking it still counts as hitting. And it would explain how she bleed out so slowly. Unless she's got blood retaining forcefields, her blood would have been all over in a matter of a few seconds.
It is possible, given her healing factor, that her blood congeals faster than normal. I've got lists of things things she survived, things that caused her injury beyong bladed weapons (Falls, blows, etc) AND how long it takes her to recover from certain wounds. I'm obsessive that way.

The other option goes with the mystical body density, as my theory holds. Xander does put pressure on the wound early on, but that would only go so far.
Alyeska wrote:Unless Buffy isn't human, she is still going to react to martial arts moves like anyone else.
Her structure is mostly human, but she is enhanced mystically. The strenght and resistance to blunt force trauma may well lower the effectiveness of certain precision strikes.

Be warned, the lists I have are very easy to access...
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Post by Stormbringer »

Might I point out at this conjunction, that River may just use her telapthic abilities to just kill Buffy that way? "I can kill you with my mind" is not an idle boast after all.
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Post by Majin Gojira »

Unless I see evidence for it, I'll discount it as just wittiness. Plus, there's the fun chance that River, whilst attacking Buffy mentally, will encounter an image of Things Man Was Not Meant to Know (Which have, canonically, driven people insane).
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Post by Stormbringer »

You know, instead of pouring out stupid lists full of only trivial analysis why not present a good case based on a few? Because this is looking suspiciously like the Darkstar method of simply putting out too much bullshit and exagerated claims to disprove.
Bolded my absolute favorite. She knowingly activates the trap (thanks to Cordelia's warning) and manages to pull her foot out. We've got speed in a surprising situation and in the middle of combat.
So Buffy has the ability to get out of the way of things, woo hoo. Most of those are not superhuman reflexes, the "bullet dodges" are not as you imply her pulling a Matrix. Instead she simply clears the line of fire, not terribly impressive as a human being can do that.

Others, such as the catching of weapons, appear to be genuinely peak-human reflexes, perhaps better. But they're also generally not taking place on a consistent basis nor can they be reliably counted on in combat as there are plenty of instances where her reflexes are considerably less.
Honestly, that's a gross misrepresentation of what happened. She was getting Xander out of the way. And in true TV fasion, took a bullet for it. From the angle and tragectory. She pushed him out of the way, turned to face Warren and was nailed. Given how she's dodged gunmen in the past, it's prefectly in line with her abilities.
She still got hit, yes? That rather neatly disproves she can dodge bullets. And of course there are plenty of times in a fight she's gotten hit. She is not consistently superhuman.
It's already a well known fact that Buffy is highly resistant to blunt-force trauma.
So in other word's you're assuming as much with out providing solid proof? You keep assuming facts like this with out providing a critical analysis; you're basically assuming the best possible case with no interest in alternate explanations.
Which brings me to Holden (Season 7 "Conversations with Dead People")--Vampire and 2 year Tae-Kwon Do student. Beat him like any other Vampire...though they did talk quite a bit.
I haven't seen the fight, so I can't comment. But most Tae-Kwon Do is geared more towards sporting and tournament sparring than actual fighting. It's not a particularly "hard" style and it's emphasises are such that it's not terribly great street fighting style. Buffy, having some genuine martial arts training, could definitely compete on a fair basis.

And two years, that could either mean a lot with a good school or very little if it's not. Hard to say with out seeing the actual fight. Though guessing, I'm willing to bet it's less Tae-Kwon Do anyway and more "Hollywood Coreographed Fight Flash" style. :P
In order to maintain Superhuman strenght, a level of superhuman durability is needed in order to not overly stress the user, correct? Buffy's resistance to Blunt Force trauma is well known.
Well know huh? And based on what? The only major fall I can think of its Faith's and that wound her up in the "funnest coma ever" as I recall.
I'm extending it to bladed weaponry, which would make logical sense given what she has been hit with and been injured by.
Actually, even if she is more resistant to blunt trauma that doesn't apply to blades. They operate by a completely different method, hence why practicioners of medicine and anatomy make the distinction.
As the screencaps showed, it was at an angle. And given Buffy's power without apparently altering her body density, she needs the durability to even survive.
Given that you acknowledge it was not necessarily a good wound, cannot be proven to hit her kidney, and the after math seems to indicate a shallow wound I find it a totally unwarranted to assume it should have been a fatal wound. Buffy's own behaviour is entirely incosistent with her having a mortal wound.

I'm sorry but this seems entirely like you have assumed the result you want, then made your case off the assumption.
Frankly, I'm not sure. It was a parrying blow, but the sheer non-depth of the blow is what is so startling.
Actually, if it is a parry it is to be expected. A parry is not an attack; it's a move meant to force the enemy off the offensive or to abandon an offensive move. So naturally it would not be a full out strike which would be reasonably expected to inflict a deeper cut.
You do remember the part where Ted's a "Goddamn Robot" right? From the 50s no less. Metal and Rubber, mostly.

I do indeed remember that much. But it's also programmed to mimic a human being and does so with complete success. So I think that puts an upper limit on how hard he could have hit her.
Even if you state that it was a normal-human level blow, the fact that she showed absolutely NO injuries is a fact to consider.
I acknowledged that it shows some resistance to damage. I agree that's part of the Slayer package. But a backhand (better known as a pimp slap) is not really meant to bruise or inflict lacerations.
Which is where Buffy's (and Vampires) ridiculous resistance to Blunt Force Trauma comes in.
You're obviously missing the point which should be patently obvious to any one with even a passing familiarity to fighting. The idea is not to inflict blunt force trauma (aka stupid hit and get hit fighting) or at least not primiarly. The idea is to use leverage to force submission, break bones, deflect blows; the idea is for a strike to provoke a specific reaction based on the way one's body works. To put it in simply terms, it's using their own reflexes and body motions against them.

It's not boxing where the idea is to just hit them until something gives.

Visuals.
Here we see Xander applying pressure early on to the wound.
Willow magically sealing the wound

and IIRC Buffy's heart either flutters or stops (Great, ANOTHER episode to re-watch...)
If some one was hit in the heart directly, it would not flutter, it would not falter then quite, it would flat out cease to beat. She would have bled out and died with in seconds at most. What happened does not seem to be consistent with that.

It appears, so far as I can see, that he hit her high and to the left, above her breat. The heart is actually in the center of the body which makes a direct hit all the more unlikely. Most likely he hit an artery or vein supplying it which is both more likely given the position and more consistent with how she actually went down.
It is possible, given her healing factor, that her blood congeals faster than normal.
Which doesn't explain how Tara bled less as well. More likely it's just one of those things that have to be ignored because it ultimately is television.
Her structure is mostly human, but she is enhanced mystically. The strenght and resistance to blunt force trauma may well lower the effectiveness of certain precision strikes.
True but her reflexes and body movements are all the same which means that she will still react to most of it in the exact same way.
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Post by Majin Gojira »

Stormbringer wrote:You know, instead of pouring out stupid lists full of only trivial analysis why not present a good case based on a few? Because this is looking suspiciously like the Darkstar method of simply putting out too much bullshit and exagerated claims to disprove.
Admittedly I don't know the majority of calculations, but I am trying to do the best that I can, damnit. I resent being compared to Darkstar. Nor do I like the accusation of fraud. That's just a low blow. Hell, the reason why I just post the raw numbers, so people can check the interpretations. And I point out where I have made estimations (such as distances).
So Buffy has the ability to get out of the way of things, woo hoo. Most of those are not superhuman reflexes,
Quite possibly, but I included them for the sake of completeness. Plus, I was a little rushed.
the "bullet dodges" are not as you imply her pulling a Matrix. Instead she simply clears the line of fire, not terribly impressive as a human being can do that.
Far from it. I made it perfectly clear in the "Homecoming" example. I don't see why you need to trivialize those instances given the "IDIOT MASTER CHIEF WANKERS" post in Other Sci Fi. As far as I can tell, Buffy's doing something closed to what the chief is doing (Albiet, not in the open, and probably slower).

I'm sorry if it appeared that I was intending it to be full Bullet-Dodging, but strangely, you saw it as I intended.

Life's just weird like that.
Others, such as the catching of weapons, appear to be genuinely peak-human reflexes, perhaps better. But they're also generally not taking place on a consistent basis nor can they be reliably counted on in combat as there are plenty of instances where her reflexes are considerably less.
Ok. Your turn for examples.
She still got hit, yes? That rather neatly disproves she can dodge bullets.
She dodges the line of fire. Not the bullet itself. Hell, she pretty much dodged for Xander.
And of course there are plenty of times in a fight she's gotten hit. She is not consistently superhuman.
She's also known for toying with her quarry (which bit her in the ass in Season 5). To me, it's more likely that she can move at those speeds but through arrogance choses not to.
So in other word's you're assuming as much with out providing solid proof?
Hey, I've argued Buffy Vs. Several times before, and others have admitted to this. But, if you want proof I can provide it.

Let me gleam through and get some highlights, instead of the full list:
- Blows taken w/o visible injury: hit by flatbed truck (Ford?) going at least 25mph (Season 3: Anne)
o Damage type: Bludgeoning
o Downtime: Unknown, commercial break. Minimum .5 seconds after stopping roll.
o Notes: Hit from the side, blow causes Buffy to roll up onto the windshield, as the truck breaks; it then throws her 5 feet off the hood of the truck (flipping over twice). Runs away from crowd after the hit. No sign of any injury.

- Blows taken w/o visible injury: Thrown by Lyle Gorch into Pinball machine (Season 2: Bad Eggs)
o Damage type: Bludgeoning
o Downtime: None
o Notes: No apparent injury from glass either.

- Blows taken w/o visible injury: Head shoved through several wooden planks in succession (Season 3: Homecoming)
o Damage type: Bludgeoning
o Downtime: Little apparent
o Notes: No apparent injury

- Blows taken w/o visible injury: Head rammed into first a metal plate then a interior wall (Season 3: Graduation day part 1)
o Damage type: Bludgeoning
o Downtime: None in both cases
o Notes: during the final fight with Faith. Little to no slowdown.

- Blows taken w/o visible injury: Thrown into truck (parked) (Season 4: The Freshman)
o Damage type: Bludgeoning
o Downtime: None
o Notes: Whilst fighting the vampire “Sunday” for the first time.

- Blows taken w/o visible injury: Smacked over couch by Bear-Hus(Season 4: Pangs)
o Damage type: Bludgeoning…with claws
o Downtime: several seconds
o Notes: No apparent claw marks. Hus Transformed himself into an American Black Bear.

- Blows taken w/o visible injury: Slammed into wall/Metal pipe by Vahrall Demon (Season 4: Doomed)
o Damage type: Bludgeoning
o Downtime: Not applicable
o Notes: None

- Blows taken w/o visible injury: hit with Taser blast (Season 4: the Yoko Factor)
o Damage type: Electrical
o Downtime: None
o Notes: Knocked back 6 feet by "12,000 volt" blast. Another blasts, blows a hole in the cave wall. A Little frizzled by the blast.


Yes, there is more. I inlcuded the taser blast because it picks her up and throws her against a wall as well. Nasty fun, that. The blast from such a taser rendered another human (miltary) unconscious.
I haven't seen the fight, so I can't comment. But most Tae-Kwon Do is geared more towards sporting and tournament sparring than actual fighting. It's not a particularly "hard" style and it's emphasises are such that it's not terribly great street fighting style. Buffy, having some genuine martial arts training, could definitely compete on a fair basis.

And two years, that could either mean a lot with a good school or very little if it's not. Hard to say with out seeing the actual fight. Though guessing, I'm willing to bet it's less Tae-Kwon Do anyway and more "Hollywood Coreographed Fight Flash" style. :P
Honestly, it's more "Hollywood Coreographed fight" sytel. But it's the only example available.

Besides, people don't watch that episode for the fighting, it's watched for Buffy in Therapy. And boy, does that girl NEED it!
Well know huh? And based on what? The only major fall I can think of its Faith's and that wound her up in the "funnest coma ever" as I recall.

For a more reasonable example: the nightly fights she gets into go completely unnotices even minutes after they occur. Bruises take some time to form, they tend to form on Buffy only when it's either dramatically appropriate or a major blow, or (usually) both.
Actually, even if she is more resistant to blunt trauma that doesn't apply to blades. They operate by a completely different method, hence why practicioners of medicine and anatomy make the distinction.
Makes sense. Which is why my first theory opted for muscle density protecting the person. But that would corelate with a weight increase--which does not appear to be true from what I've seen.

Plus, it would really piss Buffy off. "Stupid Slayerness, Why do I always weigh 300lbs?!" :P
Given that you acknowledge it was not necessarily a good wound, cannot be proven to hit her kidney, and the after math seems to indicate a shallow wound I find it a totally unwarranted to assume it should have been a fatal wound. Buffy's own behaviour is entirely incosistent with her having a mortal wound.
Since you seem to know more about this than I do, what would the normal reaction be to an immediately mortal wound (though, not a one-hit kill)?
I'm sorry but this seems entirely like you have assumed the result you want, then made your case off the assumption.
I conceed the Kidney example, and...likely in a little while I'll conceed the rest of the bladed resistance. But, I've been known to be pretty stubborn at times.
I acknowledged that it shows some resistance to damage. I agree that's part of the Slayer package. But a backhand (better known as a pimp slap) is not really meant to bruise or inflict lacerations.
From what I remember, it was more than a pimp slap. But I'll have to double check (damnit! Not another one!)
You're obviously missing the point which should be patently obvious to any one with even a passing familiarity to fighting. The idea is not to inflict blunt force trauma (aka stupid hit and get hit fighting) or at least not primiarly. The idea is to use leverage to force submission, break bones, deflect blows; the idea is for a strike to provoke a specific reaction based on the way one's body works. To put it in simply terms, it's using their own reflexes and body motions against them.

It's not boxing where the idea is to just hit them until something gives.
Indeed I was not. Thank you for this clarrification. However, I do wonder if Buffy resistance to Blunt force trauma resist certain strikes. I mean, for example, her bones are likely enhanced (given her various falls such as Season 5's Secondary falls from midway up Glory's Tower (over 50ft. stunned only for a second)), so breaking them won't be a simple matter.
If some one was hit in the heart directly, it would not flutter, it would not falter then quite, it would flat out cease to beat. She would have bled out and died with in seconds at most. What happened does not seem to be consistent with that.

It appears, so far as I can see, that he hit her high and to the left, above her breat. The heart is actually in the center of the body which makes a direct hit all the more unlikely. Most likely he hit an artery or vein supplying it which is both more likely given the position and more consistent with how she actually went down.
I conceed the point. Thank you for this new data.
Which doesn't explain how Tara bled less as well. More likely it's just one of those things that have to be ignored because it ultimately is television.
True. So very true.
True but her reflexes and body movements are all the same which means that she will still react to most of it in the exact same way.
Even if her reflexes are faster than normal, you do have a point with that.
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Post by lance »

Aren't their a couple scenes where Buffy or someone gets and flies back 10 feet very slowly?
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Post by Stormbringer »

Majin Gojira wrote:Unless I see evidence for it, I'll discount it as just wittiness. Plus, there's the fun chance that River, whilst attacking Buffy mentally, will encounter an image of Things Man Was Not Meant to Know (Which have, canonically, driven people insane).
In "Session 416" she does just that. There is no exageration in it.
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Post by Majin Gojira »

Session 416? Oh! Right!

Wait, no it doesn't. It's hard to tell what's happening in that session IIRC (It begins with the guy being killed, right?).

(Goes and looks again).

Session 416 Part II.

She was right up in the guy's lap (you can see her shadow on his neck). She apparently stuck her hand right into the Interviewer to kill him. We can see the BLOOD ON HER HAND at the end. Frankly, that makes a possible hth confrontation between river even more dangerous for Buffy.

Of course, we don't know exactly where she does penetrates (seemed to be throat), and it is possible she kept the victim mentally subdued.

But that's not a Mindkill by any streatch of the imagination.
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Post by Majin Gojira »

Ghetto Edit:

Wait a minute, the bloodsplatter pattern on her hand is not indicative of her reachng her hand inside the guy. Thin film on the fingers (if any, I don't think there was), and a thick film on her palm. It may have indeed been a psychic attack, but it appeared to require close contact if it was. Appologies, I jumped to a conclusion. However, the proximity notes remain the same. Whatever she did: stick her hand in the guy, twist a pressure point the right way or something far more fancy (doubtful given the nature of the Firefly 'verse is to be the antithesis of the big and flashy stuff), it required very close proximity to fully work.
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Post by Stormbringer »

Admittedly I don't know the majority of calculations, but I am trying to do the best that I can, damnit. I resent being compared to Darkstar. Nor do I like the accusation of fraud. That's just a low blow. Hell, the reason why I just post the raw numbers, so people can check the interpretations. And I point out where I have made estimations (such as distances).
You keep offering lists that are some what distorted, lacking in context, and which do not consider alternatives adequately. I am sorry if you are not doing it intentionally but right now you seem to be confusing volume of information for quality.

As I said, I would prefer to see a detailed analysis of a few of the incidents rather than a huge list with little to no information.
Far from it. I made it perfectly clear in the "Homecoming" example. I don't see why you need to trivialize those instances given the "IDIOT MASTER CHIEF WANKERS" post in Other Sci Fi. As far as I can tell, Buffy's doing something closed to what the chief is doing (Albiet, not in the open, and probably slower).
Because the basic technique of not being where the enemy points the bullets is not hard nor does it require superhuman anything. Any one that's participated in psuedo-military sports shows that dodging when an enemy points a weapon at you is not difficult.

For that matter, running and minimizing one's exposure is just good tactics. Any SWAT team or other group does the same when clearinga tight quarters. And similar is done in general. It doesn't take superhuman anything to do.

So again, it's definitely not what is implied by dodging bullets and certainly requires nothing superhuman. The point Mike is trying to make in that post actually.
Ok. Your turn for examples.
Of her reflexes failing her? Okay, I'll do what I can so far as I can. Been a while so pardon me if i make a few mistakes, okay?

"The Puppet Show" she gets tagged by Sid's dropped chandelier. Not only does she get hit, despite the relatively little weight and good leverage she is pinned.

"Graduation Day" when she and Angel are walking and he sprouts an arrow before she reacts.

I'm inclined to put "Seeing Red" down as another example. Warren is in no way that good and yet he shot her. But then again, maybe I'm underestimating that give that he obviously had to have a Magic 9MM considering the shot with Tara. :lol:

And of course there are a number of fights where he reflexes are poor. Against the gang of vamps in one of the early Season 4 eps, she gets solily beaten by a newbies. And of course the incident where she more or less staked herself that we've discussed.

Her reactions are good, don't get me wrong. But I remain dubious of them being superhuman.
She's also known for toying with her quarry (which bit her in the ass in Season 5). To me, it's more likely that she can move at those speeds but through arrogance choses not to.
And thus the world's oldest cop out. "She could, but choses not too." Uh huh, sure. She definitely has a fighting style that is more beating, less winning. That's true but for her not to take advantage of a major ability just to feel good, no. After she encountered Faith she definitely developed that bad habit but again, it's more inefficiency than moving with deliberate slowness.

Of course, if she even tries that with River she'll soon be finished off anyway. So if that's how she consistently fights then we should take that as an indication.
Hey, I've argued Buffy Vs. Several times before, and others have admitted to this. But, if you want proof I can provide it.
Impressive but filled with apparent. Blunt trauma is usually not readily visible, is easier to supress/work depsite because it leaves tissue more intact than stabs, and in general tends to look like a worse accident than it is.

I will again refer to the fact that she often comes back bruised and bloodied from routine slayings. I'm not sure how that reconciles to be honest but it's part of what makes me think that Slayers just heal quicker and have more natural pain killers.
Honestly, it's more "Hollywood Coreographed fight" sytel. But it's the only example available.
I figured as much. And really it's hard to say how much it means or not.
Besides, people don't watch that episode for the fighting, it's watched for Buffy in Therapy. And boy, does that girl NEED it!
I know, I've watched the show for a bit you know. :razz:
For a more reasonable example: the nightly fights she gets into go completely unnotices even minutes after they occur. Bruises take some time to form, they tend to form on Buffy only when it's either dramatically appropriate or a major blow, or (usually) both.
Funny, Joyce sure notices and worries until she learns in Season 3.
Since you seem to know more about this than I do, what would the normal reaction be to an immediately mortal wound (though, not a one-hit kill)?
Depends on what sort it is. If a non-too-hygernic stake actually was driven into her kidney it would be a build up of toxins that the kidney isn't filtering.

Kidney: brought to you by Wikipedia

It's worth pointing out that after looking that up, they are even further back in the body than I thought. The chances of it actually hitting one are virtually nil. If it actually periced an organ, it would likely have been some where in her bowles (also generally and unpleasantly mortal). And since she went to eat at the Bronze not long after, I'd say that it probably didn't hit her there.

Most likely it went in at something of an angle and so it got mostly abdominal muscle.

From what I remember, it was more than a pimp slap. But I'll have to double check (damnit! Not another one!)
He backhanded her. That's the traditional definition of pimp slap. He got her pretty good but being hit by a broad, flat surface on her cheek wouldn't bruise too badly if at all.
Indeed I was not. Thank you for this clarrification. However, I do wonder if Buffy resistance to Blunt force trauma resist certain strikes. I mean, for example, her bones are likely enhanced (given her various falls such as Season 5's Secondary falls from midway up Glory's Tower (over 50ft. stunned only for a second)), so breaking them won't be a simple matter.
I think her resistance is not resistance, it's an abundance of natural pain killers. The thing about blunt force trauma is that unless it's sufficient to break bones or really pulp the tissue you can function to a degree. Buffy and Faith both seem to get a natural rush out of it, endorphines would produce that as a side effect. So I could see it being not so much her being resistant as not feeling it so badly and thus not caring so much.

Just my take on it.
I conceed the point. Thank you for this new data.
You're welcome, I'm glad to help.
Even if her reflexes are faster than normal, you do have a point with that.
One reason I think that the Watchers make so much of an effort to find and train Slayers. Aside from the obvious reasons of avoiding cases like Faith. Training counts for a lot in a fight because there are lots of little things to exploit that can add up to a big advantage.
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Post by Stormbringer »

Majin Gojira wrote:Ghetto Edit:

Wait a minute, the bloodsplatter pattern on her hand is not indicative of her reachng her hand inside the guy. Thin film on the fingers (if any, I don't think there was), and a thick film on her palm. It may have indeed been a psychic attack, but it appeared to require close contact if it was. Appologies, I jumped to a conclusion. However, the proximity notes remain the same. Whatever she did: stick her hand in the guy, twist a pressure point the right way or something far more fancy (doubtful given the nature of the Firefly 'verse is to be the antithesis of the big and flashy stuff), it required very close proximity to fully work.
Actually, I believe that was River digging her nails into her own palms during a seizure that produced the blood. She was obviously in a psychotic and agressive state and muscle tension would pretty much do that for her, possiblyunconciously.

As for it being too flashy, I really don't know. River says she can do it and she doesn't seem to lie; I don't think she's sane enough to be able to lie.
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Post by Majin Gojira »

Stormbringer wrote:You keep offering lists that are some what distorted, lacking in context, and which do not consider alternatives adequately. I am sorry if you are not doing it intentionally but right now you seem to be confusing volume of information for quality.

As I said, I would prefer to see a detailed analysis of a few of the incidents rather than a huge list with little to no information.
So...any advice as to how I would go about that?
Because the basic technique of not being where the enemy points the bullets is not hard nor does it require superhuman anything. Any one that's participated in psuedo-military sports shows that dodging when an enemy points a weapon at you is not difficult.

For that matter, running and minimizing one's exposure is just good tactics. Any SWAT team or other group does the same when clearinga tight quarters. And similar is done in general. It doesn't take superhuman anything to do.

So again, it's definitely not what is implied by dodging bullets and certainly requires nothing superhuman. The point Mike is trying to make in that post actually.
Ya know, I think that is the first time on this board Buffy has been accused of using Good Tactics!
"The Puppet Show" she gets tagged by Sid's dropped chandelier. Not only does she get hit, despite the relatively little weight and good leverage she is pinned.

"Graduation Day" when she and Angel are walking and he sprouts an arrow before she reacts.

I'm inclined to put "Seeing Red" down as another example. Warren is in no way that good and yet he shot her. But then again, maybe I'm underestimating that give that he obviously had to have a Magic 9MM considering the shot with Tara. :lol:
The first example I'll give ya. Graduation day, not so much. The shot was far enough away to avoid detection. No shame in missng a sniper's shot.
And of course there are a number of fights where he reflexes are poor. Against the gang of vamps in one of the early Season 4 eps, she gets solily beaten by a newbies. And of course the incident where she more or less staked herself that we've discussed.
And then there's the Season 5 "Into the Woods" where the exact opposite happens. And honestly, Sunday (the vampire from Season 4) was above average and no where near newbie status. And the one that staked her suffered from the Deadened Fasion Sense syndrome some Vampires get, meaning that one had been a vampire for at least 8 years.
Her reactions are good, don't get me wrong. But I remain dubious of them being superhuman.
If it makes you feel better, the RPG lists her reaction time as over 4 times human peak in Season 5. :P
And thus the world's oldest cop out. "She could, but choses not too." Uh huh, sure. She definitely has a fighting style that is more beating, less winning. That's true but for her not to take advantage of a major ability just to feel good, no. After she encountered Faith she definitely developed that bad habit but again, it's more inefficiency than moving with deliberate slowness.
Quite possibly, but Buffy's...well...arrogance is pretty well established in the series.

At any rate, I think I'm nearly out of evidence for Buffy's superhuman reaction time. One of the few options left is to go with the "Slow Down" effect, but in a metanarrative fasion (IE: They strive for those speeds, but their budget can't support it).

Of course, that solves absolutely nothing. So I've spent pretty much all my ammo.
Impressive but filled with apparent. Blunt trauma is usually not readily visible, is easier to supress/work depsite because it leaves tissue more intact than stabs, and in general tends to look like a worse accident than it is.

I will again refer to the fact that she often comes back bruised and bloodied from routine slayings.
With that, you've got a point.
Funny, Joyce sure notices and worries until she learns in Season 3.
That's what she says, but given the ratio of big threats vs. routine slayings, it's possible for both my statement and yours to be true. Routine slayings don't usually leave her injured, but every now and then she is cut or hit hard enough/int he right way to break the skin. The visual evidence tends to support this stance. 'least from what I can recall. Riley comments that she's fresh as a daisy after slaying and he's a walking bruise. That may be ain inscrease in skill level, though.
<snip cool info>
Gratzi!
I think her resistance is not resistance, it's an abundance of natural pain killers. The thing about blunt force trauma is that unless it's sufficient to break bones or really pulp the tissue you can function to a degree. Buffy and Faith both seem to get a natural rush out of it, endorphines would produce that as a side effect. So I could see it being not so much her being resistant as not feeling it so badly and thus not caring so much.

Just my take on it.
Very interesting. I will take this into consideration for future analysis.
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Post by Stormbringer »

So...any advice as to how I would go about that?
Hard to say. A lot of it would be consult people with relevant knowledge. Gun shot wound, ask the HAB or the Mess members.

Fight sequence, talk to the martial arts enthusiats around here.

Quantify and figure out positionings when ever possible. Some of Buffy's feats look more impressive than they are because of the way they're shot.

And above all, approach it as much as possible with a neutral frame of mind. If necessary, find devils advocates. Some of your assumptions could use a bit of critical analysis.
Ya know, I think that is the first time on this board Buffy has been accused of using Good Tactics!
Well, they're basic and fairly instinctive tactics. Which doesn't mean they're bad.
The first example I'll give ya. Graduation day, not so much. The shot was far enough away to avoid detection. No shame in missng a sniper's shot.
True that but then again she let her guard down too. Subtle Faith wasn't.
And then there's the Season 5 "Into the Woods" where the exact opposite happens. And honestly, Sunday (the vampire from Season 4) was above average and no where near newbie status. And the one that staked her suffered from the Deadened Fasion Sense syndrome some Vampires get, meaning that one had been a vampire for at least 8 years.
Well, Buffy can learn. And when she gets properly motived she tends to make less mistakes. She's not terrible and don't think I figure that. She's just above all inconsistent.

And Sunday was not a newborn to be sure but eight years, ten, it's nothing compared to two or three hundred. It's worth noting that she's still relatively low on the food chain and Buffy knows it.
If it makes you feel better, the RPG lists her reaction time as over 4 times human peak in Season 5
Having played along side an amateur designer, I have to say that probably doesn't count for much. Statwise the difference between normal and good tends to be so extreme so that low dice matter less. Essentially the good are really good but average is rather pathetic.
Quite possibly, but Buffy's...well...arrogance is pretty well established in the series.
But not nearly to that degree I think. Her fights with the like of Angel or the Master or Spike are not so much more furious that I believe she's just fucking with them. Maybe pummelling them a little more than necessary, not paying full attention, and not bothering to train like Kendra. But not that extreme.

Arrogance, another reason for Watchers.
At any rate, I think I'm nearly out of evidence for Buffy's superhuman reaction time. One of the few options left is to go with the "Slow Down" effect, but in a metanarrative fasion (IE: They strive for those speeds, but their budget can't support it).
But it doesn't matter under suspension of disbelief. And it's also worth pointing out that both Buffy and Firefly did mostly practical effects for their fights, so most of it can be done or simulated by stunt crew.
With that, you've got a point.
Thank you.
That's what she says, but given the ratio of big threats vs. routine slayings, it's possible for both my statement and yours to be true. Routine slayings don't usually leave her injured, but every now and then she is cut or hit hard enough/int he right way to break the skin.

Possible but Joyce first begins remarking in the first episode when it's been ordinary vamps. Granted some might just be sloppiness on Buffy's part though.
The visual evidence tends to support this stance. 'least from what I can recall. Riley comments that she's fresh as a daisy after slaying and he's a walking bruise. That may be ain inscrease in skill level, though.
Well, Riley's her boyfriend and has a whopper of an inferiority complex. Some exageration is to be expected, as well as the possibility of her simply being better.

On a balance, it's probably some where between Riley and Joyce's observations.
Very interesting. I will take this into consideration for future analysis.
Just to note, I do believe Buffy is tougher, has better reflexes, and such. We're told as much and there are things which bear it out. On the other hand, I believe that there has to be some continuity and I think that offers a reasonable explanation.
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Post by Mobiboros »

Stormbringer wrote:As for it being too flashy, I really don't know. River says she can do it and she doesn't seem to lie; I don't think she's sane enough to be able to lie.
I got nothing in the Buffy vs. River thing as I don't know Buffy beyond the original movie.

That said, if you watch the session clips of River, I believe it's implied she stabs the doctor in the neck with the pen she asks for. He sits there choking and she has blood on her hands.

Also, sane enough to lie makes no sense. Go to a psych ward sometime and ask any of the hundred "Jesus'" whether or not they could smite you down with a mere thought. I think she was capitalizing on people knowing she was insane to scare the hell out of Jayne.
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Post by Stormbringer »

Mobiboros wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:As for it being too flashy, I really don't know. River says she can do it and she doesn't seem to lie; I don't think she's sane enough to be able to lie.
I got nothing in the Buffy vs. River thing as I don't know Buffy beyond the original movie.

That said, if you watch the session clips of River, I believe it's implied she stabs the doctor in the neck with the pen she asks for. He sits there choking and she has blood on her hands.
That might indeed be the case. I'll readily admit that in the poor quality of the clips I got that I might have missed that and it would make for a better mundane explanation.
Mobiboros wrote:Also, sane enough to lie makes no sense. Go to a psych ward sometime and ask any of the hundred "Jesus'" whether or not they could smite you down with a mere thought. I think she was capitalizing on people knowing she was insane to scare the hell out of Jayne.
Except River's condition explicitly destroyed her ability to control herself. She blutters out whatever crosses her mind; we've only seen her do it about a million times. Her mind is essentially lacking the coherence, control, and defense mechanisms for her to lie. She certainly never does about anything else.
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Post by NecronLord »

Dark Hellion wrote:Technically, there was no way in hell River should have survived the Reaver fight either, other than that reavers are much more pathetic in close combat than they are attributed. A 90 lbs girl simply cannot do enough damage, even with an axe, to stop a 200+lbs man from simply dragging her down and the rest of them just dog piling.
Bullshit. I'm over 200 lbs, and I've been put down so fast my head's spun by old men half my size (rhetoric though certainly under half my weight) on many occasions.
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Post by Demiurge »

River lied to Jubal Early about merging with the ship.
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Post by Mobiboros »

Stormbringer wrote: Except River's condition explicitly destroyed her ability to control herself. She blutters out whatever crosses her mind; we've only seen her do it about a million times. Her mind is essentially lacking the coherence, control, and defense mechanisms for her to lie. She certainly never does about anything else.
So? She doesn't have to lie. She may very well believe she can kill with her brain. But then many paranoid schizophrenics have delusions that they believe real (hence, why they are delusions). She may honestly believe it, but it doesn't make it true.

We've seen no real evidence of her having any offensive psychic ability beyond strong empathy and surface telepathy.
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Post by Stormbringer »

Demiurge wrote:River lied to Jubal Early about merging with the ship.
Point conceded. I've never seen that episode so it never crossed my mind.
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Post by Drooling Iguana »

Remember that Slayers have precog. It was fairly well-established in the early seasons that Slayers could see the future, usually through prophetic dreams, although that particular trait was de-emphasized quite a bit in the later seasons. That may account for why Buffy's reflexes are occasionally super-human and occasionally not.
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Post by Stormbringer »

Drooling Iguana wrote:Remember that Slayers have precog. It was fairly well-established in the early seasons that Slayers could see the future, usually through prophetic dreams, although that particular trait was de-emphasized quite a bit in the later seasons. That may account for why Buffy's reflexes are occasionally super-human and occasionally not.
I don't forget. It's just her "spidey-sense" is none too reliable really.
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