River vs Buffy (Serenity spoilers)

Demiurge · Post by **Demiurge** » 2005-10-01 03:27pm

This is as obvious a match as any, and now I'm the first to do it. So, considering what River did in Serenity, what would happen in a fight between her and Whedon's original diminutive teen girl fighter, Buffy?

Crom · Post by **Crom** » 2005-10-01 03:44pm

Is there any evidence of how River's telepathy augments her fighting ability? She really shouldn't be as strong as a Slayer, at least the impression I got from the movie. She's a highly trained assassin, and she's certainly agile and fast, but is she really on the Slayer level?

On the other hand, River is quite proficient with guns ...

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2005-10-01 03:51pm

River's fast and well trained, but she doesn't have superhuman physical attributes. If there is any physical attribute that is superhuman, it would only be dexterity. Otherwise, she's a normal human with a leaky brain pan and nifty mental abilities.

Crom · Post by **Crom** » 2005-10-01 04:10pm

Majin Gojira wrote:River's fast and well trained, but she doesn't have superhuman physical attributes. If there is any physical attribute that is superhuman, it would only be dexterity. Otherwise, she's a normal human with a leaky brain pan and nifty mental abilities.

And she's a super-genius. I wonder if that would help.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2005-10-01 05:55pm

She also has really good accuracy with a gun, without having to look too. That could be helpful.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2005-10-01 06:04pm

Buffy is strong, but she still has skin and she isn't fast or anything. River appears highly skilled (she knows real fighting techniques, not the crap that Buffy knows), fast, and more then willing to use weapons. I seriously do not think that Buffy could have survived the Reaver slaughter scene like River did. River would rip Buffy a new one.

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2005-10-01 06:10pm

Technically, there was no way in hell River should have survived the Reaver fight either, other than that reavers are much more pathetic in close combat than they are attributed. A 90 lbs girl simply cannot do enough damage, even with an axe, to stop a 200+lbs man from simply dragging her down and the rest of them just dog piling.
And her fighting technique, while based on speed, gives her no real power (this is coming from a buddy who is a former UFC hopeful, and knows his shit about martial arts) and she should have trouble against someone who can take cars hitting her without too much trouble.
But Buffy's technique is even worse, so who knows.

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2005-10-01 06:29pm

Alyeska wrote:Buffy is strong, but she still has skin and she isn't fast or anything. River appears highly skilled (she knows real fighting techniques, not the crap that Buffy knows), fast, and more then willing to use weapons. I seriously do not think that Buffy could have survived the Reaver slaughter scene like River did. River would rip Buffy a new one.

Bull and Shit. Buffy's very quick, running at speeds upwards of 35mph AND being able to snatch crossbow bolts out of the air among other feats of speed.

Face it. It's in the nature of the two universes. River is not superhuman, if you check out the fun film book, you'll notice that Joss specifically went for realism in River's combat style.

Buffy, otoh, is truely superhuman. Strength, Speed and Constitution.

Though, I would like to hear what you have to say about buffy's "Crap" fighting style. The fact that she will occasionally toy with a vampire by using a pro-wrestling move (Season 5, "Buffy vs. Dracula", watch her deliver a Huricanrana to a vamp) does not count against her overall style.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2005-10-01 10:09pm

Majin Gojira wrote:Bull and Shit. Buffy's very quick, running at speeds upwards of 35mph AND being able to snatch crossbow bolts out of the air among other feats of speed.

Running fast does not equal moving fast in a fight. And I would have loved to see those incredibly high speeds when she gets involved in fights. She moves slow as shit when fighting vampires (comparable to Gunn when he fights, so don't claim its a slown down version of the fight between Buffy and the Vampire) and her technique is terrible.

Face it. It's in the nature of the two universes. River is not superhuman, if you check out the fun film book, you'll notice that Joss specifically went for realism in River's combat style.

Buffy relies on brute strength and endurance and has a very hard time facing opponents who have skill. She is clumsy and poorly trained in martial arts.

Buffy, otoh, is truely superhuman. Strength, Speed and Constitution.

And yet she can be killed by normal means, her skin breaks just as easily. Her speed is restricted to running only seeing how she moves just as quick as normal humans. Worse, she is poorly trained to take advantage of her capabilities.

Though, I would like to hear what you have to say about buffy's "Crap" fighting style. The fact that she will occasionally toy with a vampire by using a pro-wrestling move (Season 5, "Buffy vs. Dracula", watch her deliver a Huricanrana to a vamp) does not count against her overall style.

Punching at a Vampire is not a very good way to kill or hurt one. She is clumsy and slow. She relies on brute strength more then anything. For an example of good fighting, look at Bourne Supremecy or Bourne Identity. Now look at River and Buffy and compare who more closely matches those fighting styles. Buffy would be slaughtered by anyone with competent fighting skill. Even higher endurance won't change how basic body functions work. Even strong people react the same as weak ones when hit in certain areas. Thats how martial arts work primarily. Buffy doesn't do any of the basics.

Crom · Post by **Crom** » 2005-10-01 10:56pm

Buffy was also shot and injured by a man who was certainly not a trained assassin, so I think if River had access to a firearm she would probably kill Buffy fairly quickly.

When it comes down to a straight fist-fight, Buffy is tougher and stronger, but River is highly trained to kill people and she seems faster in a fight than Buffy. River taking out the Reavers was extremely impressive.

Then there's the fact that River is orders of magnitude smarter than Buffy and she can read minds! I still wonder if there is an offensive component to her telepathy that is augmenting her fighting abilities (the gunning down three men with her eyes closed, for instance).

Post by **Beowulf** » 2005-10-01 11:57pm

Crom wrote:Then there's the fact that River is orders of magnitude smarter than Buffy and she can read minds! I still wonder if there is an offensive component to her telepathy that is augmenting her fighting abilities (the gunning down three men with her eyes closed, for instance).

She looked first for that stunt. Which implies to me that she's really just that damn good with guns, and isn't using her telepathy to augment her ability.

Larz · Post by **Larz** » 2005-10-02 03:05am

Dark Hellion wrote:Technically, there was no way in hell River should have survived the Reaver fight either, other than that reavers are much more pathetic in close combat than they are attributed. A 90 lbs girl simply cannot do enough damage, even with an axe, to stop a 200+lbs man from simply dragging her down and the rest of them just dog piling.
And her fighting technique, while based on speed, gives her no real power (this is coming from a buddy who is a former UFC hopeful, and knows his shit about martial arts) and she should have trouble against someone who can take cars hitting her without too much trouble.
But Buffy's technique is even worse, so who knows.

Reavers where never attributed as being good hand-to-hand fighters. They get by on numbers, savagery, and lack of concern for pain. During the bar and reavers fight she seemed to use her superb agility to avoid a situation where it pitted her strength against another; rather, she used her opponent’s strength against them combined with quick, well placed counterattacks with the stronger parts of her body (legs) and often using weapons (sword, axe, serving tray, etc.)

During the reaver fight she seemed to primarily use a curved sword with the axe as secondary, good for quick slashing she was doing. Yes, a 200+ guy could easily drag her down, but they would have to get close enough to grab her first and she seemed to have been doing a fine job of keeping them back. It doesn't take much to place a deep cut in an unarmored guy, and once you’ve done this its just a matter of keeping them back long enough for nature to finish the as the reaver bleeds to death.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2005-10-02 03:17am

It seems River's telepathy gives her a sort of precognitive ability when fighting. The way she was fighting the Reavers was like she knew where they were going to be. That could be just "Mind Scan + Smart enough to predict" but who knows?

P.S. I've been looking forward to my first River vs. thread since May 5th

Crom · Post by **Crom** » 2005-10-02 03:44am

Beowulf wrote:She looked first for that stunt. Which implies to me that she's really just that damn good with guns, and isn't using her telepathy to augment her ability.

Well there's also the stunt where she takes on wave after wave of Reavers and kills all of them. Excellent training will only get you so far, and the only in-universe explanation I can think of to rationalize that is, as CaptainChewbacca says:

CaptainChewbacca wrote:It seems River's telepathy gives her a sort of precognitive ability when fighting. The way she was fighting the Reavers was like she knew where they were going to be. That could be just "Mind Scan + Smart enough to predict" but who knows?

It could be something as simple as mind scanning her opponents and anticipating their moves.

I wondered if there was something more, if she was possibly controlling or altering her opponents moves, but there's no real evidence of that. Do we know anything about how Early used his "intuitive" abilities to augment his fighting?

Xon · Post by **Xon** » 2005-10-02 03:48am

Having telepathy which can actively read the intended movements of someone, would look like precog due to the delay between thinking and acting. Hell, just being able to read the impusles before they leave the brain to the rest of the body would give a massive edge.

Alyeska, finally someone else who thinks Buffy's fighting technique is crappy. And frankly the lack of intelligence in her fighting is shocking.

Having someone study thier enermies before actually fighting them is apparently something that Buffy is rediciously poor at handling going by her track record.

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2005-10-02 11:04am

Alyeska wrote:Running fast does not equal moving fast in a fight. And I would have loved to see those incredibly high speeds when she gets involved in fights. She moves slow as shit when fighting vampires (comparable to Gunn when he fights, so don't claim its a slown down version of the fight between Buffy and the Vampire) and her technique is terrible.

I won't say that it's filmed at high speeds. No, I'd get metanarrative with the explination, but that would probably work against me.

But that's generally, there are many specific incidents that indicate at least superhuman reflexes that you appear to be ignoring: when we see Buffy dodge Gunmen (Season 3 "Homecoming" is a prime example among at least 6), snatch crossbow bolts (Season 7 "Help"), catching a drawn weapon from a trained assasine (Who, admittedly, drew it very clumsily) (Season 2 "What's my Line"), and dodging magical energy blasts moving 116mph (Season 3 "Revelation") and the fun sword-catch in "Becoming."

Gunn doesn't have those fun hat-tricks to work with.

To me, that seems to indicate the limitations of the display--fights occuring at normal speed, then an instance of superhuman speed...

Finally, should I start quoting the frighteningly accurate RPG on Buffy's abilities? I could, ya know...

And yet she can be killed by normal means, her skin breaks just as easily. Her speed is restricted to running only seeing how she moves just as quick as normal humans. Worse, she is poorly trained to take advantage of her capabilities.

Actually, my research into that seems to indicate that they're actually ratehr dense. When Buffy was shot, she was hit in the heart--the fucking HEART. Talk about dumb luck on Warren's part.

However, a better example occurs in "Graduation Day part 1" and Season 5's "Fool For Love". Both instances have Slayers being stabbed, and both instances, the pointed weapons are wielded by extremely strong beings (Buffy and a Hairmetal Vampire). Niether times do the weapons go through the target, which they most certainly would with the power behind them. With Faith, she's hit in the gut and the blade appears to stop at her spine. With Buffy, it penetrates 2-3 inches into her Kidney.

Or, if I'm really mean, I'll mention Season 3's "Homecoming" where she's cut with a bone dagger--reacts to it--but produces NO VISIBLE INJURY and in Season 4's "Pangs" She's cut again by a stone daggar (lovely flint!), but it is shallow despite being 3 inches long.

Punching at a Vampire is not a very good way to kill or hurt one.

Given that we've seen Vampires knocked out by focused blunt trauma, I'd have to disagree.

Especially given that Pro Wrestlers can use thier moves against other monsters and have them work. Even on normal humans...given Los Hermanos Numeros...

She is clumsy and slow. She relies on brute strength more then anything. For an example of good fighting, look at Bourne Supremecy or Bourne Identity. Now look at River and Buffy and compare who more closely matches those fighting styles. Buffy would be slaughtered by anyone with competent fighting skill. Even higher endurance won't change how basic body functions work.

Given her reactions to being cut, I'd lean towards body density, but that idea must work through mystical means given it doesn't affect her overall wieght.

Even strong people react the same as weak ones when hit in certain areas.

Except for Malcom Reynolds

Thats how martial arts work primarily. Buffy doesn't do any of the basics.

Intetresting. Thanks for elaborating. It gives me some things to think about (and even MORE movies to eventually see).

However, given River's mild pre-cog, she may be able to counter much of Buffys speed, so it may be a moot point.

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2005-10-02 11:57am

Adendum:

There's shit in Buffy's head that Man Was Not Meant to Know. In the past, encounters with such creatures have been known to drive men insane ("Teachers Pet") and haunt nightmares ("The Zeppo"). River's reaction to such stimulous would be most interesting...

sketerpot · Post by **sketerpot** » 2005-10-02 02:07pm

Joss Whedon has weighed in on this:

Joss Whedon wrote:Ultimately, I can’t say, I’m gonna have to watch. Buffy’s got the super strength but River’s got all kinds of crazy training. She’s not a superhero in the same way but she’s very focused. It’s tough. It’s a SmackDown. Be there!

link

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2005-10-03 08:55pm

But that's generally, there are many specific incidents that indicate at least superhuman reflexes that you appear to be ignoring: when we see Buffy dodge Gunmen (Season 3 "Homecoming" is a prime example among at least 6), snatch crossbow bolts (Season 7 "Help"), catching a drawn weapon from a trained assasine (Who, admittedly, drew it very clumsily) (Season 2 "What's my Line"), and dodging magical energy blasts moving 116mph (Season 3 "Revelation") and the fun sword-catch in "Becoming."

And from what I recall, in most of those cases she didn't have anything going that would distract her. From the episodes I saw, it was mostly a one-off stunt.

And that doesn't take into account the number of times she's has been beaten, stabbed, and shot. Her superhuman reflexes are definitely not to be counted on as they appear at best to require no distraction and at worst are mostly luck.

To me, that seems to indicate the limitations of the display--fights occuring at normal speed, then an instance of superhuman speed...

And the canon proof of this is?

Actually, my research into that seems to indicate that they're actually ratehr dense. When Buffy was shot, she was hit in the heart--the fucking HEART. Talk about dumb luck on Warren's part.

However, a better example occurs in "Graduation Day part 1"

You mean Faith's shitty ass peice of shit knife? It's a fucking displaying peice not a worthwhile fighting weapon. With all the little bits and peices sticking out from it, it probably hung up rather than any superslayer skin. With the split point and unsharped bits it's a poor thrusting weapon. And of course, Buffy wasn't trying to gut and kill Faith; so she's not likely to have completed a follow through.

and Season 5's "Fool For Love". Both instances have Slayers being stabbed, and both instances, the pointed weapons are wielded by extremely strong beings (Buffy and a Hairmetal Vampire).

I would hardly call a newbie vamp, who even Buffy calls nothing special, an extremely strong being. And a wooden stake is hardly the best weapon, now is it? And of course she got tagged mostly by accident. Hardly the best example?

Or, if I'm really mean, I'll mention Season 3's "Homecoming" where she's cut with a bone dagger--reacts to it--but produces NO VISIBLE INJURY and in Season 4's "Pangs" She's cut again by a stone daggar (lovely flint!), but it is shallow despite being 3 inches long.

I can't recall the bone dagger bit. But the flint knife attack was nothing special because he just got a swipe not a great thrust. A steel knife and a normal person probably wouldn't have done much different.

Given that we've seen Vampires knocked out by focused blunt trauma, I'd have to disagree.

So because a bad idea occassionally works that means it's not? Sorry but it is a bad way to go about it. Leaving aside weapons, there are a hell of a lot better ways to inflict damage than just wailing away. Face it Buffy fights like you would expect her to. She's a bratty little teen that has some sporadic, inconsistent training and it shows.

Given her reactions to being cut, I'd lean towards body density, but that idea must work through mystical means given it doesn't affect her overall wieght.

Or perhaps because it doesn't exist?

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2005-10-03 08:57pm

During the reaver fight she seemed to primarily use a curved sword with the axe as secondary, good for quick slashing she was doing. Yes, a 200+ guy could easily drag her down, but they would have to get close enough to grab her first and she seemed to have been doing a fine job of keeping them back. It doesn't take much to place a deep cut in an unarmored guy, and once you’ve done this its just a matter of keeping them back long enough for nature to finish the as the reaver bleeds to death.

Not to mention she seems to have the training to go for shots that will both inflict a great deal of pain as well as hamper their reactions. It doesn't matter how tough, how angry, or how suicidal a Reaver is if his leg muscles have been cut by a quick slash.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2005-10-03 09:53pm

One wonderful thing about good martial arts is they are designed to use the enemies body against them. Hit them in certain locations and they will always react the same. Even tough people will react the same to hits in various locations. Same with weapons. River appears to know how to take advantage of this knowledge. As tough as Buffy is, she is still human and she will go down hard as River cuts Buffy to pieces or beats Buffy senseless as Buffy can't handle the hammering she is recieving.

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2005-10-03 11:17pm

Stormbringer wrote: And from what I recall, in most of those cases she didn't have anything going that would distract her. From the episodes I saw, it was mostly a one-off stunt.

Nope. Season 7's "Help" --- she's in the middle of a conversation when she snatches the crossbow bolt out of the air.

And that doesn't take into account the number of times she's has been beaten, stabbed, and shot. Her superhuman reflexes are definitely not to be counted on as they appear at best to require no distraction and at worst are mostly luck.

Yes, I'm well aware of what causes phsycial injury and what does not--I've got a list of every single incident from the first 5 seasons and the first 2 episodes of the 6th. Wanna see? Ain't perfect, but it's something I can use for easy reference.

Blows taken w/injury: Cordelia-controlled by a Bezoar Offspring, hits buy I the head with a metal pipe, KOing her (Season 2: Bad Eggs)
o Damage type: Bludgeoning
o Downtime: Unknown
o Notes: Hit her in the temple with the pole. Left a 2 inch wide welt on her and she said “I’m going to have a big bump” and she does. Swelling peaks in 5 minutes then begins to decrease.

Blows taken w/injury: Angel slashes Buffy’s Arm with a Sword (Season 2: Becoming Part 2)
o Damage type: slashing/stabbing
o Depth of wound: less than a centimeter
o Length of wound: 3 inches
o Notes: Done with blessed sword.

Blows taken w/injury: Demon Ken Knocks Buffy out with club (Season 3: Anne)
o Damage type: Bludgeoning
o Depth of wound: No Wound
o Downtime: Unknown (Cut scene)
o Notes: Club made of wood and metal.

Blows taken w/injury: is in car accident, gets cut on her forehead (left side of head) (Season 3: Band Candy)
o Damage type: Bludgeoning
o Depth of wound: surface
o Size of Wound: cut is about the size of a quarter. Bruise is 3 inches across (approx)
o Notes: she was on the side that got hit and the injury is on the same side as the side she is hit on.

Blows taken w/injury: Kulak cuts her with a bone knife (Season 3: Homecoming)
o Damage type: piercing/Slashing
o Depth of wound: Shallow, unseen but reacted to (obvious contact made)
o Length of wound: Unknown
o Notes: Knife jagged and made of bone. The cut does not show up later on.

Blows taken w/injury: Knockdown-Dragout fight with Faith leaves Bruises (Season 3: Revelations)
o Damage type: Bludgeoning
o Depth of wound: NA, Bruises
o Size of Wound: One black eye and one bruise on face visible (2 inches each, approx)
o Notes: None.

Blows taken w/injury: Hit repeatedly by Sunday in check (Season 4: The Freshman)
o Damage type: Bludgeoning
o Downtime: Wound heals after 24 hours. (approx)
o Size of Wound: 3 inches long, an inch at the maximum width
o Notes: Took 3 blows (2 punches, one spin kick) to form the injury.

Blows taken w/injury: Arm Sprained by Sunday(Season 4: The Freshman)
o Damage type: Bludgeoning
o Downtime: None
o Size of Wound: NA
o Notes: Held arm still then rammed knee into elbow in order to injure, crunching noise heard.

Blows taken w/injury: Knife slash to the shoulder by partially re-animated skeleton (Season 4: Fear, Itself)
o Damage type: piercing
o Downtime: None
o Size of Wound: 2-3 inches, shallow
o Notes: “The Cape took most of it”

Blows taken w/injury: Takes an Arrow in the forearm(Season 4: Pangs)
o Damage type: piercing
o Downtime: NA
o Size of Wound: deep, apparently goes to bone (from the amount in the shaft)
o Notes: wrapped up by Giles. Does not really hamper efficiency in the later fight.

Blows taken w/injury: cut by knife (Season 4: Pangs)
o Damage type: Slashing
o Downtime: NA
o Size of Wound: Shallow, 3 inches long, on arm.
o Notes: Not much bleeding.

Blows taken w/injury: stabbed by surgical knife in the back (lower) from Gentlemen (Season 4: Hush)
o Damage type: piercing
o Downtime: NA
o Size of Wound: Tiny (Not shown)
o Notes: caught off guard by pain.

Blows taken w/injury: Falls down hill and hits her head on a rock (Season 4: The Yoko Factor)
o Damage type: Bludgeoning
o Downtime: Unknown, Knocked Out
o Size of Wound: bruise on side of eye (an inch long), cut on forehead (less than an inch long)
o Notes: one or both injuries may have been caused by Adam. (at least the cut)

Blows taken w/injury: Various Blows from Glory (Season 5: No Place like home)
o Damage type: Bludgeoning
o Downtime: None usually seen
o Size of Wound: 3 inch laceration on left temple
o Notes: That’s all we see…

Blows taken w/injury: Stabbed with own stake (Season 5:Fool for Love)
o Damage type: Peicing
o Downtime: NA
o Size of Wound: 1.5 inches in (head of the stake)
o Notes: Right in the kidney! Seriously thrown for the fight. She stairs at it for a moment in shock before pulling it out. She is then shoved into a tombstone and passes out 1 minute later. Riley describes it as a “major stab wound”. It did not rupture any major organs (or at least, did not appear to the next morning).

Blows taken w/injury: Crowbar thrown by Glory (Season 5: Blood Ties)
o Damage type: Peircing
o Location of Wound: shoulder
o Size of Wound: Unknown
o Depth of wound: Unknown.
o Notes: Partially caught with one hand. Unknown speed due to various cuts used. Later on, little reaction to the wound.

Blows taken w/visible injury: Falls off roof of moving (35-50mph) Winnebago (Season 5: Spiral)
o Damage type: blunt
o Location: left side of head and just above the left eye
o Size: the largest of the two is 2 inches wide, 1 inch tall
o Depth: Unknown, probably just breaking the surface
o Notes: None.

Blows taken w/visible injury: Digging out of her own grave (Season 6: Bargaining Part 2)
o Damage type: blunt/sharp
o Location: Hands
o Size: various small nicks and cuts
o Depth: Unknown
o Notes: None.

Blows taken w/visible injury: backhanded by Razor (Hellion) (Season 6: Bargaining Part 2)
o Damage type: blunt
o Location: lip is cut
o Size: a fraction of an inch
o Depth: Unknown (Shallow)
o Notes: None.

And the canon proof of this is?

General or specific examples. Generally, I'd say: Look at the incidents with supheruman reflexes. Beyond that, I'll have to get back to you.

You mean Faith's shitty ass peice of shit knife? It's a fucking displaying peice not a worthwhile fighting weapon. With all the little bits and peices sticking out from it, it probably hung up rather than any superslayer skin. With the split point and unsharped bits it's a poor thrusting weapon. And of course, Buffy wasn't trying to gut and kill Faith; so she's not likely to have completed a follow through.

This is one of the many reasons I love this board. So much new information.

Secondly, It's not Skin durability I'm talking about, it's overal body density. It goes in line with the resistance to falls and blunt trauma, as well as the wound incidents.

I would hardly call a newbie vamp, who even Buffy calls nothing special, an extremely strong being.

Got me there. Curse you english Language! CURSE YOU!

But to be fiar: Vamps tend to be near peak human ability at the very least.

And a wooden stake is hardly the best weapon, now is it?

The stake in question penetraded her Kidney from what I could gather.

Here's the stake in question And you are right, it doesn't appear to be very sharp. Which is where the top-level human/above human strength comes in. The stake penetrated its entire tip and a little bit more--enough to hang there.

In order for my theory to work, it would have to be a vampire with a pretty good amount of strength. Darn.

And of course she got tagged mostly by accident. Hardly the best example?

She got tagged because she was being careless with an enemy she grew overconfident with. Or, you can take Spike's explination. Either way, not a factor in this showdown.

I can't recall the bone dagger bit.

C'mon, ya can't remember the yellow demon with the bone-knives and the Stegosaurus Mohawk? He's was just plain nifty!

But the flint knife attack was nothing special because he just got a swipe not a great thrust. A steel knife and a normal person probably wouldn't have done much different.

You do know how sharp flint knives can be, right? They are remarkably good slashing weapons. Flint shards can have edges only a few microns (or was it micrometers, I can't remember accurately) in width. They're nearly surgical.

So because a bad idea occassionally works that means it's not?

More like consistently. We've seen vamps tire and wear down.

Sorry but it is a bad way to go about it. Leaving aside weapons, there are a hell of a lot better ways to inflict damage than just wailing away. Face it Buffy fights like you would expect her to. She's a bratty little teen that has some sporadic, inconsistent training and it shows.

Ya know, I can't effectly counter that argument. I could say that she does have 7+ years of experience against river, but then you'd counter with the overconfidence bit--which I already countered, but hey, it'd be valid to bring up in that instance.

Other than that, I think you have a point.

Or perhaps because it doesn't exist?

But there's evidence, and it fits nicely with the resistance to blunt trauma and falls! It works so elegantly!

Quick question: What kind of pitol was it that Warren shot Buffy with?
That's a Glock 9mm isn't it?

I may not have gotten up to that incident's quantification, but damned if it isn't a valdi piece of evidence.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2005-10-04 01:29am

Nope. Season 7's "Help" --- she's in the middle of a conversation when she snatches the crossbow bolt out of the air.

See aformentioned luck. All of the incidents appear to be just that, she just gets a "feeling" and gets lucky. Rarely does she demonstrate this in any sort of coordinated fighting.

Yes, I'm well aware of what causes phsycial injury and what does not--I've got a list of every single incident from the first 5 seasons and the first 2 episodes of the 6th. Wanna see? Ain't perfect, but it's something I can use for easy reference.

Which only goes to show that her superhuman reflexes and such don't

General or specific examples. Generally, I'd say: Look at the incidents with supheruman reflexes. Beyond that, I'll have to get back to you.

Proof that all combat occurs in some hypertime in which Buffy and the vampires (or whatever monster) move at some insane speed with superhuman reflexes? That's effectively what you're claiming despite the fact that Giles, Xander, Willow, Wesley, and others can all keep up in a fight.

This is one of the many reasons I love this board. So much new information.

?

Sorry for the profanity but basically Faith's knife, the weapon in question, is a collectors peice and nothing more. Only a fool would actually take it to be a functional peice. Horrible balance, weird surfacing; it's junk. Like I said I'm not suprised that it didn't do much damage, it's a lousy knife and Buffy was not going at Faith with truly homicidal intent.

Secondly, It's not Skin durability I'm talking about, it's overal body density. It goes in line with the resistance to falls and blunt trauma, as well as the wound incidents.

Either way, the incidents in general don't require too much to explain. Certainly nothing so far ranging as a speculative magical body density or what not. They are tough but not inhumanly so, at least not on anything like a consistant basis.

Got me there. Curse you english Language! CURSE YOU!

But to be fiar: Vamps tend to be near peak human ability at the very least.

Excepting vampires with some seniority like Angel or Spike, they tend to be better than a human of the same phsique and training would be. That's about all, it's nothing to get very excited about. Compared to real practioners of martial arts, they're nothing at all. There's a lot of human potential you just aren't crediting.

The stake in question penetraded her Kidney from what I could gather.

If it peirced that deep, she would have bleed out seriously and in all likelyhood have died of various things well before. So I find it dubious to assume that it peirced her kidney.

Here's the stake in question And you are right, it doesn't appear to be very sharp. Which is where the top-level human/above human strength comes in. The stake penetrated its entire tip and a little bit more--enough to hang there.

In order for my theory to work, it would have to be a vampire with a pretty good amount of strength. Darn.

It doesn't take too much pressure to punch a point through human flesh. I'm told by military people anyway, it's only about a pound per square inch. Or was it kilogram? Either way, it doesn't take too much force.

That it didn't penetrate further is probably an indication that the blow is what it appeared to be, delivered mostly by accident, sloppy, and largely the result the collision between them. It doesn't really make a superstrong vampire to suggest a pointed wooden stake could be driven into soft tissue.

C'mon, ya can't remember the yellow demon with the bone-knives and the Stegosaurus Mohawk? He's was just plain nifty!

Haven't watched the series in forever and never saw much of the third season save on FX.

You do know how sharp flint knives can be, right? They are remarkably good slashing weapons. Flint shards can have edges only a few microns (or was it micrometers, I can't remember accurately) in width. They're nearly surgical.

They can certainly be. However given that, if it's the real deal instead of museum replica peice, it's hand made and of indeterminate quality I would hardly overrate it. They can be nasty, but again a sharp steel steak knife or the like could probably reproduce it nicely.

And the quality of the knife is only part of it anyway. That she only got a shallow cut can easily be explained by the fact that he didn't get a swipe sufficient to go deeper. From the little I recall, it was not a particularly clean shot. It was a passing shot I do believe.

More like consistently. We've seen vamps tire and wear down.

Which doesn't change the fact that most her moves are flash and little more. She effectively uses her better resistance to pain (not damage, as we know she winds up bruised and bloodied) and stamina to simply batter away at vamps rather than fight effectively.

That's not how some one with proper training and experience should fight. Trust me, a real fight with some one trained is not going to last for much more than a few landed blows. At that point the person should be disabled, subdued, or crippled; only fools or entertainers will be beating on each for round after round.

Ya know, I can't effectly counter that argument. I could say that she does have 7+ years of experience against river, but then you'd counter with the overconfidence bit--which I already countered, but hey, it'd be valid to bring up in that instance.

I'll grant you that Buffy has seven, eight years experience. But as I said, Buffy lacks proper combat training and it shows. She might have experience but compared to River who is superbly trained, damn good, and fights to cripple or kill with a blow that's not nearly enough.

But there's evidence, and it fits nicely with the resistance to blunt trauma and falls! It works so elegantly!

My personal thought is just that Slayers simply have more of the bodies natural painkillers. It would explain Faith's rush (at least partially) and it would also explain why they can pull those stunt but how they can still wind up in comas and with debilitating injuries.

Quick question: What kind of pitol was it that Warren shot Buffy with?
That's a Glock 9mm isn't it?

No idea. I don't know my guns by sight by any means. You're best off talking to the Mess or HAB if you want to know.

I may not have gotten up to that incident's quantification, but damned if it isn't a valdi piece of evidence.

Looks to me like it's a pretty standard gunshot wound. Less blood but then again, for Tara to bleed out and die there should have been more blood. But either way, there isn't anything remarkable about the shot.

And the 9mm isn't exactly renowed as a man-stopper.

Xon · Post by **Xon** » 2005-10-04 06:54am

Stormbringer wrote:And the 9mm isn't exactly renowed as a man-stopper.

If anything a 9mm is renowed for not stopping someone when it counts.

Unless the person goes into shock or a lucky vital organ hit(brain/heart or a bleed out[and these are very visible]), a single 9mm round is fantastically useless at stopping someone who is already in a fighting mind-set.

Sure you might inflict a lethal wound, but it takes time todo the job.

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2005-10-04 08:21am

Stormbringer wrote:See aformentioned luck.

In other words you refuse to acknowledge the incident. Great. Next I'll have to post the Superhuman Reflexes List, won't I?

All of the incidents appear to be just that, she just gets a "feeling" and gets lucky. Rarely does she demonstrate this in any sort of coordinated fighting.

Where's your evidence for that?

Which only goes to show that her superhuman reflexes and such don't

No, it shows only what has caused her injury. Did you even read the list?

Proof that all combat occurs in some hypertime in which Buffy and the vampires (or whatever monster) move at some insane speed with superhuman reflexes?

Hold the phone. That's a blatant strawman. That is not my stance at all. I appologise if that is what I may have painted it as, but that was not my intent at all. The only claim I was making was that Buffy herself has superhuman reflexes. The Average vampire or monsters generally doesn't.

For an apt example, check out every time Buffy has fought human opponents ("Band Candy", "Spiral"), she usually gets in more blows than her opponents in those cases.

Do you want me to post all of the things she HAS dodged?

Sorry for the profanity

Sorry, but on this board, that phase tickles me to no end!

Either way, the incidents in general don't require too much to explain. Certainly nothing so far ranging as a speculative magical body density or what not. They are tough but not inhumanly so, at least not on anything like a consistant basis.

I disagree. Though not truely obscene, I still think the durability against such weapons is worth noting.

Excepting vampires with some seniority like Angel or Spike, they tend to be better than a human of the same phsique and training would be. That's about all, it's nothing to get very excited about. Compared to real practioners of martial arts, they're nothing at all. There's a lot of human potential you just aren't crediting.

Touche'

If it peirced that deep, she would have bleed out seriously and in all likelyhood have died of various things well before. So I find it dubious to assume that it peirced her kidney.

Did from what I saw. It's in the right location, and given how much of a twig she is and the depth of the wound, it more than likely hit the organ.

Does anyone know how far below the skin the Kidney lies?

It doesn't take too much pressure to punch a point through human flesh. I'm told by military people anyway, it's only about a pound per square inch. Or was it kilogram? Either way, it doesn't take too much force.

That it didn't penetrate further is probably an indication that the blow is what it appeared to be, delivered mostly by accident, sloppy, and largely the result the collision between them. It doesn't really make a superstrong vampire to suggest a pointed wooden stake could be driven into soft tissue.

Yeah, but one of my points is that her flesh is slightly denser than a normal human. Damnit, I can just see it sinking...

Haven't watched the series in forever and never saw much of the third season save on FX.

Ah. He's one of my favorite demon designs. He's just so atypical!

They can certainly be. However given that, if it's the real deal instead of museum replica peice, it's hand made and of indeterminate quality I would hardly overrate it.

It's the real deal Indian knife (Had to be for the spirit in question to be killed by it). Given the general skill they had in making flint tools, I'd say it's pretty sharp. I doubt it fulled much snce then. Most flint blades I've read from that period are still functonal. But I could be wrong.

They can be nasty, but again a sharp steel steak knife or the like could probably reproduce it nicely.

Which is why I cited the incident, since a blade that sharp did NOT produce that much of an injury.

And the quality of the knife is only part of it anyway. That she only got a shallow cut can easily be explained by the fact that he didn't get a swipe sufficient to go deeper. From the little I recall, it was not a particularly clean shot. It was a passing shot I do believe.

Damnit, someone (likely me) should check--but it'd have to be in a few days (Darn you College!)

Which doesn't change the fact that most her moves are flash and little more. She effectively uses her better resistance to pain (not damage, as we know she winds up bruised and bloodied) and stamina to simply batter away at vamps rather than fight effectively.

Do you want the list of "Blows taken without injury?" In fact, in season 2's "Ted" it was a plot point that he struck her and she showed no visible wounds at all.

That's not how some one with proper training and experience should fight. Trust me, a real fight with some one trained is not going to last for much more than a few landed blows. At that point the person should be disabled, subdued, or crippled; only fools or entertainers will be beating on each for round after round.

Metanarritively, you've hit the nail on the head in terms of how the fighting really works. This is a world where pro-wrestling moves work on monsters, after all!

Question: does this hold true when both combatants have skills in the fighting arts you site.

My personal thought is just that Slayers simply have more of the bodies natural painkillers. It would explain Faith's rush (at least partially) and it would also explain why they can pull those stunt but how they can still wind up in comas and with debilitating injuries.

And adrenaline as well. Gotta love adrenaline.

That would boost up the strenght of their healing abilities if that hypothesis holds true.

Looks to me like it's a pretty standard gunshot wound. Less blood but then again, for Tara to bleed out and die there should have been more blood. But either way, there isn't anything remarkable about the shot.

Hell, When Buffy cut someone's throat in Season 2's "What's my line" the original script had gallons of blood, but non appeared on screen.

And the 9mm isn't exactly renowed as a man-stopper.

Thankfuly it hit the heart. Still not sure how deep it penetrated. I'll have to wait for Wensday in order to make both checks. But given the Information GGS posted...my hypothesis may depend on how deep that sucker went.