Is the Force magic? Superman related.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2004-12-10 11:55am

I got into a playful debate at work the other day over whether Superman could be Jedi Mind tricked or Force choked because in the other guy's opinion The Force was equivalent to magic and so Superman would be vulnerable to a Jedi and essentially be the Jedi's bitch.

Jedi bitchmaking potential aside - IS the Force magic? My opinion it is not, it is obviously part of a natural order, an energy field generated by life that needs certain natural organisms to allow someone to manipulate it, but hardly magical.

Open to opposing views on this.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2004-12-10 12:00pm

Magic is traditionally considered part of nature. The force is essentially magic repackaged for the 21st century.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-12-10 12:06pm

Exact descriptions of magic vary pretty wildly; for instance, the Force sure as hell isn't WoD Awakened Magic. But, it's almost identical to Faerunian Magic. So, your Mileage May Vary.

That being said, the Force is very much similar to most views of magic.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-12-10 12:09pm

NecronLord wrote:Magic is traditionally considered part of nature. The force is essentially magic repackaged for the 21st century.

Huh? From a certain POV, magic is considered unnatural.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-12-10 12:11pm

Stofsk wrote:
NecronLord wrote:Magic is traditionally considered part of nature. The force is essentially magic repackaged for the 21st century.
Huh? From a certain POV, magic is considered unnatural.

Mostly by those who cling to the idea that technology is somehow 'more scientific'. Magic almost exclusively is either energy produced naturally, or exploiting rules inherent in the universe.. Also natural. Just because it's called supernatural don't make it so.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2004-12-10 12:36pm

Quite so. By definition, nothing is truly unnatural.

Most often, magic is something inherent in the world. Often linked with life too, I might add. In exactly the way the force is.

Eframepilot · Post by **Eframepilot** » 2004-12-10 06:52pm

By DC comics standards, the Force is more psionic than magical in nature. However, there are odd anomalies like Aleena(sp?) of the Krath turning some poor sap's tongue into a snake in Tales of the Jedi. Even if the Force were magical, Force chokes and mind tricks should be ineffective on Superman. He is very strong-minded (not to the extent of Hal Jordan, but close), and the Force choke acts by applying an actual physical force to the victim's throat and not by magically inducing choking. Plus, Superman doesn't need to breathe very often anyway.

A more interesting issue is what the effect of Force lightning on Superman would be. Would his invulnerability make him immune or would it affect him as much as a normal person? According to EU sources, Force lightning is special evil life-draining energy, so it might mess Superman up even if it weren't "magical". The much weaker animated version of Superman would definitely have trouble with it, as he is regularly challenged by even ordinary electricity.

Currald · Post by **Currald** » 2004-12-11 02:02pm

Uncle Owen does refer to Ben as an "old wizard."

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2004-12-11 03:55pm

Stravo wrote:I got into a playful debate at work the other day over whether Superman could be Jedi Mind tricked or Force choked because in the other guy's opinion The Force was equivalent to magic and so Superman would be vulnerable to a Jedi and essentially be the Jedi's bitch.

Well, according to Smallville, Clark Kent can be hurt by magic. When possessed by that old witch's spirit, Lana was bitch-slapping him around like nobody's business.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2004-12-12 02:53am

I don't think the Jedi Mind Trick would affect Clark. There was an episode of Smallville which gave Chloie the ability to get the truth out of anyone, and Clark wasn't affected. Also, the JMT works on the "weak minded".

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-12-12 05:03am

If...one can make somehow to convince the other party that the Force=Magic...Superman is screwed.

Now people can say "Well, Force Choke won't do shit since it applies physical force onto his neck!"

Wrong...magic, essentially by what DC comics defines of Superman, in regular canon essentially cuts through any of his abilities. His strength cannot affect it, his invulnerability does not exist. He is for all intents and purposes against offensive magic a regular human being....who can fly and shoot laser beams.

Now as for affecting his mind...it probably won't happen since he has fought against beings who have affected billions and maintained himself(Brainiac) as a show of resilience.

So ultimately it's whether or not could the Force be defined as what magic is generally accepted as.

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman · Post by **Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman** » 2004-12-12 01:30pm

To be more specific, guys, are we talking about Silver Age Superman or Post-Crisis Superman?

Zenithan · Post by **Zenithan** » 2004-12-12 02:30pm

It seems to me that the Force is extremely similar to magic, and, in most books I've read, magic is also part of the "natural order" of the universe, much like the Force. Magic could act much like Force Choke and apply physical force to one's neck, though it could also induce choking from the inside. I guess it's up to your opinion of the Force and magic.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2004-12-12 02:36pm

In the SW canon (ANH novel), it's mentioned that wizards and witches of primative cultures use the force to produce their effects.

Currald · Post by **Currald** » 2004-12-12 05:08pm

As near as I can tell, there are two possibilities, DC-Universe-wise:
1. The Force is magic
2. The Force is psionic.

Magic is drawn from the universe at large, whereas psionics are a product of a psychic's brain. The Force is all-encompassing, so (IMO) Force wielders are wizards, not psychics.

Eframepilot · Post by **Eframepilot** » 2004-12-12 05:18pm

But comic book universes are chock full of all-encompassing yet non-magical energy sources such as the Speed Force and the Source. The determinant of whether something is magical is generally whether it's labelled as magic or not. Also, magic in the DCU has a near-infinite variety of potential effects through spells, while the Force is somewhat more limited.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2004-12-12 05:32pm

Ghost Rider wrote:If...one can make somehow to convince the other party that the Force=Magic...Superman is screwed.
Now people can say "Well, Force Choke won't do shit since it applies physical force onto his neck!"
Wrong...magic, essentially by what DC comics defines of Superman, in regular canon essentially cuts through any of his abilities. His strength cannot affect it, his invulnerability does not exist. He is for all intents and purposes against offensive magic a regular human being....who can fly and shoot laser beams.

I think the point here is NOT that Clark's invunerability works against the Force (of which I don't really have an opinion, given that the Force fits in with everything from Psionics through metahuman telekinesis to magic) but that since the Force choke seems to work by strangulating people it's basically useless against a person who has to breathe about once every leap year (if at all). It's not that the Force choke's effects don't apply, it's just that they don't do shit.
A Force neck snap would be an entirely different matter.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2004-12-12 10:15pm

Durandal wrote:
Stravo wrote:I got into a playful debate at work the other day over whether Superman could be Jedi Mind tricked or Force choked because in the other guy's opinion The Force was equivalent to magic and so Superman would be vulnerable to a Jedi and essentially be the Jedi's bitch.
Well, according to Smallville, Clark Kent can be hurt by magic. When possessed by that old witch's spirit, Lana was bitch-slapping him around like nobody's business.

It's also according to Superman: The Ultimate Guide. He's totally vulnerable to magic, which is (other than kryptonite) just about his only weakness.

psyburn21 · Post by **psyburn21** » 2004-12-19 10:45pm

The only thing I can think of to base this decision on is that the main inspiriation for the Force is Lensmen psionics (He even used names almost identical to lensmen names on some of the drafts) and consider it a form of psionics.

Kon_El · Post by **Kon_El** » 2004-12-20 05:15am

The DCU also has a very "depending on the situation" attitude to wether somthing qualifies as "magic". The guy can be cut by magical swords but can go toe to toe with archangels,,,,, how are archangels not magical?

Its a very "If the writer feels like useing it" weakness.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-12-20 07:45am

Kon_El wrote:The DCU also has a very "depending on the situation" attitude to wether somthing qualifies as "magic". The guy can be cut by magical swords but can go toe to toe with archangels,,,,, how are archangels not magical?

Its a very "If the writer feels like useing it" weakness.

Not only that...Wonder Woman can't do shit with her Magical strength gifted from Zeus....but Billy Batson can?

That one has always made me fucking laugh.

Especially given the power upgrade she got from Byrne?!

Strider119 · Post by **Strider119** » 2004-12-20 01:20pm

I thought the force WAS considered magic in the original trilogy, and thusly star-wars fell more in the fantasy category instead of the sci-fi category

but once the retardedness that is metachloreans was introduced and a sort of scientific explanation of the force was given, star wars became more "sci fi".

I don't think the force is technically "magic", unless metachloreans are some sort of magical little creatures in jedi's blood.

big in japan:
strider119

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-12-20 03:55pm

Ghost Rider wrote:
Kon_El wrote:The DCU also has a very "depending on the situation" attitude to wether somthing qualifies as "magic". The guy can be cut by magical swords but can go toe to toe with archangels,,,,, how are archangels not magical?

Its a very "If the writer feels like useing it" weakness.
Not only that...Wonder Woman can't do shit with her Magical strength gifted from Zeus....but Billy Batson can?

That one has always made me fucking laugh.

Especially given the power upgrade she got from Byrne?!

he's also apparently vulnerable to vampire bites. . .because vampires are mystical creatures. . . .oi.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2004-12-20 04:01pm

Darth_Zod wrote: he's also apparently vulnerable to vampire bites. . .because vampires are mystical creatures. . . .oi.

And yet, while Dracula could mind-control AND bite him, the good Count did himself in when he tried to drink-because Clark's blood is apparently liquified sunlight.
'Continuity? Whazzat?'

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-12-20 04:03pm

Batman wrote:
Darth_Zod wrote: he's also apparently vulnerable to vampire bites. . .because vampires are mystical creatures. . . .oi.
And yet, while Dracula could mind-control AND bite him, the good Count did himself in when he tried to drink-because Clark's blood is apparently liquified sunlight.
'Continuity? Whazzat?'

was talking about the more recent JLA trade paperback actually. had some funky name for the vamp who was trying to bring back ancient vampires banished by the amazons. . . .when he tried drinking supes' blood, it was alien and thus poisonous to him. nothing about it being liquefied sunlight afaik. so much for continuity. . . .

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Is the Force magic? Superman related.

Is the Force magic? Superman related.

Re: Is the Force magic? Superman related.

Re: Is the Force magic? Superman related.