The Size of the Droid Army "Retconned"

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-07-11 05:51pm

Is TFN down for anyone else?

IceHawk-181 · Post by **IceHawk-181** » 2006-07-11 06:05pm

err...yup

Happens all the time...

All Hail Karen!!!!

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-07-11 06:47pm

Well, I'm able to get to the forums through the link a few pages back. Funny, with the exception of JediWampa's "Screw you guys, I'm going home!" bit, its pretty calm in there now, yet Ender_Sai justed popped in with a few potshots about death threats, observation being conjecture, and basically saying to shut up.

000 · Post by **000** » 2006-07-11 06:56pm

I'm still not entirely sure why people irritated with a detailed analysis of Star Wars bother posting about these things. I'm not a huge fan of, say, fanfic, but I don't go around sniping at people in the fanfic forum.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-07-11 10:57pm

Ender_Sai is all pissy about the fact that we are discussing this here. Everybody wave Hi at Ender_Sai. And at the person pulling his strings like the puppet he is.

*waves*

Post by **Surlethe** » 2006-07-11 11:00pm

*waves* Why is Ender_Sai disgruntled all of a sudden? This thread has half a hundred pages, and it's been publicly open since April or May.

Perhaps I should register at tf.net. I doubt I'd be welcome there; I wonder how long it would take for them to manufacture an offense to ban me over.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2006-07-11 11:00pm

Ender wrote:Ender_Sai is all pissy about the fact that we are discussing this here. Everybody wave Hi at Ender_Sai. And at the person pulling his strings like the puppet he is.

*waves*

Why the hell would he care what goes on here? Certainly, a bastion of logic and fairness such as he would not wish to sully himself with the musings of infidels like ourselves.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-07-11 11:09pm

Noble Ire wrote:
Ender wrote:Ender_Sai is all pissy about the fact that we are discussing this here. Everybody wave Hi at Ender_Sai. And at the person pulling his strings like the puppet he is.

*waves*
Why the hell would he care what goes no here? Certainly, a bastion of logic and fairness such as he would not wish to sully himself with the musings of infidels like ourselves.

Which is why I don't believe his claim he is a dispassionate observer.

I got a ban for "attacking the credibility" or Ms Traviss with my essay and asking Dan Wallace what he thought of it. I in no way violated the TOS or posted policies. Add that with the fact that he's annoyed about this thread, the fact that Ms Traviss just deleted/altered a bunch of LJ and blog entires and comments, and the fact that we know she puts the lean on people at TFN and I'd say the fact that she is trying to cover this up and suppress it is a safe conclusion.

Ender_Sai, you wanna talk this over like grown adults, you have my email. You are also welcome to register here of course. But this current line of bullshit is exactly that.

Sonnenburg · Post by **Sonnenburg** » 2006-07-11 11:21pm

Ender wrote:Ender_Sai is all pissy about the fact that we are discussing this here. Everybody wave Hi at Ender_Sai. And at the person pulling his strings like the puppet he is.

*waves*

Why be bothered? Does he take this issue personally? If so, then that's a bit of a problem he needs to work out. If not, then what does it matter to him? I shake my head at the antics of people on other boards, but I don't get bothered by the fact that the matters are being discussed.

000 · Post by **000** » 2006-07-11 11:31pm

Speaking as an active member of the TF.N LF for about two years-- an insider rather than outsider, you might say-- I'm mildly irritated by claims that the board has gone downhill and lost its "fun" due to this debate (which, like Ender noted over there, is confined to only a few threads).

The three million thing is NOTHING compared to some of the irritating crap that's been tolerated over there over the years. The hystrionics of a few posters over Zahn and Crispin in literally half the threads for months were incredibly obnoxious. The spoiled/spoiler free/whining/banning crap that went on around the time of RotS was annoying, although I admit unavoidable. This new debate has NOTHING on the "SSD Wars," and even those were confined to a select few threads (although they derailed the Fleet Junkie thread). The potentium 'debates' and constant bitching is annoying, the derailing of threads by certain posters to snipe about politics and morality is annoying, and, my personal peeve, the active "Fandalorian" role-playing and mee-tooing a few months back almost made me leave the boards. I was honestly glad when Traviss left the boards, not because of any real animosity toward her or her writings-- this was a week or so prior to GGAR, remember-- but because she had a tendancy to encourage excessive amounts of spam.

I fail to see why a thread or two about the GAR makes the boards inherently worse off.

It's also irritating how people who disagree with the GGAR and Odds numbers are lumped into the SDN, Saxtonite, Techie group-- not that that's a bad thing, of course-- when the fact is that a large number of users who don't give two shits about starships or whatever oppose it. I myself favor a realistic view of SW and enjoy reading about tech, but I'm also interested in a wide variety of other things (and post about them). There are many like me.

I apologise for the length of this rant, but I felt it had to be said. I like the TF.N LF, whatever its flaws, and I hate seeing a dim view of things lately being painted. In my mind it's on an upswing right now, although the loss of some old posters and the return of certain elements might herald another downswing (to be fair though, some long-departed posters who I enjoyed reading have returned, albeit at times under different guises.)

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2006-07-12 01:25am

Ender wrote:Ender_Sai is all pissy about the fact that we are discussing this here. Everybody wave Hi at Ender_Sai. And at the person pulling his strings like the puppet he is.

*waves*

dp4m wrote:Think of it like Vegas: What happens on LJ, stays on LJ. We have our policies. What you do outside of here is none of our business.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2006-07-12 05:59am

You'll note that most of these "problems" as they're called stem largely from the manipulations and propaganda BS performed by Traviss and her supporters. Indeed, Traviss seems hell-bent on sustaining the whole issue far beyond the point most of us really care about it (if it did.) I know I gave up thinking about it for several weeks, only to come back and find out she's STILL harping on the issue.

Add to the fact she's still actively searching out sources of dissent and seeking to crush them, and its a small wonder at the result. Traviss is clearly obsessed with the issue, and she takes any criticism of her work personally (hence the "Talifan' thing.)

What I find funny is tht she really is, to my knowledge, the only real Star Wars author who has ever thrown a hissy fit like this over what is really a minor issue. Indeed, the whole reason most people seem to be bending over on this is because she's making a big deal out of it. Most other Star Wars authors don't really even seem to care or eventually move on to do better (or more profitable) things with their time (IE KJA.) Traviss, on the other hand, seems dead set on maintaining a vendetta at all costs.

IceHawk-181 · Post by **IceHawk-181** » 2006-07-12 05:20pm

I first realized how incredulous the posters at TF.N truly are when, a year ago, I was entangled in a Great Depression/FDR Debate.

I had a long-winded post citing BLS, BEA, NBER, Harvard Studies, and Cato Studies, with specific details on economic indicators.

My opponent continued to post replies with the phrase, “I believe…” substituted for evidence.

When I realized the SOP of TF.N held that his view points were equal in stature to my detailed statistics, and that I had to “respect & accept” the disagreement in lieu of any actual debate, I think I left a fist-shaped hole in my wall…

The “fun” of TF.N has not disappeared because of the Clone Debate; it did not disappear with the Executor debate, or the Starship classification debate, all of which are on-going in various threads.

A few influential moderators with personal vested interest in the outcome of the debate and the popularity of Karen Traviss have seen fit to literally exceed the TOS in great extent to suppress any critique of Karen Traviss, her writing, or her professionalism.

TF.N is, always has been, and remains a haven for the fan boys and their interpretations of all things Star Wars.

Remember, we need to respect everyone and thier opinions, because no one really can say what is right.

…and please refrain from using any overly harsh or critical language, Golden Rule everyone

Post by **Surlethe** » 2006-07-12 05:25pm

IceHawk-181 wrote:…and please refrain from using any overly harsh or critical language, Golden Rule everyone

Do they actually cite that? Because I would actually prefer someone to correct me if I were mistaken, and even flame me if I persisted, rather than be coddled and treated like a porcelain baby -- does this mean that I can do the same to others at TF.net?

IceHawk-181 · Post by **IceHawk-181** » 2006-07-12 05:29pm

"Avoid inflammatory language..." - Rouge_Follower

We are not allowed to dismiss another argument as illogical even if we can prove it to be a Fallacy.

Look at the thread over at TF.N

Apparently now Mods enforce Canon...

...next time Ewok says something about 5-Mile Executors I am going to *politely remind him of board policy...

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2006-07-12 05:46pm

Surlethe wrote:
IceHawk-181 wrote:…and please refrain from using any overly harsh or critical language, Golden Rule everyone
Do they actually cite that? Because I would actually prefer someone to correct me if I were mistaken, and even flame me if I persisted, rather than be coddled and treated like a porcelain baby -- does this mean that I can do the same to others at TF.net?

I think they'll hold you to a 'be nice' rather than a 'golden rule' standard.

I'm usually a voice asking for calmer and more respectful tones of debate, but please, the idea that you can hide behind niceness is moronic. A measured, non-angry tone stems from a desire for reasoned debate, not from the fear of hurting feelings! If someone is being unreasonable and refusing to consider a critique then they've lost their immunity from harsh criticism.

If something is fallacious, or completely illogical, or utterly unreasonable to the point where they really need to back it up--and they don't, or get pissed when you ask them to, then it's really not your fault that whacking them with the lead-pipe of harsh language is the only way to get through to them.

Respect is something that people generally do deserve, I believe, but it's also something they can lose if they act like children in a debate. I just felt like tossing that in--I get a lot of people pissed off because I see that just leaping to harsh language doesn't solve anything and just makes you seem like a raving fanatic. But choking off the ability to criticize, or asking someone to avoid calling someone on over bullshit, is never a sound policy.

IceHawk-181 · Post by **IceHawk-181** » 2006-07-12 06:03pm

You know what Covenant, just shut the fu...

...yeah I tend to agree with that particular sentiment.

I attempt to force logical and cordial debate, and am usually rewarded with a heaping pile of Logical Fallacy.

Oh well....

I have yet to find a mod at TF.N that is actually in disagreement with the 3-Million number.

Are there any?

Darth Culator · Post by **Darth Culator** » 2006-07-12 10:09pm

Dark Moose hates me!

YAY!

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-07-12 10:23pm

Consider how shocked I would be if they included KT's quote here in those quotes, along with the source - this blog.

How likely is that? I'd actually like to see that - some balance. It's possible they might allow it..but everything points to the idea that they won't.

Like I say...I'd be shocked. It wouldn't be the first time.

DM out

A quote where she declares quoting her in context is evil? Why wouldn't that be included?

EDIT: Low and behold, it already was.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2006-07-12 10:32pm

Darth Culator wrote:Dark Moose hates me!

YAY!

If there was anything to his blog other than a thinly veiled and overly-wordy whine about how someone insulted Karen Traviss and, perish the thought, might insult him (I'll admit, I did think about modifying his article to include the truth about his dictatorial Mod style, but I thought that might be improper), I missed it. And it's nice to see KT is still stalking sites, searching for references to her so she can charge in and rail against her "stalkers".

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-07-12 10:34pm

And whipped bitches they are, people are calling for a VFD for the quotes page. I have already saved the stuff there, so at least it won't get lost.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2006-07-13 01:13am

Dark Mooseknuckle wrote:But when they continuously allow slanted, biased material, especially of a disparaging nature, I realize I'd never want to be part of that, nor would I ever refer to it or use it for my own purposes. I have no idea if what I'm reading is born from a desire to report fact, or constructed from a need to twist facts.

Oh, you mean like this, you fucking hypocrite?

Dark Mooseknuckle wrote:But someone at Wookieepedia has a beef with you, or something you've said. Next thing you know, someone has cast about the net to find quotes from you from various blogs and message boards. Every single thing you've ever said in print. And then they throw it together in such a way that makes you look unreasonable, or contradictory.

You meanlike this, or like this, you fucking hypocrite?

Dark Mooseknuckle wrote:You don't like it. You decide to contact Wookieepedia to have it removed but...who do you contact? And where are the standards? Are you going to make a lone contributor change your article, when they're the one that posted it?

Funny, I got the exact same impression when I tried contacting the webmaster to starwars.com about your personal attack blog on me. Got no answer, which isn't surprising.

Dark Mooseknuckle wrote:Did anyone find that unfair? Did anyone suspect I twisted the situation?

You're well versed in that.

Dark Mooseknuckle wrote:If you read those orphaned quotes without the comments around them, or the venue in which they were offered, someone might thing there was only one side of that opinion. And if I did that on purpose, that means I wanted to "put words in your mouth" - make you look you were saying something you weren't necessarily trying to say. That's the latest thing they've pulled off over there. It's as opposed to encyclopedic, neutral standards as you can get.

And what about little fucktards like you who use your position on sw.com as a bully pulpit that no one can disagree with? Fucking hypocrite.

KT Jelly wrote:As the victim of this stalking-by-Wookieepedia

Shut your fucking hole, attention whore.

KT Jelly wrote:These people have stated publicly on another site that they want to end my career. For some odd reason, that looks "bad" to me, but maybe I'm missing the point.

KT Hypocrite wrote:"Fascinating. Utterly fascinating. My gut reaction is that they all need garotting, but my rational self finds it all...fascinating."

KT Hypocrite wrote:"Something got right up our collective noses. So we vented our spleen to each other, unable to target the object of our shared rage - not with the ordnance we preferred, anyway - and felt a bit better. And it's at times like this that I say thank God for Mando'a.

KT Hypocrite wrote:"Developing the language has saved my sanity more than once. Driven to the brink of ripping someone's trachea out of their pitifully unworthy neck, I can now step back from the precipice by rushing to my spreadsheet and creating a few more choice insults and anatomically impossible instructions."

Gee, this looks "bad" to me.

Dark Mooseknuckle wrote:It's a highly irresponsible, abusive and selfish practice, and I have to wonder if it is encouraged over there. And I do wonder if anyone has bothered to tell the admins at Wookieepedia what it looks like.

This guy must be the lord of projectionism.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2006-07-13 07:56am

Connor MacLeod wrote:You'll note that most of these "problems" as they're called stem largely from the manipulations and propaganda BS performed by Traviss and her supporters. Indeed, Traviss seems hell-bent on sustaining the whole issue far beyond the point most of us really care about it (if it did.) I know I gave up thinking about it for several weeks, only to come back and find out she's STILL harping on the issue.
What I find funny is tht she really is, to my knowledge, the only real Star Wars author who has ever thrown a hissy fit like this over what is really a minor issue. Indeed, the whole reason most people seem to be bending over on this is because she's making a big deal out of it. Most other Star Wars authors don't really even seem to care or eventually move on to do better (or more profitable) things with their time (IE KJA.) Traviss, on the other hand, seems dead set on maintaining a vendetta at all costs.

What I really don't get is this.

How on earth did the very idea that Karen was being hounded by death threats and other shit even spread, while the shit that she did just remained queit and off the radar?

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-07-13 08:19am

PainRack wrote:What I really don't get is this.

How on earth did the very idea that Karen was being hounded by death threats and other shit even spread, while the shit that she did just remained queit and off the radar?

I think it's quite simple. Traviss bitches about the misogynist abusive Talifans, and the asskissing fanboys buy her every word. Meanwhile, places like TFN and SW.com (Dark Moose's domain) crack down on anybody who questions her character.

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2006-07-13 06:01pm

PainRack wrote: How on earth did the very idea that Karen was being hounded by death threats and other shit even spread, while the shit that she did just remained queit and off the radar?

As Jim noted, when her Fandalorians aren't furiously fellating the rancid twat, they're busy covering her tracks and going apeshit on potential dissenters.

(Hi, Dark Moose. I'm sure you're reading, so I wanted to say: feel free to quote me on that -- but only provided you do me a teensy favor first.

Don't take the quote out of context and label me a misogynist, 'k? After all, far be it for you to strawmander what your "half-dozen Talifan enemies" say, right?

See, I don't dislike women in general -- quite the contrary. I just dislike your self-appreciating, welcomed-the-fire-but-couldn't-take-the-heat-and-now-won't-get-the-fuck-out-of-the-kitchen, whiny, mentally unstable and overall royal asshole of a pseudo-pal, Karen.

More simply stated: that she's a woman is beside the point. That she's acts like a spoiled child is the gist of all this. Got that?

Credit me as "Sean," too, if you can't help yourself and do indeed scribble all this down. Thanks.

Fuck you very much,
-Sean)