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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-24 01:11pm
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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-24 01:16pm
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Grasscutter wrote:
Vicious wrote:
TK 12746 wrote:
I agree with corsair. And in the Novelization, it mentions that Palpatine had a holdout lightsaber in his robes just in case. So the loss of the lightsaber wouldn't have hindered him. He begged and pleaded for his life to convince Anakin. It would have been harder to get Anakin to aid him if Palpatine was fighting Mace Windu and at least holding his own.


Emphasis mine. Please, provide the quote and page number where it mentions this.
I tried that, unfortunately. So has Lord Wong, and several others. He has consistently failed to provide any kind of proof for his statements. This guy is a marvel of the Broken Record and Wall of Ignorance styles of "debating".



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-24 01:35pm
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I think at this point, that douchebaggian fuckwit has actually lied about saying that Palpantine had a holdout lightsaber in his duel with Windu more times than he actually said that Palpantine had a holdout lightsaber in his duel with Windu.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-24 01:39pm
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Flagg wrote:
I think at this point, that douchebaggian fuckwit has actually lied about saying that Palpantine had a holdout lightsaber in his duel with Windu more times than he actually said that Palpantine had a holdout lightsaber in his duel with Windu.
:lol: Nah, by my count he's still got a few more to go, but don't worry, he's sure to keep trying until someone terminates his ass.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-24 03:08pm
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Question:
TK 12746 wrote:
And give me a quote where I actually say the novelization shows that Palpatine had a holdout lightsaber during his duel with Windu.


Answers:
TK 12746 wrote:
And in the Novelization, it mentions that Palpatine had a holdout lightsaber in his robes just in case. So the loss of the lightsaber wouldn't have hindered him.
TK 12746 wrote:
And in the Novelization, it mentions that Palpatine had a holdout lightsaber in his robes just in case.
TK 12746 wrote:
According to the novilization, Palpy had two lightsabers, one was his regular lightsaber which he lost in the fight with Mace Windu, the second was the holdout liightsaber he used against yoda (it came out of his sleeve). He still could have stabbed Mace Windu instead of frying himself.
Very clear statements. Good, good.


"You misunderstand."
TK 12746 wrote:
Wong and like consistantly misunderstood my statemnents. Every time I said that the novelization proved that Palpatine had a second lightsaber, they always thought that I meant it proved he had one at the duel, that is not what I meant.
TK 12746 wrote:
I say things that you misunderstand. You then assume that I mean during the fight with WIndu as opposed to just having a holdout lightsaber.
You say that people misunderstand, but that is just another lie.

TK 12746 wrote:
I have not been lying.
This is yet another lie. You are, in fact, lying. Lying about lying!. You made yourself very clear in your earlier statements, when you lied about the novelization providing information that it does not. There is no misunderstanding; the clarity and concise nature of your earlier fallacious statements are commendable.

You proceed to lie about your earlier lies, building up layer after layer of filthy lies like grime on an oventop. You have to understand that no matter how much you want to, you can't backtrack and pretend it never happened. Pretending to do so, and making statements based on the incorrect fantasy events, is lying.

I suppose there is a possibility aside from you being a (pathological?) liar. Are you schizophrenic?



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-24 03:30pm
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I'm jumping in here late without reading the rest of the thread (8 pages, ha!) but doesn't the whole "he had a holdout saber" thing come straight from the ROTS Visual Dictionary? I don't recall it being explained in the movie or novel...

If he always had two sabers on him, it begs the question why he didn't use two at once. ;)

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-24 03:36pm
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Well, in the novel his Sabre kinda gets chopped in two, so Stover *had* to quickly mention that Sidious had a spare. However, since in the novel before the Mace duel Sidious extracts *precisely one sabre* from a sculpture in his bedroom there's nothing to back up Trooper's claims.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-24 03:41pm
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Kurgan wrote:
I'm jumping in here late without reading the rest of the thread (8 pages, ha!) but doesn't the whole "he had a holdout saber" thing come straight from the ROTS Visual Dictionary? I don't recall it being explained in the movie or novel...

If he always had two sabers on him, it begs the question why he didn't use two at once. ;)
It really pays to read the thread. He basically makes the contention that since he has two lightsabers, period, that he must have had it on him during the fight with Windu, despite never using it and wearing completely different robes in the fight with Yoda (which is when he used the hold-out). He's failed repeatedly to provide any evidence that Palpatine had the saber on him, and has indeed lied repeatedly about making that contention in the first place after I quoted him no less than 8 times saying that very damn thing. Then he lied again trying to claim he didn't lie and we just "misunderstand" everything he says. We understand it just find. We understand it's utter bullshit and he's a lying sack of semen who tosses his opinions off like facts and expects everyone to just nod and smile.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-24 03:47pm
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Kurgan wrote:
I'm jumping in here late without reading the rest of the thread (8 pages, ha!) but doesn't the whole "he had a holdout saber" thing come straight from the ROTS Visual Dictionary? I don't recall it being explained in the movie or novel...

If he always had two sabers on him, it begs the question why he didn't use two at once. ;)


Read the fucking thread you moron.

It's not whther the hold out comes from the Visual dictionary, or there are giant letter over Palpatine's head saying"I'm faking it, I have teh TWO lightsabers!!!!", TK1728946 has backpedalled on the damn subject more then once, and failed to produce evidence other then being vague about it, and has been trying to prove a negative.

Next time, read the fucking thread instead of going "Hyuck, I'm late but I want to add my two points of spam, nyuck, nyuck"



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-24 07:15pm
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Trooper TK12746 wrote:
I said that he probably had his lightsaber during the fight with Mace, I said the novelization made it clear that Palpatine owned a second holdout lightsaber. I never claimed the novelization said he had it during the fight with Yoda. I just said the novelization said he had a second lightsaber. I think he had the lightsaber on him in his duel with Windu, which would have allowed him to stop Windu's attack if Anakin didn't stop him.


Using unlimited force lightning would have been my first guess, but Sidious does have proven speed. I think by then, though, he had lost. The mutation injury should have taken a lot out of him, physically. Mace had the drop on him, was pretty murder-minded, and not too badly affected by the initial force lightning attack.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-24 08:01pm
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Vicious Wrote:
Quote:
It really pays to read the thread. He basically makes the contention that since he has two lightsabers, period, that he must have had it on him during the fight with Windu, despite never using it and wearing completely different robes in the fight with Yoda (which is when he used the hold-out). He's failed repeatedly to provide any evidence that Palpatine had the saber on him, and has indeed lied repeatedly about making that contention in the first place after I quoted him no less than 8 times saying that very damn thing. Then he lied again trying to claim he didn't lie and we just "misunderstand" everything he says. We understand it just find. We understand it's utter bullshit and he's a lying sack of semen who tosses his opinions off like facts and expects everyone to just nod and smile


If one has a holdout weapon, it only makes sense to wear it during an endgame. It's just that Palpatine dosen't seem to plan for unforseen conclusions to his plots that makes this legitimate conjecture unlikely. Although the backup is never mentioned in the novel or movie as being in the same scene, there was also no reason to waste word or film on either.

A holdout lightsaber can be held in an arm holster, ankle holster or in a tunic or similar garment worn underneath a robe; they aren't that big and Palpatine could not wear such gear too openly anyway. Changing his loose flowing outer robes wouldn't change the prescence or absence of a holdout saber.

Unfortunately, even if you were to ask the actor and stunt people, you would not be able to prove he was wearing a backup lightsaber. They only use what the scene demands. Lucas might know; on the other hand he's not so good with details and had been known to change them, and get touchy about being challenged on them, because he wants his viewers to be paying attention to the big story.

Taking the movie as a real-life right-there sort of thing, Palpatine should have his holdout lightsaber on him, however, he's also arrogant enough to forget it. I haven't read the novel, but by this thread, apparently he does have two lightsabers, and one is designed as a smaller backup weapon, not a spare main weapon.

It does make sense that he might fully arm himself. Anakin had gone off to tell the Jedi Council he is a Sith, yet instead of runnng away, or summoning more loyal guards, or implementing order 66, he instead planned to stay and fight, alone, with no other weapons. Even if Sidious was far superior to Mace and an elite team of Jedi - and he did not seem to prepare for any other encounter - things can go wrong, and a backup lightsaber might come in handy. An experienced duellist, which Sidious might not be, would pack the backup saber, so TK 12746 is not incorrect or misleading to suggest it could have been there.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-24 08:55pm
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General Brock wrote:
Vicious Wrote:
Quote:
It really pays to read the thread. He basically makes the contention that since he has two lightsabers, period, that he must have had it on him during the fight with Windu, despite never using it and wearing completely different robes in the fight with Yoda (which is when he used the hold-out). He's failed repeatedly to provide any evidence that Palpatine had the saber on him, and has indeed lied repeatedly about making that contention in the first place after I quoted him no less than 8 times saying that very damn thing. Then he lied again trying to claim he didn't lie and we just "misunderstand" everything he says. We understand it just find. We understand it's utter bullshit and he's a lying sack of semen who tosses his opinions off like facts and expects everyone to just nod and smile


If one has a holdout weapon, it only makes sense to wear it during an endgame. It's just that Palpatine dosen't seem to plan for unforseen conclusions to his plots that makes this legitimate conjecture unlikely. Although the backup is never mentioned in the novel or movie as being in the same scene, there was also no reason to waste word or film on either.

A holdout lightsaber can be held in an arm holster, ankle holster or in a tunic or similar garment worn underneath a robe; they aren't that big and Palpatine could not wear such gear too openly anyway. Changing his loose flowing outer robes wouldn't change the prescence or absence of a holdout saber.

Unfortunately, even if you were to ask the actor and stunt people, you would not be able to prove he was wearing a backup lightsaber. They only use what the scene demands. Lucas might know; on the other hand he's not so good with details and had been known to change them, and get touchy about being challenged on them, because he wants his viewers to be paying attention to the big story.

Taking the movie as a real-life right-there sort of thing, Palpatine should have his holdout lightsaber on him, however, he's also arrogant enough to forget it. I haven't read the novel, but by this thread, apparently he does have two lightsabers, and one is designed as a smaller backup weapon, not a spare main weapon.

It does make sense that he might fully arm himself. Anakin had gone off to tell the Jedi Council he is a Sith, yet instead of runnng away, or summoning more loyal guards, or implementing order 66, he instead planned to stay and fight, alone, with no other weapons. Even if Sidious was far superior to Mace and an elite team of Jedi - and he did not seem to prepare for any other encounter - things can go wrong, and a backup lightsaber might come in handy. An experienced duellist, which Sidious might not be, would pack the backup saber, so TK 12746 is not incorrect or misleading to suggest it could have been there.
Regardless of whether it makes sense or not, there is no evidence to support the point, therefor it is wrong. If he had it, he would have used it. This uber-Palpatine fanwank that Palpatine had forseen the whole thing is bullshit. Palpatine is clever and cunning, but Miss Fucking Cleo he isn't. He failed to forsee Anakin turning on him in RotJ. He failed to forsee Darth Maul's death in TPM. TK 12746 has been attempting to prove this point for a couple of days now, and he's failed completely, and to top it off he lied about ever making the point in the first place, then when called on it he lied about lying! Those are major violations of board policy.
Debating Rules wrote:
5. Do not employ the "broken record" debating style. Continuously repeating yourself regardless of what others say is a quick way to get banned.

6. If you are asked for evidence to support a claim you've made, you should either produce this evidence or concede the point until such time as you can produce this evidence. People who consistently ignore requests for evidence to support their claims (particularly contentious claims) are not looked upon kindly here.
Notice that he's already lost sig and avatar privileges and has still not complied with the demands set for him.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-24 09:08pm
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I said specifically stated that he lost the first one in the fight with WIndu and had the second one in the fight with Yoda. I never actually stated that the novelization said he had both at the fight with Windu. I said the novelization said that he had two lightsabers. WHich you interpretated as meaning that I claimed that the novelization shows that he had two at the fight with Windu. Whether or not that point is wrong. I was not lying. I was misunderstood. I have provided counterexamples.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-24 09:27pm
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Trooper TK12746 wrote:
I said specifically stated that he lost the first one in the fight with WIndu and had the second one in the fight with Yoda. I never actually stated that the novelization said he had both at the fight with Windu. I said the novelization said that he had two lightsabers. WHich you interpretated as meaning that I claimed that the novelization shows that he had two at the fight with Windu. Whether or not that point is wrong. I was not lying. I was misunderstood. I have provided counterexamples.


Are you mentally retarded, or have you smoked so much crack that you have the most severe case of short term memory loss known to man? How many fucking times do people have to post YOUR OWN FUCKING WORDS that you typed down not 72 hours ago against you before you stop lying, and admit you are a fucking idiot and are dead wrong? How fucking hard is it to just say "hey, I was wrong, I concede the point"? No one is asking for your balls here (if you had any), or for your first born child (if you could convince a living female human to let her insert your penis into her, let alone father a little tardling of your own with her). I mean how fucking stupid do you have to be not to realize that your compounding lies make you look like so much cuntal discharge?



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Last edited by Flagg on 2005-06-24 09:30pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-24 09:28pm
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Trooper TK12746 wrote:
I said specifically stated that he lost the first one in the fight with WIndu and had the second one in the fight with Yoda. I never actually stated that the novelization said he had both at the fight with Windu. I said the novelization said that he had two lightsabers. WHich you interpretated as meaning that I claimed that the novelization shows that he had two at the fight with Windu. Whether or not that point is wrong. I was not lying. I was misunderstood. I have provided counterexamples.
"Whiskey Tango Foxtrot! Are we not getting through? Try boosting the power of the transmitter. Over. *flunky fiddles with dials* "We're at max power, sir! Not getting any kind of return signal except static. Wait a minute, picking up something...it's the same thing we heard earlier...sounds like a Broken Record!" :banghead: :banghead: :kill: :kill:
Fine. You spew it, I'll refute it. Again and again and again.

Vicious wrote:
TK 12736 wrote:
I said that he probably had his lightsaber during the fight with Mace, I said the novelization made it clear that Palpatine owned a second holdout lightsaber. I never claimed the novelization said he had it during the fight with Yoda. I just said the novelization said he had a second lightsaber. I think he had the lightsaber on him in his duel with Windu, which would have allowed him to stop Windu's attack if Anakin didn't stop him.



Explain this statement:
TK 12746 wrote:
According to the novilization, Palpy had two lightsabers, one was his regular lightsaber which he lost in the fight with Mace Windu, the second was the holdout liightsaber he used against yoda (it came out of his sleeve). He still could have stabbed Mace Windu instead of frying himself.

See anything there? Or are you too fucking stupid to realize no one buys your bullshit?

TK 12746 wrote:
I never claimed the novelization said he had it during the fight with Yoda.

Is this a typo? Or are you just really fucking dense? Of course Palps had his back-up lightsaber during the fight with Yoda, because his main lightsaber got kicked out the fucking window!

You've been claiming left and right that the book says Palps had his back-up lightsaber on him during the fight with Mace. Or shall I post more quotes of your Wall of Ignorance? If these have just been your opinions, then why the fuck have you been throwing them around like facts, asshole?


Vicious wrote:
TK 12746 wrote:
I have repeatedly stated that the novelization states that Palpatine had a backup lightsaber. A Backup weapon complements a regular weapon, a holdout weapon is used as a last resort. This is why I think he would have had the backup on him. Show me a quotation where I specifically state that the novelization supports Palpatine having a second lightsaber with Windu (not just having a second lightsaber).



Asshole, did you not even read my fucking post? Or any of my others where I quote you? You do know TK 12746 is you, right?

TK 12746 wrote:
It says that he had a lightsaber somewhere else that was guided into Palpatine's sleeves (which means he could have had it in his hand), and that in another case he already had a backup in his sleeve. And the backup weapon is usually kept with the primary weapon in reality. If you have a pistol as a backup weapon, you won't keep it in the regimental barracks while your out fighting. You keep it on your person just in case. And I only said that it showed that he did indeed have two lightsabers. There is no proof he did not have it with him in the fight with Windu.



Let's see if I can find some more, shall we?

TK 12746 wrote:
(In reference to the quotes from the book)
1. Palpatine takes a lightsaber out of a hidden location and puts it into a his hand, which is concealed by his large sleeves.

2. Later, Palpatine has a backup lightsaber (key word backup, not replacement) in his sleeve, presumably in his sleeve holster.

YOu have no proof that the first lightsaber was in a sleeve holster or that he didn't have it with him in the duel with Mace Windu. Palpatine barely twitched until he pulled out his lightsaber and killed the three Jedi. It could very well have been resting in his hand. In the Yoda fight, it was in his sleeve (presumably in a holster) and came into his outstretched hand. Backups are used to supplement the primaries, not replace them. Palpatine wouldn't have his holdout lightsaber off his person when he knows there is going to be a fight.

And even if it was off his person, he could still use the force to summon the holdout lightsaber and impale windu with it.

Oh, lookey! Another claim that Palps had his back-up on him during the Windu fight! Or that he could have summoned it from some unmentioned location and stabbed a Jedi Master in the back, which is even more full of shit. And don't pull this semantic wordgames bullshit. He used his back-up in the fight with Yoda. Or are you now going to claim he has three lightsabers?

TK 12746 wrote:
He had one, the novelization makes that clear. The fact that he didn't use the backup lightsaber shows that he was throwing the fight. He could have easily used it to stab Windu or at least deflect his blow once Palpy's primary lightsaber was gone.

And I havn't seen the movie in a couple weeks, so your probably right about lightsaber in holster thing. But why couldn't he have two holsters?

And even if he doesn't have the backup on him, why can he not summon the lightsaber from behind Windu and impale him with it?

And again!

TK 12746 wrote:
No, in the novelization, Palpy had his original lightsaber in a neuranium statue, he then summoned it into his sleeve, where it later slid into his hand for the fight with Windu (and the other Jedi). His holdout lightsaber was in his sleeve already when he fought with Yoda.

Your visual evidence could show that Palpy made it appear that he was helpless but really still had another lightsaber in his sleeve just in case.

Gasp! Another one! Shall I dig up more? Just say so! I've only gotten up to page 5. Think there's at least one more on page 6. After I started posting quotes of your bullshit, you've been backpedalling and lying through your teeth. Tip for ya, bucko: In a public discussion, don't try lying about what you said when there is written evidence to the contrary. It's just bad form.
Vicious wrote:
TK 12746 wrote:
I have not been lying. Wong and like consistantly misunderstood my statemnents. Every time I said that the novelization proved that Palpatine had a second lightsaber, they always thought that I meant it proved he had one at the duel, that is not what I meant. My belief is that he had one at the duel, while the novelization proves that Palpatine had two lightsabers in his possesion during RotS.

Ok, fuckwad. Welcome to Sith Justice. Let me quote you:

TK 12746 wrote:
I agree with corsair. And in the Novelization, it mentions that Palpatine had a holdout lightsaber in his robes just in case. So the loss of the lightsaber wouldn't have hindered him. He begged and pleaded for his life to convince Anakin. It would have been harder to get Anakin to aid him if Palpatine was fighting Mace Windu and at least holding his own.

Now, this seems to indicate that you believe, according to the novelization, Palatine had his hold-out lightsaber on him during the fight with Mace. We have asked repeatedly for evidence of this. Quotes from the book, page numbers to verify the timing of events, etc. You have consistently failed to prove this point, and have subsequently lied about ever making it. You have now been charged with an ultimatium to concede. Not a request. A demand. Lying about your past actions and words is against board policy and you still claim you weren't lying, but were merely "misunderstood"? If you still believe you were misunderstood, explain every single fucking quote I posted of you attempting to back up your claims with some sort of evidence. No one bought it, no one buys it now and everyone can see you are full of shit. I don't know if you realized it, but when you make claims that contradict the accepted interpretation of events, YOU have to provide proof. You haven't done so, have been called upon this repeatedly and lied about ever making that claim. Get off the fucking novelization. That's not the issue. The issue is you lying about making a claim which you made and attempted to defend no less than eight times.
Have you gotten it yet? Or do I need to come physically pound it into your skull with very large bricks? :evil:

P.S.: Bolded bits are my comments which I found pertinent.
P.P.S: I apologize for the extremely large post size, but nothing is working. I figured concentrated fire might work better than sporadic fire.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-24 09:28pm
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Trooper TK12746 wrote:
I said specifically stated that he lost the first one in the fight with WIndu and had the second one in the fight with Yoda. I never actually stated that the novelization said he had both at the fight with Windu. I said the novelization said that he had two lightsabers. WHich you interpretated as meaning that I claimed that the novelization shows that he had two at the fight with Windu. Whether or not that point is wrong. I was not lying. I was misunderstood. I have provided counterexamples.

Listen you stupid fucking asshole, you claimed he had two lightsabres IN A DEBATE ABOUT THE WINDU FIGHT. Countless examples have been given of you mentioning this mythical second sabre in relation to the Windu fight. And for that matter, ANY mention of this mythical second sabre in relation to this thread is a GODDAMNED RED HERRING unless you can provide evidence that he had it on him. So stop fucking lying, you little ass-wipe. This is your last warning. There is no second sabre for the purposes of this thread unless you can provide evidence that he had one on him at the time. Either provide the necessary evidence or concede, shithead.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-24 09:31pm
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I have provided evidence that the second lightsaber does exist. I have not claimed that the novelization proved that it was in the WIndu fight. I believe it would be in the Windu fight because there is no point in haveing a backup if it is unavailible should hte primary fail. I do think he had it in the WIndu fight, but I didn't say the novelization proves it. I provided quotes earlier from the novelization that stated the existence of the second lightsaber, it isn't mythical.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-24 09:34pm
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Spirit of Vengeance
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Joined: 2002-09-24 01:48pm
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Location: DC...looking up from the gutters to the stars
Trooper TK12746 wrote:
I have provided evidence that the second lightsaber does exist. I have not claimed that the novelization proved that it was in the WIndu fight. I believe it would be in the Windu fight because there is no point in haveing a backup if it is unavailible should hte primary fail. I do think he had it in the WIndu fight, but I didn't say the novelization proves it. I provided quotes earlier from the novelization that stated the existence of the second lightsaber, it isn't mythical.


*ahem*

Quote:
Those are not facts, Palpatine had his lightsaber (holdout) in his robes and would have deflected any attempt by Mace Windu to stab him. And WIndu was at the point of exhaustion as well according to the novelization.

What I meant was, both sides supporting evidence is speculation and interpretation that is validified by further speculation.


Seriously you should've stopped backpedalling LONG ago.



MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!

Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2005-06-24 09:34pm
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Lex Animata
Lex Animata
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Location: Toronto, Ontario
That's it. Time for a show trial.



For a time, I considered sparing your wretched little planet Cybertron.
But now, you shall witnesss ... its dismemberment!

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