ROTS, specifics: Palpatine could beat Mace Windu (easely)?

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Post by Morilore »

Darth Wong wrote:You know, you can make all the efforts you want in order to show that Palpatine wanted to set up that general situation, but you will never prove that he planned it to turn out exactly the way it did. You will never prove it because it's utter bullshit. If Palpatine had such perfect precognition of every variable, he wouldn't have fucking died in ROTJ.
But he didn't need precognition to fix that battle, he just needed the ability to sense Anakin's presence approaching and throw the fight at the right moment. That doesn't necessarily mean he would have won the fight with Mace otherwise - he did seem to be backing up thoughout, and was about to be pushed to the wall.

And Palpatine didn't need perfect precognition of every variable to ensure that the general event occured the way he wanted it too. Palpatine's cunning was never about seeing the future, it was about being able to take advantage of what ended up happening. He sent Anakin off with the intention of turning Palpatine in to the Jedi. He must have known that they would be coming soon anyway, to request he lay down his emergency powers. All he needs to do is make sure he doesn't die. Consider alternative outcomes:

Anakin doesn't show up. Palpatine would continue his "plead for his life" act, and be put under arrest. From there you still would have the "Jedi taking over" aspect to work over Anakin with. The Senate would have a shitstorm (beloved leader betrayed by evil unelected Jedi!), and popular opinion would turn against the Jedi. Order 66 and Anakin's fall might come a few days later, but Palpatine would still come out on top. This one's hard to work with, but Palpatine is arrogant enough to consider it unlikely, while simultaneously smart enough to know what to do if it happens, unless he gets too mad and trys the zappy thing while he should be pleading for his life.

Or Anakin shows up with Mace to arrest the Chancellor. He'd have to be trickier here - can't go with "I AM THE SENATE" in that creepy voice of yours and expect to seduce this idealistic young man - but either he surrenders and goes the way he did above, or tries to manipulate the Jedi into fighting him under more ambiguous circumstances than the one surrounding the even that actually happened. There's risk here, but then there's risk everywhere.

More ideally, Palpatine beats Mace before Anakin shows up. From there he can make it look like he was beaten to within an inch of his life, and guess what? Same thing happens. This was probably what Palps was going for, being arrogant enough and all that to think he can dispose of Mace without too much problem.

One of the trickiest possibilities would be if Anakin showed up while Palpatine was in his psycho catbeast mode. But would Palpatine let that happen? Would he be able to sense Anakin coming in battle frenzy? I find it hard to believe that Palpatine would not pay all attention to Anakin, the very shatterpoint of his plot. At any rate even were that the case Palpatine would probably start to throw the fight right there. Anakin's stupid enough to forget that Palpy was a snarling man-beast when he entered if it ends up that the Evil Jedi is holding a saber over the wounded and deformed body of My Beloved Mentor.

Now, assuming for a second that Palpatine didn't thow that fight at all, he could either have been carted off and arrested, saved by Anakin, or killed, if he chose to make the grievous mistake of provoking Mace without his new apprentice to protect him. We'd have to get into his mind to figure that out, but I like to think he was smarter than that.

Of course, it could have ended right there, if Anakin didn't decide to stop Mace, but that confrontation was the crucial moment any way you look at it.
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Post by Trooper TK12746 »

And if Palpy didn't order the clone army, it shows that he used this completely unexpected event and made it part of the "ideal Jedi trap". That didn't involve precognition, just cunning and brilliance. Another example is how he recovered from the setback in TPM and used it to make his plan even better.

Palpatine hadn't really mentored Anakin on the Darkside though, he merely set Anakin up for a conversion to the Dark Side and to the Sith Order. He hadn't actually trained Anakin.

And Maul had his tendons severed in his leg, that is a serious injury. And in one book (the Personal Diary of Darth Maul, or something like that), Sidious comments at the end that he had told Maul over and over that an opponent wasn't beaten till he is dead. And what do you mean reacting in slow motion? He was cut in half right away. It was postmortem twitching.
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Post by Danny Bhoy »

Morilore wrote: Consider alternative outcomes:

Anakin doesn't show up. Palpatine would continue his "plead for his life" act, and be put under arrest. From there you still would have the "Jedi taking over" aspect to work over Anakin with. The Senate would have a shitstorm (beloved leader betrayed by evil unelected Jedi!), and popular opinion would turn against the Jedi. Order 66 and Anakin's fall might come a few days later, but Palpatine would still come out on top. This one's hard to work with, but Palpatine is arrogant enough to consider it unlikely, while simultaneously smart enough to know what to do if it happens, unless he gets too mad and trys the zappy thing while he should be pleading for his life.

Or Anakin shows up with Mace to arrest the Chancellor. He'd have to be trickier here - can't go with "I AM THE SENATE" in that creepy voice of yours and expect to seduce this idealistic young man - but either he surrenders and goes the way he did above, or tries to manipulate the Jedi into fighting him under more ambiguous circumstances than the one surrounding the even that actually happened. There's risk here, but then there's risk everywhere.

More ideally, Palpatine beats Mace before Anakin shows up. From there he can make it look like he was beaten to within an inch of his life, and guess what? Same thing happens. This was probably what Palps was going for, being arrogant enough and all that to think he can dispose of Mace without too much problem.

One of the trickiest possibilities would be if Anakin showed up while Palpatine was in his psycho catbeast mode. But would Palpatine let that happen? Would he be able to sense Anakin coming in battle frenzy? I find it hard to believe that Palpatine would not pay all attention to Anakin, the very shatterpoint of his plot. At any rate even were that the case Palpatine would probably start to throw the fight right there. Anakin's stupid enough to forget that Palpy was a snarling man-beast when he entered if it ends up that the Evil Jedi is holding a saber over the wounded and deformed body of My Beloved Mentor.
But so what if Anakin showed up if Augie was in his psycho catbest mode? Or if Augie used his "I am the Senate" voice in Anakin's presence. Anakin already knew that Augie was the evil Sith Lord. Augie's Catbeast mode would have not changed Anakin's perception of him, which to be honest, doesn't seem to be so much focused at this juncture on whether Augie was an evil raving loon or not, but rather that Augie might be the one to save Padme. Seems to me all that Augie needed to do, regardless of scenario, was to appeal to Anakin's fear of losing Padme. If he managed to do so, it wouldn't matter if Augie was Hannibal Lecter or Florence Nightingale.

Actually if I remembered correctly, Augie threw the Force Lightning at Windu after Anakin arrived. A strange act to me especially with regards to the notion that Augie was throwing the duel as it indicated that Augie was hardly defenceless, especially to someone like Anakin who had been clobbered by Force Lightning.
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Post by Ford Prefect »

There's a lot of arguments behind this: people say that Palpy could have dusted Windu with ease. Yet he didn't? Why? Probably because he couldn't. For a person with supposed control over the fight, he did not look like a man in control, and I know a bit about yon flash of the blade.

If Palpy was as good as people are saying, not only could he have killed Mace dead with sickening ease, he could have also managed to manipulate it around so he still can out on. But he didn't.

You have two options: One, Mace had the up on Palps, but Palp still managed to make good on it, or that he carefully controlled the fight against an extremely powerful foe, so that he lost his saber and fell down at Windu's mercy at the exact right moment that his prospective apprentice entered?

Which sounds more plausible to you?
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Post by General Brock »

Ford Prefect wrote:There's a lot of arguments behind this: people say that Palpy could have dusted Windu with ease. Yet he didn't? Why? Probably because he couldn't. For a person with supposed control over the fight, he did not look like a man in control, and I know a bit about yon flash of the blade.

If Palpy was as good as people are saying, not only could he have killed Mace dead with sickening ease, he could have also managed to manipulate it around so he still can out on. But he didn't.

You have two options: One, Mace had the up on Palps, but Palp still managed to make good on it, or that he carefully controlled the fight against an extremely powerful foe, so that he lost his saber and fell down at Windu's mercy at the exact right moment that his prospective apprentice entered?

Which sounds more plausible to you?
I would say Palpatine figured he could control the fight, through a combination of his own precog and skill, but in reality, not as well as he thought he could. The point was not to kill Mace Windu, but to secure the loyalty of the Chosen One. As for plausability, well, there is the Force Fixit.

Without more canon evidence, a lot is speculation, but the relative ease with which he killed the first three Jedi, the transition from effective thrusting to less efficient slashing techniques against Windu, the smirky begging for his life, and the "Unlimited power" gloat as he finished off an injured Mace Windu, kind of leads me to believe Palpatine played with the Jedi Master, and was a stronger force user, but an inferior lightsaber duellist. Since his disfigurement could not have been intentional, he obviously underestimated Windu and got burned when he used force lightning, which seems to be his trump card. (Even in the duel with Yoda, he defaulted to force lightning the first chance he got, with Yoda pressing him, causing Yoda to lose his own lightsaber to counter it. Interesting that Yoda did not deflect it with the lightsaber, as Mace had, and in fact lost his lightsaber, which ATOC indicated to be a major no-no for any Jedi).

Palpatine seems to have forseen a high probability that Anakin would intervene in some way with his arrest. The promise of Darth Plageus' knowledge, doubts about Jedi integrity, and the disturbance in the force from the duel gave him every reason to expect Anakin would be there for his arrest, to make sure he wasn't harmed.

Sidious recovered quickly after the fight, and was right back to plotting and manipulating after Mace Windu's death. He was even still fresh enough to take on Yoda, which indicates his force powers were quicker, and stronger, if not necessarily more powerful than Yoda. Yoda was a more powerful Jedi than Mace, and could not defeat Darth Sidious with either lightsaber or force powers, at least not in a reasonable amount of time to prevent Sidious/Palpatine from receiving more conventional reinforcements. Yoda decided to go into exile, when a speedy assassination of Palpatine was no longer possible.

If Yoda had more time, he could out-endure a lone Sidious and win a fight of attrition, but not take on Sidious and Coruscant authorities, who were legally bound to obey Chancellor Palpatine, and the clonetrooper garrison there. Mace Windu was less likely to win against a Darth Sidious not holding back and waiting for Anakin.

It will be interesting to see how Lucas and his actors respond to this question, which is sure to be a hot convention topic.
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Post by Trooper TK12746 »

Palpatine had a holdout lightsaber anyway, so he could have easily stabbed Mace Windu. And Palpatine isn't stupid, if the force lightning had really been hurting him he would have stopped. Not continue with greater intensity.
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Post by Lex »

Trooper TK12746 wrote:Vader didn't stumble over his own arrogance, Maul just didn't learn properly, and Dooku was already arrogant. And Dooku pretended to be Si Fodias and ordered the clone army as-per Palpatine's instructions.
On a further note.... Vader did NOT(??) stumble over his own arrogance?
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Post by corsair »

Darth Wong wrote:You know, you can make all the efforts you want in order to show that Palpatine wanted to set up that general situation, but you will never prove that he planned it to turn out exactly the way it did. You will never prove it because it's utter bullshit. If Palpatine had such perfect precognition of every variable, he wouldn't have fucking died in ROTJ.

Now where is your evidence? All the previous points are just bullshit?

So your "evidence" is this:

Palp tells Anakin he's sith and moments later three Jedis including Mace turns up in his office catching Palpatine COMPLETELY by surprise. Even though he had been scheming against the Jedi for decades (and centuries if you include Sith history) he never saw THIS comming. He thought all they wanted was to discuss politics.

Even if he imagined this visit, he completely miscalculated the battleskill of Mace Windu. Even though he had studied the Jedi for long, especially the top ones. But no troopers or ambushes or traps seemed necesarry...

Through luck he still managed to hold out for a while until, alas, he lost his saber. Not drawing his other one he prefered to hold back Mace with lighting. In this way, totally exhausting himself and bringing the thousand-year sith-order very close to a halt.

Luckily even still, Anakin turns up. Pheew! And, surprise, Anakin is on the brink of turning to the dark side just in time to save Palpatine! Must have been just his day after all...


And all this, mr. Wong, is just bullshit? Is that the evidence for the Mace-supremacy?

I fail to see the relevance. By all acounts Palpatine is superior to Mace and nothing in this thread has cast an inkling of doubt on this matter (but there have been some smoke)
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Post by Manus Celer Dei »

Evidence for Mace-supremecy? How about him beating Palps?
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Post by FTeik »

But this is the entire point:

Palpatine had to (appear to) lose this battle to force Anakin to make a decision and side with him.

So we have three/four possibilities:

1) Sidious sets the duel up and faked defeat in both regards (lightsaber and forcepowers), while he could have defeated Mace Windu in both, if he wanted. Palpatine owns.

2) Sidious sets the duel up, was bested with the lightsaber and faked defeat when it came to forcepowers. Palpatine still owns, just not when fighting Mace Windu with a lightsaber.

3) Sidious sets the duel up, certain to be able to defeat the Jedi including Mace Windu, but overestimated the abilities of himself or underestimated the abilities of Mace. In that case it would have been the end of the Sith-Order, if not for Anakin intervening.

4) Sidious sets the duel up, knows he has to lose to appear weak/helpless to Anakin and doesn't even try his best. No wonder Mace is able to kick the lightsaber away.
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Post by Omega-13 »

Watching Palpatine and Mace and then Palpatine and Yoda is like watching Vader vs luke in ESB and vader vs luke in ROTJ, not even in the same league,


the fight vs yoda was fierce, full of hate and anger, they wanted to kill each other, that wasn't the same as when he fought mace, not even close,

sidious needed anakin to turn, and needed something to do it, anakin was going to help mace, so if sidious killed mace before anakin got there, then what?

Now u got anakin still on the lightside, and nothing to turn him yet, how obvious is it that it was a trap, they confronted him, he killed 3 of them fast, kept the 4th as a slow long death, plainly obvious
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Post by Darth Wong »

Well, it must be true, because Omega-13 says so. He doesn't bother providing any evidence to support his claim, but he SAYS IT'S OBVIOUS. What more could we possibly need? :roll:
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Post by Omega-13 »

just watched the fights again, you know its amazing, sidious never loses a sabre confrontation to yoda infact he BEATS yoda with the sabre, as the scene cuts as they fight on the floating platform, they are giong toe to toe, but when the scene comes back to them, yoda is a hundred feet below him trying to dodge pods......so yoda was bested on the pod and was trying to get back up there or just survive....

yet mace managed to kick palpatines sabre out of his hand in a fight that is plainly toned down? c'mon
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Post by Omega-13 »

Darth Wong wrote:Well, it must be true, because Omega-13 says so. He doesn't bother providing any evidence to support his claim, but he SAYS IT'S OBVIOUS. What more could we possibly need? :roll:
open your eyes, you don't need to suspend disbelief to realize that the fight is toned down compared to yoda vs mace,
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Post by DPDarkPrimus »

The holdout saber that Sideous has is the one that he pulls out at the beginning of the fight. Why people are skimming over this fact, and acting like he had a second one (when there is no[?] evidence of this) is beyond me.
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Post by The Grim Squeaker »

Mace was a better fighter than Yoda, but Yoda was tronger in he force.
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Post by Morilore »

General Brock wrote:Since his disfigurement could not have been intentional,
Why not? It got him sympathy points.
Omega-13 wrote:sidious needed anakin to turn, and needed something to do it, anakin was going to help mace, so if sidious killed mace before anakin got there, then what?
Then Palpatine can make it look like he was beaten to a pulp and nearly killed, and he would have more control of the circumstances under which Anakin makes his decision. Much more ideal for him than what actually happened.
the .303 bookworm wrote:Mace was a better fighter than Yoda, but Yoda was tronger in he force.
Wonder what matters more in pitched battle?
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Post by Darth Wong »

Omega-13 wrote:yet mace managed to kick palpatines sabre out of his hand in a fight that is plainly toned down? c'mon
Provide an objective definition of "toned down", moron. Because from where I sit, this looks like more of you using your "because I say so" method of proof.
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Post by The Grim Squeaker »

Morilore wrote:
General Brock wrote:Since his disfigurement could not have been intentional,
the .303 bookworm wrote:Mace was a better fighter than Yoda, but Yoda was tronger in he force.
Wonder what matters more in pitched battle?
Lightsaber skills, Mace was able to hold his own against Palpatine's lightning with his saber,without it (although he was in shock) he got fried.
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Post by corsair »

Dear MR. WONG
Darth Wong wrote: ..., moron. Because from where I sit, this looks like more of you using your "because I say so" method of proof.

But Mr. Wong all the supporters of Mace Windu, especially you, only use "because I say so"-proofs!

Look back at the thread. I, among others, have stated several claims that all pro-Windu do not dare to counter in any way. You stick to calling us morons and our arguments bullshit. Why? We are the only ones arguing here, instead of yelling.

Respond with something palpable or the matter is closed with the result:

"PALPATINE WINS!"
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Post by Mr Flibble »

corsair wrote: But Mr. Wong all the supporters of Mace Windu, especially you, only use "because I say so"-proofs!

Look back at the thread. I, among others, have stated several claims that all pro-Windu do not dare to counter in any way. You stick to calling us morons and our arguments bullshit. Why? We are the only ones arguing here, instead of yelling.

Respond with something palpable or the matter is closed with the result:

"PALPATINE WINS!"
No Mace supporters observe that Mace was beating sidious, and had him disarmed, until Anakin showed up and ruined things, and then concluded that Mace could defeat Sidious, without adding in the extra "he must have been letting him win, because I can't accept anyone could possibly be able to beat palpatine *fap* *fap* *fap*"
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Post by Darth Wong »

corsair wrote:Dear MR. WONG
Darth Wong wrote: ..., moron. Because from where I sit, this looks like more of you using your "because I say so" method of proof.
But Mr. Wong all the supporters of Mace Windu, especially you, only use "because I say so"-proofs!
No, you fucking idiot. The proof is that MACE WINDU DEFEATED PALPATINE. If you're going to say that it was all a fake, the burden of proof is on you.
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Post by Trooper TK12746 »

According to the novilization, Palpy had two lightsabers, one was his regular lightsaber which he lost in the fight with Mace Windu, the second was the holdout liightsaber he used against yoda (it came out of his sleeve). He still could have stabbed Mace Windu instead of frying himself. And I think given that master Yoda was considered the ultimaite Jedi, that fact that he got whooped by Palpatine indicates that Palpatine threw the fight to Windu. In the Novelization if states "..Palpatine trusts Anakin." He knew Anakin would prevent him from dying. Palpatine also says "...you think its my fear you feel, you fool?" He wasn't just beaten.
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Post by Omega-13 »

If palpatine had a second lightsabre in his cloak and didn't use it instantly when the first one was knocked out, its obvious he needed that scenario to turn anakin, otherwise he would have just whipped out the second and started going at it again.
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Post by Danny Bhoy »

Trooper TK12746 wrote:According to the novilization, Palpy had two lightsabers, one was his regular lightsaber which he lost in the fight with Mace Windu, the second was the holdout liightsaber he used against yoda (it came out of his sleeve). He still could have stabbed Mace Windu instead of frying himself. And I think given that master Yoda was considered the ultimaite Jedi, that fact that he got whooped by Palpatine indicates that Palpatine threw the fight to Windu. In the Novelization if states "..Palpatine trusts Anakin." He knew Anakin would prevent him from dying. Palpatine also says "...you think its my fear you feel, you fool?" He wasn't just beaten.
Slight digression.

Adherents of the Palpatine-threw-the-Mace-duel theory often point to the "fact" that he "whooped" Yoda as evidence that Augie did in fact sucker Mace.

Yet, I find the Palpatine-whoooped-Yoda theory even more far fetched. If it had been a boxing match, I'd say at best Augie won on points rather than by clear KO. Hardly a pwning any more than what the RN received from the HSF at Jutland. Yes, while Yoda in the novelisation might have realised that he hadn't had what it took to defeat Augie, it doesn't automatically translate into a tactical defeat for Yoda (but certainly does imply a strategic defeat.)

The ones that clearly got whooped by Augie were Kit, Saessa and Agen.
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