Split from ROTS Revelations

[brianeyci]

Just some quick points (I thought of creating a new thread but they are just small points).

• We learn that darkside telekenesis is superior to lightside. Yoda has to focus and rotate a single senate pod, while Palpatine has no trouble throwing three at once IIRC.
• With Mace and Palpatine fighting, we get an explaination why ANH between Vader and Obi-Wan doesn't have all the backflips and acrobatics. Although Yoda looks cool doing all those backflips, he loses. Mace won. So Obi-Wan and Vader aren't necessarily less powerful in ANH, but probably adopted a more conservative fighting style. Yoda fighting style seems to be a weakness anyway -- Yoda is short and needs to do those backflips to get reach.
• "Order 66" seemed to me a stupid way to kill all the Jedi at first. Why wasn't there more preparation? For example, they could have had override codes on speeder bikes to self-destruct them, or explosives planted in the tree Yoda was at. Even a nitwit could have planned the culling better than it looked on screen. Until I realized that the Jedi precog meant early preparations to kill the Jedi risked discovery. "Order 66" was all the preparation that was needed, and even with this Mace could sense "a plot to destroy the Jedi". Any more preparation than a seemingly benign order to execute traitors could have set off Jedi sixth senses from Coruscant to the Outer Rim.
• Only Yoda did what he was supposed to do -- lead rather than fight. The other Jedi Masters that we saw on screen, rather than sit back and let the clonetroopers do the dirty work, tried to play hero. They paid for it with their lives. Sure, a Jedi is powerful and could deflect a lot of blaster shots fighting in the front. However, Jedi as we see are very mortal. The result is that Yoda was in a tree overlooking the battle, while the other "Masters" were in the front surrounded by clonetroopers.
• "Killed not by clones, but by lightsaber". It looks like the Jedi had started teaching the rudimentary idea of a "blaster deflection squad" to the younglings. Since Yoda is responsible for teaching, it is probable that he taught the younglings to stay and fight together. The kids were keeping together and fighting their way through the temple to escape probably. If Vader hadn't showed up, a few might had escaped. So the lessons of Geneosis were being taught at least to the new generation of Jedi.
• A few months ago, I suggested that certain force feats required a somatic component, or "moving the hand". Several prominent board members reacted negatively against this. The two points brought out was that "Jedi could have been showing off" and "Vader choked Ozzel". However with ROTS, it is hard to argue that Jedi are merely showing off when they move their hand to use telekenesis. Was Yoda showing off when he was moving his hands, in a fight with Palpatine to the death? Were Vader and Obi-Wan showing off? Besides, Vader only appeared not to move his hand when choking Ozzel. For all we know, his fingers were moving.
• Bali and Padme were in the Galactic Senate chamber when Palpatine announced the creation of the Empire. They were less than enthusiastic. So the idea that Palpatine used some form of "mind control" doesn't make sense. Why not mind control your most formidable opponent (since Bali was mentioned as being runner up to Chancellor?) So when Dooku said "Sidious is influencing hundreds of Senators" in ATOC, it doesn't necessarily mean he was using the force. Similarly when Windu says "he has control of the Senate and the Courts", it doesn't have to mean that Palpatine is using the force either. Besides, we know that mind trick affects "weak minds" only, at least the lightside version of it.

<edit>One more thing -- Since Yoda didn't use the Force to jump up as he was about to fall while clinging with a fingernail, it looks like using Force Jump requires that you be standing on something (unless you believe Yoda's force had been entirely depleted by that point, but Yoda survives the fall which obviously required force).</edit>

Brian

[Glimmervoid]

[*]A few months ago, I suggested that certain force feats required a somatic component, or "moving the hand". Several prominent board members reacted negatively against this. The two points brought out was that "Jedi could have been showing off" and "Vader choked Ozzel". However with ROTS, it is hard to argue that Jedi are merely showing off when they move their hand to use telekenesis. Was Yoda showing off when he was moving his hands, in a fight with Palpatine to the death? Were Vader and Obi-Wan showing off? Besides, Vader only appeared not to move his hand when choking Ozzel. For all we know, his fingers were moving.

I think the best way to explain this would be the way it is explained in TWOT (the wheel of time). In this series when changing the one power to make a fireball the I-se-di(sp) need to move there hand in a throwing motion but the wise once do not. We are told this is because that is the way they learned to do it and it had become part of the act. The actions have become link mentally for them.

[brianeyci]

We are told this is because that is the way they learned to do it and it had become part of the act. The actions have become link mentally for them.

By moving your hand, you are giving a visual cue that you are about to use the Force. Yoda was on the ground and trying to trick Palpatine to lower his guard. If Yoda could have used the Force without moving his hand, he probably would have.

Brian

[Glimmervoid]

We are told this is because that is the way they learned to do it and it had become part of the act. The actions have become link mentally for them.

By moving your hand, you are giving a visual cue that you are about to use the Force. Yoda was on the ground and trying to trick Palpatine to lower his guard. If Yoda could have used the Force without moving his hand, he probably would have.

Brian

That’s right he could not because the two things were linked mentally. I was trying to give an explanation as to why an action would be required in what is a mental act. Vadar was not moving anything at the end of ROTS when he shook the room.

[Isolder74]

lets see


A Venator has a heavy turbolaser in its hanger bay capable of shooting a Sepratists ship in half. Its a good bet that an ISD has one.

Travel times are set a bit more in stone. Obi Wan comes to talk to her mid-day they leave for Mustafar by evening. She arrive just after he finishes with the Sepretist leaders.

[Illuminatus Primus]

A Venator has a heavy turbolaser in its hanger bay capable of shooting a Sepratists ship in half. Its a good bet that an ISD has one.

How does that follow? We've seen dead into an ISD's bay; there's no heavy turbolaser.

[Durandal]

Did anyone else happen to see the cannons on the Venator Star Destroyer ejecting shell after firing a round, or was that just me?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Did anyone else happen to see the cannons on the Venator Star Destroyer ejecting shell after firing a round, or was that just me?

It was the Invisible Hand. Those cannons are identified as proton torpedo tubes on the ROTS ICS; those ejected shells must be the "firing cylinders" for the torpedo identified in the SW ICS in reference to the X-Wing's torpedoes.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

There are already clones of a different template in use. A non-Jango clonetrooper was seen with mask off on Utapau with Cody and Obi-Wan.

[Illuminatus Primus]

There are already clones of a different template in use. A non-Jango clonetrooper was seen with mask off on Utapau with Cody and Obi-Wan.

When?

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

When?

I think it was right before Cody received Order 66. I saw the movie last Saturday, though, so it's very fuzzy right now.

[Col. Crackpot]

As shown by Vader's need for a mask and resperator, Bacta either cannot heal as well as we were led to believe, or is not yet available.

[Kurgan]

Just some quick points (I thought of creating a new thread but they are just small points).

• We learn that darkside telekenesis is superior to lightside. Yoda has to focus and rotate a single senate pod, while Palpatine has no trouble throwing three at once IIRC.

I know what you're saying, but that only shows that Palpatine is more powerful in that area than Yoda. But as the most powerful representatives of their force affiliations, that's what we know so far.

[*]With Mace and Palpatine fighting, we get an explaination why ANH between Vader and Obi-Wan doesn't have all the backflips and acrobatics. Although Yoda looks cool doing all those backflips, he loses. Mace won.

Another point to consider... when Obi-Wan and Anakin duel their fight, while fast keeps them standing or walking much of the time (moreso than many prequel era fights), interestingly enough. When Anakin does do a big flip, he gets three limbs cut off at once! The AOTC novel talks about the "force wall" trick, perhaps this is more evidence of it.

So Obi-Wan and Vader aren't necessarily less powerful in ANH, but probably adopted a more conservative fighting style. Yoda fighting style seems to be a weakness anyway -- Yoda is short and needs to do those backflips to get reach.

Lucas specifically called the ANH battle a "hard fight" (on the ANH DVD commentary) for an older man and a crippled old man. It could also be a more careful fight after so many years and so much more to lose. Perhaps...

[*]A few months ago, I suggested that certain force feats required a somatic component, or "moving the hand". Several prominent board members reacted negatively against this. The two points brought out was that "Jedi could have been showing off" and "Vader choked Ozzel". However with ROTS, it is hard to argue that Jedi are merely showing off when they move their hand to use telekenesis. Was Yoda showing off when he was moving his hands, in a fight with Palpatine to the death? Were Vader and Obi-Wan showing off? Besides, Vader only appeared not to move his hand when choking Ozzel. For all we know, his fingers were moving.

Another example would be Vader's fight with Luke on Bespin. Sure he moved his hands during SOME of debris being tossed (or ripped from the walls first) but not all. Could be editing, or could be that not every force power requires a hand movement. Perhaps it has something to do with increasing focus. In the Clone Wars cartoon Anakin moves his robot stump (after his arm is damaged) and channels the force through it just the same. But that's the cartoon, not the movie, so there you go. In CW, the hand gestures are almost pantamime of what they want to happen.

<edit>One more thing -- Since Yoda didn't use the Force to jump up as he was about to fall while clinging with a fingernail, it looks like using Force Jump requires that you be standing on something (unless you believe Yoda's force had been entirely depleted by that point, but Yoda survives the fall which obviously required force).</edit>

This part isn't true, because remember in TPM Obi-Wan was able to Force leap up from hanging on that metal protrusion by his hands in the shaft. Maybe it wasn't "Force Power Jump" but it certainly was a telekinesis spring that moved his body up and over, and without anything under his feet. And Yoda is clearly more powerful than Obi-Wan as a Padawan. So why didn't he do it? I don't know, but that doesn't seem the likely reason.

A lot of Force quirks could possibly be chalked up to Palpatine's "dampening field" theory (the "shroud of the dark side" could be more than just clouding the Jedi's perceptions of the future and Palpatine's true identity as a Sith Lord). But I know that's harder to prove from onscreen evidence...

We finally see what would happen if a Lightsaber impacts Stormtrooper Armor. Pretty much the same as any other material the Jedi routinely slice through...

Other things to consider:

R2D2 spraying "oil" on two Super Battle Droids, causing them to slip and wallow in the puddle, then igniting his thrust jets, causing them to burn and not get up.

Anakin's Scar. Can't they fix a simple scar with plastic surgery? I know they have Luke's face reconstructed in a deleted scene in ESB (to explain real life Mark Hamill's accident and reconstruction), so the tech exists 23-24 years later in the hands of a band of Rebels. Or is Anakin just too proud? Jedi healing techniques not strong enough?


Hyperspace Rings are still in use as of ROTS. They seem to have more "engines" on them, but they're still being used on the Jedi fighters.

[Jay]

'd say there was an Imperial Academy of some sort in place, seeing as to how there were already officers manning the bridge of the Venerators. Unless, they were drafted from the militaries of the indivdual planets. But, that seems unlikely given to how they were all in uniform flying under the one flag.

I think we see something of it in TPM. The ship that carries Qui Gon and Obi Wan to the Trade Federation vessel. They were a republic courier ship of some description, transporting passengers for the Senate. I doubt that the Supreme chancellor sends his ambassadors through public transport. obviously, when society is rejigged this people become imperial starpilots rather than republic...

[el blanco]

'd say there was an Imperial Academy of some sort in place, seeing as to how there were already officers manning the bridge of the Venerators. Unless, they were drafted from the militaries of the indivdual planets. But, that seems unlikely given to how they were all in uniform flying under the one flag.

I think we see something of it in TPM. The ship that carries Qui Gon and Obi Wan to the Trade Federation vessel. They were a republic courier ship of some description, transporting passengers for the Senate. I doubt that the Supreme chancellor sends his ambassadors through public transport. obviously, when society is rejigged this people become imperial starpilots rather than republic...

Entirely possible, but I'd say they are more of a chauffer group than a military force. Possibly part of the Chanceleor's personal security force, but I don't think they were anything on the level of a military navy.



It also surprises me that the member worlds of the Republic didn't seem to be contributing to the war. The UN calls on its members to contribute forces for its actions. The Republic was perfectly comfortable simply relying on this clone army that appeared out of nowhere.

[Firefox]

I thought that not periodically wiping a droid's memory would result in personality idiosyncrasies.

Some mention of Vader's injuries may be useful, but Saxton's already covered it on his site.

I don't know how significant it is, but the discrepancy in Tantive IV's appearance between RotS and ANH could be mentioned, as well as the fact that the DS framework seen at the end doesn't match either battlestation seen in subsequent films, implying a prototype or a Separatist work-in-progress.

[Imperial Overlord]

My bad. I somehow failed to put the "not" in the sentence.

[Jay]

Entirely possible, but I'd say they are more of a chauffer group than a military force. Possibly part of the Chanceleor's personal security force, but I don't think they were anything on the level of a military navy.

That was my point, mostly. Military or not; had those two republic pilots survived TPM, it'd be my guess that they'd be on board an ISD somewhere, hunting down rebel scum - crapping themselves everythime Vadar walked by. Some sort of Republic star service, whatever its form, predated the empire.


*edited to actually form setences*

[Cykeisme]

When?

I think it was right before Cody received Order 66. I saw the movie last Saturday, though, so it's very fuzzy right now.

So you aren't sure.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

When?

I think it was right before Cody received Order 66. I saw the movie last Saturday, though, so it's very fuzzy right now.

So you aren't sure.

Okay, one of my friends just said that he saw the clone right before Order 66, and he sounded sure of himself.

[Stark]

Padme's Death

It's worth remembering that as he lay burned and dying on the operating table, Anakin was reaching out with the force: he could 'feel' that Padme was still alive. Who knows what else he was doing in there?

[Joe]

Vader's injuries: Vader's cybernetic cervical vertibrae were implanted at some unknown time after his injuries in Revenge of the Sith.

Is there something in RoTS to suggest that they couldn't have been implanted then?

[Ravengrim]

Vader's injuries: Vader's cybernetic cervical vertibrae were implanted at some unknown time after his injuries in Revenge of the Sith.

Is there something in RoTS to suggest that they couldn't have been implanted then?

He was able to drag his way up the slope a ways with his remaining arm, and he was still moving a bit during the 'upgrade'. A break at the 3rd cervical vertabrae would have rendered him a quadraplegic. Since there are (presumably) still some Jedi left in some remote areas, there may have been a few that were able to give him some other significant injuries while hunting them down. I, of course, have zero evidence for this. Just a guess.

[Iceberg]

"I remember very early on asking who my parents were and being told that my father and Obi Wan met Vader on the edge of a volcano and they had a duel. My father and Darth Vader fell into the crater and my father was instantly killed. Vader crawled out horribly scarred, and at that point the Emperor landed and Obi Wan ran into the forest, never to be seen again." - Mark Hamill, Starlog, 1980

Amazing how accurate this is to the 2005 version of events, minus some of the more fanciful imagery and the obvious inaccuracy of Vader and Anakin being separate people.

[Col. Crackpot]

Oh and the fact that there are multiple troop and vehicle varients for various environments.

And hyperspace is just that fucking fast.

shit yeah! Padme made the trip to Mustafor in what? minutes? fucking amazing.