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Illuminatus Primus
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Vader's injuries: Vader's cybernetic cervical vertibrae were implanted at some unknown time after his injuries in Revenge of the Sith.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Joe wrote:Padme's Death

Much has been made of Padme's seemingly unnatural death at the end of the film. The medical droid said that she had apparently lost her will to live, but it's clearly implied that he couldn't explain why and we are left with an unsatisfying answer. It is arguable whether this explanation is consistent with Padme's character; on one hand, she appeared to be fairly excited about being a mother and having children of her own. On the other hand, it is heavily implied in Episode II that Padme had been a very lonely person before Anakin began putting the moves on her; this would explain why she so easily fell for Anakin, despite the awkward nature of his courtship, and also despite his massacre of the Tusken Raiders; what kind of a woman would just let something that horrible slide by? It is entirely possible that she had indeed lost her will to continue living, since she had lost the one thing that had filled the void in her empty life and the last thing she would have remembered about him would have been his attempt to choke her to death.

Another theory, a theory I think which is more satisfying in the context of the storyline and the tragic nature of Anakin's character, is that Palpatine was not lying when he told Darth Vader that he had killed Padme through his anger; somehow, as he laid on the operating table, getting suited up for the first time, his anger, rage, and feelings of abandonment reached out through the Force (subconsciously) and drained away Padme's will to live as she laid on the operating table, giving birth to the Skywalker twins. The movie is edited to where Anakin is operated on as Padme gives birth; it may have been done this way to imply that Padme's death was connected to Anakin becoming Vader and falling even more deeply into the grip of the Dark Side. Anakin's character is clearly meant to be evocative of the various Greek tragic figures; Padme's death at his hands through the Dark Side of the Force would be consistent with his character, viewed in that light. He embraces the Dark Side to save her from her fate, but like a Greek hero desperately trying to evade his foreseen destiny, his attempts to escape fate only end up ensuring that the aforementioned fate will come to pass.

It has been suggested that Palpatine was simply lying to Anakin, but it must not be forgotten that Palpatine had previously demonstrated great insight into Anakin's mind. He knew that the Jedi had asked him to spy on the Senate, he knew that he was married, and he knew he had been having dreams of Padme's death. Furthermore, it must be noted that Sith have a unique talent for using the truth deceitfully. How did Count Dooku attempt to sway Obi-Wan in Episode II? By telling him the truth about the Sith...without telling him the full story. How did Palpatine get the Senate to support the Jedi purge? By telling them that the Jedi had staged a coup of the government, which they had actually done...but again, without telling them the full story. And how did Palpatine explain Padme's death to Vader to drive him even further down the dark path and make him even more vengeful and hateful? You get the idea. Again, Palpatine is using the truth deceitfully; Vader clearly believes that it was his force choke that accidentally killed her, but the way he actually killed her is far more sinister - how would Vader have viewed the Dark Side if he had known that he had subconsciously killed the love of his life through it? Palpatine is a lying, evil, twisted SOB - but it is through truth that he is able to accomplish his greatest victories. So what Palpatine tells Vader as he takes his first steps in the suit is not a lie, but a very literal truth.
I completely endorse and second this in every respect, and in fact unless Joe is precognitive, he probably read the log of an AIM conversation I made available on another board in which I basically asserted all of this.
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Post by Joe »

Yeah, I did. You obviously deserve credit, so if you do decide to use this Mike, Marina should get credit also.
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Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

I would request or recommend some form of comment on Palpatine's disquise being destroyed by the redirected Force lightning, rather than it being an injury.
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Post by Vympel »

4. Kashyyk is one damn valuable piece of real estate since the top Jedi was willing to leave the capital to ensure its defense even as things are really starting to come to a head in the Capital and that he was not immediately called back from when the Chancelor was confirmed named a Sith. Given the travel times it would have been trivial to wait the extra hour or 2 for Yoda to return.

That, or Mace didn’t feel he needed him or had to move right then and there and didn’t want to risk any advanced warning.
This was done on purpose by the Jedi to make the Sith Lord reveal himself when Grievous was found and destroyed- they thought if both Yoda and Mace were on Coruscant, he would lay low.
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Post by Publius »

Some observations:

* A modified R2 model astromech can hack into a warship's control system and take control of its turbolift system at least. This same R2 later demonstrated broadly comparable abilities at hacking ("slicing," to use the Star Wars terminology) aboard the Empire's first Death Star.

* Supreme Chancellor Palpatine has the backing of a substantial majority of the Senate, but not all of it. Although he is able to push through legislation continuing the war, granting himself further extraordinary powers, and even ratifying his assumption of imperial dignity, he does not control the entire Senate. Palpatine's act of imperial assumption met with little opposition from the Senate.

* Warships have automatic hatches that seal their hangars in the event of a containment shield failure, as well as automatically sealing portholes.

* Although the Jedi were uncomfortable with the Supreme Chancellor's politics – especially his special dispensation to remain in office and his grants of emergency powers – and were even becoming aware that the dark side surrounded him, they remained unaware that he was in fact a Sith Lord.

* The Emperor's psychic connection with Darth Vader is strong enough that he can sense from Coruscant when the latter is in danger on a planet in the Outer Rim.

* Master Yoda can feel the deaths of individual Jedi across light years. Given that the number of Jedi killed cannot be remotely comparable to the number of people killed on Alderaan, this clearly indicates that Force-guided clairvoyance is multifaceted. Given that the Emperor was able to feel Vader's peril in particular from across the galaxy, it is possible that this clairvoyance is based on familiarity or emotional closeness to the individual, or to the sensitivity and skill of the clairvoyant, as well as magnitude or theological importance.

* Alternatively, given that the Emperor could feel Vader from across the galaxy, it is also clear that clairvoyance, like prescience, is not absolute, as the Emperor did not feel Luke's presence at Endor at all, despite having foreseen that he would in fact come.

* Like Master Yoda, the Emperor is not as frail and weak as he seems.

* Many Jedi seem to need physical gestures as a concentration aid or focusing tool in order to manifest psychokinesis; both Yoda and the Emperor do so in the well of the Senate, and both Vader and Kenobi do it on Mustafar, despite being in pitched battles at the time.

* Republican Government astrographic records are quite good, as Senator Amidala is able to locate and travel to the Mustafar based solely on the fact that Vader mentioned the planet's name to her. Similarly, Senator Amidala's privately owned starship is able to travel to Mustafar from Coruscant in what cannot possibly have been more than a matter of hours (the Emperor's shuttle duplicates this feat in what must surely be even less time).

* A Force adept is able to survive severe mutilation trauma and extensive, severe third-degree burns, seemingly without going into shock.

* Given Palpatine's personal popularity, the Jedi may have inadvertently contributed to their own demise as a respected cult when they undertook a coup against him; given this ammunition, it is quite probable that the Jedi cult was thoroughly discredited and plunged into disrepute by Imperial propagandists, playing on fears of return of theocratic exclusivity and Separatist anarchy. This may help to explain why a Jedi was easily identified by a slave on a backwater world in The Phantom Menace, but a starry-eyed freeman on the same world had never even heard of the Force in A New Hope.

* The lack of malice in a clonetrooper's psyche as he responds to a deeply indoctrinated order may make it difficult for Jedi to sense their intent to kill.

As regards the objection that Vader could not possibly have shared some subconscious psychic connection with Amidala without Yoda and Obi-Wan feeling it: It should be noted that no one is infallible in the use of the Force. The entire Jedi High Council was unable to feel Darth Sidious despite countless occasions of meeting with him and speaking to him face to face (to say nothing of Sidious's "shroud of the dark side" which appears to have smothered the Jedi's powers). The Emperor seemed surprised that Yoda had not been killed, while Yoda and Kenobi were unable to say if any other Jedi had survived (despite the fact that Yoda could feel other Jedi's deaths on Kashyyyk). The Emperor could not feel Luke's presence on the Sanctuary Moon even though he had foreseen that he would come, yet he was able to feel Vader's danger from across the galaxy. Any number of Jedi did not sense the imminent betrayal of the clone troopers, possibly because of a lack of malice on their part. The fact that a Force adept did not sense something is not hard and fast evidence that it was not there (nor, however, does this necessarily mean that it was).
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Post by Lord Poe »

I have to point out that Vader does not need to gesture with his hands to use the Force. He didn't when choking Ozzel, and he didn't when ripping machinery off the walls in Cloud City to hurl at Luke.

From ROTS, we know:

Qui-Gon teaches the technique of being immortal through the Force.

While we know the Organas wanted to adopt a girl, there's no indication whether or not Leia had a stepbrother.

The Blockade Runner in ROTS was NOT the T4 from ANH.

The DS prototype at the end of ROTS was NOT the completed DS in ANH.

Padme was buried "pregnant".

Luke and Leia have family on Naboo. Padme's family may not have known that she delivered her child. (Which could explain why no one from Naboo has ever contacted Luke and Leia)

Obi-Wan was a "Master" with a seat on the Jedi Council. The age-old argument labeling him simply a "Knight" is now buried.

Obi-Wan learns to hate Anakin at the end. Obi-Wan calling Anakin "Darth" in ANH is now something of a taunt.

Palpatine blames his transformation on a deformity courtesy of the Jedi, and the public at large isn't aware he's a Sith lord.

Venator ISDs have ISD2-style bridges

Vader doesn't appear to have the massive scar on the left side of his scalp that reaches behind his head in ROTS. This scar must have been delivered to Vader in a later near-death fight.

It takes a while for Vader to get used to walking on his new prosthetic legs.

Vader's eyepieces open and close inside the mask. He may be able to look through the mask unaided at times, but often uses the input from the built in imaging.

It seems (at least to me) the confusion on Anakin's face after he slices off Windu's hand is an indication Palpatines influenced him to turn to the Dark Side.

Was R2's magnetic grip (seen in TPM) sacrificed for all the other goodies he was modified with? He rolls around Grievous' ship helplessly instead of magnetizing himself to the deck.

Obi-Wan is the greatest swordsman the Jedi Order ever produced.

Beru seems to be friendly to Obi-Wan when he delivers Luke, but Owen stands away from them. Even back then, he may have been resentful of Obi-Wan bringing trouble to his house.
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Post by avatarxprime »

The shields on the droids that were mining Mustafar are capable of dynamic shape changing. When Anakin jumps on top of the droid during the fight, the shield seems to widen to encompass him. If you look at Anakins' feet during the fight there seems to be a blue-ish/purple-ish glow akin to a shield curving upward towards his ankles.
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Post by xammer99 »

The stuff R2 sprayed on the superdriods....thruster fuel.
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Post by Eframepilot »

It is indisputably confirmed once and for all that Yoda's line about Jedi using the Force only for knowledge and defense, never attack was utter bullshit. We now have canon evidence of Obi-Wan and Yoda, the two biggest goody-two-shoes the Jedi Order ever produced, using Force shoves and other direct Force attacks against living opponents.
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Post by Invictus ChiKen »

1) The Jedi's view on death mirrors many of our Real World occult groups. "Rejoice for those that have died"

2) It seems the Sith deal only in absolutes.

3) Am I the only one that wonders if the Sepertis may have been for the most part good. Rember Darth Tyranus and General Grevious gave strick orders against killing Padawan's and children. I wouldn't be suprised to learn RE-activated Battle Driods where serving in the Rebellion for a time. (Theory)

4) It seems Corosaunt has Fire Fighting ships. Not a bad idea for a planet that is covered with cities.

5) It seems a droid or being with sufficant reflexs can wild Light Sabers. Grevious wasn't a force sensetive yet he held his own against Obi-Wan. Also he killed many Jedi.

6) Aayla's dead :(

7) Not sure if this is note worthy. But Vader's reaction in full armor about Padme's death where he destroyed the operating room, but somehow Palpitine remained unharmed.

8) The lack of anesthesia given to Anakin during his operation. Apartenly he needed to be awake all through it.

9) It seems Palpatine has some form of emotional attachment to Anakin. If he was as evil as I felt he was he would have left him todie instead he had him rushed to help. Also the genuine concern from the Clone Troopers added a very nice touch.

What can I say I like it when the bad guys arn't PURE evil.
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Post by HemlockGrey »

Oh, other things:

"Ray Shields" can be used to contain people within a warship, and can thus act as an additional layer of defense against boarders. We can surmise that the reason they were not used against Luke and Co on the Death Star was because that group was being used as bait; also, either they are not available on smaller ships like the Tantive IV, or the Tantive's ray shields were knocked out by the ISD in ANH. Starships must also have some mechanism for locating individuals within them or tracking intruders for these to function properly.

The Wookies maintain their own military, including their own military vehicles. Their aerial vehicles appear to incoporate some sort of ornithopter-like technology, as they flap their blades instead of using rotars or jets. This appears to strengthen the theory that the Republic Army was mainly rushed around to "hot spots" while the individual system militias were relied upon to hold the line.

This is just a side note, but for some reason, the Seperatists did not shell or use airpower to soften up the Wookie-held beach prior to their assault, nor did the Wookies employ any large, fixed defenses other than some light emplacements and trenches. Apparently the site of battle was rather hastily chosen; the Clone armor does not arrive in strength until the battle is well underway.
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Post by 2000AD »

- Presumably the reason wookies got used as slave labour is because they helped Yoda escape. The clones would have tried to kill him, so would any separatists left, so the only way he could have got off planet was help from the wookies, and since Yoda was an "enemy of the Republic" this got the wookies in deep shit, hence giving them a good reason to enslave them other than "They're big and strong".

Also, during ESB and ROTJ Luke presumably didn't make any mention of Yoda to Chewie or he'd have told him about him.

- Clones have field medics.

- Clones can be sloppy, such as Kodee not bothering to check for Obi-Wans body, despite the Jedi regularly showing super human abilities.
OR
Not as likely, but the clones are capable of having emotion and/or independant free will. Kodee had served with Obiwan before and may have been his friend, therefore deliberately called off any further seach for his body.

- Clones do have a certain degree of individuality, as shown by names and also the different hair styles.

- Death during child birth is still a reasonable possibility in the SW universe, or else Anakin wouldn't have been so worried.

- The prostechtics given to Anakin made him a bit taller, hence the notes in the AOTC revelations about Anakin using the force to grow are wrong.

- Despite being an independant body that elects it's own members the Jedi Council can still be ordered around by the chancellor.
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Post by SVPD »

Venerators have their docking bay on the dorsal surface, not the ventral. Possibly a design improvement in ISDs or Victorys to mount it ventrally? Perhaps to allow more HTLs and MTLs on the dorsal surface for fire concentration?

The S-foils of the X-Wing is not new. Previous fighters also had "attack position" wings. Any insight as to why some types of ships have this variable geometry? In real-life fighters it's to adapt aerodynamics to the airspeed of the fighter, but I don't think that applies to the SW ships

Jedi have some sort of dogmatic objection to firearms. Obi-Wan throws away the gun he kills Grevious with despite having lost his lightsaber. Possibly indictive that the Jedi Order has become stagnat or dogmatic in some respects? It only appears to apply to personal weapons, since they ahve no objection to flying armed spaccraft.

The jedi Order's demand of celibacy has something to do with fear that romantic attachments will promote greed and jealousy. A more concrete reason than previously understood perhaps?

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Post by Pcm979 »

Just a quick note- The ICS says that the Venator's ventral SPHAT gun is an Open Circle Fleet-exclusive modification.
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Post by Firefox »

SVPD wrote:Venerators have their docking bay on the dorsal surface, not the ventral. Possibly a design improvement in ISDs or Victorys to mount it ventrally? Perhaps to allow more HTLs and MTLs on the dorsal surface for fire concentration?
This is covered in the ICS. It's mentioned as a design flaw corrected in later designs.
The S-foils of the X-Wing is not new. Previous fighters also had "attack position" wings. Any insight as to why some types of ships have this variable geometry?
Also explained in the ICS. The S-foils are opened to expose radiators.
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Post by The Original Nex »

"Ray Shields" can be used to contain people within a warship, and can thus act as an additional layer of defense against boarders. We can surmise that the reason they were not used against Luke and Co on the Death Star was because that group was being used as bait; also, either they are not available on smaller ships like the Tantive IV, or the Tantive's ray shields were knocked out by the ISD in ANH. Starships must also have some mechanism for locating individuals within them or tracking intruders for these to function properly.
It may also be that these Ray Shield Containment Fields were specifically used on CIS ships as a way to restrain Jedi. Against most intruders, Blast Doors would be sufficient to contain them, but we know from TPM that these doors pose little problems for a Jedi. It would make sense that the Trade Federation learned from their mistakes on Naboo and had these special Containment Fields installed on their ships to keep Jedi infiltrators from running loose.

By ANH Jedi were no longer a problem, so they may have been no reason to have these Ray Shields installed on the Death Star or other warships of the era, as any infiltrator who may get aboard would be discouraged by the (presumably much cheaper) Blast Doors.
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Post by wilfulton »

Super Battle Droids have emotions and can feel pain.

R2 shocked one of the super battle droids with his shocker, causing it to give a cry of pain, and responded with anger, kicking R2 over in retaliation.

R2's body cavity is also more or less soundproof, as he withdraws the communicator into it when trying to hide from the SBD's in the hangar.

R2 has a lot of oil in him, and it is not fire resistant, as it catches quite easily.

R2 can also move a lot faster than we've seen him in ANH, ESB, or ROTJ.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Grievous getting shot by a blaster provides a pretty rough benchmark for blaster firepower. Judging by the ROTS novelization and the visuals, Grievious' organs were at least burned/vaporized, if not actually cremated (I could swear I saw bright burning ashes falling from the inside.) It did take 5 shots in the movie to to it (as opposed to 1 shot in the novel), but it provides a definite benchmark.

(The brain alone weighs probably a couple of kilograms.. and vaporizing the water contant would be at least 1-2 megajoules.. to say nothing of the effects on the rest of the body, IIRC. If the total weight of organs including the brain was oh.. 10 kilos.. not unreasonable.. it would have taken around 10-12 mJ to "vaporise" at least. Cremation arguably would be several times greater.)
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Post by Stormbringer »

One thing worth noting that I haven't seen much comment here on.


1) The Jedi are apparently in a postion to overthrow the Republic if they so choose and have no body that can realistically check them. That indicates major power within the Republic and a fair amount of public trust. How much Palpatine undermined both is up to question but the Jedi clearly feel capable of it. And if they couldn't, Palpatine's coup story would be a lot harder to sell.

You'll note that they consulted with no one, considered no obstacles, and generally seemed to take it for granted that they could remove Palpatine. Even before they know he's a Sith they're prepared to move against him should he not act as they wish. Combined with the fact that they can apparently arrest him on their own say so, that suggests a great deal of autonomous authority. They are literally the judge, jury, and quite possibly executioner; we see that to disturbing affect first with Anakin vis a vi Dooku and later with Mace's attempt against Palpatine.

So it seems likely that the Jedi weild a good deal of power and answer only to themselves. Which seems consistent with the lack of constitutional checks and balances in the Old Republic.

2) The other point that goes along with it, is how little the Jedi trust the politics of the Republic. Now a good many no doubt see the corruption and decay first hand but the lack of faith seems odd. We see Obi-wan slam Padme for being a politician in AotC, which seems odd given that he knows her to be upright an honest. And Anakin only rebukes him for saying that about Padme. Which seems to be a trend when Anakin's own distorted views of the process are taken into account.
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Post by Lord Revan »

Is just me or is there a "build up" of Force power when two Jedi try resist each others abilities causing the double blast(both force users being thrown) seen in the movie
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Post by Sharpshooter »

Let me think...

...well, there's the landing strip which the Invisible Hand crashed on, which might suggest that not all craft are V-TOL capable and that some might use more traditional methods of taking off and landing.

A craft the size of a large barrel is capable of escaping from a plnet's gravity well and possibly entering hyperspace, not to mention containing life support, navigational, and all the other systems you'd ned for basic space transit..

The Mousebot design has been around for at least twenty years. :D

I'm surprised nobody yet mentioned the whole gravity incident aboard the Indivible Hand...

External aid may not be required to remove an astromech droid from its socket - either the droid itself or the socket seems to have an ejection mechanism that can send the thing airborne, letting it get out without requiring the pilot to yank it free.

...and that's it from me.

Edit: well, obviously - I just put it there as a joke and a little nifty thing to see, hence the smiley. :P
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Post by SVPD »

Ok, I'm looking at the invisible hand in the ICS, and it lists 12 PD ion cannons, 2 ion cannons (of unspecified type or purpose) and 102 torpedo tubes.

Since it doesn't list mass drivers seperately, I thik it's safe to assume that the mass drivers are the torpedo tubes.

Therefore, my guess would be:

A) the 2 unspecified Ion Cannons are not listed
B) the 12 PD ion cannons are totally separate weapons from the mass drivers. 1 of them just happens to be in close proximity to what appears to be a torpedo-mass driver/ion gun combination mount.
C) the 102 torpedo tubes are the masss drivers, and each includes a separate ion cannon. These ion cannons are not given their own listing on the ICS armaments listing because they're part of the torpedo tubes anyhow. Their purpose is to keep that weapon mount in action even when it runs out of torpedos, but they are small, not terribly powerful, backup weapons.

Edit: oh yeah, on another topic, we also got an idea of how large ships slow down. They obviously have some sort of thrust reversal mechanism, possibly similar to modern jet airliners.
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Post by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman »

Star Wars Medical/Cybernetic Technology:

Anakin lost both legs and suffered from severe burns. Yet after going through a cybernetic surgery, which only took few hours at most (IIRC about the same amount of time needed by Amidala to give birth), he seemed to be fully recovered, albeit needed some time to get used with his prothestic legs.

(well at least he was able to stand and walk after the surgery, despite his severe injuries. And the fact that the slab was rotated to "standing" position may indicate that Anakin was supposed to be able to walk after the surgery was finished.)



My biggest question is why Anakin wasn't anesthesized during the operation? Was it necessary to keep him conscious? (and feel the pain?)
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Post by Lagmonster »

The Dark wrote:Anakin's hand also seems rather rougher in design than Luke's hand. While the incidents are about 18 years apart, Anakin would have had the benefit of the best Republic medicine, while Luke's cybernetics came from the Rebels, who would presumably not have the top-notch medical equipment. Medtech may have advanced a good bit between the Separatist Civil War and the Rebellion.
Generally, there are two types of prosthetics: ones with superior function and ones with superior aesthetic design. When you go out of your way to make something like that look real (as in Luke's), you usually sacrifice durability and strength unless you are suddenly working with much stronger materials.

That said, I still have a problem with the whole 'technology has advanced by leaps between ROTS and ANH' thing. In fact, it can be said to be the thing that bothers me more than anything else in the series - the discrepancies are enormous and leave a lot of unanswered questions (it gets even worse if you start counting in the things they can do with medical tech in the KOTOR era - it's like they had a twenty-year medical sciences dark age during the Clone Wars without anyone commenting).
Note: I'm semi-retired from the board, so if you need something, please be patient.
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