The New SW Canon

PSW: discuss Star Wars without "versus" arguments.

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Re: The New SW Canon

Post by JME2 » 2014-05-01 09:07am

DaveJB wrote:The early Vong stories were fairly decent IMO, especially compared to the absolute crap that Kevin J. Anderson had been churning out in the preceding years. The problem was more that they wrote themselves into a corner early on and then had to start pulling more and more ridiculous bullshit in order to keep the storyline going.
I plan on doing a NJO reread for the 15th ann. in the Fall, but yeah there pacing issues throughout the whole thing in addition to a variety of mistakes.

The big one that still bugs me was the reveal behind why no one could sense them in the Force. Vergere's theory always made more sense and was more interesting as it forced Luke to acknowledge that even the old Jedi's knowledge of the Force was incomplete.

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Re: The New SW Canon

Post by Darksider » 2014-05-01 09:42am

it also didn't make sense in the context of the EU. Supposedly stripping the Vong Of the force made them invisible, but when Nomi Sunrider did it to Ulic Quel-Droma all it did was take his powers.
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Re: The New SW Canon

Post by JME2 » 2014-05-01 12:46pm

Yeah, I still get the sense that Vergere's theory was their original idea, but they changed their minds late in the game.

Still, it's not as bad as the 'Vergere was a Sith' retcon. That's one of the stupidest decisions of the EU's final years.

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Re: The New SW Canon

Post by Darth Yan » 2014-05-01 12:56pm

Batman wrote:Are we talking about the same EU? The vong were a threat because the New Republic got turned into a bunch of morons and the Force didn't work on the Vong pretty much by writer's fiat.
The point was they were trying to do a different type of threat rather than the Sith Imperial Warlord Bullshit.

The Legacy Comics, to their credit, did it originally. The Jedi and Galactic Alliance do fall, but its because they're too damn moral (the expedient thing would have been to throw the vong to the wolves, but because they wanted to do the right thing they tried to do an investigation. People were still pissed, the empire exploited that existing hatred (since the vong were so destructive they left scars) and things fell to pieces.)

Hand of Thrawn deconstructed the imperial warlord in that the bad guys are portrayed as insane fanatics who can't accept they've lost the war. Kueller had potential in that he wanted revenge for his family's death but became as monstrous as the regime that originally hurt him.

The Post NJO had potential in that it could have shown the painful reconstruction of the galaxy after the war or even had new protagonists (they could have had jedi who couldn't forgive the vong, which would give them understandable reasons for going dark, or officers/survivors of the war who couldn't let go.)

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Re: The New SW Canon

Post by JME2 » 2014-05-01 02:01pm

We saw a little bit of that post-NJO hatred with the True Victory Party -- the Bothans who were still intent on enacting genocide.

But that never really went anywhere.

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Re: The New SW Canon

Post by RogueIce » 2014-05-01 11:41pm

Tychu wrote:My question, what about little things with the EU that explains some things seen in the films? For instance it's the EU that explains that Obi-Wan was studying the busts of the "Lost Twenty" in Episode II.
Is that really such an important detail that the entire movie falls apart without it?
Tychu wrote:Does Shadows of the Empire exist? How did Luke make his own green saber if Shadows doesn't exist?
How did Obi-wan build his lightsaber, or any of the PT Jedi? How did Vader build his red lightsaber after he lost the blue one to Obi-wan in Episode III? This is not a critical detail that makes Return of the Jedi a lesser movie; it's enough to know that he built and/or found a green-bladed lightsaber somewhere along the way.
Tychu wrote:It's the little things, like Hans blood stripes. It was from true EU that we learned Han was in the Imperial Navy.
Maybe the guy just likes pants with a stripe down the leg. He also had yellow stripes during the movies. Those red stripes don't have to be anything more meaningful than a decorative choice on his part.

Hell that was one of the problems with the EU, when it seemed like every-fucking-thing had to be important somehow. Like Ice Cream Machine Man. No, he wasn't some chubby dude with a random bit of machinery fleeing Bespin; he was a Rebel spy with "critical intelligence" or some stupid bullshit. :roll:

Sometimes less is more.
SilverDragonRed wrote:The sad thing about losing the entire EU is that Lucas didn't show any respect to the people who were keeping his setting alive. Without the EU as the only place for Star Wars tales in the decades long span between trilogies, how big do ya'll think the fandom would have clamoring for Phantom Menace?

So, in a final show of disrepect to the people who made him money for decades, he throws all of it under the bus while flipping off all the people who ever created material for it and the fans who got invested in those stories.
I know it's popular to play the Blame Lucas game, but you do know this isn't him, right? I mean granted, he never especially cared about the EU as TCW showed us (except when he liked elements of it and used those). But this is a wider decision made by...the LSG, Disney, whoever.

In any event, it is not disrespectful. Sorry, but it isn't. Any professional author who writes for somebody else's franchise should know damn well that this is not their sandbox, it is somebody else's and if that somebody else decides to ignore or discard their stuff, that's life. It's a part of the business.

Granted some authors (*cough*Karen Traviss*cough*) don't seem to accept that, but it is what it is. Even their original characters aren't really their property, hence Mara Jade dying and Tim Zahn having nothing to say about how she went. That's just the nature of the business.
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Re: The New SW Canon

Post by SilverDragonRed » 2014-05-02 02:11am

RogueIce wrote:I know it's popular to play the Blame Lucas game, but you do know this isn't him, right? I mean granted, he never especially cared about the EU as TCW showed us (except when he liked elements of it and used those). But this is a wider decision made by...the LSG, Disney, whoever.

In any event, it is not disrespectful. Sorry, but it isn't. Any professional author who writes for somebody else's franchise should know damn well that this is not their sandbox, it is somebody else's and if that somebody else decides to ignore or discard their stuff, that's life. It's a part of the business.

Granted some authors (*cough*Karen Traviss*cough*) don't seem to accept that, but it is what it is. Even their original characters aren't really their property, hence Mara Jade dying and Tim Zahn having nothing to say about how she went. That's just the nature of the business.
You're right. I don't why I got overly-emotional about an anthology setting I never cared about. Though what you said does bring up a good question; if Lucas didn't want other people spoiling his vision of Star Wars (and since he didn't give the writers even the most basic guidelines that almost every other anthology setting that ever existed operated by), why did he bother making the EU?

Truthfully, I think blamed Lucas for Disney's decision 'cause I hate how he misrepresented Joseph Campbell's work.
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Re: The New SW Canon

Post by DaveJB » 2014-05-02 07:19am

To be honest, I think they made this decision just so that Abrams and Kasdan would be able to tell the story they wanted to tell, without having to catch up on 23 years of novels and comics. They might adhere to some of the more well-known EU material like the Thrawn Trilogy and - dare I say it - Dark Empire, but I would expect them to be targeting casual moviegoers.

And in all honesty, that's exactly the right thing to do. I mean, can you imagine what a gigantic clusterfuck the first season of NuWho would have been if Russell T. Davies had tried to reconcile all the various 7th and 8th Doctor novels and audio stories written in the previous decade?

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Re: The New SW Canon

Post by RogueIce » 2014-05-02 07:30am

SilverDragonRed wrote:You're right. I don't why I got overly-emotional about an anthology setting I never cared about. Though what you said does bring up a good question; if Lucas didn't want other people spoiling his vision of Star Wars (and since he didn't give the writers even the most basic guidelines that almost every other anthology setting that ever existed operated by), why did he bother making the EU?
Depending on how cynical you are, it's either he knew he had no plans to explore the post-RotJ era so figured why not, or he just saw dollar signs and went with it.

Personally I think it's somewhere in the middle. While I'm sure he saw a financial gain to it, I do think it was because he knew by 1991 that he wasn't doing a Sequel Trilogy, and that "The Further Adventures of Luke Skywalker and Gang" would sell and people would want to read/see/experience it, and gave the go-ahead.

I do think it's worth noting that, in the days of the Bantam EU, there was a general prohibition on covering history prior to the (then only) Trilogy, couldn't mention Luke's mom, the specifics of how Vader got scarred beyond some generalities, etc. This to me says that he knew he was doing the PT (or at least planned to) and so those restrictions were in place so that he wouldn't end up contradicting those stories when he finally released.

Of course when the PT came about, they released plenty of tie-in stories. Which turned out to not be so hot when he hit upon the idea of The Clone Wars and several elements of the prequel EU ended up retconned. But hey, changing plans and all that. He probably didn't know in 1999 when they started with that he'd be making a TV show, and/or didn't really plan on being as involved as he apparently ended up being.

Which is more-or-less similar to this blanket retcon. Back in 1991 he didn't know about how he would sell to Disney over two decades later, nor that a result of that sale would be the Sequel Trilogy he had apparently long abandoned. But now it's here, so the Big Retcon happened. And as far as them wiping out all the pre-RotJ stuff, I honestly just see that as A) Disney keeping their options open and B) getting through all the nerd angst and anger now, rather than going in for a second round when, at some point down the road, they do release movies and/or TV shows set in the PT (or even TOR) era(s) that would have trampled over the EU TCW hadn't already killed off earlier.

It honestly just makes sense with the ambitious plans Disney obviously has for the brand.
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Re: The New SW Canon

Post by Tychu » 2014-05-02 08:41am

In all honesty, yes the movies don't feel complete to me without all the little backstories. When I first watched them I didn't know all of them to be fair. However on my hundreds of re-watches I liked the movies even more that I "know" all the little things like why Han starts wearing 2nd grade blood stripes because a few bounty hunters recognized his pants on Ord Mantell.

I also bought and read all the books, comics and etc. because they were some form of cannon. I always made fun of my super treky friend cause his books didn't "count". I have a 40 something co-worker who is a school psychologist that is also as pissed at this as I am
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Re: The New SW Canon

Post by Gandalf » 2014-05-02 11:38am

Tychu wrote:In all honesty, yes the movies don't feel complete to me without all the little backstories. When I first watched them I didn't know all of them to be fair. However on my hundreds of re-watches I liked the movies even more that I "know" all the little things like why Han starts wearing 2nd grade blood stripes because a few bounty hunters recognized his pants on Ord Mantell.

I also bought and read all the books, comics and etc. because they were some form of cannon. I always made fun of my super treky friend cause his books didn't "count". I have a 40 something co-worker who is a school psychologist that is also as pissed at this as I am
This gives me a sad.

But look at it in a different way; while the official canon is gone, this is a chance to make your own. Just keep the old stories, regardless of whatever the big company does. Use it as a chance to grow.
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Re: The New SW Canon

Post by JME2 » 2014-05-02 12:56pm

I sympathize with Tychu.

I was born after the OT wrapped and grew up more with the EU.

The Thrawn Trilogy and other books were beloved parts of my formative years and it's something I've invested time and money in.

So, even though we knew this was coming and even though it's irrational, it just feels like I'm mourning the loss of an old friend.

I kinda wish Disney had taken the same route as Paramount and just rebooted the whole damm thing while keeping the Prime Reality's stories going in prose-form.

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Re: The New SW Canon

Post by Tychu » 2014-05-02 01:24pm

For me it could also be that as a Social Studies teacher, I view this as changing history to suit your needs. I don't know, Disney could change very little for all we know.
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Re: The New SW Canon

Post by Napoleon the Clown » 2014-05-02 02:27pm

RogueIce wrote:
SilverDragonRed wrote:You're right. I don't why I got overly-emotional about an anthology setting I never cared about. Though what you said does bring up a good question; if Lucas didn't want other people spoiling his vision of Star Wars (and since he didn't give the writers even the most basic guidelines that almost every other anthology setting that ever existed operated by), why did he bother making the EU?
Depending on how cynical you are, it's either he knew he had no plans to explore the post-RotJ era so figured why not, or he just saw dollar signs and went with it.

Personally I think it's somewhere in the middle. While I'm sure he saw a financial gain to it, I do think it was because he knew by 1991 that he wasn't doing a Sequel Trilogy, and that "The Further Adventures of Luke Skywalker and Gang" would sell and people would want to read/see/experience it, and gave the go-ahead.

I do think it's worth noting that, in the days of the Bantam EU, there was a general prohibition on covering history prior to the (then only) Trilogy, couldn't mention Luke's mom, the specifics of how Vader got scarred beyond some generalities, etc. This to me says that he knew he was doing the PT (or at least planned to) and so those restrictions were in place so that he wouldn't end up contradicting those stories when he finally released.

Of course when the PT came about, they released plenty of tie-in stories. Which turned out to not be so hot when he hit upon the idea of The Clone Wars and several elements of the prequel EU ended up retconned. But hey, changing plans and all that. He probably didn't know in 1999 when they started with that he'd be making a TV show, and/or didn't really plan on being as involved as he apparently ended up being.

Which is more-or-less similar to this blanket retcon. Back in 1991 he didn't know about how he would sell to Disney over two decades later, nor that a result of that sale would be the Sequel Trilogy he had apparently long abandoned. But now it's here, so the Big Retcon happened. And as far as them wiping out all the pre-RotJ stuff, I honestly just see that as A) Disney keeping their options open and B) getting through all the nerd angst and anger now, rather than going in for a second round when, at some point down the road, they do release movies and/or TV shows set in the PT (or even TOR) era(s) that would have trampled over the EU TCW hadn't already killed off earlier.

It honestly just makes sense with the ambitious plans Disney obviously has for the brand.
I lean more strongly toward it being motivated by money. Regardless of plans, he likes to get that royalty check. The EU had the added bonus of a few little things that he decided he liked and included them in the PT. A few characters (don't remember which) and the name of the "capital" world.

I honestly don't believe a word he says regarding what he did or didn't have planned. He's gone back and forth on so many statements about what eras movies will or won't cover that none of his statements on plans for SW are at all reliable.
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Re: The New SW Canon

Post by Darksider » 2014-05-02 06:17pm

JME2 wrote:I sympathize with Tychu.

I was born after the OT wrapped and grew up more with the EU.

The Thrawn Trilogy and other books were beloved parts of my formative years and it's something I've invested time and money in.
This. It's upsetting to think I won't get to read any new stories about Jaina Solo, Ben Skywalker, or Tahiri Veila. Especially since they were finally coming to the forefront with the "big three" bowing out in Crucible.
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Re: The New SW Canon

Post by JME2 » 2014-05-02 07:45pm

Exactly.

And again, I've this was inevitable when the sale was announced 18 months ago...but it still sucks big time.

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Re: The New SW Canon

Post by Havok » 2014-05-11 01:22pm

SilverDragonRed wrote:
Havok wrote: Can't you remember back to before Heir to the Empire when Star Wars was still fucking awesome?
Says the guy with Darth Time Filler as his avatar.
Darth Maul was the first new Sith Lord and bad guy in 20 years. Darth Maul certainly did nothing to make Star Wars LESS awesome.
The sad thing about losing the entire EU is that Lucas didn't show any respect to the people who were keeping his setting alive. Without the EU as the only place for Star Wars tales in the decades long span between trilogies, how big do ya'll think the fandom would have clamoring for Phantom Menace?
Are you a fucking idiot? People were frothing at the bit for almost 20 years for more Star Wars it would have just intensified as time went on. (I wish it had just been TPM because then I wouldn't have to listen to idiots that wanted them to do any of the EU in the movies)
So, in a final show of disrepect to the people who made him money for decades, he throws all of it under the bus while flipping off all the people who ever created material for it and the fans who got invested in those stories.
By "him" you mean Disney? :lol: Lucas ALWAYS had the same stance on the EU: He liked some of it, liked some of the ideas, but maintained it was a separate universe from his. That hasn't changed one fucking bit you colossal dolt.
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Re: The New SW Canon

Post by Havok » 2014-05-11 01:31pm

Darksider wrote:
JME2 wrote:I sympathize with Tychu.

I was born after the OT wrapped and grew up more with the EU.

The Thrawn Trilogy and other books were beloved parts of my formative years and it's something I've invested time and money in.
This. It's upsetting to think I won't get to read any new stories about Jaina Solo, Ben Skywalker, or Tahiri Veila. Especially since they were finally coming to the forefront with the "big three" bowing out in Crucible.
Guys, you can still love them, and there may even be authors that want to continue writing in the Pre-D EU. It's not the end of the world.
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Re: The New SW Canon

Post by Darksider » 2014-05-11 07:53pm

Havok wrote: Guys, you can still love them, and there may even be authors that want to continue writing in the Pre-D EU. It's not the end of the world.
I honestly don't see any new "Legends" material being made. Everything they had on the schedule for it has been cancelled, and realistically, the majority of EU fans will still buy the new stuff anyways so there's no real reason for Disney or this new "Story Group" to cater to them.
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Re: The New SW Canon

Post by Tiriol » 2014-05-15 02:57am

SilverDragonRed wrote:The sad thing about losing the entire EU is that Lucas didn't show any respect to the people who were keeping his setting alive. Without the EU as the only place for Star Wars tales in the decades long span between trilogies, how big do ya'll think the fandom would have clamoring for Phantom Menace?

So, in a final show of disrepect to the people who made him money for decades, he throws all of it under the bus while flipping off all the people who ever created material for it and the fans who got invested in those stories.
That's pretty rich coming from a guy who belongs to a fandom that has nearly crucified Lucas for the crime of creating the Prequel Trilogy and it not living up to the ridiculous amount of expectations. I haven't heard a single complaint from any EU authors about the state of affairs - even Karen Traviss left for other reasons.

I'm rather fond of a theory that Lucas simply wanted to get rid of the entire Star Wars backage. It has been over nine years since RotS came out and people still blame Lucas for ruining Star Wars, for being an incompetent, selfish and unimaginative hack and calling the PT the worst thing ever. After a while everyone would get sick of it. And for the record: PT is WAY better than most of the shit that is EU. I like certain parts of Expanded Universe, but it's like looking for chocolate inside a pile of shit: some brownish things are truly shit.
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Re: The New SW Canon

Post by Borgholio » 2014-05-15 09:02am

The only thing I hate Lucas for is Greedo shooting first. Everything else isn't that big of a deal and he certainly doesn't deserve the level of scorn he has received regarding the PT. I mean yeah, Phantom Menace was a bit boring compared to other installments, but it was still fucking Star Wars and I still had fun watching it.
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Re: The New SW Canon

Post by SilverDragonRed » 2014-05-15 11:27am

Tiriol wrote:That's pretty rich coming from a guy who belongs to a fandom that has nearly crucified Lucas for the crime of creating the Prequel Trilogy and it not living up to the ridiculous amount of expectations. I haven't heard a single complaint from any EU authors about the state of affairs - even Karen Traviss left for other reasons.

I'm rather fond of a theory that Lucas simply wanted to get rid of the entire Star Wars backage. It has been over nine years since RotS came out and people still blame Lucas for ruining Star Wars, for being an incompetent, selfish and unimaginative hack and calling the PT the worst thing ever. After a while everyone would get sick of it. And for the record: PT is WAY better than most of the shit that is EU. I like certain parts of Expanded Universe, but it's like looking for chocolate inside a pile of shit: some brownish things are truly shit.
Your incessant idoitic babbling would be true if I was a Star Wars fan. I hadn't liked any part of the franchise (outside of GAT, and that's only because he served as inspiration for Farscape's Scorpious) ever since I learned that Lucas perpetuated the absolutely retarded myth of the The Hero's Journey being a paint-by-numbers formula. So, no, I don't hate George for supposedly ruining Star Wars; I have legitimate greivances about his approach to storytelling.

Those who say the PT is the worst thing ever need to be smacked upside the head and shown a copy of Ishtar or Night of the Zombie. While I do think the PT shouldn't have been made, its because Lucas' strength as a director has been taking things he enjoys and making simple tales from them. His best works have been simple stories, and what the PT was supposed to center around is anything but simple.
Havok wrote:Darth Maul was the first new Sith Lord and bad guy in 20 years. Darth Maul certainly did nothing to make Star Wars LESS awesome.
Certainly true, and there is the Clone Wars catoon to some actual character to him.
Ah yes, the "Alpha Legion". I thought we had dismissed such claims.

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Re: The New SW Canon

Post by Tiriol » 2014-05-16 03:26am

SilverDragonRed wrote:
Tiriol wrote:That's pretty rich coming from a guy who belongs to a fandom that has nearly crucified Lucas for the crime of creating the Prequel Trilogy and it not living up to the ridiculous amount of expectations. I haven't heard a single complaint from any EU authors about the state of affairs - even Karen Traviss left for other reasons.

I'm rather fond of a theory that Lucas simply wanted to get rid of the entire Star Wars backage. It has been over nine years since RotS came out and people still blame Lucas for ruining Star Wars, for being an incompetent, selfish and unimaginative hack and calling the PT the worst thing ever. After a while everyone would get sick of it. And for the record: PT is WAY better than most of the shit that is EU. I like certain parts of Expanded Universe, but it's like looking for chocolate inside a pile of shit: some brownish things are truly shit.
Your incessant idoitic babbling would be true if I was a Star Wars fan. I hadn't liked any part of the franchise (outside of GAT, and that's only because he served as inspiration for Farscape's Scorpious) ever since I learned that Lucas perpetuated the absolutely retarded myth of the The Hero's Journey being a paint-by-numbers formula. So, no, I don't hate George for supposedly ruining Star Wars; I have legitimate greivances about his approach to storytelling.
So, you are not a Star Wars fan and apparently don't care about the franchise at all - and yet you come to a sub-forum dedicated entirely TO Star Wars, accuse George Lucas of disrespecting EU authors and when called on it, try to refute it by saying "nah nah, I don't care about Star Wars, just Lucas because he stinks". Cute, although I didn't have any reason to suspect you were NOT a Star Wars fan based on your post, unless of course you imagine that I religiously track down new users so that I may take a measure of their likes and dislikes. As for the Hero's journey formula, I can't comment on it, since I don't know about Lucas's views on it and how they differ from Campbell's.

By the way, since you accuse my babbling to be idiotic, I'd suggest you to spell the word "idiotic" right.
Those who say the PT is the worst thing ever need to be smacked upside the head and shown a copy of Ishtar or Night of the Zombie. While I do think the PT shouldn't have been made, its because Lucas' strength as a director has been taking things he enjoys and making simple tales from them. His best works have been simple stories, and what the PT was supposed to center around is anything but simple.
I don't know about that, PT is actually pretty simple in its themes and what it centers around (Anakin's fall). While more sombre and a bit more complex than the original Star Wars movie (the first one), Anakin's journey has its echo in Return of the Jedi. Every time Vader and Luke (and Leia) discuss their relationship, the tone is sombre, with mixed emotions and uncertainty (save for Luke's belief that there's still good left in his father). It could have been handled better in the PT, sure, but it was good enough. Many problems with PT seem to be more about Lucas being not that great with writing dialogue or directing people - something which he knows himself, since he tried to get others to direct the movies and asked several colleagues of his to read TPM's script and suggest improvements. I often wonder how things would have turned out if someone had done as Lucas asked - maybe PT would be held up as equal or near-equal to the OT. Maybe not. The dark side is hard to see and understand, the fandom even moreso.
Havok wrote:Darth Maul was the first new Sith Lord and bad guy in 20 years. Darth Maul certainly did nothing to make Star Wars LESS awesome.
Certainly true, and there is the Clone Wars catoon to some actual character to him.
Bringing Maul back from the dead is, in my opinion, a stupid choice: people accuse Lucas of being a hack and yet are glamouring for "return from the dead" cliche that has made soap operas so groan-worthy.
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Havok
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Re: The New SW Canon

Post by Havok » 2014-05-16 07:03am

I like Phantom Menace Maul. Bringing him back in the cartoon was fucking lame. It's the PTE equivalent of the EU bringing back Boba Fett.

Oh and what character did it add to him? That he was a crazy Sith Lord with mechanical legs seeking revenge against one Jedi instead of a Sith Lord seeking revenge against all the Jedi.
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Re: The New SW Canon

Post by Rycon67 » 2014-05-19 09:37pm

Tychu wrote:For me it could also be that as a Social Studies teacher, I view this as changing history to suit your needs. I don't know, Disney could change very little for all we know.
http://insidepulse.com/2014/05/16/disne ... -new-dawn/

Well going by what we know now, while a lot of stuff will get taken to the woodshed, it looks like they're still going to take some stuff from canon. The Inquisitor, the Imperial Security Bureau, and Sienar Fleet Systems as mentioned in the article, all with EU based origins, are going to be involved to one extent or another with the new upcoming cartoon show at the least. I wouldn't be surprised if some other material works it's way in somewhere, if even a throwaway line or background piece on a tv episode or an upcoming movie.

Wouldn't be the first time EU material has made it into the main storyline, we do have things like Jedi Quinlan Vos or that blue chick being lifted from comics and being put into the movies or the Clone Wars cartoons afterall.

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