The New SW Canon

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-06-28 09:34pm

Since everything in continuity is being called canon since Rostini's quote, the I#68 quote is not contradicted by Chee specifying what level of canon it belongs to.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2004-06-28 10:07pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Since everything in continuity is being called canon since Rostini's quote, the I#68 quote is not contradicted by Chee specifying what level of canon it belongs to.

Agreed. And note that the DK books are considered SW "non fiction", and the only source other than the SW Chronicles the people that are making Ep 3 use as a reference.

Rightous Fist Of Heaven · Post by **Rightous Fist Of Heaven** » 2004-06-29 06:10am

Hmm, well i concur after reading the I#68 quote again. However, there is now a slight issue of what overrides what in the case of contradiction if there is one between two "C" level products. Quite obviously, the games are in contradiction with practically everything else, but they as well belong to "C" level, does it go like "the majority evidence overrides the source that creates the contradiction" or something else?

And in regards to Dipshit, for him (well from his fucked up view of reality anyways) this is a big victory. If he goes on insisting (which he does) that only "G" canon is the accurate representation of SW, then he can easilly dismiss the "C" canon entirely. Ofcourse, he will ignore the fact that the base for his "G-canon being blah blah blah" arguments has now been thrown out of the window since "C" canon is part of the continuity (even the goddamn name says it) and Leland Chee further supports it in many instances. Basically, we cant argue anymore that the ICS's would be in the highest class of evidence, since they are not, but we can argue now with plenty of ammunition that Baldstars dismissal of the EU etc. is the result of bullshit argumentation (like we havent done that before but now we have more ammo).

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-06-29 06:25am

Rightous Fist Of Heaven wrote:Hmm, well i concur after reading the I#68 quote again. However, there is now a slight issue of what overrides what in the case of contradiction if there is one between two "C" level products.

Same as always- EU vs EU is still the issue.

Quite obviously, the games are in contradiction with practically everything else, but they as well belong to "C" level, does it go like "the majority evidence overrides the source that creates the contradiction" or something else?

Rationalization first, "overriding" if there's absolutely no option. Game mechanics still count for nothing, after all.

And in regards to Dipshit, for him (well from his fucked up view of reality anyways) this is a big victory. If he goes on insisting (which he does) that only "G" canon is the accurate representation of SW, then he can easilly dismiss the "C" canon entirely. Ofcourse, he will ignore the fact that the base for his "G-canon being blah blah blah" arguments has now been thrown out of the window since "C" canon is part of the continuity (even the goddamn name says it) and Leland Chee further supports it in many instances. Basically, we cant argue anymore that the ICS's would be in the highest class of evidence, since they are not, but we can argue now with plenty of ammunition that Baldstars dismissal of the EU etc. is the result of bullshit argumentation (like we havent done that before but now we have more ammo).

Not to mention that there is a specific category of "N" canon (i.e. non-canon, what he argues the entire EU is in). Suck it down, eh?

This is also somewhat of a smaller victory in that, as I said, his claims that AT-ST, for example, is a "non-canon" name is rubbish- the Leland Chee quote proves that. At the very *least*, every name in the ICS (and every other relevant book or anywhere else in the C canon) of an item seen in the films is now indisputably G-canon, because that's what he said.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2004-06-29 12:03pm

I think that we should start playing Darkstar's game since it's useless to discuss canon issues with him. I mean, he has created a new page called
"A History of the ICS Canonicity Myth". If Darkstar, at this point, don't realize that the ICS is canon, then I don't know what he is. This is off-topic, but I suggest that we from now on should get harder with the Star Trek canon and follow Gene Roddenberry's order that "It isn't Star Trek until I say it's Star Trek". With Roddenberry's own words in mind, then Star Trek V The Final Frontier to Star Trek Nemesis, TNG, VOY, DS9 and Enterprise can be ignored.

Unfortunately, I was wrong when I thought that Darkstar could be an intelligent person who had the courage to admit that he was wrong now that the person who tracks continuity at LFL has explained the matter. I was also wrong when I thought canon issues could be debated in an orderly manner when he started his board. Instead, he chickened out, closed the board and laid the blame on the members! How stupid is that?! I'm getting mad at that.... person.
IMO we should totally ignore Darkstar until he wakes up from his deep sleep.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-06-29 04:40pm

This is off-topic, but I suggest that we from now on should get harder with the Star Trek canon and follow Gene Roddenberry's order that "It isn't Star Trek until I say it's Star Trek". With Roddenberry's own words in mind, then Star Trek V The Final Frontier to Star Trek Nemesis, TNG, VOY, DS9 and Enterprise can be ignored.

We did that. It didn't work too well, as he closed his board within days.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2004-06-29 04:52pm

Rogue 9 wrote:
This is off-topic, but I suggest that we from now on should get harder with the Star Trek canon and follow Gene Roddenberry's order that "It isn't Star Trek until I say it's Star Trek". With Roddenberry's own words in mind, then Star Trek V The Final Frontier to Star Trek Nemesis, TNG, VOY, DS9 and Enterprise can be ignored.
We did that. It didn't work too well, as he closed his board within days.

Yes, that was the point I tried to make (not the hardest conclusion to draw, but still...).
Anyway, Chee has updated in the thread, saying that there are no separate layers within the different canon levels.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2004-06-29 10:25pm

Rightous Fist Of Heaven wrote:And in regards to Dipshit, for him (well from his fucked up view of reality anyways) this is a big victory.

Again, why? Don't be concerned with "D" level canon. Who gives a fuck about his thoughts on the canon issue. The official quote from LFL is now out, and it is relatively exactly the same as we've been saying it was all these years. Let Dipshit stew in his own crock-pot and cry along with his other two fans on his failed web board.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-06-30 01:00am

What does he really think, honestly? That Leland Chee is some renegade loony on the Ranch who's defying GL's intentions and vision and somehow getting away with a massive paycheck for doing so?

Does the fact that the crew consults some "C level canon" and Chee's own Holocron as sources while making "G level canon" not occur to him?

And besides, Poe and I in our duels

came across quotes which described precisely how GL was in fact involved in the first two big EU projects of the '90's, the Thrawn Trilogy and Dark Empire, even contrasting this with later stuff saying that afterward he let Licensing take care of it.

So if the EU was a meaningless money bag alternate universe, why EVER care at all? Why consult the Holocron and DK nonfiction in making canon films?

The answer? Darkstar is a complete drooling nutter.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-06-30 01:42am

The problem with DarkStar is that his position boils down to something that's all but unfalsifiable:

1. DarkStar doesn't give a fuck what LucasFILM says, he only claims care what Lucas says.

That, in and of itself, destroys 90% of the quotes on what is and is not canonical material.

2. Since no representatives of LucasFILM are Lucas, their quotes are therefore totally irrelevant.

While this doesn't make any sense if you stop to think about it, DarkStar doesn't care. As was illuminated in his most recent exchange with Mike Wong, he feels that LucasFilm could easily have produced its own version of continuity that is totally independent of George Lucas, the CEO and owner of the company.

These two principles are the basis for his entire argument (I don't even see why he bothers to address the statements made by anyone other than Lucas, since it's clear he dismisses them out of hand [ie. the most recent quote, here, in which he disagrees with Chee (read: not Lucas) and therefore ignores the point brought up in the statement]). I suspect, however, that the reason is that if he simply ignored the other statements entirely, people would soon realize that he's just bullshitting since Wayne Poe has three times the number of quotes he has.

Regardless, he also runs with a mentality that a quote can totally override another one, even if there is a way to resolve the two. For example, note how he treats the Splinter of the Mind's Eye preface. He begins by TOTALLY altering the meaning of the statement by claiming that Lucas contrasted Splinter... with ESB (which is obviously a lie, as anyone familiar with the English language can attest). He then points out that other quotes, like the parallel universe one, override it since they are more recent. Finally, he throws in some bunk about how the fact that Lucas COULD take the liberties to ignore aspects of Splinter... therefore means that the fans SHOULD, as well, rather than reconciling the Splinter... quote and the "parallel universe" one by applying the "window" analogy quote (not from Lucas).

By totally dismissing the statements from everyone except Lucas, and by taking only Lucas' statements without context, DarkStar manages to create a house of cards that manages to stay up. His arguments, in the absence of an outside force, appear to stand up on themselves through mutual support. The problem is that if ANY of his assumptions are rebutted, the entire stack of cards collapses and drags his argument down with it. We're seeing that, now, with how the Chee quote DEMOLISHES his claims that the AT-ST is a combat vehicle (to be fair, that idea was retarded to begin with), and SERIOUSLY damages other aspects of his website.

Rightous Fist Of Heaven · Post by **Rightous Fist Of Heaven** » 2004-07-06 03:35pm

Ok guys, i got Darkstar out of his hidey hole to debate what is admissable and whats not. Sadly, he's not much of a challenge. He even uses an obvious lie as an attempt to support his argument.

Go here to check it out and get some good laughs out of it: (remove the spaces to make it work)
+http://www.trekbbs.com/threads/showflat ... art=2&vc=1

I've gotten a whole lot of the Trekkies out of their holes who support Darkstars "alternate universe" bullshit. Most of them seem to skip thru all of the relevant arguments and quotes i've provided earlier and thus i allways need to say it all to them again. Anyways, its pretty entertaining. Actually, its good enough that someone really should copy the stuff Darky has posted.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2004-07-06 11:20pm

Really man, let's not stink up this sticky any more than what it is. Its supposed to serve the SW canon, not some fuckhead's idiotic rantings.

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-07-07 02:08am

Indeed. No more posting about Darkstar.

(his pathetic claim that "AT-ST" wasn't G-level canon even though that's *Exactly* what Chee said is laughable)

Rightous Fist Of Heaven · Post by **Rightous Fist Of Heaven** » 2004-07-07 01:58pm

Vympel wrote:Indeed. No more posting about Darkstar.

(his pathetic claim that "AT-ST" wasn't G-level canon even though that's *Exactly* what Chee said is laughable)

Well, just thought it would be funny to let everyone know how badly Darkstar has taken this new info

Yeah, the AT-ST thing was really funny. He basically claimed that Chee said no such thing, falling back on the "everything created by the author is C level" and ignored what Chee said about the names.

Super-Gagme · Post by **Super-Gagme** » 2004-07-22 03:40pm

I hate to pick an old nose..but reading this new canon policy makes me think about the good old Executor length. According to this, C level canon that appears in movies can become G level. So where do Essential guides sit? The website databank? I wonder, what length does the spiffy little holocron give to the SSD?

Also, I'm too lazy to quote from the original post, it mentions that they weigh what is most popular. And of course a 12.something km SSD is the most popular/common size at this moment. But then there is Essential guides, blargh. Somebody should get him to comment on screen evidence and sizes.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2004-07-31 12:51pm

So where do EU creations that appear in the movies fall?

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-07-31 01:38pm

Ender wrote:So where do EU creations that appear in the movies fall?

Clearly G-level canon. After all, they're in the films.

I hate to pick an old nose..but reading this new canon policy makes me think about the good old Executor length. According to this, C level canon that appears in movies can become G level. So where do Essential guides sit? The website databank? I wonder, what length does the spiffy little holocron give to the SSD?

Who cares? The films are still absolute authority. The Essential Guides are irrelevant. What Leland Chee is saying, it looks to me, is that at least anything an author *names* thats seen in the film, becomes G-level canon. Like AT-ST.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2004-08-01 11:36am

Vympel wrote:
Ender wrote:So where do EU creations that appear in the movies fall?
Clearly G-level canon. After all, they're in the films.

But they were not created by George.

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-08-02 02:57am

Ender wrote:But they were not created by George.

Leland Chee was explicit:

Similarly, any "C" canon item that makes it into the films can become "G" canon

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2004-08-04 05:32am

Technically, not many vehicles were created specifically by Lucas. Doesn´t he just go around stamping 'approved' on concept drawings most of the time? He didn´t come up with any of those, that means essentially thy were all C-canon until he approved them for use in the movies. He let ILM direct most of the big battle scenes in AOTC, for goodness sake! Seems the lines between C- and G-canon are really fucking blurred. Hope we get an end all-be all guide to everything in the star wars universe, made long after Episode III and the definitive DVD-set is out, giving more or less biographies of every person, object, location and event in the movies and everything else. Make it a series of volums, made as time in the SW-galaxy goes by. Hell, just release the whole fucking Holocron-database-thingy and be done with it!

quotes which described precisely how GL was in fact involved in the first two big EU projects of the '90's, the Thrawn Trilogy and Dark Empire, even contrasting this with later stuff saying that afterward he let Licensing take care of it.

What was the specifics of Lucas´involvement? You´ve peaked my curiosity...

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2004-08-04 04:52pm

Chee answered an other question today that settles the fact that C and G level canon form an overall continuity.

The answer can be found here:
+http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jsp?f ... 25#7421534

EDIT: Edited link to avoid hotlinking.

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-08-05 02:21am

Good work, Mange.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2004-09-15 09:04pm

And here's the latest, solid proof that the EU MATTERS to Lucas and the overall SW continuity:

linky

AP: After "Episode III," will you ever revisit "Star Wars"?

Lucas: Ultimately, I'm going to probably move it into television and let other people take it. I'm sort of preserving the feature film part for what has happened and never go there again, but I can go off into various offshoots and things. You know, I've got offshoot novels, I've got offshoot comics. So it's very easy to say, "Well, OK, that's that genre, and I'll find a really talented person to take it and create it." Just like the comic books and the novels are somebody else's way of doing it. I don't mind that. Some of it might turn out to be pretty good. If I get the right people involved, it could be interesting.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2004-09-20 04:46pm

Oh, but Poe, don't you know? Since Lucas didn't say the exact, precise words, "The EU is part of my Star Wars universe", nothing counts! None of it! ::sticks his fingers in his ears and hums the Star Trek theme::

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2004-09-20 04:54pm

Lord Poe wrote:And here's the latest, solid proof that the EU MATTERS to Lucas and the overall SW continuity:

linky

AP: After "Episode III," will you ever revisit "Star Wars"?

Lucas: Ultimately, I'm going to probably move it into television and let other people take it. I'm sort of preserving the feature film part for what has happened and never go there again, but I can go off into various offshoots and things. You know, I've got offshoot novels, I've got offshoot comics. So it's very easy to say, "Well, OK, that's that genre, and I'll find a really talented person to take it and create it." Just like the comic books and the novels are somebody else's way of doing it. I don't mind that. Some of it might turn out to be pretty good. If I get the right people involved, it could be interesting.

Wayne, Darkstar used the exact same quote to "prove" the opposite. Clearly, he can't understand what he reads.