The New SW Canon

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Lord Poe
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The New SW Canon

Post by Lord Poe » 2004-06-27 12:56am

Sorry guys; I just don't have time to update my website right now. I don't recall if I posted this before, but I think it is good reading. The current keeper of canon and continuity at Lucasfilm is Leland Chee. All the Rostoni, Cerasi, and other quotes seem to be superceded now. He keeps a continuity database called the "Holocron", which used to be an internal Lucasfilm database, but has now been acknoledged in public by Chee on the sw.com message boards and in recent interviews he's given.

Chee calls himself "Tasty Taste" on the sw.com message boards. Below is a few comments on canon and continuity as Chee moderates it for Lucasfilm


http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jsp?f ... msRange=15

Holocron Continuity Database Questions

Tasty Taste

Date Posted: Jan 21, 2004 9:16 AM
Are the entries in the Holocron sorted as cannonical & non-cannonical? Are there various degress of oficialness?

The database does indeed have a canon field. Anything in the films and from George Lucas (including unpublished internal notes that we might receive from him or from the film production department) is considered "G" canon. Next we have what we call continuity "C" canon which is pretty much everything else. There is secondary "S" continuity canon which we use for some older published materials and things that may or may not fit just right. But, if it is referenced in something else it becomes "C". Similarly, any "C" canon item that makes it into the films can become "G" canon. Lastly there is non-continuity "N" which we rarely use except in the case of a blatant contradiction or for things that have been cut.

I will not go into specifics as to what is considered "S" canon or what items that are seemingly "C" canon are actually "G" canon.

Okay, I know that the novels are C-level, and I assume that most of the newer comics are also C-level. Where on the continuity spectrum to the Video games come in?

"...continuity "C" canon which is pretty much everything else. " By everything else I mean EVERYthing else. Novels, comics, junior novels, videogames, trading card games, roleplaying games, toys, websites, television. As I've mentioned earlier, any contradictions that arise are dealt on a case-by-case. This has been our general approach to continuity since we began using the Holocron database to track it.

In a nutshell, anything created by the author would be C-level. Anything in the the novels created by George Lucas (whether it comes from unpublished early script versions, unpublished author interviews with George, or George's revisions to the novelization manuscript) would be G-level unless contradicted by the films.

It gets a little more complicated when something is seen on-screen but not named. So the "shuura fruit" mentioned in the AOTC novel would be G because you see it in the film, although the author came up with the name.

Is there anything post-Return of the Jedi that is G level?

Not in the database, no. If there is anything anywhere, only George knows.

Though I don't discuss specific continuity issues in this thread, I do want to the address the fact that in the Holocron, we track continuity by Holocron entry and not by source.

What that means is, a particular source would never be discounted in its entirety, only those elements of that source that are contradictory.

Hence, while there may be individual elements of say the Marvel Comics or the Holiday Special that are considered non-continuity, all the other parts can still be valid.
Chee Interview
Everything is looked at on a case-by-case basis. Among the factors we consider: In how many sources does this particular fact appear? Which source has the largest audience? Which explanation is the coolest? Have we been told by George Lucas to avoid this topic? If, after weighing all those variables, the answer isn't yet clear, the issue is presented to an internal group that makes the final determination as to which source is "correct."
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Post by Crown » 2004-06-27 01:04am

Poe, I am stickyfing this for you.
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Post by Spanky The Dolphin » 2004-06-27 01:04am

Well, it mostly seems to be more or less the same as it's always been.
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Post by Crown » 2004-06-27 01:10am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Well, it mostly seems to be more or less the same as it's always been.
Except that the ICS is now seemed to be pushed to the 'C' class ... or did I miss something to suggest otherwise?
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Post by Lord Poe » 2004-06-27 01:13am

Crown wrote:Poe, I am stickyfing this for you.
Thanks. Spanky, yes it does seem similar to everything we've been saying for years, doesn't it? But this is for those that say Lucasfilm canon policy is never explicitly stated. Yes it is; right there in black and white (depeding on your template preferences!)

Thus, you can clearly see that the "C" level DK books, like the AOTC:ICS are now considered "G" level canon!
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Post by Crown » 2004-06-27 01:16am

Lord Poe wrote:
Crown wrote:Poe, I am stickyfing this for you.
Thanks. Spanky, yes it does seem similar to everything we've been saying for years, doesn't it? But this is for those that say Lucasfilm canon policy is never explicitly stated. Yes it is; right there in black and white (depeding on your template preferences!)

Thus, you can clearly see that the "C" level DK books, like the AOTC:ICS are now considered "G" level canon!
Wait :wtf: just hang on.

I know he didn't say that implicitly, but is this where he says things which are in the books and make their way into the movies are considered 'G' level?
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Post by Lord Poe » 2004-06-27 01:16am

Crown wrote:Except that the ICS is now seemed to be pushed to the 'C' class ... or did I miss something to suggest otherwise?
Nope, it's "G" level. Consider: "
Similarly, any "C" canon item that makes it into the films can become "G" canon."
Many things established in the AOTC:ICS appeared in AOTC. (See the Saxton interview section on my page: http://h4h.com/louis/sources.html)
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Post by Crown » 2004-06-27 01:17am

Lord Poe wrote:
Crown wrote:Except that the ICS is now seemed to be pushed to the 'C' class ... or did I miss something to suggest otherwise?
Nope, it's "G" level. Consider: "
Similarly, any "C" canon item that makes it into the films can become "G" canon."
Many things established in the AOTC:ICS appeared in AOTC. (See the Saxton interview section on my page: http://h4h.com/louis/sources.html)
:P

Look up a post! :P :P :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Post by Lord Poe » 2004-06-27 01:18am

Crown wrote:Wait :wtf: just hang on.

I know he didn't say that implicitly, but is this where he says things which are in the books and make their way into the movies are considered 'G' level?
Yup.
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Post by Crown » 2004-06-27 01:18am

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Ah, we are out of posting synch! :P 8)
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Post by Lord Poe » 2004-06-27 01:18am

Yes Crown, we're chasing each other!! :P
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Post by nightmare » 2004-06-27 01:27am

Ah yes, I saw this on TFN and wondered if I should put it up. It reinforces what we knew from before. Nice way to put it though.
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Post by Vympel » 2004-06-27 10:22am

Coolies.
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Post by Ghost Rider » 2004-06-27 10:26am

Very cool.

Seriously an interesting bit given people still adher...ICS=non canon.

Very cool, indeed.
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Post by Rightous Fist Of Heaven » 2004-06-27 10:59am

Soo, basically since all the equipment from AOTC:ICS appeared in AOTC, then all the information regarding that equipment is canon? E.g the name of that fruit wasnt stated in AOTC but since the same fruit was mentioned in the novel and a name for it was given, the name was thus canon. Ok, the only way i can understand this is that everything regarding the vechiles in AOTC:ICS is canon, as well as the tech explanations in the beginning because holonet and the weapons stuff appear in the movies and are further explained in AOTC:ICS.

Please correct me if im wrong.

BTW, it will be interesting to see how Dipshit will react to this :lol:
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Post by Vympel » 2004-06-27 11:38am

The chickenshit will simply pretend it doesn't exist, and start equivocating and nitpicking about Leland Chee or some such utter nonsense. It's not like his pathetic little fantasy world isn't already built on ridiculous interpretations and falsehoods, is it?
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Post by Mange » 2004-06-27 12:35pm

There is one interesting comment made in the last page as well:
I don't forsee that happening. Sorry. I really wouldn't take too much stock into the difference between G-level and C-level because the lines between the two are so blurred.
http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jsp?f ... msRange=15

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Post by Rightous Fist Of Heaven » 2004-06-27 03:02pm

Hah, it seems that Dipshit has put up a reply to your additions to the Canon section Wayne. Quoting it:
Dumbshit wrote:There's a lot of information in the above. Let's start at the top, where he says that the Holocron is "maintained by Lucas Licensing". We knew that, of course, but it never hurts to repeat it. This internal LL database is not directly called for by George Lucas . . . which means that whereas Sue Rostoni finds Chee the indispensible go-to-guy, Lucas does not. Lucas explained more about this in Insider #45, wherein he explained that something like the Holocron might exist in the dark recesses of his company, but that he hadn't seen it and didn't know . . . he knew the consistencies, and could make up what he needed. Or, to put it in Rostoni's way, George just doesn't pay much attention to the EU when making the films. If he did, he'd certainly keep Chee by his side at all times.

Chee's distinction of Lucas canon vs. Lucasfilm (or really, Lucas Licensing) canon gets more fleshed out in the posts above. They consider the films, Lucas's notes, production notes, script info, and most film novelization data to be G-level (i.e. Lucas canon).

Then, they have the Lucasfilm canon, which Chee in the above calls the "continuity canon", or C-level canon. That "continuity canon" phrasing is more accurate, though the use of the term "continuity canon" is potentially headache-inspiring. It includes "[...] EVERYthing else. Novels, comics, junior novels, videogames, trading card games, roleplaying games, toys, websites, television." Per another post, it also somehow includes author-inserted data from the film novelizations, though one wonders how they could possibly handle that line-by-line (or what they do when Lucas insists that his name be on a novel instead of the real author's).

I would agree with his blurring of the lines between Lucas and Lucas Licensing canon in regards to the novelizations, if indeed they actually go through and line-item the text to mark it G or C. However, that basically just serves to support the view maintained on this site that the novelizations are "very accurate depictions of the Star Wars films" but lower in the canon ranks, superceded by scripts and films, with the radio dramas even lower (because so much more was author-produced).

However, I would not agree with Chee's opinion about blurred lines overall. For starters, if the lines were so blurred he couldn't maintain a G-level and a C-level. Next, he makes a clear distinction in regards to how something which is part of the LucasBooks continuity can make entry into the Lucas canon . . . it has to make it into the films, and even then only the filmed material is of the Lucas canon. That is precisely the view maintained on this website for ages, of course. (Entertainingly, Wayne Poe has been claiming that this somehow makes the Episode II Incredible Cross Sections book . . . which falls under LucasBooks canon per Rostoni, and per Chee's criteria . . . somehow graduate into Lucas canon, which is the exact opposite of what Chee stated. Only what was seen in the films is canon.)

The only source of blurring is in regards to how LucasBooks and Lucas Licensing try to follow the lead of George Lucas from his statements, notes they acquire, and so on and so forth. Their efforts to modify the EU to plug-in to the canon may keep things blurred for them, but the distinction between the canon and the EU is clear for all, including (if not especially) Lucas himself.
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Post by Lord Poe » 2004-06-28 12:20am

Rightous Fist Of Heaven wrote:Hah, it seems that Dipshit has put up a reply to your additions to the Canon section Wayne.
Of course he did. He's got blisters from wanking his crank to anything I post. The only blurring here is his hand as he feverishly manipulates his overgrown clitoris.

"I don't agree with Chee here..." SO FUCKING WHAT? Guess what cock breath, your opinion means jack shit. Chee controls the continuity for Star Wars. Whenever Lucas needs a reference to a ship or alien, he CONSULTS THE HOLOCRON; which means he calls up Chee, or has Licensing name something. Lucas couldn't GIVE less of a fuck what C-3P0's left elbow servo is called or what droid company made it. He lets "Licensing" name it, and HE APPROVES IT.

Since I know you can read this, you cowardly motherfucker, why don't you go graft yourself to Mike Dicenso's balls. That way the both of you will actually serve a purpose: you can be his athletic supporter, and he can tell everyone someone other than himself touches his privates at night.
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Post by Vympel » 2004-06-28 04:28am

The moment I saw "I don't agree with Chee" I was about to get a reaction just like the one you had, Poe. It's truly amazing that someone can think anyone gives a fuck what he agrees with, as if his opinion makes smegging canon policy (sorry, been watching Red Dwarf).
Entertainingly, Wayne Poe has been claiming that this somehow makes the Episode II Incredible Cross Sections book . . . which falls under LucasBooks canon per Rostoni, and per Chee's criteria . . . somehow graduate into Lucas canon, which is the exact opposite of what Chee stated. Only what was seen in the films is canon.)
*sigh*
It gets a little more complicated when something is seen on-screen but not named. So the "shuura fruit" mentioned in the AOTC novel would be G because you see it in the film, although the author came up with the name.
The Acclamator is G. Everything about it, is G. Sorry.

(Oh, incidentally, his "the AT-ST is a non-canon name" argument is quite obsolete, as are all his claims regarding it being a "combat vehicle" rather than a mere scout", no matter whether he clings to his delusions or not). It's quite clearly canon.
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Post by nightmare » 2004-06-28 11:43am

Is it just me or does it seem like SW canon has become more clearly defined in recent years?
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Post by Mange » 2004-06-28 03:54pm

Tasty Taste answered this question in the thread over at the Official Forums.

Tasty Taste, I know that you didn't want to be very specific, but could you at least hint in which category (C or G) the Incredible Cross-sections, Visual Dictionary and the Inside the Worlds belongs?

Tasty Taste answered:
Theses books are treated no differently than any other books; anything created by the author would be C-level. I would guess that 95% of the text info in those books is created by the author or is based on information created by another author other than George Lucas.
http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jsp?f ... msRange=15


EDIT: It did clear things up a little. We know now at least that certain elements are G-level while the majority is C-level. Actually this isn't that important since it's still considered canon. This is what matters.
IMO this answer was as good as any, and I don't see any reason to make further inquries.

EDIT: It seems as if I can't stop editing this post. I would say that the classification system used in the Holocron is the same policy which always been around, only a bit more refined.
BTW, George Lucas has never (to my knowledge) claimed total creative control as Gene Roddenberry did (the famous 'It isn't Star Trek until I say it's Star Trek') so the EU (by that I mean the Zahn trilogy and other novels) is part of canon. No arguments WHATSOEVER can be raised against that.

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Post by Rightous Fist Of Heaven » 2004-06-28 04:56pm

Damn, beat me to it Manga, i happen to be "The White Bishop" on SW.com :D

Anyways, because of this revelation the options we have available to us in battling against Dipshit have decreased somewhat. We cant argue anymore that the ICS's are part of the highest canon but they are canon (altough everything is canon according to this new system) and since Disphit seems to clugde to the rule of using only G canon as evidence. Could be problematic indeed.
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Post by Lord Poe » 2004-06-28 08:18pm

Rightous Fist Of Heaven wrote:Anyways, because of this revelation the options we have available to us in battling against Dipshit have decreased somewhat. We cant argue anymore that the ICS's are part of the highest canon but they are canon (altough everything is canon according to this new system) and since Disphit seems to clugde to the rule of using only G canon as evidence. Could be problematic indeed.
And why would that be? Several things in AOTC were the DIRECT RESULT of things made for AOTC:ICS. Several things in Episode 3 came from the DK books, including names.
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Post by Rightous Fist Of Heaven » 2004-06-28 08:56pm

Lord Poe wrote:
Rightous Fist Of Heaven wrote:Anyways, because of this revelation the options we have available to us in battling against Dipshit have decreased somewhat. We cant argue anymore that the ICS's are part of the highest canon but they are canon (altough everything is canon according to this new system) and since Disphit seems to clugde to the rule of using only G canon as evidence. Could be problematic indeed.
And why would that be? Several things in AOTC were the DIRECT RESULT of things made for AOTC:ICS. Several things in Episode 3 came from the DK books, including names.
I know, the problem being that Mr. Chee apparently applies the "pick-and-choose" method. Only those parts that are in the movies are canon but those parts invented by the author are not. Tough, since the names of the vechiles are canon im not sure whether the name = canon system applies to background information as well, going by this new quote from Chee, it would seem that it doesnt.

Tough the fact that Chee's view of the DK books is in somewhat of a contradiction with the I#68 quote troubles me.
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