Why the empire is evil...

[DocMoriartty]

Shadows of the Empire - A city of millions was scorched to destroy a germ warfare weapon that got loose.

Alderaan - You cannot tell me every citizen of the planet was disloyal.

Shall we continue? It is quite obvious that the Empire existed only for the Emperor's benefit and anything else was completely secondary in importance.

The Empire might be unfair, but it never harmed the citizens that were loyal to it.

[Enforcer Talen]

evil acts? yes. justified acts? yes.

plague bombs are going to be researched. even if your learning how to take them down, your researching how to make them stronger. a few mistakes, and they get loose. scorching is perfectly reasonable if it gets going, in the interest of the greater good. better one city then the thousands its spreading to.

alderaan no doubt had it's innocents. but it was funding the rebellion which eventually caused billions of deaths at the least, and was a symbol of futher civil war. with the firepower of the day, planets could have been scorched to the ground, and no one would be able to count the corpses. better one planet then the hundreds.

[Vympel]

alderaan no doubt had it's innocents. but it was funding the rebellion which eventually caused billions of deaths at the least, and was a symbol of futher civil war. with the firepower of the day, planets could have been scorched to the ground, and no one would be able to count the corpses. better one planet then the hundreds.

Ok now that's just insane. This is like saying one should nuke one city with rebels in it to 'potentially' save hundreds. Mass slaughter is never justifiable.

[Slartibartfast]

What you all fail to see, is that after Tarkin destroyed Alderaan, Darth Vader pointed at Leia and said "she did it!" during a holonet broadcast. Thus, the citizens of the Empire have no reason to believe that the Empire is evil at all.

[Shadow Walker]

better one planet then the hundreds.

There was NEVER any indication that if Alderaan remained intact hundreds of worlds would be annialated. Also, that was not the reasoning that was being used by the Empire. The Empire was using mass murder as an interragation tool, and to sow fear through out the galaxy. The destruction of Alderaan was an unaquivicably evil act. Get over it.

[Enforcer Talen]

mass slaughter has *always* been justifiable. read the history of the 20th century if you want examples. there are stacks of them. it was hoped alderaans death would end the rebellion. it's a very human thing, to use firepower in the hope of something. sometimes it works. sometimes it doesnt. you'll note that the rebellion started a massive civil war that lasted for a decade+, with all the deaths that ensue.

[Enforcer Talen]

on a minor sidenote, is this the same shadowwalker as the one I knew at malena, or just someone with the same name?

[Shadow Walker]

Enforcer, my point is that when the Empire destroyed Alderaan it was on a whim. When Tarkin went to Allderaan, he did so to get Leia to talk. Furthermore, the Imperials seemed to relish the destruction of Alderaan. They wanted to try out thier new toy, and intimidate people. Thier whole government policy is based off intimidation of the population. Any government that advocates terror tactics on its own citizens is pretty evil in my book.
(P.S. I'm a different Shadow Walker from the one you know.)

[Enforcer Talen]

terror tactics on it's own citizens that are in armed rebellion - key difference there, and it's also been done a lot in history, often in civilized nations. if you are declaring war against your government, expect consequences.

and what does sentiment have to do with it? some soldiers in ww2 enjoyed killing. some had nightmares for years. the act is the same, regardless.

[Shadow Walker]

Enforcer, just because a tactic has been used before by nations does not make it right. Also, do we have any evidence that the ENTIRE planet of Alderaan was in armed rebellion? All we really know from the film is that thier senater was a rebel. Another argument against the Empires terror tactics is this: they didn't work. Alderaan became a matyr to the rebellion. Many rebels joined up because of this or other such atrocities.

[Enforcer Talen]

make them right. . . such an odd concept, when applied to nations. I find the traditional values of right and wrong matter little when nations are involved. it is 'evil' to kill people, but every nation since the dawn of time has done it to sustain themselves.

in the eu, it's mentioned that alderaan is the hq of the rebellion, money being sent to the rebellion, military satellites being prepared - leia was quite the adequate represenative. rebel dawn, p21, for example, talks of alderaan providing intelligence, funding, and technical expertise.

funding armed rebellion - terrorism, theft, destruction of imperial property, murder - all those good things is what they were doing. the empire, in the interest of the greater good, as per the job of good governments, dealt with terrorists as is tradition when at war. with overwhelming force.

as per the effectiveness of said 'atrocity' (all war is atrocity, why isolate any one section?), thats a different thread.

[Shadow Walker]

Enforcer, the Empire is not a government concerned with the common good. It was set up by a sith lord who desired power. The Emporer set up his empire for his own personal gain. His supposed motives of setting up the empire to stabalize the galaxy are BS. In fact, he encouraged political back biting, cronyism, and greed in the military and bureacracy. He wanted everyone fighting each other, and this policy led to the Empires downfall. The Empire ultimately collapsed because its comanders were more concerned with personal gain than with the common good of the Empire.

[Enforcer Talen]

he desired power. so what? a lot of people do. its what you do with it that matters.

and, as for backbiting, cronyism and greed - that's true enough of any system. you'll find it in rome, america, moscow, and courscant, because there's always someone who 'seeks the quick and easy path.'

the question is, what did he do with his power? it was a harsh regime, I'll be the first to admit, but it worked. instead of the thousand thousand systems plotting against each other even to the outbreak of war, with the senate helpless to intervene, he built an empire where justice was swift, the stormtroopers and ties were revered and feared, and the system was essentially stable. one galaxy, one currency.

empires, are of course, based around emperors, and he did not name an heir. with that gone, the imperials would of course scramble for power - the rebels had left a power vaccum, and the galactic civil war had begun. if palpatine had named an heir, I dont beleive this would have happened.

[Shadow Walker]

Enforcer, Palipatines regime hardly "worked." He had a galactic rebelion forming almost as soon as he took power. Also, the Emporer instigated the chaos so he could then seize power when the senate was "helpless to intervene."

[Enforcer Talen]

the chaos was there already. he just helped it along.

plz, provide proof it didnt work overall.

[Shadow Walker]

Enforcer, the Empire didn't work because less then two generations after it was formed, it was already in great disarray. The chaos it was supposedly thier to put a stop to was present with full force. They have a civil; war raging on for year after year. They have warlords trying to carve out thier own little empires. The Galactic Empire has fallen. (While the New Republic never really did jack. God they suck )

[Enforcer Talen]

the system didnt work after the touchstone was killed, the generals scattered, and a thousand groups trying to break things up more? *of course* they didnt hold. I mean, really.

while the emperor lived, did the system work? was it stable for the economy and safe for the majority of citizens?

[Shadow Walker]

while the emperor lived, did the system work? was it stable for the economy and safe for the majority of citizens?

Unless you count the various races the Empire enslaved and the massive rebellion they had on thier hands, sure the Empire was a stable and safe place. Also, as far as I can see the Empire really didn't offer any more economic security or safety for its citezens then the Old Republis did.

[Shadow Walker]

while the emperor lived, did the system work?

This is a major flaw of the Empire it's stability is ENTIRELY dependent on one man.

[Vympel]

it was hoped alderaans death would end the rebellion.

That's blatant revisionism that flies in the face of canon:

"Dantooine is too remote to make an effective demonstration..." the purpose behind destroying Alderaan was as a demonstration, not a war-winning gambit.

"This will be a day long remembered. We have seen the end of Kenobi, we shall soon see the end of the Rebellion ..." Vader commenting on the imminent death of Yavin IV.

[DocMoriartty]

evil acts? yes. justified acts? yes.

plague bombs are going to be researched. even if your learning how to take them down, your researching how to make them stronger. a few mistakes, and they get loose. scorching is perfectly reasonable if it gets going, in the interest of the greater good. better one city then the thousands its spreading to.

alderaan no doubt had it's innocents. but it was funding the rebellion which eventually caused billions of deaths at the least, and was a symbol of futher civil war. with the firepower of the day, planets could have been scorched to the ground, and no one would be able to count the corpses. better one planet then the hundreds.

Your not serious are you? If nothing else the Empire is to blame for every death from that plague incident for placing the lab there. The lab could have been in orbit or placed on a planet or moon like our own lacking an atmosphere. Then if there is an accident there is no danger. Instead the Empire went with the simple answer since it found nothing wrong with scortching millions with turbolaser fire to keep an escaping plague from getting too far.

Alderaan was an atrocity no matter how you slice it. At no point in the movie is it proven that the general population supports rebellion. By Leia's own words the planet is pacifist and has no weapons. Furthermore Tarkin destroys the planet on a whim as others have said because it suits his need and like a bully he needs to make an example to keep everyone else in line. At most you can say that the Royal Family that rules Alderaan supports the rebellion but since their title and rank appears to he hereditary that is hardly justification for condemnation of the whole planet.

Or let me put it this way. Lets say you are home one day and while at the dinner table with your parents and siblings your father spouts off that he support Osama Bin Laden. Hell take it one further and say the he says he is even considering sending Osama some money. Does that mean that the US Government is not evil if the FBI breaks down the door a week later and slaughters your entire family in its sleep?

[DocMoriartty]

while the emperor lived, did the system work?

This is a major flaw of the Empire it's stability is ENTIRELY dependent on one man.

Does anyone really think it was a flaw? I saw it as an intent in the design of the system. Palpatine was the type of egomaniac psychopath that probably hoped the entire galaxy would go with him if he died. Imagine him as an evil spoiled three year old. If he couldnt have his toys all to himself then NOBODY was going to have those toys.

[Shadow Walker]

Does anyone really think it was a flaw? I saw it as an intent in the design of the system. Palpatine was the type of egomaniac psychopath that probably hoped the entire galaxy would go with him if he died. Imagine him as an evil spoiled three year old. If he couldnt have his toys all to himself then NOBODY was going to have those toys.

Exactly right Doc. The Empire was there for one purpose: To give the Emporer power; it was Palipatines intire intent.

[Soontir C'boath]

while the emperor lived, did the system work?

This is a major flaw of the Empire it's stability is ENTIRELY dependent on one man.

Same goes for every single imperialist and dictatorship in the world. What are you trying drag out?

Cyaround,
Jason

[Shadow Walker]

Same goes for every single imperialist and dictatorship in the world. What are you trying drag out?

That the Galactic Empire is not the paragon of strength and stability that some make it out to be.