Why the empire is evil...

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2002-08-23 03:00pm

Is the Empire evil? Hmm, that begs to question the word, "evil." Evil as defined by who's set of standards ... based on what? If the "greater good" is served by acts that others might consider "evil," then are those acts really evil?

In the case of the Empire, galactic order is the greater good, and so all efforts focus on keeping that order in tact. In the Imperial train of thought, the Rebels are agents of chaos and disorder, murdering agents of authority out of hand. So then, can not the Rebels be defined as, "evil" from that perspective?

In the end, is not all morality (definitions of "good" and "evil") subjective to the whim of the majority or at least those who hold power at a particular time? At least in the SW universe, how can it be otherwise?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2002-08-29 01:37am

Well, if you want to take GL's view of the Galactic Empire the answer is that it is evil. In fact, in the opening scene of Star Wars ANH, GL called the Empire the "EVIL" Galatic Empire. The complete destruction of Alderaan is another obvious example that the Empire was evil. Did it have some good aspects? Sure it did, but so did Hitler and Stalin...

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2002-08-29 03:11am

Don't forget the Empire is racist, xenophobic, and sexist as well.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2002-08-29 07:11am

But then he was a Rebel agent, so I guess it could be argued he was an enemy combatant (though his treatment wouldn't pass the test of something like the Geneva Convention of course).

Geneva Conventions? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! The Geneva Conventions would specifically condone the execution of Leia, Han, Chewie, and any other rebel schmuck captured in a combat zone out of uniform without any sort of trial. The Geneva conventions are the sort of idiocy that only a bunch
of well-meaning people can produce, and are full of loopholes. Just to name one example, the use of .50 caliber machine guns on enemy troops is prohibited, but targetting their equipment is fine, and their belt buckles qualify as equipment.
Besides which, the entire Rebel Alliance is composed of ruthless terrorists, likable terrorists with some principles in a few cases, but terrorists even so.

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2002-08-29 03:58pm

Why are the Rebels considered terrorists when they were never seen to harm any civilian targets and only military targets, while the Empire killed civilians galore on Alderaan and Tatooine? If anyone is a terrorist organization, it's the Empire. Hell, they even designed their weapons to cause fear and terror among their opposition. Example: AT-ATs, Death Stars, ISD, SSD

Morte · Post by **Morte** » 2002-08-30 04:04am

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:Why are the Rebels considered terrorists when they were never seen to harm any civilian targets and only military targets, while the Empire killed civilians galore on Alderaan and Tatooine? If anyone is a terrorist organization, it's the Empire. Hell, they even designed their weapons to cause fear and terror among their opposition. Example: AT-ATs, Death Stars, ISD, SSD

Am I seeing parallels with modern day society? Perhaps I would if I were an Iraqi. (Note - not an invatation for flames).

I don't think you can answer the question of if the Empire is evil. Evil is an extremely subjective concept. If you want an answer then accept what George is telling you - "the evil GALACTIC EMPIRE."

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2002-08-30 12:35pm

Definition of terrorism:

"The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons."

By that definition the Rebels aren't terrorists. I assume people and property is referring to civilians and non-military property. You don't see Rebels attacking civilians or destroying civilian property to intimidate and coerce the Empire. They attack Imperial military targets only. Notice how in every movie they are never the first ones to attack or threaten the Empire. The Tantive IV was escaping an ISD. The Rebels went to destroy the DS because it was about to blow up their base. The Rebels attacked the Empire on Hoth because the Imperials were invading. The purpose of the Battle of Endor was to blow up the DS that threatened their very existence.

Morte · Post by **Morte** » 2002-08-31 04:32am

Screw dictionary definitions. Terrorism means whatever you want it to mean, it's merely a way of labelling groups that makes those groups sound evil. I have no doubt that the Empire would call the Rebels terrorists.

Anybody that defies any government these days is labelled a terrorist, whether their cause is just or not. Don't misinterpret what I'm saying... most of the groups labelled as terrorists are just that, but I would guess that some may not be.

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2002-08-31 05:33am

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:Definition of terrorism:

"The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons."

By that definition the Rebels aren't terrorists. I assume people and property is referring to civilians and non-military property. You don't see Rebels attacking civilians or destroying civilian property to intimidate and coerce the Empire. They attack Imperial military targets only. Notice how in every movie they are never the first ones to attack or threaten the Empire. The Tantive IV was escaping an ISD. The Rebels went to destroy the DS because it was about to blow up their base. The Rebels attacked the Empire on Hoth because the Imperials were invading. The purpose of the Battle of Endor was to blow up the DS that threatened their very existence.

"The unlawful use or threatened use of force"

Technically, the Empire is/was the lawful government of the Star Wars galaxy. Also, just because they were (appearing to) only attacking military targets doesn't necessarily make them less of a terrorist organisation. Hell, if the Rebels for example hit the Empire controlled bacta cartel, who do you think the effects of the lost bacta will hit?
And how can you imply that the Rebels never initiate combat first? Guerrilla warfare is the only way the Rebels can gain an upperhand against the Empire, and that style of warfare is pretty much limited to first-strikes (all examples of getting and moving the Death Star plans, IIRC, involved hitting Imperial installations).

Magashi · Post by **Magashi** » 2002-09-14 04:28pm

I find that I have to agree wtih Morte. George Lucas did call them evil. So that would have to be the answer to the specific wording of the question that started off this thread.

However, the idea of using the slaughtered jawas as an example of how evil and stupid the Empire is bugs me a bit. The Empire appears to have it together when it comes to torture. And I would like to point out that shortly after the destruction of the Sand-Crawler (which they took the time to make it look like an accident) the Storm Troopers rushed over to meet up with Uncle Owen's moisture farm. They needed to get those droids back, because they had found out that the plans for the Death Star were not on the Princess's ship. The droids had given them the slip yet again, so they decided that they just didn't have the time to take to cover their tracks. They had to hurry up and find those droids if the safety of the Empire and its technological secrets were to remain safe. Least ways, thats the interpretation I got from all of that.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-07 05:10am

Suffice to say (as I stated in another thread), the Empire's use of violence was excessive and rather.. random.

Destroying Alderaan was unnecessary, if the point was to extract information from Princess Leia, or to test the Death Star's power, or to weed out dissidents on the planet's surface, and excessively cruel to the (don't tell me that all the billions were guilty, every single man woman and child) loyal population.

If killing a few billion (or more) people at random isn't "evil" I don't know what is.

Killing Luke's aunt and uncle, and massacring the Jawas were just further symptoms of the bigger problem: the evil empire. If this is the way they conduct business it's no surprise they have problems with rebels, and we end up rooting for them (the rebels)!

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-07 05:14am

One last thing...

AOTC revealed to us that the Death Star existed as a concept long before the Empire came to power. Yet, it was constructed as a terror weapon, as far as we know. So the entire mission to suppress knowledge of the Death Star plans would not have even existed had the Empire not taken the first step and threatened its citizens with the horrendous device.

For all we know, rumors of the Death Star's construction is what started the Rebellion in the first place! But that's just a theory, probably wrong.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-01-07 05:14am

Look I indulge in my latent totalitarian militaristic tendencies as much as the next Empire fan but really, to assert that it's not evil is absolutely absurd. I can't believe these poll results.

Destruction of Alderaan. Nuff said. It was genocide, mass slaughter, and was performed to provide 'an effective demonstration' (with the added bonus of making Leia talk) to cow the galaxy into fear and obedience.

Magashi · Post by **Magashi** » 2003-01-07 07:47am

Correct me if I am wrong about Alderan here, but wasn't it one of the biggest supporters of the rebellion? Princess Leah came from there, and seemed to be pretty high on the pecking order of things. Just putting some thought towards that, maybe Vader sensed the rebelliousness on the planets surface. Or maybe they had information in advance and were testing the princess to see if she would cooperate or not.

I know its more conjecture, but Alderaan sort of bothers me in that there had to be some more purpose to it than the randomness it would make one guess. It isn't like they went around blowing up planets for shits and giggles as often as purely random destruction would allow.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-01-07 08:06am

Magashi wrote:Correct me if I am wrong about Alderan here, but wasn't it one of the biggest supporters of the rebellion? Princess Leah

Leia.

came from there, and seemed to be pretty high on the pecking order of things. Just putting some thought towards that, maybe Vader sensed the rebelliousness on the planets surface. Or maybe they had information in advance and were testing the princess to see if she would cooperate or not.

Simply because there are elements of resistance of a planet does not justify it's total destruction along with all inhabitants. It's genocide.

I know its more conjecture, but Alderaan sort of bothers me in that there had to be some more purpose to it than the randomness it would make one guess. It isn't like they went around blowing up planets for shits and giggles as often as purely random destruction would allow.

Tarkin gave the reason: "Dantooine is too remote to make an effective demonstration". Tarkin rocked up to Alderaan with the express intent of destroying it to demonstrate it's power and thus cause fear of the Empire, no matter what Leia said or did.

Boba Fett · Post by **Boba Fett** » 2003-01-07 09:07am

Don't talk about the Empire like it has a true government.

It was Palpatine's dictatorship.

He only "employed" persons like Tarkin because he couldn't handle the whole universe alone.

Dictatorship=Evil (as we all know it)

Dictatorship=Total control of individuals by force=Fear of authorities=Total order

Without Palpy's New Order there wouldn't be Empire.

It would be still Republic.

So if the New Order is linked with the Empire than the Empire is evil.

(I still like it though...

)

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2003-01-07 10:41am

Vympel wrote:Look I indulge in my latent totalitarian militaristic tendencies as much as the next Empire fan but really, to assert that it's not evil is absolutely absurd. I can't believe these poll results.

Destruction of Alderaan. Nuff said. It was genocide, mass slaughter, and was performed to provide 'an effective demonstration' (with the added bonus of making Leia talk) to cow the galaxy into fear and obedience.

Guess I'm the next Empire fan then

.

Bug-Eyed Earl · Post by **Bug-Eyed Earl** » 2003-01-09 05:21am

The Empire is evil in the sense that the Third Reich was, in that many of the individuals serving in it were not truly evil men, just following orders after getting caught up in the mind-set.

George Lucas says the Empire is evil, but he doesn't show us why except for Alderaan. Which should be enough, but on this board, it's not. There are a lot of people saying that given the scale of Star Wars, a few billion is not such a bad thing. But that attitude is part of what makes the Empire evil, and I sure as hell hope that if humanity ever beats the odds and expands to other planets that such an attitude never develops. You could argue that they were sympathizers and supporters of the Rebellion- but the act of wiping out millions of people in that way without anything resembling a trial holding its leaders accountable (holding a nation's leaders opinions as representing that of an entire nation or world is also grossly unfair) is abominable. Really, there had to be at least a billion people on that planet if you go by the simple fact that a few billion people can't all have the same opinion about anything- are those people deserving of the fate that befell them?

Would you think the Empire isn't evil even if you had family on Alderaan?

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-01-09 05:47am

Bug-Eyed Earl wrote:The Empire is evil in the sense that the Third Reich was, in that many of the individuals serving in it were not truly evil men, just following orders after getting caught up in the mind-set.

George Lucas says the Empire is evil, but he doesn't show us why except for Alderaan. Which should be enough, but on this board, it's not. There are a lot of people saying that given the scale of Star Wars, a few billion is not such a bad thing. But that attitude is part of what makes the Empire evil, and I sure as hell hope that if humanity ever beats the odds and expands to other planets that such an attitude never develops. You could argue that they were sympathizers and supporters of the Rebellion- but the act of wiping out millions of people in that way without anything resembling a trial holding its leaders accountable (holding a nation's leaders opinions as representing that of an entire nation or world is also grossly unfair) is abominable. Really, there had to be at least a billion people on that planet if you go by the simple fact that a few billion people can't all have the same opinion about anything- are those people deserving of the fate that befell them?

Would you think the Empire isn't evil even if you had family on Alderaan?

The entire reasoning is ridiculous. It's like saying that if the US government authorized the nuking of a small town in fuck I don't know Montana it wasn't evil because there were a few anti-government militia types there and there are plenty of other towns.

It's amazing- the Empire is evil. This is not rocket science.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-09 06:43am

The Empire did other evil things besides the destruction of Alderaan, although we don't really see any of them (lots of massacres, BDZ's, prison planets, Galaxy Gun, World Devestators, Sun Crusher, etc) in the pure canon except for the murder of Luke's aunt and uncle, and the massacre of the Jawas.

The whole "Imperial attrocities/meanness" is pretty much absent from the trilogy after ANH (note how the Empire is portrayed as being nasty in the "Star Wars Holiday Special" for example, which was made like a year after ANH).

If you ignore ANH, the Holiday Special, and the EU, the Empire doesn't seem that bad, just ruthless in war, which isn't necessarily evil per se. But its kind hard to ignore all that other stuff. ; )

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-09 06:45am

Then again, I take that back, the Empire's treatment of Lando in ESB was pretty lousy, but you could always pass it off by saying they were dealing with an ex-con (was he ever caught for any of his crimes?) and the greater good was to capture spies and terrorists (the rebels).

They also tortured Han for no reason ("they didn't even ask me any questions") and Chewie as well (the sonic chamber he was locked in with Threepio).

At least when they tortured Leia, it was to get information about her spying activities. ; p

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-01-09 06:56am

Kurgan wrote:
If you ignore ANH, the Holiday Special, and the EU, the Empire doesn't seem that bad, just ruthless in war, which isn't necessarily evil per se. But its kind hard to ignore all that other stuff. ; )

LOL. The Empire is evil as long as you ignore canon, official material, and the biggest atrocity to ever come out of Star Wars (Holiday Special).

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-01-09 06:56am

Shit. Replace is with isn't.

Shadow Walker · Post by **Shadow Walker** » 2003-01-20 02:04pm

The Empire is evil. They build superweapons for use against thier own populace, and advocate rule by fear. Their leaders are also nothing better than tyrants. For those of you who say the Empire was a neccasary stabalizing force, why, once it's Emporer died did his commanders all start fighting each other in petty power struggles? That sounds real stable to me.

Darktrayn · Post by **Darktrayn** » 2003-01-20 04:35pm

The leaders of the Empire are power-fanatics and will do whatever it takes to maintain control. There is little freedom under its rule, and fear is what holds its people to obedience. The Empire does not negotiate or feel compation for those who suggest against it.

-Mass murder of innocents and critics of the Empire.

-Trial with no appeal. (btw, torture is deemed a neccessary method to extract truth)

-Enslavement and removal of rights to non-human species.

-Forced labor among convicts, of which many die.

-Forced military service.

This is all acceptable under the Empire. Whether this is "evil" to you or a neccessary means of control is up to you.

Also, I'm fairly sure that as the Emperor places those that share his viewpoints of "control by fear" in positions of military and government power, he also has a system set it place to identify and "raise" potential officers and politions into this doctrine. Correct me if I'm mistaken.

And yes, the majority of the servents of the Empire aren't "evil" but the New Order certainly shows some characteristics.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Why the empire is evil...

Do you think the Empire is evil?

Evil is as Evil Does.

hmm....

Re: hmm....