Why the empire is evil...

[consequences]

Note that luke didn't transmit a warning to the death star, even after firing the torpedos, and he likely could have saved many lives by doing so.
Also take a look at the Endor Holocaust Scenario, and ask yourself if the Rebel Alliance is any better than the Empire.

[Talon Karrde]

I find your definition odd. I believe a "good" government is one that can protect it's citizens. Whether that be from forgien invaders or from each other. Consider the alternative to the Empire, the Old Republic. Weak, inefficient, couldn't even protect it's own citizens against the trade federation, buericratic to the point of uselessness, it could preform none of the duties governments are created to do. In short, it reminds me of the UN.

Your assumption is your problem though. You assume the Empire was better because it could the people, and the Republic couldn't. The Republic couldn't because they had no navy and military and were not ready to face a crisis such as the Clone Wars. A government's only responsibility in my mind is to keep and maintain the safety of the people, this includes the police, fire rescue, ambulance and of course the Armed Forces. THIS IS ALL A GOVERNMENT SHOULD DEAL WITH, not our personal well-being.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

if you wish to argue the empire's morality, look at it's civilians. do they live in fear, or can they pursue life liberty and happiness? the u.s. has been horrifying brutal to it's enemies, but is regarded as 'good' because of how it treats it's populace.

Agree with you. Actually I've created a thread "What it was like to be Imperial Citizen?" (in "Pure Star Wars", but I guess it has moved to Page 2... ) asking such question.

Unfortunately, we don't get much chance to see the everyday life of ordinary Imperial Citizen in the movies, while most EU sources are heavily biased against the Empire. So the real question is: do we have adequate source to objectively describe the life of Imperial Citizen?

[Guardsman Bass]

The Empire was a dictatorship like any other. I wouldn't necessarily call it evil. It seemed to me that it was a powerful(but not necessarily evil) government used for evil ends, such as the annhilation of Alderaan( not during a time of war, plus the fact that Alderaan was one of their more prominent worlds.).

Although the Empire appeared to solve the problems that the Old Republic had, I would say that it was merely a facade. Without the iron will and incredible power of the Emperor and his enforcer, Darth Vader, the Empire collapsed into bickering warlords and factions easily. Although not to as much an extant, the Empire still suffered from strong regionalism, an problem not helped by the giving of total military and political power over sectors and regions to Moths by the Emperor. Example: Tarkin. What he did to Alderaan would be equivalent to Colin Powell nuking the capital of Libya without Presidential permission in an attempt to extort terrorist information from Qaddafi. Only Alderaan would be worse; it would almost be more like nuking Paris.

[Darth Yoshi]

Note that luke didn't transmit a warning to the death star, even after firing the torpedos, and he likely could have saved many lives by doing so.
Also take a look at the Endor Holocaust Scenario, and ask yourself if the Rebel Alliance is any better than the Empire.

Luke's equipment couldn't broadcast through the entire station. Plus, I don't think Luke would have been able to break the encrypts. Also, factor in that the Death Star was supposed be invincible. If you were on an invincible ship and someone told you it would blow, would you believe him?

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

The Empire was a dictatorship like any other. I wouldn't necessarily call it evil. It seemed to me that it was a powerful(but not necessarily evil) government used for evil ends, such as the annhilation of Alderaan( not during a time of war, plus the fact that Alderaan was one of their more prominent worlds.).

I don't think the Empire is used for evil ends. Alderaan was destroyed during wartime (It was a time of civil war).

BTW, I've got this thought last night: the Emperor maybe "evil" (because he was a Sith, then he must be evil by Jedi's standard), but I don't think the Empire must be evil too. I mean, suppose the US have a Satan-Worshipping President, I think it doesn't necessarily mean that the US will terrorize or oppress its people.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

I mean, if the ruler is "evil" by certain standard, it doesn't necessarily means that the government must act "evil" to the people.

[Lord of the Farce]

As others have brought up before, perhaps Emperor Palpatine had a more important goal than mere galactic domination and power? We know for one that Palpy had been planning to topple the Old Republic for a long, long time, and that he had Force given ability to see well into the future. Now what if he had saw far enough into the future to see the coming of the Yuuzhan Vong, and knew that the OR with all of it's internal conflicts and political power grabbing that it would be unable to deal with a real threat with any focused authority (eg. just like the NR), so he seeked to reform the OR into a government that can deal with such a threat? That his super weapons were all focused towards this goal?

Anyway, just my rant for the day, LOL

[Guardsman Bass]

If thats the case, then Palpatine obviously didn't plan well enough. He left himself highly vulnerable, and he did not solve the problems of regionalism that plagued the Old Republic.

[Lord_Vader]

I have to agree with the people that regard the Empire as not necessarily evil. Civil war for one thing...has anybody complained about what Grant did when he invaded the South during the US Civil War? Grant carved a path of utter destruction..a 'scorched earth' policy if you will. Yet...people dont see that as 'evil' becuz the South was trying to secede away from the Union and wanted slavery to continue etc...But I mean come on people...you cant shade or blend different colors of right or wrong only becuz the timing or the reason for the 'evil' event was for a good purpose. If we apply a strict code of classifying stuff as evil such as mass slaughter...well then you have to include a lot of things as well. Bombings of Dresden, Hiroshima, nagasaki for example. Majority of opinion regards these acts as 'justifiable' but if we are gonna sit back and say that the destruction of Alderaan was 'evil' then we must also admit for example that Grant's destruction throughout the South was 'evil' as well...including the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I have to agree with the people that say evil is judged in the eye of the beholder. We can classify evil acts like randomly going outside and shooting someone...that is evil...there was no logical reason for that behavior. Or killing your newborn baby for crying too loud...that is evil. I think we can agree on that.


As far as trying to rationalize events committed by a government...well many people will say for example that bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki was pointless...deaths of so many people was wasted effort. But, one has to remember that it was war-time, moral acts and codes get distorted in war, can one say for sure that the Japanese were in fact going to surrender soon? What if Americans did have to invade...many civilians committed suicide as a result of the occupation of Okinawa...so how many more civilian deaths would have resulted from an invasion of the homeland Honshu island of Japan? Cant say can we. The waters are murky.

The Rebellion in SW was started by ex-Senators that is how the rebellion came into being. Nothing was getting done in the OR. I love it when people automatically assume dictatorships are bad...need I point to history to illustrate various Empires that brought a huge amount of peace and prosperity. Roman Empire definitely one that comes to mind. Matter of fact the Roman Senate kind of reminds of the OR. Romans lived under a dictatorship and so did a lot of others. Yet, many credit the Romans with ushering in Pax Romana and linking Europe etc...but has anyone looked at what the Romans did to the Carthaginians? When they finally destroyed the Carthaginians they salted the earth where the city used to be and sold the population into slavery. It seems that people have overlooked that fact since it was during the Punic Wars. Anyway my point being that its hard to judge something as evil.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

Does anyone actually know why Dresden was bombed? I looked for Dresden sites, but all I came up with were sites that were in German...

[Patrick Degan]

The Empire as a concept isn't evil. Palpatine was mad, insane, and his powerlust created an Imperial government which collectively was evil, however. It was also one doomed to fall.

Some posters on this thread have reached for comparisons with the Roman Empire and earlier Roman Republic. The difference between Empire and Republic is often pointed to, but in reality, the differences were minor. The Republic and Empire both had a senate whose members inherited the office or were appointed. Both had the system of tribunes and the courts, and both adhered to the Twelve Tablets of the Law. All the Empire did was to replace the executive power of two elected counsels and the wartime elected dictator with a permanent emperor, who for all his titles and deifications actually had about the same powers as a modern U.S. president. Even the very mad Caligula never disbanded the senate (although he did have several senators executed and appointed his horse to the chamber). For all the focus we pay in the modern day to the emperors, Rome remained a nation of laws for the most part and chugged along with its imperial system for a good four hundred years.

Had Palpatine operated according to the Roman pattern, the Empire might have attained permanent rule over the whole of their galaxy. He did retain the senate for a time, but then his powerlust and madness led him to attempt to seize personal control of the galaxy's trillions by dissolving the council and exercising control through his appointed military governors. Palpatine set aside the law entirely to rule by tyrannical force majeur. At that point, Palpatine became a threat to civilised order and thus an illegitimate ruler by any definition.

In relative terms, was the Empire evil and the Old Republic good? The Old Republic, as we have seen in Episodes 1 and 2, was based upon a government which was a rather ramshackle affair; a weak central government which was unable to effectively enforce the galactic constitution or protect the rights and privileges of the citizenry. It did not ensure democratic government for any of its member worlds and allowed the unchecked growth of corporate power to a level where corporations were able to secure senatorial representation equal to any planet in the Republic. It was a system in which corruption flourished and there was no mechanism in place to counter it. The Republic could not even effectively enforce its legitimacy as the governing body by asserting its supremacy over member worlds to prevent them from seceeding and thus avert the chaos of civil war. It turned a blind eye to slavery and gangsterism in the outer rim territories, and weakened its tenuous authority to police the galaxy by having long ago surrendered all such authority to the independent Jedi Council, which was able to operate above the Republic's laws.

There may have been a time in the history of the SW galaxy when there was little to no practical alternative to this system. But in an age of fast galactic travel and FTL holonet communication, it was the worst conceivable base for a unified civilisation because the government could not support the unity. It took a unanimous vote in the senate, for example, to finally create a galactic army and extend emergency executive powers to enable the Supreme Chancellor to act, and no constitutional checks on those emergency war powers either. And this was after a secession of thousands of worlds had already been in force for months if not several years and civil war was already eating away at the foundations of the galactic civilisation. The Old Republic, in short, was irretrievably doomed, having been rotting away for generations. The degeneration of the Old Republic opened the way for chaos and war, and thus opened the way for the evils attendant upon the collapse of any civilisation.

The Empire potentially could have solved many of these defects, provided a considerably more stable basis for a unified galactic civilisation and a much stronger mechanism for enforcing law and protecting the rights of the citizenry. It did evidently eliminate the slave trade in the outer rim territories (or at the least drove it deeply underground), reduced corporate power, and dethroned the criminal fiefdoms which held de facto power over the worlds of the Outer Rim. But Palpatine destroyed the future by destroying the law. Thus, Palpatine brought disorder and opened the way not only for civil war but the schism which divided the galaxy and left it vulnerable for the future invasion of the Yuzaan Vong —which the weak and corrupt New Republic was inadequate to prevent. Thus, Palpatine opened the way for the evils under which his galaxy suffers at present. Had he won the civil war, the system he created to facilitate his direct rule of the galaxy would not have survived his own death, and without any mechanism of orderly succession, the inevitable warfare between Moffs attempting to seat themselves upon the imperial throne would have torn the galaxy apart.

The Jedi Council are touted as good, by virtue of their adherence to the Light Side of the Force. But their centuries-long effort to deny and suppress entirely the Dark Side even as a concept created the very imbalance which drove the eventual disintegration of the Old Republic. Thus it can be said that in their attempt to enforce good, they brought evil to the galaxy as much as the Sith and Palpatine did. Perhaps more so since, in a sense, they helped create Palpatine into the being he turned out to be.

Everything is relative. Everything. And relativity does not loan itself to convenient black-and-white labels.

[Enforcer Talen]

I have to agree with the people that regard the Empire as not necessarily evil. Civil war for one thing...has anybody complained about what Grant did when he invaded the South during the US Civil War? Grant carved a path of utter destruction..a 'scorched earth' policy if you will. Yet...people dont see that as 'evil' becuz the South was trying to secede away from the Union and wanted slavery to continue etc...But I mean come on people...you cant shade or blend different colors of right or wrong only becuz the timing or the reason for the 'evil' event was for a good purpose. If we apply a strict code of classifying stuff as evil such as mass slaughter...well then you have to include a lot of things as well. Bombings of Dresden, Hiroshima, nagasaki for example. Majority of opinion regards these acts as 'justifiable' but if we are gonna sit back and say that the destruction of Alderaan was 'evil' then we must also admit for example that Grant's destruction throughout the South was 'evil' as well...including the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I have to agree with the people that say evil is judged in the eye of the beholder. We can classify evil acts like randomly going outside and shooting someone...that is evil...there was no logical reason for that behavior. Or killing your newborn baby for crying too loud...that is evil. I think we can agree on that.


As far as trying to rationalize events committed by a government...well many people will say for example that bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki was pointless...deaths of so many people was wasted effort. But, one has to remember that it was war-time, moral acts and codes get distorted in war, can one say for sure that the Japanese were in fact going to surrender soon? What if Americans did have to invade...many civilians committed suicide as a result of the occupation of Okinawa...so how many more civilian deaths would have resulted from an invasion of the homeland Honshu island of Japan? Cant say can we. The waters are murky.

The Rebellion in SW was started by ex-Senators that is how the rebellion came into being. Nothing was getting done in the OR. I love it when people automatically assume dictatorships are bad...need I point to history to illustrate various Empires that brought a huge amount of peace and prosperity. Roman Empire definitely one that comes to mind. Matter of fact the Roman Senate kind of reminds of the OR. Romans lived under a dictatorship and so did a lot of others. Yet, many credit the Romans with ushering in Pax Romana and linking Europe etc...but has anyone looked at what the Romans did to the Carthaginians? When they finally destroyed the Carthaginians they salted the earth where the city used to be and sold the population into slavery. It seems that people have overlooked that fact since it was during the Punic Wars. Anyway my point being that its hard to judge something as evil.

course, sherman for the most part burnt feilds and wrecked railroads, he didn;'t mass execute civilians. alderaan had lots of civilians blasted into space. course, they were rebels, so it was ok. heh.

and, dresden was said not to be a military target because of the low number of factories there, but it was a city, and a division in a city can make attackers pay rivers of blood to advance. stalingrad, for example. so it was torched so it could not be used by the enemy - as well, I remember reading it was a rail center, but don't know that for sure.

[NecronLord]

It should be remembered that Japan was attempting to open peace negotiations BEFORE the Bombs were dropped, their real purpose was in fact the threaten the USSR.

Also the Roman empires tearing down of carthenge and selling the Population into slavery was the standard MO of the time.

[Patrick Degan]

It should be remembered that Japan was attempting to open peace negotiations BEFORE the Bombs were dropped, their real purpose was in fact the threaten the USSR.

While that was part of the purpose for using the bomb, the primary object was still to terrify the Japanese into unconditional surrender and thus avoid the ground invasion which was already in the logistical preparation stages.

Also the Roman empire's tearing down of carthenge and selling the Population into slavery was the standard MO of the time.

Actually, it was the Roman Republic which destroyed Carthage. The Punic Wars predated the First Triumvirate of Marcus Licinius Crassus and the dictatorship of Gaius Julius Caeser by 150 years. The utter extirpation of Carthage was a little bit beyond the standard practise of that time in history (warfare was beginning to become just a bit more civilised) but not wholly outside the usages of war as they were understood then.

[Kurgan]

We, the omniscient viewers of the SW films KNOW that Emperor Palpatine is evil. Why?

He lies, he cheats, he betrays people who trust him. He has people who stand in his way killed (or attempts to), all in the name of achieving power for himself over others.

Now even if we assume that we don't know that the Empire is evil, let's take a look at what they do to their "loyal" subjects.

1) The Destruction of Alderaan.

Now we could say that perhaps, in some EU-inspired source, that the planet Alderaan is rich, and is full of spies and people funding the Rebellion against the Empire. But are we supposed to believe that this planet (of billions, or perhaps even more inhabitants, since it appears to be earthlike, and a planet like Coruscant is supposed to have many trillions of inhabitants) is really full of guilty persons?

The purpose of blowing up the planet was to scare Princess Leia into revealing her Rebel friends, but more importantly to test and demonstrate the power of the Death Star in its primary role as a weapon of terror.

Now, most of the people on the planet were probably loyal Imperial citizens, who simply were in the wrong place at the wrong time. They weren't enemy combatants, since the Death Star attacked THEM. Notice that Leia says "we have no weapons" and I am inclined to believe her. Sure they had a planetary shield, but did you notice any fleet come out to meet the Death Star when it sat in orbit in front of the planet? No attempts were made to attack whatsoever. You'd think any self-respecting planet would at least keep a few ships in orbit to prevent an attack.

So the Imperials were cowardly and attacked an unprotected planet, killing billions, just to take out a few potential spies and scare their citizens.

2) The slaughter of the Jawas.

Notice that the Empire seems to have no problem with looking the other way while crimelords like Jabba the Hutt handle all sorts of corruption and shenanigans under their noses. We don't see Imperial crackdowns on Tusken Raiders. Yet suddenly Jawas are a threat to the Empire? Clearly the Jawas were no match for Imperial troops in the desert of tatooine.

What do Jawas do? Steal droids and sell them? Maybe they're technically breaking the law (we assume stealing droids is illegal in the Empire) but surely there are far more deserving criminal groups out there. In the EU we have the Empire actively working with groups like Black Sun, so I'm inclined to think their being "disloyal" isn't the reason they were killed. It was of course to get the droids, so why kill them? Did they resist arrest? Did they not want people to know they were looking for the Rebels stolen data tapes (containing the plans to the Death Star)?

Also interesting that the Empire bothered to try to "cover up" the massacre... perhaps their reputation as upholders of justice on a backwater planet like Tatooine IS important. Perhaps Jawas do hold some kind of position in that planet's society. Or perhaps Imperial troops are poorly entrenched and fear retaliation. We don't know what kind of relations the Jawas have with the Sandpeople (in the early novels, there was an implication that they may have been closely related)? The Sandpeople, we know, are notorious for being fierce warriors and incredibly resilient in their harsh environment (somewhat like the Fremen in the Dune novels).

3) The killing of Luke's aunt and uncle.

From the little we saw in the movies, Owen and Beru were good Imperial citizens. Sure Owen kept Luke out of the Academy, but it was supposedly because of his own financial difficulties, not because of any hatred of the Empire. Owen actively opposed his brother's (note: canon examples in the prequel films may rule out the familial ties of Owen and Obi-Wan Kenobi even though those were laid out in the first ANH novel) ideas. He didn't want to "get involved" and pretty much espoused anti-Rebellion/Jedi sentiments. He called Ben an "old wizard."

Now sure, we could speculate that Owen and Beru were really grooming Luke as a Rebel Agent/Jedi, and all that rhetoric was just a cover, but I think it seems unlikely. The movie leads us to believe that Owen's stubborn moral cowardice was holding Luke back from his "destiny." Perhaps he wanted to protect the bow from the Evil Empire, knowing it would get him killed to go on some "Damn fool idealistic crusade like his father." I think that if anything, Owen and Beru were anti-Rebellion, not pro. Yet they were killed simply because of guilt by association. The Imps don't even bother trying to cover up their attack on the Tatooine homestead. They have no evidence that Owen and Beru stole the droids or knew where they went. Clearly the investigation was badly botched and the Troopers thought that leaving a trail of carnage was the best way to find a missing robot.

If the Empire was honest, they would have placed the Jawas, Luke's aunt and Uncle and eventually Luke himself, into custody, and charged them with suspicion of crimes against the Empire for stealing Imperial property, not kill them and haphazardly try to make it look like an accident.

Anyhow, due to story-line and plot development, the Imperial atrocities are set aside in the latter movies in favor of the larger issues. We can attribute most of the Imperial actions in later movies as the necessary consequences of war (they kill enemy combatants in battle). Though there is one other incident....

Vader's "deal" with Lando Calrissian. Supposedly this smuggler has gone legit, but he's being forced into a deal where he has to not only betray a friend, but risks having an Imperial garrison left to control his business. His only sin was to be associated (in the past) with Han Solo, who happened to be aiding the Rebels. So again, the Empire strong-arms somebody to get at somebody else. Unnecessary cruelty follows with the torture of Han Solo (they didn't even ask him any questions) and testing the carbon freezing process on him without his consent. But then he was a Rebel agent, so I guess it could be argued he was an enemy combatant (though his treatment wouldn't pass the test of something like the Geneva Convention of course).

It's interesting to note that in the (horrendous) "Star Wars Holiday Special" we have more incidents of Imperial (attempted) attrocities and harassment of citizens. But we see little of that in the other two movies.

Still, I think that you have to admit that those examples of Imperial brutality are reason enough to think that they are "evil" even if you don't know that Palpatine is one nasty mofo or the under-handed way in which he rose to power.

Sure, you can argue that perhaps many modern governments, despite their rhetoric are evil for similar reasons, but my argument is just against the Empire in SW. Draw your own conclusions.... ; )

[David]

I warn you now Kurgan, I will tolerate no futher mention of the Holiday Special. There was nothing "special" about that abomination. You have been warned.



BTW, you got post 6000 on the PSW forum.

[Mr Bean]

Now, most of the people on the planet were probably loyal Imperial citizens, who simply were in the wrong place at the wrong time. They weren't enemy combatants, since the Death Star attacked THEM. Notice that Leia says "we have no weapons" and I am inclined to believe her. Sure they had a planetary shield, but did you notice any fleet come out to meet the Death Star when it sat in orbit in front of the planet? No attempts were made to attack whatsoever. You'd think any self-respecting planet would at least keep a few ships in orbit to prevent an attack.

So the Imperials were cowardly and attacked an unprotected planet, killing billions, just to take out a few potential spies and scare their citizens.

Its not EU we know that few if any Aldrenians ever left the planet except in support of the Rebelion, Lucus himself said he pictured it as one of the few places Rebels could walk around freely because the Goverment there was so peace loving they would not give a damn if Hitler walked the streets as long as he did not mess up the bushs. Second Aldrean from the begining opposed Papy(Look at the Special Edition Interviews its part of the Back-story he wrote for SW 4,5,6 and likely will be show in Epsoide 3

Notice that the Empire seems to have no problem with looking the other way while crimelords like Jabba the Hutt handle all sorts of corruption and shenanigans under their noses. We don't see Imperial crackdowns on Tusken Raiders. Yet suddenly Jawas are a threat to the Empire? Clearly the Jawas were no match for Imperial troops in the desert of tatooine.

What do Jawas do? Steal droids and sell them? Maybe they're technically breaking the law (we assume stealing droids is illegal in the Empire) but surely there are far more deserving criminal groups out there. In the EU we have the Empire actively working with groups like Black Sun, so I'm inclined to think their being "disloyal" isn't the reason they were killed. It was of course to get the droids, so why kill them? Did they resist arrest? Did they not want people to know they were looking for the Rebels stolen data tapes (containing the plans to the Death Star)?

Also interesting that the Empire bothered to try to "cover up" the massacre... perhaps their reputation as upholders of justice on a backwater planet like Tatooine IS important. Perhaps Jawas do hold some kind of position in that planet's society. Or perhaps Imperial troops are poorly entrenched and fear retaliation. We don't know what kind of relations the Jawas have with the Sandpeople (in the early novels, there was an implication that they may have been closely related)? The Sandpeople, we know, are notorious for being fierce warriors and incredibly resilient in their harsh environment (somewhat like the Fremen in the Dune novels).

If you notice this was a states secret problem, Tell me if today in the US we told the Popluation that Saddum Hussain now had six twenty Mega-ton Nukes he stole from the US what do you think the avarage reaction would be?(The correct Answear is Oh shit followed by mass panic, Generaly a thing you, you know TRY AND AVOID)
Remeber Papy does not think that the Rebels are anything but cowards and everyone always assume that the Death Star Planes where just gotten because they where looking for a weakness

What if there REAL plan(Being Terriorsts after all) had been to steal the planes build a smaller, Super-laser only version(Ala Darksaber) and start blowing up planets?
The matter at hand was a issue of galatic secruity, For them to be panicy and trigger happy I don't blame them

(Remeber the Second Death Star was painted by Papys PR people as a Rebel Death-Star
What if it realy was? Considering the fact the Empire can get one built in a few months, whats to stop five-six years down the road a Rebel Death Star poping up in orbit around Courscant with Barley enough time for a ooh, ship and wammo-no more Papy and Vadar

[IRG CommandoJoe]

(Remeber the Second Death Star was painted by Papys PR people as a Rebel Death-Star

What in the hell does that sentence mean? To the best of my abilities, I will attempt to translate it into acceptable English.

"Remember the Death Star II was painted by Palpatine's PR people as a Rebel Death Star."

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
PR people?
Rebel Death Star?
What are you talking about???

[Raxmei]

In one of the X-Wing books (Wedge's Gamble, I think) we get to see some Imperial propaganda. It paints a decidedly different picture of the Battle of Endor. The Rebels were building a death star in secret, based off of stolen ore extractor plans. They planned to use it for terrorist attacks against Imperial planets. The Emperor, at great risk to himself, boarded the death star and pleaded with the Rebels, promising his friendship and forgiveness if they would just give up their mad sceme. As the outnumbered and outgunned Imperial fleet fought valiantly against the Rebel fleet outside, Palpatine realized he had no hope of convincing his adversaries. So he used the Force to destroy the station. His valiant sacrifice saved the lives of billions of innocent civilians from Rebel attack.

I'm not making this up.

[Kurgan]

I actually don't have my SE tapes with me (puts on flame proof fanboy suit), so I can't check that interview, but it would be nice to see any other sources to back up the assertion that that was Lucas's plan all along.

Though if you're right, then that settles it, the entire planet was a rebel planet.

Still, they were civilians right? Or was it a munitions plant for the enemy? I still think it's mighty suspicious that there's absolutely NO ships to even try a suicidal attack against the Death Star. If Leia held any influence there, and she had the plans, surely she had some idea of what it was capable of and the Rebel spy cells did as well.

Some how I think that if Alderaan was really as well connected as that, they'd know what this big hulking thing was. Did they think the Empire was bluffing? Who knows, but somehow I doubt it, unless the Empire was goody-two-shoes until this point (I guess we'll have to see if there are any atrocities committed in their name in Episode III).

Otherwise, we're either to assume the Rebels are so stupid as to not guard a huge industrial center of their's, cowardly in that they desert their allies in a time of peril (shooting themselves in the foot to boot) or else this is just a case of the Empire blowing some people up for thought-crime and to cause terror.

Notice the term "terrorist" comes from the idea of causing terror to further political goals. Ie: making people fear for their very lives through violent actions. Looks like that's what the Empire's doing here.

As to the trail of blood on Tatooine, don't tell me that Imperial intelligence couldn't do any better than this. Maybe if they were so concerned about covering things up, they should have sent somebody other than a bunch of trigger happy Stormtroopers to do the job. Sure, somebody like Darth Vader is even more ruthless and evil than the cast of "Troops" but let's face it, he'd get the job done, not screw it up as royally as they did...

They made the Empire look bad, if nothing else they should be disciplined for incompetence. They also unwittingly set Luke Skywalker on the path of the Jedi and becoming a Rebel agent, leading to the death of the Emperor, etc etc... I guess Palpatine couldn't see that far into the future, eh?

[Kurgan]

That reminds me, in the "alternate timeline" story in Star Wars Infinities: A New Hope, they have a bunch of different events happening, including, at the end....

Yoda takes control of the Death Star, and CRASHES IT INTO PALPATINE'S PALACE!

(and after viewing the "Endor Holocaust" scenario, that seems like the worst atrocity the Rebellion could accomplish)

Think of it, in order to kill the Emperor, Yoda not only kills himself, but likely millions of innocent bystanders...

[IRG CommandoJoe]

I wonder what would have happened if Palpatine somehow was saved and ended up to be a Jedi Master or just really strong in the Light Side of the Force. Imagine how different things would be. Lets assume immediately after the events of AotC, the Jedi Council discovered from the clues Darth Tyrannus gave Obi-Wan Kenobi that Palpatine was the Sith Lord. So lets say one day they knock on his door, say it's the blue milk man, when he opens the door, they capture him. They put him in a Force-proof confinement area (the thing Obi-Wan was in) and turn him into being a great Jedi Master and then sit back and watch what happens as in the Senate.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

Oh yeah and pulls off another similar trick on Darth Tyrannus. Forgot about him...

[Lt. Nebfer]

The best form of goverment is a "good" dictatorship(most efeshent)
the enpier was bad on the command level(ie vader, ect)
but guys like Pellaeon,Neda and Peitt where good i think thrawn was good to