Possible Clone Mutiny?

[Juubi Karakuchi]

There doesn't seem to be a Bad Batch thread; and I admit it doesn't always blow the socks off. But the second series has taken a vaguely interesting turn.

We have learned, from no less a personage than Commander Cody, that more than a few clones have questioned Order 66. We are also shown indications that clones are becoming disillusioned and unhappy with their situation in general. In 'The Clone Conspiracy', when Senator Chuchi tries to talk to some clones about their futures; they are unhappy at the idea of being retired. When one clone wants to go public about what happened on Kamino - since confirmed to be a full-scale genocide - he is assassinated, and his companion hunted down and killed. When Chuchi and Bail Organa go public with the genocide, Vice Admiral Rampart is thrown under the bus by Palpatine; who then twists the situation to justify the Defence Recruitment Bill, on the basis that the clones are mindlessly obedient and therefore dangerous.

To bring it together, as of the end of the episode 'Truth and Consequences', there is a small clone insurgency underway, consisting so far of Rex and Cody (who defected at the end of episode 3), and soon to be more.

This got me thinking. The obvious way to run with this would be to simply have small numbers of clones defect and later join the Rebel Alliance. But what if it became something more than that? What if this whole situation erupts into a full-blown clone mutiny; in effect, Round 2 of the Clone Wars?

As I see it, such a storyline has a lot to recommend it. Apart from anything else, it would make for a second clone war, and thus correct that minor but much-noted continuity snarl. It would also create the clones vs stormtroopers battles that fans have been fantasising about since AOTC first premiered. To me, it would also carry a lot of irony and pathos. It would be the clones standing up, one last time, for a Republic that treated them as property, against an Empire that intends to discard them as such. And since the events of Bad Batch take place in 19 BBY, the same year as Order 66, this could all be done without it impinging too much on later events.

The only obvious in-universe problem with all this, as I see it, are the Inhibitor Chips. In theory, this should make the vast majority of clones incapable of mutiny; but then again would it? Cody obeyed Order 66, but still regretted it and defected. It could be that the chips themselves do not provide perfect obedience - despite Lama Su's claims - just a greater likelihood of obedience. It may also be that chip failure was more common than anyone realised, but those affected obeyed anyway out of discipline and peer pressure.

Well, there's no way to know right now. But it's an interesting idea anyway.

[Solauren]

I hope we do see a second 'Clone War'. It would explain why the Empire stop using Clones in the first place.

Also, it would make the idea of 'Clone Madness' questionable in the Disney Continuality. Was it madness, or was it them standing up for themselves?

[Juubi Karakuchi]

I hope we do see a second 'Clone War'. It would explain why the Empire stop using Clones in the first place.

Also, it would make the idea of 'Clone Madness' questionable in the Disney Continuality. Was it madness, or was it them standing up for themselves?

The sad part would be that standing up for themselves would, from a certain point of view, be a sign of madness. It would go against everything they are supposedly engineered to be.

[Batman]

From a very deranged point of view. The Nazis of old and the Nazis of new (the republican party) ALSO tried/try to do engineer people to the best of their ability. Is rejecting that kind of programming really madness?

[Juubi Karakuchi]

From a very deranged point of view. The Nazis of old and the Nazis of new (the republican party) ALSO tried/try to do engineer people to the best of their ability. Is rejecting that kind of programming really madness?

What the Kaminoans did goes far beyond any of that. They were engineering supposedly loyal and obedient soldiers at the genetic level. Clones are supposed to be neurologically incapable of disobedience or disloyalty. From the Kaminoan POV, such behaviour would be totally outside the expected norm; exactly the kind of thing anyone else would label as insane or deviant.

[Ralin]

What the Kaminoans did goes far beyond any of that. They were engineering supposedly loyal and obedient soldiers at the genetic level. Clones are supposed to be neurologically incapable of disobedience or disloyalty. From the Kaminoan POV, such behaviour would be totally outside the expected norm; exactly the kind of thing anyone else would label as insane or deviant.

I mean if we're going off the idea that insanity is a massive and dysfunctional deviation from normal healthy thought the people who literally designed and engineered a lifeform do have some authority to say what constitutes normal healthy thinking for that lifeform, yeah. For whatever that's worth.

[Juubi Karakuchi]

What the Kaminoans did goes far beyond any of that. They were engineering supposedly loyal and obedient soldiers at the genetic level. Clones are supposed to be neurologically incapable of disobedience or disloyalty. From the Kaminoan POV, such behaviour would be totally outside the expected norm; exactly the kind of thing anyone else would label as insane or deviant.

I mean if we're going off the idea that insanity is a massive and dysfunctional deviation from normal healthy thought the people who literally designed and engineered a lifeform do have some authority to say what constitutes normal healthy thinking for that lifeform, yeah. For whatever that's worth.

Yes, pretty much.

It's also a broader problem the clones have. They may be seen as heroes by many in the Republic, but how many of their fans have actually met a clone? The reality, as made clear in 'The Clone Conspiracy', is that their mindset and culture (insofar as they have one) is a lot different from galactic norms. When Chuchi was trying to explain about retirement plans, all she got at first was hostility and suspicion; the clones wanted to keep on serving, not be retired or replaced. One even outright admitted he had never thought about life after the war, or when he could no longer fight. As one YouTube video commented, they are basically a bunch of ten-year-old boys in the bodies of grown men, with the fighting skills of elite soldiers. They know no other life, and want no other life; or most of them don't, anyway.

This was always going to be a problem sooner or later. The Republic tends to see them as heroes, but how many Republic/Imperial citizens have ever met a clone? It was never going to be all that long, especially with the war supposedly over, before reverence and pity turned to suspicion and fear; at least in some quarters. Palpatine's spinning of Kamino has accelerated that process.

It does make me wonder if he intended this all along. He clearly meant to replace the clones all along, but doing so was always going to be a risky business; even if he could do it peacefully. The clones were popular (at least during the war) and as we've seen, they might not want to go. Bullying/manipulating them into rebelling might be Palpatine turning a problem into a solution; as he could use the rebellion as a pretext for more military spending and security clampdowns.

[Solauren]

Setting up the Clones to rebel (and causing another War), is within line with Darth Sidious's MO.

To become Chancellor - Set up the Valorum and the Federation to rip them down, and increase his power
To become Emperor - Set up the Jedi and Confederacy to rip them down, and increase his power
Further Security - Set up the Clones and ???? to rip them down., and increase his power

[Gandalf]

It would provide a nice way to jump from an army of clones to the army of recruits. Emperor Palpatine secures the economy by lowering unemployment!

[Juubi Karakuchi]

Setting up the Clones to rebel (and causing another War), is within line with Darth Sidious's MO.

To become Chancellor - Set up the Valorum and the Federation to rip them down, and increase his power
To become Emperor - Set up the Jedi and Confederacy to rip them down, and increase his power
Further Security - Set up the Clones and ???? to rip them down., and increase his power

In the latter case, there are a couple of candidates for ????. One is anti-Imperial or Empire-sceptic senators like Riyo Chuchi, Bail Organa, and Mon Mothma (and others). There's no previous info on Chuchi's life or career after this point, so I suspect she's going to come to a bad end before long; possibly caught up in (or maybe even leading) a clone revolt. She seemed to actually care about the clones, so I can see her getting involved willingly.

The other would be insurgences; vaguely mentioned in 'The Clone Conspiracy.' When the droids shut down, the Empire was able to move right in; but they ended up having to garrison countless ex-Confederate planets - whose people did not necessarily feel defeated - with a few million clones. It makes sense, therefore, for trouble to be breaking out. For them to be fighting for their freedom alongside rebel clones would be a nice little irony; while mutual distrust - and even hatred - would contribute to their defeat.

All this would be the perfect pretext for further crackdowns and increases in Imperial power. The ISB would be created to police the galaxy, hunting down 'traitors' (even at the highest levels) and 'terrorists' (anywhere in the galaxy). The PSFs would be disbanded, and their personnel and resources folded into the new Imperial Army; which would then take over their duties while supporting the stormtroopers and loyal clones. And if I recall rightly from Legends, a fair bit of surplus PSF equipment ended up on the black market, and found its way into the hands of the Rebel Alliance.

[Solauren]

I was thinking Kamino for the ????? actually.

By ripping down the clones, and their source, he can probably arrange for all that lovely genetics knowledge and technology to end up anywhere he wants...

like a certain Sith world he's eventually reborn on....

[Juubi Karakuchi]

As of the latest Bad Batch episode, at least some of that knowledge and technology is inside Mount Tantiss

[bilateralrope]

How long has it been since that creature appeared in Clone Wars ?

I was thinking it was a dropped plot thread.

[Juubi Karakuchi]

Indeed. I was mildly surprised to see the Zillo beast again.

This particular plot does confirm that the Empire is running a cloning project out of Mount Tantiss, on Weyland. Precisely what they're trying to create is less clear. The Empire clearly has the ability to clone a Zillo beast, yet they still want Nala Se's help. This does hint at the creation of Snoke, and of the Palpatine clone(s); a Force-sensitive clone could well be tricky to create.

[Juubi Karakuchi]

Some more details in the latest episode.

The clones are being retired, much to their annoyance, and stormtroopers are being deployed. Without going into too much detail, the general theme is that the Empire regards the Clones as disposable tools, and is increasingly unafraid to say so.

Going on emotions, I'd be amazed if there wasn't some sort of clone uprising now. The show has been hammering home the Empire's callousness towards clones, and their growing unhappiness and resentment over it. That stormtroopers are now being deployed in numbers would seem to back this up; since it allows for clonetrooper-vs-stormtrooper battles.

The latter is also interesting from a practical point of view. We learn from the episode that Mayday's squad was sent to the outpost one year earlier. According to Wookiepedia at least, this suggests that the episode takes place at least one year after Order 66, perhaps a little longer. By way of comparison, I checked out the British army's training programme, which is listed as 28 weeks/6-7 months for an infantry soldier and 44 weeks/11-12 months for an officer. So the timing works out for stormtroopers and even young Imperial officers to be in service.

[NecronLord]

I do also think that the interest in making Nala Se cooperate might indicate that Omega is force sensitive, too.

[Juubi Karakuchi]

You might be right. If the whole point of Mount Tantiss is the Palpatine Immortality Project, than a Force-sensitive Omega is bound to be of interest.

[Adam Reynolds]

I do also think that the interest in making Nala Se cooperate might indicate that Omega is force sensitive, too.

Is there any indication that Omega is Force sensitive? I don't think we have seen any clear sign of this.

[Juubi Karakuchi]

I do also think that the interest in making Nala Se cooperate might indicate that Omega is force sensitive, too.

Is there any indication that Omega is Force sensitive? I don't think we have seen any clear sign of this.

Not as yet. The show drops the odd hint, but nothing concrete. There's three episodes left of this series AFAIK, so if that's what they're going for, we'll probably get something soon.

[Juubi Karakuchi]

Another episode, and some more info.

There is a clone insurgency underway, including Rex and Echo. They have an armed ship, and managed to raid an Imperial Gozanti (making its first appearance) and free three clone prisoners. They later tell Chuchi that clones are being locked up in greater and greater numbers, due to dissidence or insubordination. Tarkin confirms this later on, but Dr Hemlock thinks he can fix that.

Imperial competence gives a mixed showing. The rebel clones go through stormtroopers (assuming that's what they are) pretty easily, one-shooting them with few if any shots off in return. But the officer in charge remembers to wipe the ship's computer, and commits suicide when captured. Later, Crosshair manages to take down several stormtroopers while drugged, then finds an unattended communication room and gets a message off. But when the Imperials realise what he's doing, they immediately shut down the comm system and gas the room.

All in all, a bad showing in direct combat, and the Empire seems ignorant of the wonders of the security camera. But they will react quickly when something is obviously wrong, and make use of countermeasures. Funnily enough, this seems like a good fit for the Empire; a sort-of fascist regime that doesn't trust its own personnel. Besides that, it seems to be a matter of author fiat and/or plot convenience.

On a side note, Omega is learning to pilot the Marauder, and is proving pretty good at it.

[Lord Revan]

To be fair to the stormtroopers most rebel clones are probably Clone Wars veterans, while Stormtroopers would fairly fresh recruits and you can train only so much within a reasonable timeframe so veteran troopers would be superior to fresh recruits due to experience, veteran Clones are probably also more willing and capable of thinking outside the box as experience would have partly deprogrammed them (not enough to turn them disloyal by itself but enough that they're capable of thinking by themselves and not just mindlessly doing what higher up tell them to do or repeating the "party line").

[NecronLord]

I don't really mind stormtroopers being depicted as incompetent or mixed, and certainly I think clone troopers should generally be shown to be superior. Years rather than months of training and being selected from a template with excellent genetic characteristics really should pay off.

[Solauren]

Also, we have no idea how extensive or encompassing the training on Kamino was. If we assume the clones were old enough to big training at age 2 (roughly 4 - 6 physical years old), that could have been 8 years of training put in their heads. What might be 'outside the box' thinking, might actually have been 'Year 4 - Unlikely scenarios from fiction and how to use them'.

[Juubi Karakuchi]

I don't really mind stormtroopers being depicted as incompetent or mixed, and certainly I think clone troopers should generally be shown to be superior. Years rather than months of training and being selected from a template with excellent genetic characteristics really should pay off.

It is what it is. But it was interesting to see what actually happens.

I've given this a look-over, and funnily enough, I don't think the stormtroopers' problem is shooting. They're deadly against enemy minions (anyone not character or plot-shielded), and when they aren't, there are usually other explanations. The problem, as I see it, is that they're just not very smart. They tend to be easily tricked, easily distracted, and make what look like FPS noob mistakes on the battlefield; like forgetting to take cover, and blundering into enemies and getting shot.

Funnily enough, in the FFG RPG, stormtroopers and clones have the same stat line; aside from clones having the 'Vigilance' skill. Vigilance covers noticing things, being prepared for unexpected situations, and reacting to said situations (whether one has prepared or not). So on that basis, clones are better at reading the environment, keeping track of things and people present, and coping with the unexpected changes.

My best explanation is that stormtrooper training is solid on the basics and ideological indoctrination, but favours mindless obedience over independent thought. They're simply not trained in advanced infantry tactics, or how to think their way around a combat situation. Contrast the clones, who were specifically marketed as being able to think creatively, and whom we see engaging in squad-level exercises.

Stormtroopers who do better have most likely either had remedial training, or are veterans who have figured it out the hard way. The former makes sense for Thrawn, since he does actually try to cultivate his subordinates. Vader might also do the same for his 1st Legion, but he has the clout to get the best troopers too.

[NecronLord]

Have you seen the stormtrooper cadet training in Rebels? They're trained not only to not work as a team but to try and one-up one another to look good for the brass, it's both the kind of tough-guy shit you can imagine an authoritarian regime doing easily, and also one of the most devastating to unit effectiveness ideas one can think of.