Crazedwraith wrote: ↑2022-02-23 12:24pm
KraytKing wrote: ↑2022-02-23 11:52am
Crazedwraith wrote: ↑2022-02-23 10:22am
That sort of loops back to out discussion of trust. The more the jedi distrust the clones if they are obviously evil or going to back stab the jedi the more likely the jedi are to develop such contingencies.
Developing contingencies also plays into Palpatine's hands in a propaganda way, I love it. If he can publicize the plans or send copies to clone commanders, well, the proof is right there. The Jedi really WERE trying to launch a coup. Even MORE of the clones will obey Order 66. Definitely going to incorporate that into the story.
Except contingencies doesn't mean 'planning to overthrow the republic'.
Information is subjective. The Jedi don't have to plan to overthrow the Republic, they just have to do something close enough that Palpatine could use it to obfuscate the truth.
And the idea that Palpatine as to convince the clones as people to obey Order 66, really defeats the point of the clones. That kind of stuff is for the public at large, not his custom build, designed, trained tools for Jedi back stabbing.
Good point. I'll concede, a little bit. You're right, he shouldn't have to phone up his commanders and go "look at this, can't you see they're bad? Please please will you kill them?" But, I think it does still support the idea that he wouldn't need brain chip programming or total indoctrination to convince them. If the Jedi are independent enough to actually come up with contingency plans like that, wouldn't that mean they COULD have made one to overthrow the Republic? Wouldn't clone commanders grasp that possibility? When orders come down (through the proper fucking channels, not a personal call from a guy who looks nothing like the C-in-C) and claim that the Jedi have attacked the Chancellor (true) and have plans to decapitate the military (sort of true, from a certain point of view), then the soldiers are going to obey out of fear. Which is nice to thematically connect to "fear leads to the dark side." They will fear what could happen if they DON'T shoot first, and then do it.
Also, the clones are pretty smart. Not your run-of-the-mill recruit armies. They're probably accustomed to getting more detailed intelligence briefings than regular soldiers. You could probably send them some portion of captured plans to allow them to respond in a measured fashion, with the side effect of convincing them it really is true.
The public at large is really who Palpatine has to discredit the jedi with throughout the war(s) via whatever low key not appearing to methods he can. I know you've said you view the jedi as the others with their powers and being outside the normal chain of command. But the way Obi-Wan/ANH presents it, Palpatine has got to over come the good will of being the Guardians of peace and justice for a thousand years without ever trying to overthrow/coup it or anything like. The view of the public of jedi should (again imo) be pretty positive until Palpatine tries to sabotage them.
You can present them as being less shiny to start with of course but that diminishes the tragedy of their fall.
-
It doesn't fit with any particular point of yours or Gunheads but that's why I think Palpatine really should be aiming for as high a killcount as possible in order 66 as quickly as possible, It's not just the Jedi order still existing to coordinate actively against him but their mere existence. I think they would be rallying rebellion around them much more effectively than they would in canon, just be existing and refuting Palpatine's propaganda about the order with first hand accounts.
Also why Palpatine would be using the war as an excuse to limit things like freedom of the press and speech long before he actually comes to power.
No quarrel with any of this. I would just say, as I did in the very beginning of the thread, that perhaps the Jedi should have suffered a bit of a fall from their ideals of old. This way, it isn't evil beating good: according to the narrative of Star Wars, good always triumphs over evil. The Empire beat the Jedi because the Jedi weren't good anymore. Overthrowing Jedi like Yoda and Alec Guinness-aged Obi-Wan would have been impossible, because they are good.
Edit:
Crazedwraith wrote: ↑2022-02-25 10:11am
Me saying or not saying anything is more a consequence of whether i had any energy for internet arguing at the time of the response and felt i had anything to say rather than indicating agreement or disagreement to any argument.
I'd appreciate not being used as point of argument.
You weren't. Your mention was tangential to the point, which was imploring Yan to actually disagree if he disagreed. Similarly, I would implore you to do the same, but at least you aren't crowing "you're still wrong for undefined reasons."