Re: Cost and Economics of the TIE Fighter and Hyperdrives
Posted: 2020-05-21 08:19pm
ANH. The TIEs don't Zerg Rush the X-Wings, and they don't die in droves.
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All military hardware is "expendable". The only question is what's the risk vs. reward. You're always balancing between quality vs. quantity with anything you're going field in any meaningful numbers. Big military like the Empire would by necessity place heavier emphasis on quantity as it needs simply more to cover all the area it aims to keep controlled, that doesn't mean they'd totally abandon quality but it's more a case of stuff being good enough with highly limited number of top of the line equipment given to specialist / elite troops. This reflects also to tactics and strategy and then there is the big question who do you need to fight / are fighting and or trying to deter so you don't have to.
That was my analysis too (back on page 1), and I ended up concluding that a mix of cheap non-clone pilots (vs. Rebels who have recruitment bottlenecks), ideology, plentiful capital ships and desirable combat characteristics of lightweight fighters led to their dominance in Imperial times.GuppyShark wrote: ↑2020-05-22 10:24pm Based on what's been raised I see four major 'cost centres' of starfighter design:
Pilot training.
Hyperdrive.
Shields.
Everything else.
Pilot training - Is flying a starfighter highly assisted by AI/droids or is it like flying a 21st century jet?
Hyperdrive - I'm not sold that hyperdrives are extremely expensive. When Watto is asked about the hyperdrive part Qui-Gon needs his response indicates that the problem is that it's specifically Nubian, not that it's a hyperdrive component itself. Nubian ships are clearly intended to be hand-crafted, rare starships used by the wealthy and prestigious, not the masses. Hyperdrive-capable ships are apparently cheap enough that Luke balks at Han's initial asking price (10,000) protesting "almost buy our own ship for that". That price turned out to be... about 5x the cost of his landspeeder.
Shields. Shields seem to vary in strength from old-EU 'it's a hitpoint pool' to what we see in the films, where it's not uncommon to see a 'shielded' craft blapped in seconds.
WWII comparisons are overdone but is it reasonable to compare them as TIEs are Shermans (mass produced, just good enough, crews were easy to come by) vs X-wings were Panzers (as good as they could make them, skilled crews the main constraint)?
According to who? Karen Traviss?
Which is why I think comparison to modern military warplanes for the social role and training of the pilots is misguided. A TIE isn't the apex of a warfighting machine that represents a monumental commitment of resources and is expected to dominate its battlespace as a F-35. The TIE appears to be more of a disposably massed point defense system for more valuable assets. They're a cog in a local superiority war machine, not the point of the spear.chimericoncogene wrote: ↑2020-05-23 12:47am Yeah, the Rebel's relative lack of capital ship capability was probably a huge factor in their decision to rely on heavy starfighters. Also, for a Rebellion, weaker than its opponent and with no need to hold territory, offensive capability - space denial - is far more important than space control, which is what capships and frigates can buy you.
Think Soviet Naval Aviation Backfires vs USN CVBG air wings.
The Empire, OTOH, needs space control. TIE fighters seen to be basically optimized for interceptor A2A duties - defending larger warships from enemy fighters, possibly under ground control (well, capship fighter warfare director control), and for that, a hyperdrive equipped multirole strike fighter with proton torpedoes and concussion missiles (like the TIE defender and X wing) is overkill.
Weapons systems are merely parts of a greater warfighting system, and it is helpful to think about the ecosystem the TIE inhabits.
Rex, actually. In Star Wars Rebels, he complains that Stormtrooper armor is junk armor compared to Clone trooper armor. Could be an old man yelling at a cloud, but he seemed to believe that it was junk.MKSheppard wrote: ↑2020-06-03 03:22pmAccording to who? Karen Traviss?
Let's look at this logically.
Historically throughout history, there have been in order of effectiveness:
Militia / Levee En Masse
Garrison / Police Troops
Regulars
Elites
And then kind of sorta "Special Forces" like units throughout history before they began to be formalized in WWII.
On top of this, you have internal pecking orders going all the way back to Imperial Rome, where you had:
Praetorian Guard
Legions (citizen, long term professionals)
Auxilia (Non Citizens)
Numeri (Barbarians/Mercenaries)
In Nazi Germany, you had in no particular order:
Heer (Army)
Luftwaffe (Field Divisions and Panzergrenadier divisions)
SS / Waffen SS
Sturmabteilung (SA) -- their small armed wing went from a regiment in 1940 to Panzerkorps Feldherrnhalle in 1945.
Gestapo / Ordnungspolizei -- rear area security via police battalions.
In Soviet Russia, things were much more streamlined; you had the military branches and the NKVD Internal Troops - by 1945 they had 53 divisions and 28 brigades, mostly doing rear area security, though some units did fight in Stalingrad.
For the Galactic Empire, you had in the old canon:
Imperial Navy
Imperial Army
Stormtroopers (explictly called out in WEG material as being quite unique all the way back to 1986 1E).
Imperial Security Bureau / Ubiqtorate (Gestapo)
COMPNOR / COMPFORCE (paramilitary thing similar to the Hitler Youth combined with the SA/SS)
Royal Guard (the Red guys on the death star II shadowing Palpatine)
Storm Commandos (All black Stormtroopers)
Rogue One made the Storm Commandos into the Death Troopers, and the new Darth Vader Comic renamed COMPNOR/COMPFORCE into the "Coalition for Progress" (CFP); while Solo made the Imperial Army canon in their first "on screen appearance".
Much like the real world, there would be elite units in each branch -- the German Army had Grossdeutschland, which got Tigers and Panthers for Kursk, while the SS had it's "classic" divisions (LSSAH, Das Reich, Totenkopf, Wiking, Hitlerjugend).
The US Army saw a lot of it's best manpower drained off to the Airborne and Army Air Corps, while the USMC actually disbanded it's "elite" units (Marine Airborne and Marine Raiders).
For the Clonetroopers; you had "elite" units, such as the ARC Troopers (Advanced Recon Commandos) who had prototype Mk 2 Clone Trooper Armor while everyone else had Mk 1 Armor.
During the Clone Wars show, they showed the slow degeneration of the Clone Troopers; with the "Bad Batch" and then at some point the Kaminoans said that since they no longer could get fresh samples from Jango Fett (lol wat) they couldn't gaurantee the quality of the clones.
It stands to reason that the first batch of Clonetroopers were the best; since the Kaminoans could take a full unhurried ten years to prepare them, and their armor could be built to pre-war standards.
As soon as the Clone Wars kicked off, there would have been immense pressure on the Kaminoans to produce more "units" of clones, as well as the equipment to equip them; and corners would have been cut in both final training and production of armor.
I think a better comparison would be:Coop D'etat wrote: ↑2020-06-03 04:56pmA TIE isn't the apex of a warfighting machine that represents a monumental commitment of resources and is expected to dominate its battlespace as a F-35. The TIE appears to be more of a disposably massed point defense system for more valuable assets. They're a cog in a local superiority war machine, not the point of the spear.
Nope, Rex calls it junk armor:Batman wrote: ↑2020-06-03 09:56pm I don't think that was Rex though unless there was a second incident. That was 'Kanan' when he and Rex had just been downed by Ezra's sabre pistol, and they both were up and about again in under a minute. If you're referring to a different incident please enlighten me.
Those views were generally held by Rebel pilots, so a hefty dose of bias1 is involved. TIE pilots weren't any more expendable than any other component of the Imperial military, with the degree of expendability likely depending on which level of command you're talking about. On the level of the Emperor and Vader, everyone was expendable. As you work your way down from there it changes, largely depending on the particular outlook of a given commander. Your average Fleet Admiral probably doesn't see his pilots as especially "expendable" but someone like Ysanne Isard was perfectly willing to sacrifice even elite pilots if it furthered her political aims.
They aren't even local patrol craft. We mostly seeing them do point-defense interceptor work (well, they run down a few fleeing light freighters too). The Imp Navy is capship heavy, so they're basically manned SAMs from back before we had SAMs.RogueIce wrote: ↑2020-06-11 06:44am
Honestly I think Shep is somewhat on the right track for the cost analysis, but of course we have to look at if the TIE fighters even needed hyperdrives for what they were intended to be. They weren't long-range strike craft, they were local patrol craft always assumed to have a base or ship nearby. The added cost and complexity of adding a hyperdrive wouldn't be worth it for what the Empire wanted out of its TIE fighters, regardless of whether or not the economy of the Galactic Empire could have supported it.
Fundamentally, the TIE fighter is a Bf109. The X-wing isn't as simple, but I think it's best described as a floatplane P47N.chimericoncogene wrote: ↑2020-06-11 11:08amThey aren't even local patrol craft. We mostly seeing them do point-defense interceptor work (well, they run down a few fleeing light freighters too). The Imp Navy is capship heavy, so they're basically manned SAMs from back before we had SAMs.RogueIce wrote: ↑2020-06-11 06:44am
Honestly I think Shep is somewhat on the right track for the cost analysis, but of course we have to look at if the TIE fighters even needed hyperdrives for what they were intended to be. They weren't long-range strike craft, they were local patrol craft always assumed to have a base or ship nearby. The added cost and complexity of adding a hyperdrive wouldn't be worth it for what the Empire wanted out of its TIE fighters, regardless of whether or not the economy of the Galactic Empire could have supported it.
Was there ever actually such a thing? In any case, the performance tradeoff can't have been that big* for a hyperdrive, as it presumably gave more power for its greater weight.Captain Seafort wrote: ↑2020-06-11 01:08pm Fundamentally, the TIE fighter is a Bf109. The X-wing isn't as simple, but I think it's best described as a floatplane P47N.
Have you seen the layout of Jedi interceptors (and their hyperdrive rings)? Hyperdrives are reasonably large affairs, and can easily double the mass of your space fighter - with attendant costs for bigger engines, bigger s-foils, etc, etc.Adam Reynolds wrote: ↑2020-06-14 10:55pmWas there ever actually such a thing? In any case, the performance tradeoff can't have been that big* for a hyperdrive, as it presumably gave more power for its greater weight.Captain Seafort wrote: ↑2020-06-11 01:08pm Fundamentally, the TIE fighter is a Bf109. The X-wing isn't as simple, but I think it's best described as a floatplane P47N.
* For the F4F, it took 90 mph off the speed, which made a floatplane version all but useless. There is a reason that only one was converted.
There wasn't - it's the closest concept I could come up with combining huge range, the ability to land and take off from pretty much anywhere, decent tactical performance against a dedicated short-range interceptor, and significant ground-attack capability.
Well I wouldn't directly compare the hyperdrive rings into the size of a hyperdrive, I mean we saw a hyperdrive unit in Episode one and it wasn't that big compared to the ship it was installed in, Amidala's ship was around 90 m long IIRC and the hyperdrive looked like it was at most 2 meters wide, 2 meters tall and half a meter deep compared to Obi-wan who was working on the unit.chimericoncogene wrote: ↑2020-06-15 01:56amHave you seen the layout of Jedi interceptors (and their hyperdrive rings)? Hyperdrives are reasonably large affairs, and can easily double the mass of your space fighter - with attendant costs for bigger engines, bigger s-foils, etc, etc.Adam Reynolds wrote: ↑2020-06-14 10:55pmWas there ever actually such a thing? In any case, the performance tradeoff can't have been that big* for a hyperdrive, as it presumably gave more power for its greater weight.Captain Seafort wrote: ↑2020-06-11 01:08pm Fundamentally, the TIE fighter is a Bf109. The X-wing isn't as simple, but I think it's best described as a floatplane P47N.
* For the F4F, it took 90 mph off the speed, which made a floatplane version all but useless. There is a reason that only one was converted.
Compare a V-wing or a Delta with an ARC-170. The ARC-170 has more crew, more sensors, more everything because there's no point building a lightweight fighter that's 70% hyperdrive by mass.
The A-wing is magnificent for stuffing a hyperdrive into a spaceframe that small.