New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by channel73 » 2020-06-30 12:23pm

Another thing about the whole "New Empire vs Rebellion" issue - I feel like Luke's arc (going from curmudgeon/hermit to saving the day) also doesn't properly fit into this framework. Lots of people didn't like Luke in this movie, but few people really talk about how his arc makes little sense in the context of an imminent Galactic invasion from a fanatical superpower. I mean, he's like dithering around with Rey, dispensing wisdom and talking about how the Jedi suck, meanwhile trillions of people are getting conquered or dying like every hour. (At least that's what we're led to believe - it happens off screen, so whatever.)

In Empire Strikes Back, there's no imminent urgency while Luke is being trained by Yoda. The status quo is that the Galaxy is already conquered by the Empire. Luke is training in order to upturn the status quo. So they can take time to train and learn about the Force.

But in Last Jedi, the status quo (where the New Republic was in power) is being rapidly destroyed for the worse off screen, and Luke is just fumbling around half-assedly training Rey. The whole thing doesn't fit. Now is not the time to train Rey, it's the time to get off your ass and help with this major Galactic emergency.

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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by ray245 » 2020-06-30 12:44pm

channel73 wrote:
2020-06-30 12:14pm
Who knows. There's no actual flirting, but there's a line of dialogue somewhere that indicates Holdo is at least attracted to him (I think she jokes with Leia at one point about it - I think they call him cute.)

Regardless, the whole thing is stupid. They're in an extreme life-or-death situation and down to like 100 crew members and the entire Galaxy is being conquered by fanatical assholes, so any levity at this point in the script comes off as a bit weird.
The writing for TLJ is really weird. There is a very big disconnect between directorial vision and what's actually seen on screen.
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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-06-30 01:20pm

Civil War Man wrote:
2020-06-30 08:10am
I had heard about RJ's thing about having Holdo flirt with Poe before. I do hope that was something that ended up not making it into the final product, because if what we saw on screen was that vision fulfilled, that would make Holdo a massive scumbag. It takes some mental gymnastics, but the initial interaction where Poe asks about the plan and Holdo dresses him down for it could theoretically be interpreted as flirting...if you assume the dressing down is Holdo trying to neg Poe. So, yeah, I sincerely hope that wasn't RJ's idea of flirting, because then it would be revealing some very unfortunate attitudes on his part.
Yeah, I'd lose quite a bit of respect for him if that was the case, but I'd have to hear more before I reached that conclusion, since he otherwise seems more on the ball as a director, and any attraction in the final film was either absent or very low key.
ray245 wrote:
2020-06-30 12:44pm
channel73 wrote:
2020-06-30 12:14pm
Who knows. There's no actual flirting, but there's a line of dialogue somewhere that indicates Holdo is at least attracted to him (I think she jokes with Leia at one point about it - I think they call him cute.)

Regardless, the whole thing is stupid. They're in an extreme life-or-death situation and down to like 100 crew members and the entire Galaxy is being conquered by fanatical assholes, so any levity at this point in the script comes off as a bit weird.
The writing for TLJ is really weird. There is a very big disconnect between directorial vision and what's actually seen on screen.
I don't think there is generally, unless there are more statements by Rian describing a vision which is at odds with what's actually on-screen that I don't know about. I personally found the film's point easy enough to follow, and the biggest disconnect was between what was actually on-screen, and what a vocal segment of the fandom claims to perceive.
Galvatron wrote:
2020-06-30 10:41am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-06-30 02:15am
In fact, pretty much ever criticism of Holdo could be made of Leia as well, but Leia largely gets a pass, because OT worship.
I think Leia generally gets a pass because Carrie Fisher died prior to the film's release and because her attire was at least somewhat explained in (I think) the novelization being as her "Alderaanian mourning garb" because Han just died.

Put all that aside and, yeah, her attire was stupid too.
Or, you know, a rag-tag rebellion in a fictional universe has different dress codes and customs than a real-world military.

I mean, it would be unprofessional to wear a long brown robe to work in the modern US military. But nobody goes on about how stupid the Jedi's dress is.
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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by ray245 » 2020-06-30 02:01pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-06-30 01:20pm
I don't think there is generally, unless there are more statements by Rian describing a vision which is at odds with what's actually on-screen that I don't know about. I personally found the film's point easy enough to follow, and the biggest disconnect was between what was actually on-screen, and what a vocal segment of the fandom claims to perceive
Holdo's arc is one of more noticeable issue, and the Canto Bright arc is also a big issue as well.
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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by channel73 » 2020-06-30 02:13pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-05-23 03:20pm
Honestly, when I think about what Disney and Abrams did to the Sequel trilogy, it makes me sick. I think I finally sort of get what all the Prequel bashers saying the new movies raped their childhoods meant, now. I still think that they're twits, but I get how they felt. The world waited thirty years for a sequel trilogy, and they failed to stick the landing. They had so much money and technology and talent at their disposal, and they fucking wasted it on this shitty disjointed fanfic script. Now Rise of Skywalker is the official end of the Skywalker Saga, and also Carrie Fisher's last film appearance, and that's so fucking sad. And even if the will was there to remake it, they can't. Not the way it should have been. Carrie Fisher's dead, and Harrison Ford is ancient, and the fandom is toxic and divided and despised, and this is it, this is what we'll be stuck with. Forever.
I laughed out loud (and also kind of cried inside) when I read this. I always find it interesting to read how people from different generations react to different iterations of Star Wars.

I agree the Sequel Trilogy is horrible. But it's crazy to me (as an elderly fart in his late 30s who grew up with the OT) to see that there actually is a genuine group of fans who love the Sequel Trilogy, who love the characters, etc, even Rise of Skywalker, because their first exposure to Star Wars was the story of Rey and Kylo Ren. (There's like entire sub-reddits devoted to talking about how awesome the ST is). I wonder if, in 10 to 15 years, people will soften their opinions about the ST, the way it seems the Prequels have now become more well received.

I mean, I completely agree with you - the Sequels are utter shit, and it's heart-wrenching how we've permanently lost any opportunity to reunite the old cast. But at this point, I'm somewhat more jaded because I already went through this cycle of hype and disappointment with the Prequels. I actually still feel like the Prequels are somewhat worse - not in terms of quality (nothing beats Rise of Skywalker for sheer unadulterated, parody-level insanity), but just in terms of overall impact. The only reason I say this is that I feel like the Prequels basically ruined Anakin Skywalker for me, whereas the Sequels always felt somewhat inconsequential to me. Maybe it's just because I'm older now, but the Sequel Trilogy always felt like it didn't really matter - maybe because the story is much less connected with the OT, maybe it's because all the plot threads in the OT were all tied up neatly in ROTJ so there's technically no story-telling reason for the Sequels to even exist.

Let me put it this way: the tragedy of Darth Vader was an amazing story, which I feel was completely squandered in the execution. But there was no story at all to be told with the Sequels. Even if they had turned out to be good, the entire ST is still arguably superfluous. The only real tragic part is not on the story-telling level, but on the meta-level of missing the opportunity to reunite 3 childhood heros and the actors that portrayed them.
At this point I'm so disillusioned that I'd probably be down for killing the film franchise for ten or twenty years and then hard rebooting. Except even that wouldn't fix the problem, which is a fear of the new. Problem is, I'm not sure you can go forward to something I'd be interested in watching that builds on what we have with RoS, so I do kind of get the appeal of going back to old material in earlier eras. I don't know how you can have a Star Wars continuity which includes RoS and is still something I want to watch. Its flaws aren't minor. They are fundamental, and they damage not only the film itself but the entire Star Wars saga.
I agree. I don't see any way to meaningfully recover from RoS. It literally is almost indistinguishable from a parody of Star Wars. It's like, hey Palpatine's back (somehow!!) and he has a fleet of 10 billion Star Destroyers which are also all Death Stars! OMG fuck you!

It's seriously comes off as a parody of Star Wars fan-fiction, and it's hard to really care about any new Star Wars material that includes these events. I mean, I enjoyed the Mandalorian, but even that is sometimes slightly hard to get too invested in given that it ultimately intersects with a timeline where Palpatine is on Exegol doing weird Sith shit.
Oh, and let's throw in a gratuitous reference to how our Latino character used to be a drug smuggler too. Got to keep the Trumpers happy!
Okay calm down now... not everything is racist. They just wanted to make Poe more like Han Solo (who was a smuggler). They probably didn't even think about the connection with Latinos - they were too busy copy-pasting elements of the OT into their new script in a desperate attempt to make it suck less.

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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by Galvatron » 2020-06-30 02:31pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-06-30 01:20pm
Or, you know, a rag-tag rebellion in a fictional universe has different dress codes and customs than a real-world military.
Yet Holdo and Leia were surrounded by people in the very same "rag-tag rebellion" who all wore uniforms. Leia had a reason. What was Holdo's?
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-06-30 01:20pm
I mean, it would be unprofessional to wear a long brown robe to work in the modern US military. But nobody goes on about how stupid the Jedi's dress is.
Of course it's stupid. Just because we're ragging on the ST in this thread doesn't mean the PT is suddenly forgiven.

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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by NecronLord » 2020-07-01 05:52am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-06-30 01:20pm
I mean, it would be unprofessional to wear a long brown robe to work in the modern US military. But nobody goes on about how stupid the Jedi's dress is.
I do? I am very into the costuming side of Star Wars at least and it does bug me that Lucas chose (quite late in production of TPM) to make Obi Wan's desert garb into the Jedi Order's outfit.
Image
Image
Much more professional looking, and with more concessions to fighting in them (unlike a sleeved robe these concepts were cloak type outfits that could be thrown off much more easily.
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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by chimericoncogene » 2020-07-01 07:29am

NecronLord wrote:
2020-07-01 05:52am

I do? I am very into the costuming side of Star Wars at least and it does bug me that Lucas chose (quite late in production of TPM) to make Obi Wan's desert garb into the Jedi Order's outfit.
Image
Image
Much more professional looking, and with more concessions to fighting in them (unlike a sleeved robe these concepts were cloak type outfits that could be thrown off much more easily.
Looks a lot like what Anakin ended up wearing. Obi Wan's getup in 2 and 3 is also a lot more practical.

Many other Jedi continue to have questionable fashion choices through the Clone Wars - especially female members of the Order, who keep their heavy robes in combat (or even tube tops). Mace wears something reasonable in TCW, with forearm guards, communicators and everything.

Perhaps the robe is more along the lines of non-combat wear? Visiting the Trade Fed blockade was supposed to be a diplo mission.

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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by Galvatron » 2020-07-01 10:37am

chimericoncogene wrote:
2020-07-01 07:29am
Perhaps the robe is more along the lines of non-combat wear? Visiting the Trade Fed blockade was supposed to be a diplo mission.
Anakin and Obi-Wan were wearing their robes at the beginning of ROTS too and only ditched them prior to their duel with Dooku.

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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by channel73 » 2020-07-01 03:52pm

Yeah, it's another seemingly stupid decision made on behalf of the audience. I think the reasoning was that Lucas wanted the two Jedi at the beginning of Phantom Menace to be instantly recognizable as Jedi Knights, so he made them dress the way Obi Wan dressed on Tatooine in ANH.

This kind of reasoning is really baffling to me. I mean, I get the idea of conveying information efficiently through visuals, but like... the robot directly says they're Jedi knights, and they pull out light sabers within the first 5 minutes. I just don't understand decisions like this.

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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by Formless » 2020-07-01 06:21pm

Galvatron wrote:
2020-07-01 10:37am
chimericoncogene wrote:
2020-07-01 07:29am
Perhaps the robe is more along the lines of non-combat wear? Visiting the Trade Fed blockade was supposed to be a diplo mission.
Anakin and Obi-Wan were wearing their robes at the beginning of ROTS too and only ditched them prior to their duel with Dooku.
Which is exactly what swordsman throughout the middle ages did. Again, cloaks and capes were extremely popular from the beginning of the Dark ages through the Renaissance due to the rainy weather in Europe, but if you found yourself in a swordfight you just took off your outer garment. Its not hard, they're usually held fast by a single fastener. We even see Renaissance rapier treatises which instruct you to wrap your cape around your left hand to use as an impromptu buckler (as swords in general and rapiers especially can't easily cut thick fabric). The Jedi robes obviously wouldn't work as a shield, but they've obviously thought about how to remove them in a hurry when a fight breaks out. I don't see the problem, at least from a practical point of view.
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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by Batman » 2020-07-01 06:35pm

The general lack of rain on starships or in fighters comes to mind. I don't think Anakin and Obi-Wan were expecting to have to go out into rainy weather on that mission
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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by Formless » 2020-07-01 06:53pm

Batman wrote:
2020-07-01 06:35pm
The general lack of rain on starships or in fighters comes to mind. I don't think Anakin and Obi-Wan were expecting to have to go out into rainy weather on that mission
The robes are clearly ceremonial, so again, what's the problem? It tells everyone that you are a Jedi (the lightsaber being the other symbol of the Jedi, in case they get confused), so the question isn't "why should they wear them" its "why shouldn't they?" If the answer is that it gets in the way of swordfighting, we see that they can remove them just as quickly as medieval swordfighters could, so its not a problem.

If your problem with it is that it feels lazy to assume Obi-Wans desert clothing is actually standard Jedi attire, I can't really argue that point because its a completely subjective point. Truth is no one else dressed like that in the OT or PT, so it does its job of distinguishing Jedi from everyone else just fine.

And have any of you actually seen what desert peoples wear? It may be long and flowing, but it doesn't look like a European cloak. The cloth is not as heavy and is usually white, like Luke's tunic, in order to reflect as much sunlight as possible, thus keeping you cool and preventing sunburn. Obi-Wan's attire is all kinds of wrong for Tatooine, although I bet its not as heavy as the brown coloration implies. I'm quite sure George Lucas was inspired by Medievalism due to the role of the character as a Merlin-like character. So as silly as it might seem to have all Jedi dress like that, it being Jedi attire is also the only explanation for why Obi-Wan would dress like that in the desert of all places.
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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by Batman » 2020-07-01 07:02pm

Oh I'm perfectly happy with the 'ceremonial clothes' explanation, I was just pointing out the 'they offer protection in rainy weather' bit was highly unlikely to figure into why they wear them.
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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by Formless » 2020-07-01 07:24pm

Well, my point wasn't to say that is why the Jedi wear them, it was merely to explain why they were worn historically so I could get to the real point, that cloaks and capes don't actually hinder a swordsman if worn correctly. And they certainly don't hinder modern troops who use firearms; its somewhat surprising to me that the concept of a camouflage smock was never popular outside of Nazi Germany and Russia (who transformed the idea into a camouflage jumpsuit worn over the soldier's regular uniform).
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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by Galvatron » 2020-07-01 09:57pm

Formless wrote:
2020-07-01 06:53pm
Obi-Wan's attire is all kinds of wrong for Tatooine, although I bet its not as heavy as the brown coloration implies.
The Jawas seem to like it, but maybe they have low body temperatures.

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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by Batman » 2020-07-01 10:04pm

Jawas are also tiny compared to regular humans so getting rid of body heat would be less of an issue for them
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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by Galvatron » 2020-07-01 10:15pm

It's also worth noting that placing the blame for this on the prequels may not be fair. After all, ROTJ started the whole thing when it clad Anakin's ghost in an identical copy of Obi-Wan's outfit way back in 1983.

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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by channel73 » 2020-07-05 10:20pm

Formless wrote:
2020-07-01 06:53pm
If your problem with it is that it feels lazy to assume Obi-Wans desert clothing is actually standard Jedi attire, I can't really argue that point because its a completely subjective point. Truth is no one else dressed like that in the OT or PT, so it does its job of distinguishing Jedi from everyone else just fine.
Perhaps I'm remembering incorrectly, but doesn't Uncle Owen wear a cloak/robe very similar to Obi-Wan when he's perusing droids outside the sand crawler?

At least, before the PT came out I always assumed Obi Wan's robe was just "Tatooine desert attire", especially since Luke wore the black outfit in ROTJ when he was basically a full Jedi.
Galvatron wrote:
2020-07-01 10:15pm
It's also worth noting that placing the blame for this on the prequels may not be fair. After all, ROTJ started the whole thing when it clad Anakin's ghost in an identical copy of Obi-Wan's outfit way back in 1983.
That's a really good point. I had forgotten that. But it's still kind of ambiguous because Anakin was supposed to be from Tatooine, and was like Owen's relative or something if I remember the pre-Prequel backstory correctly.

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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by channel73 » 2020-07-05 10:43pm

Formless wrote:
2020-07-01 06:53pm
And have any of you actually seen what desert peoples wear? It may be long and flowing, but it doesn't look like a European cloak. The cloth is not as heavy and is usually white, like Luke's tunic, in order to reflect as much sunlight as possible, thus keeping you cool and preventing sunburn. Obi-Wan's attire is all kinds of wrong for Tatooine, although I bet its not as heavy as the brown coloration implies.
Well, clearly Obi-Wan sometimes dressed correctly for the desert, like in this scene:

Image
;-)

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