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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Posted: 2020-06-29 11:35am
by Eternal_Freedom
ray245 wrote:
2020-06-29 04:57am


Although the history of Star Wars has repeatedly given us female authority figures in civilian dress. Leia in ANH, Mon Mothma in ROTJ. Amidala in TPM. Mon Mothma in Rogue One.

I didn't even think much about Holdo's appearance because I was so used to female leaders appearing in civilian dress in Star Wars.
In fairness, Mothma, Leia (prior to the ST) and Amidala were in civilian dress because they were civilians. Holdo, however, is expressly introduced as a Vice-Admiral, in command of one of the cruisers, and third-in-command overall after Leia and Ackbar, so her not wearing anything approaching a uniform is out of the ordinary.

Actually, coem to think of it, why are we all harping on about Holdo following Leia's plan? Ackbar was there as well, and he's the Fleet officer not Leia, so I wonder how much of this plan was actually his rather than Leia's? She is a leader, politician, diplomat and somewhat skilled commando, commanding multiple warships in space actions is definitely not her forte - which is probably why Ackbar is there.

Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Posted: 2020-06-29 11:39am
by Galvatron
Ackbar was also on D'Qar in TFA though. Was the fleet already supposed to be in orbit during that time?

Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Posted: 2020-06-29 11:44am
by Eternal_Freedom
I honestly can't remember if the fleet was meant to be at the base in TFA. And I'd forgotten that Ackbar was there, I just recalled him being there (and killed) in TLJ.

Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Posted: 2020-06-29 11:46am
by Galvatron
If the fleet was already there, that just raises another question: why didn't the Resistance evacuate as soon as they learned that the Starkiller was charging up again and targeting D'Qar next?

Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Posted: 2020-06-29 12:49pm
by Eternal_Freedom
Because they hadn't written TLJ yet and didn't know they had a fleet. For that matter, how did the FO know to target D'Qar?

Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Posted: 2020-06-29 01:15pm
by tezunegari
Eternal_Freedom wrote:
2020-06-29 12:49pm
Because they hadn't written TLJ yet and didn't know they had a fleet. For that matter, how did the FO know to target D'Qar?
IIRC the Resistance sent a recon ship to find Starkiller base and the FO tracked them back to D'Qar.

Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Posted: 2020-06-29 01:39pm
by Galvatron
Eternal_Freedom wrote:
2020-06-29 12:49pm
Because they hadn't written TLJ yet and didn't know they had a fleet. For that matter, how did the FO know to target D'Qar?
I meant in-universe (obviously). Maybe Holdo was actually in command of the fleet (including the Raddus) while Ackbar was on D'Qar. Hell, she may have been off on some diplomatic mission trying to drum up support for the Resistance when the call came in that the fleet had to make a beeline to their base. That could explain her attire.

Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Posted: 2020-06-29 02:46pm
by Gunhead
Galvatron wrote:
2020-06-29 01:39pm
I meant in-universe (obviously). Maybe Holdo was actually in command of the fleet (including the Raddus) while Ackbar was on D'Qar. Hell, she may have been off on some diplomatic mission trying to drum up support for the Resistance when the call came in that the fleet had to make a beeline to their base. That could explain her attire.
If she was away on a diplomatic mission and didn't have the time change attire, the movie could have and pretty much should have told us so. Actually regardless of reasons if she had excused her attire to those present, like an actual leader of any worth would or at least should do when entering a room of people in uniform you're about to address as their new commanding officer, that would have been fine. This followed by a swift attire change to an actual uniform at the earliest possible moment so people around her at least know what she is, even if they don't personally know her.
As it is presented it just looks stupid and by association makes her look stupid. Btw. Before anyone says "oh but it's a clever subversion of expectations!!!" it's not. It's plain, common as dirt fucking stupid.


-Gunhead

Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Posted: 2020-06-29 02:57pm
by Galvatron
For some reason, the comics decided to reinforce the idea that she dresses like that normally...

Spoiler
Image

Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Posted: 2020-06-29 02:59pm
by tezunegari
Galvatron wrote:
2020-06-29 01:39pm
Eternal_Freedom wrote:
2020-06-29 12:49pm
Because they hadn't written TLJ yet and didn't know they had a fleet. For that matter, how did the FO know to target D'Qar?
I meant in-universe (obviously). Maybe Holdo was actually in command of the fleet (including the Raddus) while Ackbar was on D'Qar. Hell, she may have been off on some diplomatic mission trying to drum up support for the Resistance when the call came in that the fleet had to make a beeline to their base. That could explain her attire.
Larma D'arcy: "Admiral Ackbar and all our leadership is gone."
D'arcy's situation report and introduction of Holdo implies that both the Resistance leadership as well as Fleet Command was killed.
Otherwise, she would have introduced Holdo as "Vice Admiral Holdo" simply because the Fleet Commander should be known by all.
Yet she introduced her as "Vice Admiral Holdo of the Cruiser Ninka", implying that Holdo was at best in command of the Ninka (and the bombers according to a novel IIRC) and not necessarily well known in the Resistance.

And given that the Resistance had enough time to load up the bombers and get them into formation she would have had enough time to change from "diplomatic mission dress" to "pragmatic uniform".
That would have taken her what? 5-10 minutes.

Furthermore, there is no on-screen evidence for a "diplomatic mission" Holdo was on.
So I have to assume that what she is wearing is her normal attire during fleet operations.

At least Leia had the excuse of wearing her Senator dress because she actually has to pose as a Senator during the opening of ANH and is on a senatorial ship posing to be on a diplomatic mission.

Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Posted: 2020-06-29 03:34pm
by Galvatron
All good points. I guess her attire really was ridiculous after all.

Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Posted: 2020-06-29 04:06pm
by Formless
Also worth noting, Leia only wears civilian dress in situations that actually call for it. That is, in A New Hope because she was a senator and using a diplomatic mission as cover for her real mission, while in The Empire Strikes back she changes into a uniform matching the ones worn by the rest of the Hoth command officers. Similarly, in Return of the Jedi Leia is forced to wear the slave outfit by Jabba, but after she kills him that's that. She switches into a Rebel field outfit for the commando mission, because wearing anything else in the forest would be stupid. Finally, in the sequel trilogy she wears pragmatic attire inspired by Han's clothing, showing the effect he has had on her. Moreover, Resistance dress code does appear to be more lax than was considered acceptable in the Rebel Alliance, but everyone not in a proper uniform at least makes an effort to wear pragmatic working clothes... except Holdo. She is the standout for dressing like that. Does she have an excuse in the rest of Disney canon? Frankly, I don't think it matters. Most of the audience doesn't read the comics. But if the comics are doubling down on Holdo just wearing whatever she feels like... well, I think it says a lot about how Disney remembers the original trilogy that they came under the mistaken impression that Rebels wear whatever they felt like, when the reality is that the Rebels clearly had uniforms. Different from Imperial uniforms, but still clearly military uniforms. In fact you know who was the sole exception, the one character in the OT who didn't wear a Rebel uniform despite holding the rank of General? Han. That's it. Even Lando ditched the cape and switched into something that displayed his rank. So maybe we can chalk some of this up to a brain bug.

Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Posted: 2020-06-29 04:26pm
by channel73
ray245 wrote:
2020-06-29 05:47am
Formless wrote:
2020-06-29 05:35am
I've noticed that a lot of people on Youtube who comment on the character focus on the dyed hair, which is actually unique to this character. In fact, the only other Star Wars character I can think of whose hair was dyed an artificial color is Sabine from Rebels. I find that interesting, because in America, dying your hair an unnatural hair color is often seen as unprofessional and immature regardless of the person's sex. The dress code of many workplaces prohibit it, as well as other body modifications like nose rings, and tattoos are often expected to be covered up. Is it unfair? That depends (piercings are often a legitimate safety concern) but in many cases, yeah, I would say so. Does that mean people are going to leave the theater and just forget all the negative associations they've made over their life regarding appropriate attire at the workplace? No.
It's Star Wars! People have odd and strange hairstyle that are seen as completely acceptable. Padme had her make-up on nearly all the time and it's seen as completely formal and appropriate. If Star Wars was a "hardcore or serious" Sci-fi movie where everyone is wearing military uniforms all the time, I can see Holdo's dress and hairstyle as odd. But given that we had the famous Leia buns in the very first Star Wars movie, Holdo's hair don't really standout at all.

If RJ thinks Holdo hairstyle is meant to be taken negatively, I think he really do not understand Star Wars as well as he thought he did.
Holdo is both a person in the Star Wars Universe (where purple hair might just be a common fashion choice among the upper class) and a fictional character written by someone who lives in a world where apparently "purple hair" is sometimes associated with feminism for some reason.

Anyway, to me Holdo was initially just confusing. Like many people, I assumed she was being setup to be some kind of spy or something, because it was just bizarre how she wasn't giving Poe any information. If she was a man, I would have also assumed something weird was happening. If you replace her with a man, we still have the question "hey why is she he not just telling Poe what's going on?"

Or maybe I'm just sexist. I mean, the other major plothole in TLJ that I noticed is that it makes absolutely no sense that Holdo is in command of the entire Fleet, instead of being in the kitchen making me a sandwich. I mean, it just strains credulity and completely breaks suspension of disbelief that she's not making me a sandwich. I just can't wrap my head around it. [/sarcasm]

Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Posted: 2020-06-29 06:15pm
by ray245
Formless wrote:
2020-06-29 04:06pm
Also worth noting, Leia only wears civilian dress in situations that actually call for it. That is, in A New Hope because she was a senator and using a diplomatic mission as cover for her real mission, while in The Empire Strikes back she changes into a uniform matching the ones worn by the rest of the Hoth command officers. Similarly, in Return of the Jedi Leia is forced to wear the slave outfit by Jabba, but after she kills him that's that. She switches into a Rebel field outfit for the commando mission, because wearing anything else in the forest would be stupid. Finally, in the sequel trilogy she wears pragmatic attire inspired by Han's clothing, showing the effect he has had on her. Moreover, Resistance dress code does appear to be more lax than was considered acceptable in the Rebel Alliance, but everyone not in a proper uniform at least makes an effort to wear pragmatic working clothes... except Holdo. She is the standout for dressing like that. Does she have an excuse in the rest of Disney canon? Frankly, I don't think it matters. Most of the audience doesn't read the comics. But if the comics are doubling down on Holdo just wearing whatever she feels like... well, I think it says a lot about how Disney remembers the original trilogy that they came under the mistaken impression that Rebels wear whatever they felt like, when the reality is that the Rebels clearly had uniforms. Different from Imperial uniforms, but still clearly military uniforms. In fact you know who was the sole exception, the one character in the OT who didn't wear a Rebel uniform despite holding the rank of General? Han. That's it. Even Lando ditched the cape and switched into something that displayed his rank. So maybe we can chalk some of this up to a brain bug.
To be fair, the new movies are just a mess of writers and directors making things that happen for the sake of story-telling convenience, even if it makes no sense within the logic of the movies. Yes, storytelling ought to be the primary goal, but there is almost a callous disregard to internal worldbuilding consistency. That disregard for internal consistency might be alright if you're making a one-off movie, but that is deeply problematic for a franchise that relies on internal consistency.

Franchise that disregard internal world-building consistency are very often franchise that loses steam very rapidly, like Transformers and Pirates of the Caribbean.

Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Posted: 2020-06-29 11:26pm
by FaxModem1
Regarding costuming:

Hollywood Reporter
Leia wears this masculine-meets-feminine metallic tweed cape that’s incredibly beautiful.

It was and there were two looks for her: one was a coat and she also wore a cape for the latter part of the film. She was very happy with them, and they were much more of a regal look than she had in Episode 7, because that’s what Rian wanted. One of my references was Queen Elizabeth wearing a military cape in a photograph I found, and I love the way the collar frames her face. We also added a lot of jewelry.

I love the earrings, I was getting an Angela Merkel power earring vibe.

They were really interesting how they were made, they went into the ear themselves and covered the lobe, they were not clip-ons or anything like that; they wound around the ear. Her one ring she wore in Episode 7, but the other jewelry was all newly designed for this film.


I thought when I read the script that Holdo would be wearing a uniform, so I did some uniform designs and showed them to Rian and he said, "Oh no, no, no, no. She’s flirting with Oscar Isaacs’ character, I don’t want her to be in a uniform, I want her to be unique and almost balletic." He said, "I’d like to see her body and her body language, and her silhouette, and have her be more feminine." So I started thinking about feminine balletic design, and something kind of Greek, which made me start thinking about jersey, and then I started thinking about Madame Gres. So that’s where that came from.
I enjoy the thinking here regarding Leia, that she's Queen Elizabeth, in practical clothing for battle while still being regal because she's royalty. Holdo's costume is because....she's flirting with Poe.

That's a yikes.

Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Posted: 2020-06-30 12:34am
by chimericoncogene
FaxModem1 wrote:
2020-06-29 11:26pm
Regarding costuming:

I enjoy the thinking here regarding Leia, that she's Queen Elizabeth, in practical clothing for battle while still being regal because she's royalty. Holdo's costume is because....she's flirting with Poe.

That's a yikes.
You're kidding me. If that's the sort of thinking that drove the ST, that drives moviemaking these days... gaaahhh...

Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Posted: 2020-06-30 01:59am
by Galvatron
At what point did Holdo "flirt" with Poe? Did I completely misread their interaction?

Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Posted: 2020-06-30 02:15am
by The Romulan Republic
Galvatron wrote:
2020-06-30 01:59am
At what point did Holdo "flirt" with Poe? Did I completely misread their interaction?
Yeah, I never once got the vibe that they were flirting on-screen. I wonder if that is something that was discussed early on but got dropped in the course of production, or if it was an idea Rian had but Dern decided to play it differently (if so, then good for her- its a stupid, offensive idea that would undercut both characters). It certainly makes little sense for Holdo to have chosen her wardrobe to flirt with Poe in-universe, since she had not met him prior to appearing at the briefing.

Either way, though, Holdo is in no way unique in wearing a dress as a military officer. Leia does as well, and no, she's clearly not a civilian at this point. Or is Leia supposed to be flirting with Poe too? :lol: In fact, pretty much ever criticism of Holdo could be made of Leia as well, but Leia largely gets a pass, because OT worship.

Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Posted: 2020-06-30 03:11am
by FaxModem1
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-06-30 02:15am
Galvatron wrote:
2020-06-30 01:59am
At what point did Holdo "flirt" with Poe? Did I completely misread their interaction?
Yeah, I never once got the vibe that they were flirting on-screen. I wonder if that is something that was discussed early on but got dropped in the course of production, or if it was an idea Rian had but Dern decided to play it differently (if so, then good for her- its a stupid, offensive idea that would undercut both characters). It certainly makes little sense for Holdo to have chosen her wardrobe to flirt with Poe in-universe, since she had not met him prior to appearing at the briefing.

Either way, though, Holdo is in no way unique in wearing a dress as a military officer. Leia does as well, and no, she's clearly not a civilian at this point. Or is Leia supposed to be flirting with Poe too? :lol: In fact, pretty much ever criticism of Holdo could be made of Leia as well, but Leia largely gets a pass, because OT worship.
Well, it doesn't make sense in-universe, but Out-of-universe, that's the reasoning given to the costume designer by the director, because he wanted Holdo to be flirting with Poe. Leia's dress design, out-of-universe, was to resonate her with Queen Elizabeth in World War II, which works very well, IMO.

So, if we're going to be discussing themes, we HAVE to remember that what the Director intended, was for Holdo to be flirting with Poe at some point, and he wanted her to do so via body language, hence the dress. This is if you want to stick with Doylist reasoning for things. This also kills my upper class vs lower class interpretation that I got when initially watching the film, as I thought she was supposed to mesh with the rich aristocratic snobs on Canto Bight in the film. And no, it's not a subversion of that either, it's because the director wanted her to flirt via body language with Poe. Which, I think we can all agree, is very stupid. It also brings up unwanted connotations about sexual harassment in the workplace and potentially Rian Johnson's views on it being okay if it's a female boss doing it to a male subordinate.

(sarcasm)I'm wondering if they were going to have Holdo do an interpretative dance scene in the film or something to justify the need for 'body language'.(/sarcasm)

So, that's part of the dialogue of the creative team's intent for the characters. If you want to avoid that, and go Death of the Author, pure Watsonian, we have to deal with what seems like questionable choices by the Resistance leader towards a subordinate regarding communication and morale(and apparently latitude from the Resistance in regards to uniformity, but that's honestly not as important IMO), for whatever reason. In the film, as quoted in this thread, Poe asks a question, and I must stress this, he is doing so politely and with respect. He gets rebuffed for doing so, and is told to go away and is insulted for his trouble.

This is questionable leadership on Holdo's part. It's her first meeting with a subordinate. If we're being charitable, her friend Leia and who knows who else just got spaced and she might be flustered from the situation. However, she had plenty of time(the course of the day), to say to Poe, when he is still asking politely, 'What are we going to do? What's the plan?', to apologize for her earlier behavior, saying that she was stressed, and take him aside and explain that she's trying to keep things secret for OPSEC reasons, or because she doesn't know who to trust, or because she needs him to do XYZ while other things are needed for ABC, etc. Or can send him on meaningless assignments that are still productive to get small things done like helping load the transports, help with morale, or assess their needs and bring those to her, or a dozen other things that would have kept him occupied, and also help his morale since he would be accomplishing something. The Japanese even have a word for this.

LINK
matsurikomu (祭り込む), which is translated to "place an obnoxious person in an out-of-the-way post to be rid of him.
Note, telling him to just sit in one spot for 18 hours as "return to your post" is a bad version of doing that, since he's not doing anything, and just tweedling his thumbs, when he could be useful lifting boxes. Because any able bodied idiot can help lift boxes, and they're kind of pressed for time, and more people moving things like fuel, rations, survival gear, long range communication equipment, etc. into transports increases their chances of survival.

That she does not do this is concerning, because it means that she's bad at handling a subordinate, whether it's because she has never had to deal with a subordinate asking questions before, has issues with inheriting subordinates who she doesn't like, uses subordinates to relieve herself of stress via insults, has the hots for Poe and is overdoing it in the discipline department so that she doesn't appear as flirty, or is really bad in moments of crisis, or some combination of the above.

Again, this is why we find her troublesome as a leader, because while Poe is acting like an idiot at points, good leaders can usually steer idiots towards more productive means, and that Holdo started the argument.

Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Posted: 2020-06-30 04:33am
by ray245
If RJ thinks Holdo is supposed to be flirting with Poe, he's an idiot if he thinks what we saw on screen can be seen as flirting.

At this point I'm not surprised if he really thinks what is depicted on screen actually fulfilled what he intends to be perceived by the audience.

Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Posted: 2020-06-30 04:34am
by ray245
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-06-30 02:15am
Galvatron wrote:
2020-06-30 01:59am
At what point did Holdo "flirt" with Poe? Did I completely misread their interaction?
Yeah, I never once got the vibe that they were flirting on-screen. I wonder if that is something that was discussed early on but got dropped in the course of production, or if it was an idea Rian had but Dern decided to play it differently (if so, then good for her- its a stupid, offensive idea that would undercut both characters). It certainly makes little sense for Holdo to have chosen her wardrobe to flirt with Poe in-universe, since she had not met him prior to appearing at the briefing.

Either way, though, Holdo is in no way unique in wearing a dress as a military officer. Leia does as well, and no, she's clearly not a civilian at this point. Or is Leia supposed to be flirting with Poe too? :lol: In fact, pretty much ever criticism of Holdo could be made of Leia as well, but Leia largely gets a pass, because OT worship.
I think at this point we should stop thinking of Rian Johnson as this great supporter of feminism if he thinks the role of a female leader is to flirt with her subordinates. Or he has some really kinky ideas about what counts as flirting.

Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Posted: 2020-06-30 08:10am
by Civil War Man
I had heard about RJ's thing about having Holdo flirt with Poe before. I do hope that was something that ended up not making it into the final product, because if what we saw on screen was that vision fulfilled, that would make Holdo a massive scumbag. It takes some mental gymnastics, but the initial interaction where Poe asks about the plan and Holdo dresses him down for it could theoretically be interpreted as flirting...if you assume the dressing down is Holdo trying to neg Poe. So, yeah, I sincerely hope that wasn't RJ's idea of flirting, because then it would be revealing some very unfortunate attitudes on his part.

Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Posted: 2020-06-30 09:00am
by ray245
Civil War Man wrote:
2020-06-30 08:10am
I had heard about RJ's thing about having Holdo flirt with Poe before. I do hope that was something that ended up not making it into the final product, because if what we saw on screen was that vision fulfilled, that would make Holdo a massive scumbag. It takes some mental gymnastics, but the initial interaction where Poe asks about the plan and Holdo dresses him down for it could theoretically be interpreted as flirting...if you assume the dressing down is Holdo trying to neg Poe. So, yeah, I sincerely hope that wasn't RJ's idea of flirting, because then it would be revealing some very unfortunate attitudes on his part.
Even so, what's the point of even having a superior flirt with their subordinate in the first place? Regardless of their gender, this is still an issue of imbalanced power dynamics.

Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Posted: 2020-06-30 10:41am
by Galvatron
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-06-30 02:15am
In fact, pretty much ever criticism of Holdo could be made of Leia as well, but Leia largely gets a pass, because OT worship.
I think Leia generally gets a pass because Carrie Fisher died prior to the film's release and because her attire was at least somewhat explained in (I think) the novelization being as her "Alderaanian mourning garb" because Han just died.

Put all that aside and, yeah, her attire was stupid too.

Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Posted: 2020-06-30 12:14pm
by channel73
ray245 wrote:
2020-06-30 04:33am
If RJ thinks Holdo is supposed to be flirting with Poe, he's an idiot if he thinks what we saw on screen can be seen as flirting.

At this point I'm not surprised if he really thinks what is depicted on screen actually fulfilled what he intends to be perceived by the audience.
Who knows. There's no actual flirting, but there's a line of dialogue somewhere that indicates Holdo is at least attracted to him (I think she jokes with Leia at one point about it - I think they call him cute.)

Regardless, the whole thing is stupid. They're in an extreme life-or-death situation and down to like 100 crew members and the entire Galaxy is being conquered by fanatical assholes, so any levity at this point in the script comes off as a bit weird.