New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-06-24 08:15am

A couple more general points, which I feel should be a separate post from my response to ray because they are, as I say, more general in nature than a specific response to him:

First, by any normal quantifiable metric, Holdo did a fantastic job:

Casualty rates? There are only two observed casualties in the Resistance under her command: the captain of the medical frigate, and herself. Every other casualty is under Leia and Ackbar's leadership, or Poe's. And the vast majority are a direct or indirect consequence of Poe's fuck-ups and insubordination.

Casualty ratios? She killed a fucking fleet, probably the largest we've ever seen assembled on-screen in the franchise, for the loss of one cruiser that was basically scrap in a few minutes anyway, and one life- her own.

Accomplishing objectives? She managed to successfully evacuate her personnel despite Poe's pathetic attempt at a mutiny. You could argue that she had Leia's help in that, and that the transports were ultimately exposed, but the transports were only exposed as a direct consequence of Poe's idiocy and insubordination, and the betrayal of someone who should never have been privy to the plan to begin with.

The grounds for condemning her, meanwhile, rely heavily on either taking Poe's opinion at face value, or subjective impressions, ie you personally weren't impressed by her speech.

And yeah, there was a mutiny. Carried about by basically Poe and his friends, in which most of the crew took no part, and which was promptly thwarted. Given that moral was already in tatters the moment Holdo took command, the fact that she managed to keep most of the crew focussed on their jobs is pretty good. What, was she supposed to convince the entire crew that they weren't completely fucked in the space of 12 hours, all evidence to the contrary, by just saying the words "I have a plan"? Please. But sure, she could have headed it off if she had locked up Poe much earlier. If that is her great failure as a leader, then it hardly vindicates Poe.

So, Holdo inherited a god-awful situation, a vastly-outnumbered fleet with almost no fuel, cornered by a ruthless foe who would give no quarter, with a decapitated command staff and disintegrating moral, was undermined by one of her own officers at every turn, and still managed to save a bunch of her people, accomplish the mission, and kill an entire capital ship fleet in the process. Ackbar couldn't have done better. Vader couldn't have done better. Fucking Thrawn couldn't have done better. And Poe sure as shit couldn't have done better.

Holdo is a fucking bad ass, and one of the most capable and successful fleet commanders in Star Wars canon.

Secondly, while there are of course many reasons why a person might not like a character, I truly do not believe that she would get as much criticism and outright hatred if she were a male character undertaking the exact same actions, because of course she wouldn't. This should not be a controversial or offensive statement. If we can acknowledge widespread racial bias and white privilege in our society, we can acknowledge widespread gender bias and male privilege. There's no shame in admitting that you have it- You have it, I have it, every male has it. Refusing to acknowledge or examine or confront it, though... now that is something to be ashamed of.
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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by NecronLord » 2020-06-24 08:39am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-06-24 08:15am
Casualty ratios? She killed a fucking fleet, probably the largest we've ever seen assembled on-screen in the franchise, for the loss of one cruiser that was basically scrap in a few minutes anyway, and one life- her own.


:wtf:

If we're talking about 'on screen' and not just the silver screen we even have this at 4:42.

If we're talking about starship tonnage there's this one.

I like Holdo but this is a silly claim.
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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by ray245 » 2020-06-24 08:42am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-06-24 07:39am
Where are you getting that from? What evidence do you have that Johnson sees everything in binary terms? That's one critique I've never heard before- if anything he does so less than the norm for a franchise based on a metaphysical duality between Light and Dark.
I need to clarify that. I mean binary in terms of if one person is right, the other person is wrong. So Poe being wrong does not validate Holdo's decision and capability as a leader. The set-up and the reverse-revelation does not work because the premise is based on a binary attitude towards characterisation.
I also see you have skated right over all the points as to why Holdo's leadership was not generally demoralizing (she inherited a demoralized crew, we see things mostly from Poe's perspective, not that of the crew as a whole, most of the crew did not support the mutiny, Holdo had other priorities than assuaging each individual officer, etc.) to just repeat the assertion. You also ignored where I just EXPLICITLY POINTED OUT the set-up for the reveal (Poe getting a bunch of people killed by disobeying orders, Leia demoting him for it).
The mutiny gained traction after the speech. The crew was demoralised, but Holdo made the situation worse by having a public argument in front of the entire crew. The initial question raised by Poe was not really confrontational, until Holdo made the whole thing confrontational. Escalating an argument in front of everyone is not the way to go about it from a leadership perspective.

Vendetta wrote:
2020-06-24 08:00am
Yeah, and that's completely normal for any form of operational planning. What, do you expect the whole plan to be announced over the ship's PA or something?

At the very least the whole command staff knew what was going on. When Poe has his tantrum on the bridge about the transport ships being unarmed nobody else agrees with his concern, which implies that everyone else present knows that it isn't actually a valid concern.

All the people who would be expected to know about something in operational planning in any form of military seem to know. The people who don't know are people like hangar crew, fighter pilots, and maintainance staff who would not be expected to be told anyway until it was time to actually execute the plan and they needed to be briefed on their part in executing it, and Poe because he got specifically excluded from decisionmaking because he's a fuckup who can't be trusted.
Kaydel Ko Connix didn't know about it. And she was the one in charge of monitoring people leaving the fleet and monitoring Poe as a bridge officer.
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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by ray245 » 2020-06-24 08:50am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-06-24 08:15am
A couple more general points, which I feel should be a separate post from my response to ray because they are, as I say, more general in nature than a specific response to him:

First, by any normal quantifiable metric, Holdo did a fantastic job:

Casualty rates? There are only two observed casualties in the Resistance under her command: the captain of the medical frigate, and herself. Every other casualty is under Leia and Ackbar's leadership, or Poe's. And the vast majority are a direct or indirect consequence of Poe's fuck-ups and insubordination.

Casualty ratios? She killed a fucking fleet, probably the largest we've ever seen assembled on-screen in the franchise, for the loss of one cruiser that was basically scrap in a few minutes anyway, and one life- her own.

Accomplishing objectives? She managed to successfully evacuate her personnel despite Poe's pathetic attempt at a mutiny. You could argue that she had Leia's help in that, and that the transports were ultimately exposed, but the transports were only exposed as a direct consequence of Poe's idiocy and insubordination, and the betrayal of someone who should never have been privy to the plan to begin with.

The grounds for condemning her, meanwhile, rely heavily on either taking Poe's opinion at face value, or subjective impressions, ie you personally weren't impressed by her speech.

And yeah, there was a mutiny. Carried about by basically Poe and his friends, in which most of the crew took no part, and which was promptly thwarted. Given that moral was already in tatters the moment Holdo took command, the fact that she managed to keep most of the crew focussed on their jobs is pretty good. What, was she supposed to convince the entire crew that they weren't completely fucked in the space of 12 hours, all evidence to the contrary, by just saying the words "I have a plan"? Please. But sure, she could have headed it off if she had locked up Poe much earlier. If that is her great failure as a leader, then it hardly vindicates Poe.

So, Holdo inherited a god-awful situation, a vastly-outnumbered fleet with almost no fuel, cornered by a ruthless foe who would give no quarter, with a decapitated command staff and disintegrating moral, was undermined by one of her own officers at every turn, and still managed to save a bunch of her people, accomplish the mission, and kill an entire capital ship fleet in the process. Ackbar couldn't have done better. Vader couldn't have done better. Fucking Thrawn couldn't have done better. And Poe sure as shit couldn't have done better.

Holdo is a fucking bad ass, and one of the most capable and successful fleet commanders in Star Wars canon.

Secondly, while there are of course many reasons why a person might not like a character, I truly do not believe that she would get as much criticism and outright hatred if she were a male character undertaking the exact same actions, because of course she wouldn't. This should not be a controversial or offensive statement. If we can acknowledge widespread racial bias and white privilege in our society, we can acknowledge widespread gender bias and male privilege. There's no shame in admitting that you have it- You have it, I have it, every male has it. Refusing to acknowledge or examine or confront it, though... now that is something to be ashamed of.
For fuck sake, TRR. Stop using her gender as a way to shield her from criticism. That is sexism. Yes, there are many, many misogynists that specifically hates Holdo because she is a female character. But that does not mean a female character do not have flaws as a character and as a leader. No one is talking about her gender in the current thread but you. You are the one that specifically brings up her gender when no one in this thread is criticising her leadership on the basis of her gender. Being female does not mean you cannot make mistakes.

The main critique of Holdo in this thread is primarily about how he handles and deals with subordinates, which is the primary task of leadership. It's about crisis management and managing the people under you. It's your job to make sure your subordinates do not screw things up for you.

If anything, Holdo embodies some of the worst aspect of toxic male leadership based on what we saw on screen. Getting into a shouting match in public with your subordinates to show "who is boss" is some of the most problematic issue with male leadership. Because those are essentially all about treating leadership as a dick-waving contest. That is what we saw in her confrontation with Poe.
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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by Vendetta » 2020-06-24 09:04am

ray245 wrote:
2020-06-24 08:42am
The mutiny gained traction after the speech. The crew was demoralised, but Holdo made the situation worse by having a public argument in front of the entire crew. The initial question raised by Poe was not really confrontational, until Holdo made the whole thing confrontational. Escalating an argument in front of everyone is not the way to go about it from a leadership perspective.
You mean Poe made it worse by having a public tantrum in the middle of the bridge. Like full on throwing things off of desks angry toddler tantrum.

When Holdo tells Poe off she takes him aside and tells him, quietly and calmly, the reasons why he is out of the loop.

Subsequently when Poe finds out about the transports being fuelled he explodes in the middle of the bridge and publicly and loudly calls his CO a coward and a traitor in front of the entire staff before being removed from the bridge (scene from 1:26:45 Disney Plus version). That's when he goes and enacts his mutiny because Holdo was still soft on him and doesn't lock him in the brig where he should have been all along. Holdo does not "get into a shouting match" with him, she waits quietly for him to shut his jackass yap and then has him removed from the bridge, she even stops security personnel from tackling him before he's finished.

Holdo shows Poe far more forbearance than he deserves, repeatedly. It's not a shouting match when only one of them is doing any shouting. At no point in the movie does Holdo so much as raise her voice to Poe. She speaks calmly and quietly to him personally every time they interact.

Also note that his mutiny actually fails quite quickly and relies on him sealing himself and his mutineers in the bridge, that's not evidence of widespread discontent among the crew, but that Poe's clique and few people he was able to persuade were able to temporarily seize control before being subdued by the larger loyal contingent.

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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-06-24 09:36am

ray245 wrote:
2020-06-24 08:50am
For fuck sake, TRR. Stop using her gender as a way to shield her from criticism.
We all have biases. I do. And so do you. I don't think anyone in this thread is consciously thinking "I hate Holdo because she's a woman and Poe is entitled because he's a man." But that doesn't mean that privilege and bias doesn't shape how a character is perceived.
That is sexism.
"No, YOU'RE the sexist!" :roll:

I will note that I very carefully did not address that critique at any specific person here, but I knew that it wouldn't matter. Any suggestion that sexism might play any role in the response to TLJ (because of course it does, or are you seriously going to argue that male privilege, and resulting bias, is not a thing?) has certain people on this board frothing at the mouth, and taking it as a personal attack- which always makes me think you doth protest too much.

It is absolutely ridiculous that I receive a deluge of outrage, get accused of "using" sexism, get told I'm the real sexist, etc, every time I even hint at the fact that sexism plays a role in the response to this film. Because of course it does, because after literally thousands of years of global patriarchy, sexism is woven into every single aspect of our society, often in ways so subtle and pervasive that we don't even know its there. It is part of the story, I can't honestly discuss the films or the response to them without bringing it up, and if people can't deal with that then I'll just have to deal with being hated for it, because I won't censor myself on this to assuage anybody's insecurity.
Yes, there are many, many misogynists that specifically hates Holdo because she is a female character.
Then, since my post was not directed at you specifically, what is your objection? Why do you take it as a personal attack?
But that does not mean a female character do not have flaws as a character and as a leader.
I never said it did. Straw man.
No one is talking about her gender in the current thread but you. You are the one that specifically brings up her gender when no one in this thread is criticising her leadership on the basis of her gender. Being female does not mean you cannot make mistakes.
I never said it did. Straw man.
The main critique of Holdo in this thread is primarily about how he handles and deals with subordinates, which is the primary task of leadership. It's about crisis management and managing the people under you. It's your job to make sure your subordinates do not screw things up for you.
There is zero solid evidence that she dealt poorly with any subordinate but Poe. The only evidence that she dealt poorly with Poe was not throwing him in the brig. She had no obligation to tell him specifically more than she did, and very good reason not to.
If anything, Holdo embodies some of the worst aspect of toxic male leadership based on what we saw on screen. Getting into a shouting match in public with your subordinates to show "who is boss" is some of the most problematic issue with male leadership. Because those are essentially all about treating leadership as a dick-waving contest. That is what we saw in her confrontation with Poe.
Given that I cannot recall Holdo ever "getting into a shouting match" with Poe (I do recall him shouting hysterically at her in the middle of the bridge), I am going to ask for a link to a clip, as I suspect this is just another example of the "I know you are but what am I" approach to rebuttal.
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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-06-24 09:41am

NecronLord wrote:
2020-06-24 08:39am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-06-24 08:15am
Casualty ratios? She killed a fucking fleet, probably the largest we've ever seen assembled on-screen in the franchise, for the loss of one cruiser that was basically scrap in a few minutes anyway, and one life- her own.


:wtf:

If we're talking about 'on screen' and not just the silver screen we even have this at 4:42.

If we're talking about starship tonnage there's this one.

I like Holdo but this is a silly claim.
I'll concede that that may be an exaggeration, I haven't run the numbers. Its certainly not the biggest by volume if you count the Death Star. But the Supremacy alone is many times the volume and presumably mass of an Executor class ship, and could contain hundreds of Venators easily (which appeared to be the bulk of the Republic fleet at Coruscant). Its over 60 kilometers wide, in addition to its numerous escorts.

In any case, it scarcely alters the larger point, which is that Holdo achieved some extraordinary successes under one of the most adverse situations imaginable. Ones which by all rights should secure the character's place as one of the biggest heroes and bad asses in the franchise.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.

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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by ray245 » 2020-06-24 10:22am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-06-24 09:36am
We all have biases. I do. And so do you. I don't think anyone in this thread is consciously thinking "I hate Holdo because she's a woman and Poe is entitled because he's a man." But that doesn't mean that privilege and bias doesn't shape how a character is perceived.
I am well aware that I do have my bias. But having a bias does not mean we cannot critique female characters in leadership position. As a man, is it not possible to critique female character while being well aware of deep-seated problem in real world sexism?
"No, YOU'RE the sexist!" :roll:
Defending a character from critique on primarily from the basis of the character's gender is problematic because you are putting people on a pedestal.
I will note that I very carefully did not address that critique at any specific person here, but I knew that it wouldn't matter. Any suggestion that sexism might play any role in the response to TLJ (because of course it does, or are you seriously going to argue that male privilege, and resulting bias, is not a thing?) has certain people on this board frothing at the mouth, and taking it as a personal attack- which always makes me think you doth protest too much.
I acknowledge it is a thing. But that does not mean all criticism have to come from a position of a male privilege and bias. Otherwise, you end up in a logical fallacy in which all female cannot be criticised.
It is absolutely ridiculous that I receive a deluge of outrage, get accused of "using" sexism, get told I'm the real sexist, etc, every time I even hint at the fact that sexism plays a role in the response to this film. Because of course it does, because after literally thousands of years of global patriarchy, sexism is woven into every single aspect of our society, often in ways so subtle and pervasive that we don't even know its there. It is part of the story, I can't honestly discuss the films or the response to them without bringing it up, and if people can't deal with that then I'll just have to deal with being hated for it, because I won't censor myself on this to assuage anybody's insecurity.
Because you are mistaking the noise for the content. Yes, there is a big problem with sexism in the Star Wars fandom, but that does not mean every criticism is invalidated just because person X has a bias. Otherwise it is an association fallacy.

Then, since my post was not directed at you specifically, what is your objection? Why do you take it as a personal attack?
Because what is the point of bringing it up otherwise? Is my critique of the character's flaw based primarily in sexism? If not, then what is the point of you specifically bringing it up in this thread?
I never said it did. Straw man.
That is the implication I am getting from you, even if you did not state it outright.
I never said it did. Straw man.
Then why the point that Holdo is subjected to unfair sexist critique that is specifically brought up in the current discussion?
There is zero solid evidence that she dealt poorly with any subordinate but Poe. The only evidence that she dealt poorly with Poe was not throwing him in the brig. She had no obligation to tell him specifically more than she did, and very good reason not to.
Her action cause her to lost trust amongst others under her command. Rose lost trust in her. Kaydel Ko Connix lost trust in her. How she deals with Poe in public can affect how she deals with other subordinate as well, because every action you do as a leader is an example of how you will deal with other subordinates.
Given that I cannot recall Holdo ever "getting into a shouting match" with Poe (I do recall him shouting hysterically at her in the middle of the bridge), I am going to ask for a link to a clip, as I suspect this is just another example of the "I know you are but what am I" approach to rebuttal.


I concede it is not quite a shouting match, but certainly an argument and having insults thrown at each other in public.
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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by ray245 » 2020-06-24 10:31am

Vendetta wrote:
2020-06-24 09:04am
You mean Poe made it worse by having a public tantrum in the middle of the bridge. Like full on throwing things off of desks angry toddler tantrum.
Yes? Poe is an idiot and not behaving as one expected of an officer. But part of the reason for throwing a public tantrum is because he was out of the loop and things seems to be getting worse without a plan in sight.
When Holdo tells Poe off she takes him aside and tells him, quietly and calmly, the reasons why he is out of the loop.
See the clip posted above. Needlessly reminding him of his demotion does nothing to help anyone. Bringing up his character flaws does nothing to help anyone. Those action just make Poe more confrontational and more unwilling to respect the authority of Holdo.
Subsequently when Poe finds out about the transports being fuelled he explodes in the middle of the bridge and publicly and loudly calls his CO a coward and a traitor in front of the entire staff before being removed from the bridge (scene from 1:26:45 Disney Plus version). That's when he goes and enacts his mutiny because Holdo was still soft on him and doesn't lock him in the brig where he should have been all along. Holdo does not "get into a shouting match" with him, she waits quietly for him to shut his jackass yap and then has him removed from the bridge, she even stops security personnel from tackling him before he's finished.
Poe should be locked up at that point. But his shouting match also comes from a point of desperation from someone that sees unarmed transport ships with people getting blown up one after another. His confrontational attitude with Holdo comes in part because of the lack of trust betweeen the senior leadership and the junior leadership.
Holdo shows Poe far more forbearance than he deserves, repeatedly. It's not a shouting match when only one of them is doing any shouting. At no point in the movie does Holdo so much as raise her voice to Poe. She speaks calmly and quietly to him personally every time they interact.
It is not a shouting match as I remembered it, but there is certainly a bunch of needless insults being thrown at Poe when they first met. Speaking calmly and softly does not mean she is not making the situation worse. What is the point of calling him a flyboy in public?
Also note that his mutiny actually fails quite quickly and relies on him sealing himself and his mutineers in the bridge, that's not evidence of widespread discontent among the crew, but that Poe's clique and few people he was able to persuade were able to temporarily seize control before being subdued by the larger loyal contingent.
There's widespread desertion going on in the fleet. Even Rose, who barely knows Poe but is instrumental in making Holdo's plan work almost immediately jump along with Poe's plan of a mutiny.
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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by Vendetta » 2020-06-24 11:17am

ray245 wrote:
2020-06-24 10:31am

Yes? Poe is an idiot and not behaving as one expected of an officer. But part of the reason for throwing a public tantrum is because he was out of the loop and things seems to be getting worse without a plan in sight.
He throws the tantrum when he finds out what the plan is. It's not that there wasn't a plan in sight at that point, it's that he didn't like the plan.
See the clip posted above. Needlessly reminding him of his demotion does nothing to help anyone. Bringing up his character flaws does nothing to help anyone. Those action just make Poe more confrontational and more unwilling to respect the authority of Holdo.
Yeah, but that's a feature of Poe's character that Holdo can't change. He's unwilling to accept her in a position of authority (which, remember, he regards as being rightfully his, he expected to be put in charge), and does absolutely nothing at any point which show that he has any respect for her as a superior or is willing to respect behavioural propriety to a superior officer. It wasn't even needless to remind him of his demotion, it was very specifically part of the reasons he wasn't involved. If he'd learned anything from it he wouldn't have been up in his CO's personal space badgering them with questions. If she'd done this loudly to humiliate him in front of everyone, that would have been needless, but that's not what happened.

What Holdo does here is the soft touch. She doesn't make an issue of his impropriety to a superior officer, getting all up in her personal space, she doesn't publicly dress him down as she would be entitled to do, she reminds him why he's not involved, personally without involving others.

There's no way to handle Poe "better" here that doesn't involve removing him from the possibility of fucking things up for everyone by confining him to quarters or throwing him in the brig. The first disciplinary action didn't produce a learning experience and led to further ill behaviour, Poe is past the point of deserving patient understanding from his commanders and so it's not a strike against them for not coddling him.
Poe should be locked up at that point. But his shouting match also comes from a point of desperation from someone that sees unarmed transport ships with people getting blown up one after another. His confrontational attitude with Holdo comes in part because of the lack of trust betweeen the senior leadership and the junior leadership.
But it's not "the junior leadership". It's him. It's Poe personally, who starts out the movie demonstrating that he can't be trusted.
It is not a shouting match as I remembered it, but there is certainly a bunch of needless insults being thrown at Poe when they first met. Speaking calmly and softly does not mean she is not making the situation worse. What is the point of calling him a flyboy in public?
It's a common nickname for pilots? It's not an insult, and she never actually insults him, she points out the flaws in his character which make him unsuitable for command in the current situation. He is insulted by being called out on them because he's a dipshit with ego problems who doesn't respect his CO because he thinks he should be in charge.
There's widespread desertion going on in the fleet. Even Rose, who barely knows Poe but is instrumental in making Holdo's plan work almost immediately jump along with Poe's plan of a mutiny.
Rose is nowhere near the ship when the mutiny happens. She's also a grunt tier mechanic and is not instrumental in Holdo's plan at all, you can tell given how she deserts long before the plan is anywhere near execution and her absence isn't noticed. And frankly if one grunt tier mechanic is enough to keep people away from the escape pods not, y'know, a security detail that doesn't make the problem look terribly widespread...

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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by NecronLord » 2020-06-24 11:53am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-06-24 09:41am
In any case, it scarcely alters the larger point, which is that Holdo achieved some extraordinary successes under one of the most adverse situations imaginable. Ones which by all rights should secure the character's place as one of the biggest heroes and bad asses in the franchise.
Of course it comes across as unbelievable that she does that when other commanders never try the hyper-ramming manouver. It's essentially a failing of worldbuilding, or rather showing worldbuilding.

If it is it the old 'six planetary radii hyperlimit' in which case the fault sits with General Hux for being so incompetent as to venture into open space. Most non-experts in Star Wars lore were just scratching their heads about why that wasn't a thing everyone does. They didn't sell her plan as a brilliant and convoluted maneuver but as simply something they could have started doing 7 films ago.
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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by ray245 » 2020-06-24 01:20pm

Vendetta wrote:
2020-06-24 11:17am
He throws the tantrum when he finds out what the plan is. It's not that there wasn't a plan in sight at that point, it's that he didn't like the plan.
Considering the extent of his knowledge about the plan is "we're running away" when that has been shown to be an near impossible task due to hyperspace tracking ( in fact Poe's own plan is also about helping the resistance escape), that's understandable. He's desperate for a one-last hooray because all other options do not seem realistic to him.

Yeah, but that's a feature of Poe's character that Holdo can't change. He's unwilling to accept her in a position of authority (which, remember, he regards as being rightfully his, he expected to be put in charge), and does absolutely nothing at any point which show that he has any respect for her as a superior or is willing to respect behavioural propriety to a superior officer. It wasn't even needless to remind him of his demotion, it was very specifically part of the reasons he wasn't involved. If he'd learned anything from it he wouldn't have been up in his CO's personal space badgering them with questions. If she'd done this loudly to humiliate him in front of everyone, that would have been needless, but that's not what happened.
He's asking for a plan, not necessary to be placed in charge. He even accept the fact that he has been demoted. Further name-calling is plain unnecessary.

As someone in leadership position, I simply do not think there is any situation in which you can justify name-calling. If my boss starts name-calling people that have fucked up, my opinion of my boss is not going to be good.

What Holdo does here is the soft touch. She doesn't make an issue of his impropriety to a superior officer, getting all up in her personal space, she doesn't publicly dress him down as she would be entitled to do, she reminds him why he's not involved, personally without involving others.

There's no way to handle Poe "better" here that doesn't involve removing him from the possibility of fucking things up for everyone by confining him to quarters or throwing him in the brig. The first disciplinary action didn't produce a learning experience and led to further ill behaviour, Poe is past the point of deserving patient understanding from his commanders and so it's not a strike against them for not coddling him.
Yes there is. Stop name-calling him.
But it's not "the junior leadership". It's him. It's Poe personally, who starts out the movie demonstrating that he can't be trusted.
His backers for the mutiny are the people in more junior officer position. The fact that Poe still holds an officer rank even after his demotion means his authority as a junior leadership has not been revoked by him.
It's a common nickname for pilots? It's not an insult, and she never actually insults him, she points out the flaws in his character which make him unsuitable for command in the current situation. He is insulted by being called out on them because he's a dipshit with ego problems who doesn't respect his CO because he thinks he should be in charge.
I would absolutely see it as an insult, because it's specifically used in a context to degenerate him. Flyboy is used in this case to imply all the negative sterotypes of the "flyboy" persona.

Even if you personally do not think of it as an insult, the fact that many people other than you can take it that way meant it must be understood as an insult. That's how insults work in real-life. Just because you might not find a term used against you to be personally insulting does not invalidate other people view that such term can be used in an insulting manner.

It's like saying calling someone "boy" or "girl" is not insulting, while you completely ignore the context which makes such terms insulting.

Rose is nowhere near the ship when the mutiny happens. She's also a grunt tier mechanic and is not instrumental in Holdo's plan at all, you can tell given how she deserts long before the plan is anywhere near execution and her absence isn't noticed. And frankly if one grunt tier mechanic is enough to keep people away from the escape pods not, y'know, a security detail that doesn't make the problem look terribly widespread...
Rose was involved in the plan of Poe. Just because she is not near the mutiny does not mean she didn't join in on them. She's a grunt mechanic that is responsible for the cloaking device that made Holdo plan's work in the first place. Rose kept people from the escape pods because she was actively camping at the escape pods and aggressively stunning people trying to escape. If most of the escape pods are in a centralised location, one person is enough to hinder many people from escaping. Especially after the fact that the hangar bay of the ship was blown up by Kylo Ren.
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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by ray245 » 2020-06-24 01:24pm

NecronLord wrote:
2020-06-24 11:53am
Of course it comes across as unbelievable that she does that when other commanders never try the hyper-ramming manouver. It's essentially a failing of worldbuilding, or rather showing worldbuilding.

If it is it the old 'six planetary radii hyperlimit' in which case the fault sits with General Hux for being so incompetent as to venture into open space. Most non-experts in Star Wars lore were just scratching their heads about why that wasn't a thing everyone does. They didn't sell her plan as a brilliant and convoluted maneuver but as simply something they could have started doing 7 films ago.
Moreover, if Holdo's success is down to just plain old luck ( or will of the force), that does not necessary make her a good commander. Relying on luck simply means you are lucky, and it does not mean you are good at strategy or anything else.
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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by NecronLord » 2020-06-24 02:39pm

I'm actually prepared to imagine it's Holdo having the will to blow up the Rebellion's largest remaining military asset (which is admirable) and Hux having gotten his job being nepotism (we also know this) being completely unqualified to command the chase.

Captain Canady should have been the Admiral, and Hux should at best have been a captain. Hux's incompetence is a fact established earlier in the film.

The 6 planetary radii hyperlimit allowing the manouver and Hux just not thinking of that actually works for me, but that should have been set up on screen.
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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by FaxModem1 » 2020-06-24 03:15pm

The plothole we have here, if Poe was the only person not briefed on the plan, is why Connix didn't just tell him what was going on, but instead was willing to join in on the mutiny, and had time to discuss her role in the mutiny, but clearly didn't tell Poe what they were up to. She was clearly there for all the preparations on the bridge, and joined the mutiny anyway. It also makes the rest of the Resistance look rather callous if Poe is freaking out in public about people dying, and no one is going over to tell him, "You know it's all a trick right? We'll be fine because of the plan."

And Poe didn't have a 'tantrum' until the last ship exploded, because it looked like Holdo was leading everyone to their deaths, and had no plan beyond everyone dying a few hours later in transports as the First Order takes potshots at them. It looks, from his perspective, that Poe is the only person worried about that their staying the course is only getting them killed, and he's the only one aware of this. As the scene posted both by myself and ray245 shows, Poe isn't the first to come across as a smarmy asshole, it's Holdo, and in front of the entire bridge crew. In fact, the first scene is him being polite and asking for a briefing quietly and respectfully, and getting publicly insulted for his trouble. Regardless of his actions in regards to the dreadnought, Poe was still in command of people, and needed to be briefed if Holdo and the remaining command staff experienced the same sudden lack of cabin pressure that Leia and Ackbar did. Especially since a dozen or so people could be used for things as helping with morale, loading crates, fueling transports, etc, instead of panicking because the Resistance seems stuck to a losing strategy and leadership doesn't want to discuss the very problem that they seem to be getting themselves killed for no reason.
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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by Gandalf » 2020-06-24 05:08pm

ray245 wrote:
2020-06-24 01:24pm
Moreover, if Holdo's success is down to just plain old luck ( or will of the force), that does not necessary make her a good commander. Relying on luck simply means you are lucky, and it does not mean you are good at strategy or anything else.
Replace "luck" with "will of the Force" and she's Luke at Yavin.
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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by Gandalf » 2020-06-24 05:21pm

Also, if mutinies are justified because of bad leadership with no plans, at what point were the US armed forces justified in staging a mutiny against Bush following the invasion of Iraq?
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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by ray245 » 2020-06-24 05:42pm

Gandalf wrote:
2020-06-24 05:08pm
Replace "luck" with "will of the Force" and she's Luke at Yavin.
Yes, but relying entirely on the will of the force to bail you out is not a sensible thing to do when you're not a force sensitive, and even if you are, you have no idea if the force will actually bail you out or just let you die like the Jedi who got killed in the Clone Wars.
Gandalf wrote:
2020-06-24 05:21pm
Also, if mutinies are justified because of bad leadership with no plans, at what point were the US armed forces justified in staging a mutiny against Bush following the invasion of Iraq?
Who said anything about mutinies being justified? Poe action's are not justified, even if it is understandable. There's a difference between understandable and justified.
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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by FaxModem1 » 2020-06-25 04:56pm

Gandalf wrote:
2020-06-24 05:21pm
Also, if mutinies are justified because of bad leadership with no plans, at what point were the US armed forces justified in staging a mutiny against Bush following the invasion of Iraq?
Depends, at what point in the Iraq War was the US engaged in a fighting retreat with all seeming lost due to leadership's incompetence and being unwilling to answer a subordinate's questions to an unreasonable degree?
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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-06-26 02:34am

FaxModem1 wrote:
2020-06-25 04:56pm
Gandalf wrote:
2020-06-24 05:21pm
Also, if mutinies are justified because of bad leadership with no plans, at what point were the US armed forces justified in staging a mutiny against Bush following the invasion of Iraq?
Depends, at what point in the Iraq War was the US engaged in a fighting retreat with all seeming lost due to leadership's incompetence and being unwilling to answer a subordinate's questions to an unreasonable degree?
Because subordinates are totally entitled to know any and all plans commanders have, even if said plans depend on secrecy and they are a demonstrated security risk.

Seriously, Vader chokes his officers to death for minor errors, and fans say how cool and bad ass he is. Ackbar panics on the bridge at Endor, waffles on whether to retreat or not, and wins the battle almost entirely through Lando's courage and cunning, and he's a fan favorite. Holdo... fails to sufficiently assuage the resentment and fear of one jackass while dealing with nearly impossible situation, and she's a terribly commander. I don't know how much of it is gender, and how much is fan favoritism, but its a ridiculous double standard and I can't believe that otherwise intelligent people argue it as though it makes sense.
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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-06-26 02:35am

Gandalf wrote:
2020-06-24 05:21pm
Also, if mutinies are justified because of bad leadership with no plans, at what point were the US armed forces justified in staging a mutiny against Bush following the invasion of Iraq?
They were not only entitled but obligated to refuse any illegal or unconstitutional order.

Edit: Arguably the greatest soldier in American history, in my opinion:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Ma ... tervention
Warrant Officer Hugh Thompson, Jr., a helicopter pilot from Company B (Aero-Scouts), 123rd Aviation Battalion, Americal Division, saw dead and wounded civilians as he was flying over the village of Sơn Mỹ, providing close-air support for ground forces.[48] The crew made several attempts to radio for help for the wounded. They landed their helicopter by a ditch, which they noted was full of bodies and in which there was movement.[48] Thompson asked a sergeant he encountered there (David Mitchell of 1st Platoon) if he could help get the people out of the ditch; the sergeant replied that he would "help them out of their misery". Thompson, shocked and confused, then spoke with 2LT Calley, who claimed to be just following orders. As the helicopter took off, Thompson saw Mitchell firing into the ditch.[48]

Thompson and his crew witnessed an unarmed woman being kicked and shot at point-blank range by Medina, who later claimed that he thought she had a hand grenade.[49] Thompson then saw a group of civilians (again consisting of children, women, and old men) at a bunker being approached by ground personnel. Thompson landed, and told his crew that if the soldiers shot at the villagers while he was trying to get them out of the bunker, then they were to open fire on them.[48]
Holdo, however, issued no illegal orders, or committed war crimes, so far as I am aware.
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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-06-26 03:01am

NecronLord wrote:
2020-06-24 11:53am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-06-24 09:41am
In any case, it scarcely alters the larger point, which is that Holdo achieved some extraordinary successes under one of the most adverse situations imaginable. Ones which by all rights should secure the character's place as one of the biggest heroes and bad asses in the franchise.
Of course it comes across as unbelievable that she does that when other commanders never try the hyper-ramming manouver. It's essentially a failing of worldbuilding, or rather showing worldbuilding.

If it is it the old 'six planetary radii hyperlimit' in which case the fault sits with General Hux for being so incompetent as to venture into open space. Most non-experts in Star Wars lore were just scratching their heads about why that wasn't a thing everyone does. They didn't sell her plan as a brilliant and convoluted maneuver but as simply something they could have started doing 7 films ago.
Its pretty easily explicable, even if the film didn't explicitly offer said explanations. In addition to any reluctance to routinely order suicide attacks, its likely a tactic that requires precision piloting, and possibly newly-developed technologies. Holdo's latent Force sensitivity would explain why she could pull off the maneuver, although a very skilled non-Force sensitive pilot (ie Han, Wedge, Poe, etc.) might be able to do it. So its probably something that's theoretically replicable, but also a long shot requiring a very good ship and/or a very good pilot, like Luke's Death Star shot or Han's "drop out of hyperspace inside Starkiller Base's shield" trick. It can also be casually countered by interdictors, so if such a tactic proves easily replicable due to technological advances, all it will mean in practice is that interdictors will become a more standard part of fleet deployments.

Giving those explanations in TLJ might have been awkward and disrupted the narrative, but I would have liked to see it addressed in RoS. For example, during the final battle when they're facing (sigh) Palpatine's fleet, have the following occur:

ISD bridge officer: "We're in attack position now Sir."

Hux/Kylo/whoever: "Very good. Deploy the interdictors. The Rebels won't escape us this time."

Cue shot of interdictors fanning out on the flanks of the fleet.

Officer: "Gravity well generators at full."


Then a few minutes later...

Random Resistance officer: "We're no match for that fleet."

Other officer: "Why not ram them, like Admiral Holdo did at Crait?"

Poe: "No good. That fleet's protected by Interdictors- any ship will be pulled out of hyperspace and torn apart before it ever gets close."


There, problem solved in under thirty seconds of screentime. Unfortunately, RoS wasn't so much concerned with supporting and following up on TLJ as with pretending that it never happened/retconning it.

As an aside, I actually don't think Hux as at fault here, at least not for the reason you give- the prohibition on entering hyperspace near a planet appears to have been largely abandoned in current continuity, and in any case, the battle took place far from any planet (why the Resistance didn't come in closer is a good question- perhaps they feared a trap and wanted to scout out the system, but they burned a lot of fuel). Hux is, however, at fault for not using hyperdrive to more effectively deploy his fleet having some ships jump ahead of the Resistance fleet to box it in, and for not deploying interdictors both to protect his fleet and prevent escape. Either of those actions would have ensured that he easily won the battle. Hux is a moron, news at 11.

Edit: for my RoS idea, you could even write it so that leading a daring strike to take out the Interdictors became the focus of the battle, if you wanted. It practically writes itself.
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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by NecronLord » 2020-06-26 04:47am

I think the hyperlimit can be disproven by Rogue One where they hyper out of orbit and even atmosphere directly without much difficulty, yeah. But some kind of plot point for why that couldn't happen all the time needed to be made.

If it was a one off in the force (I'd rather it not be to be quite frank) then the comparison between that and Chirrut Îmwe's walking through a gun-battle in Rogue One is worth mentioning. When he does something that transcends human ability it's quite clear he is using the force.

The same with the time Luke takes out the first Death Star; we the audience see that he is using the force, we hear Obi-Wan Kenobi speak to him.
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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-06-26 04:59am

NecronLord wrote:
2020-06-26 04:47am
I think the hyperlimit can be disproven by Solo where they hyper out of orbit directly without much difficulty, yeah. But some kind of plot point for why that couldn't happen all the time needed to be made.

If it was a one off in the force (I'd rather it not be to be quite frank) then the comparison between that and Chirrut Îmwe's walking through a gun-battle in Rogue One is worth mentioning. When he does something that transcends human ability it's quite clear he is using the force.

The same with the time Luke takes out the first Death Star; we the audience see that he is using the force, we hear Obi-Wan Kenobi speak to him.
While Holdo being a latent Force sensitive is an interesting touch, it doesn't really rule out the maneuver being performed frequently, because every major battle in this franchise will likely include one or more Force sensitives, and/or comparably skilled pilots.

The better explanation would have been the deployment of interdictors. Because this is what happens whenever a new weapon or tactic is developed- somebody inevitably comes up with a counter to it. Guns and pikes defeated knights. Tanks overcame the trenches. The nuclear ICBM arguably rendered the entire concept of large-scale conventional warfare obsolete. So someone came up with a new tactic. It doesn't break the franchise any more than any new weapon ended all other forms of warfare. It just means someone is going to figure out a way to counter it, and the arms race will continue. And its not like interdictors are even some radical new concept in the franchise. They're a proven weapons system that will simply need to see more widespread use to counter the new tactic.

Of course, this would have required Disney and Abrams to put a modicum of thought into the setting.
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Re: New Empire vs New rebellion in the sequels: Biggest mistake?

Post by ray245 » 2020-06-26 05:11am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-06-26 02:34am
Because subordinates are totally entitled to know any and all plans commanders have, even if said plans depend on secrecy and they are a demonstrated security risk.

Seriously, Vader chokes his officers to death for minor errors, and fans say how cool and bad ass he is. Ackbar panics on the bridge at Endor, waffles on whether to retreat or not, and wins the battle almost entirely through Lando's courage and cunning, and he's a fan favorite. Holdo... fails to sufficiently assuage the resentment and fear of one jackass while dealing with nearly impossible situation, and she's a terribly commander. I don't know how much of it is gender, and how much is fan favoritism, but its a ridiculous double standard and I can't believe that otherwise intelligent people argue it as though it makes sense.
It's double standards if people ignore the flaws of Vader as a commander. Vader choking his officers to death without much reason was pointed out by many people as a failure of leadership. Ackbar's panic has become a meme on the internet. He's remembered widely amongst fans because of his panic, and not because of his stellar leadership.
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