What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

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What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by FaxModem1 » 2019-06-01 10:32pm

Due to the sequel trilogy, and how it has made access to the force and it's abilities a lot easier than in previous works, what do you want the force, and being a Jedi to mean? Should the force be a living god, using people like Luke and Rey as puppets, giving them instant powers and pointing them towards some divine plan, with no mastering work of the force required? Or on the opposite track, should the force be something that you can tap into, but you stay who you are and can only achieve these things through spiritual mastery, discipline, and training? Or should it be that being a Jedi is the epitome of being a 1970s chill dude, with just relaxing and being completely in the moment? Or something altogether different?

For instance, for myself, I have enjoyed the Eastern style Buddhist monk influence on the Jedi, with how you should attain peace, learn to be in the moment, while mastering concentration, meditation, finding your center, and not being overly attached to things to the extent that you will be destructive with your actions(see Anakin), along with a sort of Zen hippie "Let the force flow through you" along with it, while also showing compassion for others and caring what happens to the galaxy.

What do you think?
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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by Solauren » 2019-06-02 11:48am

What I want the Force to mean? Nothing. The Force is 'just is'.

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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by Gandalf » 2019-06-02 06:31pm

I see the Force as a sort of bizarre divine entity. It guides actions, and some people have the ability to use it on a smaller scale to affect smaller things.

The Jedi preach a certain passivity in the face of this, which makes their bizarre FBI like role for the Republic possible. Since their beliefs apparently forbid them from using the Force selfishly, they can sit near Space Parliament and not be an instrument of fear.
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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by Batman » 2019-06-02 09:24pm

I want the Force to be the vaguely defined thing it was when first introduced. You tap into it for nifty feats and it gives yo guidance but if you 'follow' that guidance is up to
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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by Zixinus » 2019-06-03 08:24am

The Force a cosmic background energy. Psychic partially.

I want Jedi to be Space Monk-Knights that do a general moral good and in service of something greater than just themselves. Chiefly, the Republic and being both its servants and a counterbalance within it to keep it a good society. And within that, enough space for a variety of Jedi.
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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-06-04 05:05pm

FaxModem1 wrote:
2019-06-01 10:32pm
Due to the sequel trilogy, and how it has made access to the force and it's abilities a lot easier than in previous works, what do you want the force, and being a Jedi to mean? Should the force be a living god, using people like Luke and Rey as puppets, giving them instant powers and pointing them towards some divine plan, with no mastering work of the force required? Or on the opposite track, should the force be something that you can tap into, but you stay who you are and can only achieve these things through spiritual mastery, discipline, and training? Or should it be that being a Jedi is the epitome of being a 1970s chill dude, with just relaxing and being completely in the moment? Or something altogether different?
A bit of all of those, if we go off canon, especially Kenobi's opening description of the Force to Luke (then again, OT Kenobi is a known liar-excuse me, point-of-viewer :D ).

I also think that the Force guiding you does not preclude the importance of training, and that the importance for training does not preclude some people having a stronger innate link.
For instance, for myself, I have enjoyed the Eastern style Buddhist monk influence on the Jedi, with how you should attain peace, learn to be in the moment, while mastering concentration, meditation, finding your center, and not being overly attached to things to the extent that you will be destructive with your actions(see Anakin), along with a sort of Zen hippie "Let the force flow through you" along with it, while also showing compassion for others and caring what happens to the galaxy.

What do you think?
Its hard to say, in part because so much of what we hear about the Force comes from adherents to a specific ideology, which affects their interpretation of the Force. Its clear that something exists, which can allow people to perform a variety of otherwise superhuman abilities, and that one's abilities with it are influenced by a combination of innate ability (which seems at least partially hereditary), training, and state of mind/emotional state. There are also extremely powerful entities who appear/claim to be avatars of a certain aspect of the Force (the Father, Daughter, and Son, and the Bendu), though whether the Force itself is sapient is open to debate.

Beyond that, it is really hard to say, and often appears inconsistent.
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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-06-04 05:20pm

For the record, my personal view, in brief, tends towards the following:

-The Force is not sapient, but an amalgam of the emotions/life forces/desires of all the life in the galaxy. However, certain aspects of it have become embodied or represented in the material world by powerful avatars (see above).

-Ability to access the Force to some extent exists in all beings, but the connection is much stronger in some than others, and this is largely hereditary.

-Use of the Force depends less on "power levels" than state of mind. Its not that Rey or Anakin has a larger pool of mana to use up, or a higher max. power level- they have a stronger connection to the Force, which exists outside, around, and through all living beings (barring perhaps those who have cut themselves off from it).

-Those with a very strong innate connection can learn to use the Force very quickly and easily, even use it instinctively without training. However, those with a weaker connection can achieve similar feats with more difficulty, given more effort/practice and/or the right state of mind.

-They key to using the Force (if you have the potential) is believe that you can ("That is why you fail"), combined with being calm/at peace (for the Light Side) or drawing on rage/fear/hate (for the Dark Side).

-The great influence of one's state of mind goes a long way to explaining seeming inconsistencies in the power of the Force and those who use it. Distractions or surprise or intimidation can inhibit a Force user, for example (see Grievous's tactics). So can the presence of the Dark Side (the Shroud of the Dark Side), at least for Light Side Force users.

-While there are theoretically no (or very few) limits to what someone could do with the Force, in practice, Force users' sight and power are limited by the limits of a sapient mind. Even the most powerful Jedi cannot see and affect everywhere in the universe at once, because the mind simply can't handle that scope.

-Clear metaphysical forces of good and evil exist (the Light Side and Dark Side), but some powers can be used by either.

-The Dark Side tends to corrupt by offering visions of what you fear, offering you a way out if you lash out in anger and hate, often leading to a self-fulfilling prophecy. It also has similarities to an addictive drug- the more you use it, the harder it will be to resist in the future. That said, it is not absolute- using it once does not automatically guarantee a life time of puppy-kicking villainy.

-The Dark Side, as per Lucas's statements, is not a natural part of the Force, but an imbalance- one I believe arose due to the negative emotions of sapient beings feeding into the Force (remember, the Force connects all living things, and that connection is two-way, as per Kenobi's explanation).

Force regularly spawns Chosen Ones, created by the Force with an exceptionally strong connection to it and its will, to check the rise of powerful Dark Side users.
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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by ray245 » 2019-06-04 07:07pm

The force as a concept was always heavily influenced by Eastern philosophy, especially Buddhism. Buddhist thoughts and beliefs were quite important to Lucas, and he has described himself as a semi-Buddhist in a lot of his interviews.

What makes one a good force-user isn't their innate natural talent, but how they engage with the "living-force". Being a good Jedi isn't about stoicism, but rather being someone who can be at ease with one's emotions. So anger, sadness and etc are all important, but the point is not to let those feelings overwhelm you.

If Jedi saw a force vision of a friend dying? Rather than getting overwhelmed by fear and etc, enjoy the friendship or love in the time you have and etc.

This is something I think the writers in the Post-Lucas era don't quite understand. Writers like JJ Abrams have mindset or views that are quite opposite to Lucas' vision on what makes someone a "hero". Luke never was an "action-hero" in the American mould. That was Han Solo, or Leia to an extend. Lucas' idea of being a hero is being able to stop yourself from simply killing the enemy. Luke became a hero when he can stopped himself from killing his father out of anger.

Luke's heroism comes from being willing to forgave people for their terrible sins. I don't think many SW fans, especially western SW fans really understood what Lucas was trying to say about heroism. The PT was about how Anakin, the archtypical American-style action hero fell into the darkside because he acted the way he did.
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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by FaxModem1 » 2019-06-04 08:20pm

ray245 wrote:
2019-06-04 07:07pm
The force as a concept was always heavily influenced by Eastern philosophy, especially Buddhism. Buddhist thoughts and beliefs were quite important to Lucas, and he has described himself as a semi-Buddhist in a lot of his interviews.

What makes one a good force-user isn't their innate natural talent, but how they engage with the "living-force". Being a good Jedi isn't about stoicism, but rather being someone who can be at ease with one's emotions. So anger, sadness and etc are all important, but the point is not to let those feelings overwhelm you.

If Jedi saw a force vision of a friend dying? Rather than getting overwhelmed by fear and etc, enjoy the friendship or love in the time you have and etc.

This is something I think the writers in the Post-Lucas era don't quite understand. Writers like JJ Abrams have mindset or views that are quite opposite to Lucas' vision on what makes someone a "hero". Luke never was an "action-hero" in the American mould. That was Han Solo, or Leia to an extend. Lucas' idea of being a hero is being able to stop yourself from simply killing the enemy. Luke became a hero when he can stopped himself from killing his father out of anger.

Luke's heroism comes from being willing to forgave people for their terrible sins. I don't think many SW fans, especially western SW fans really understood what Lucas was trying to say about heroism. The PT was about how Anakin, the archtypical American-style action hero fell into the darkside because he acted the way he did.
Yes, it's quite noticeable to me that in Battlefront 2, as loathed a game as that was, Luke has a stellar scene in which he only appears for one mission, talks to Del Meeko, they help each other against some bug creatures, then helps him philosophically, and then departs. That seems very in-keeping with that interpretation, of a man who only fights when he has to, and instead approaches people as friends if he can. And it makes all the difference in the world.

It's very in-keeping with how the force would operate, and shows the philosophy of the Jedi in practice. I do wonder what the sequel trilogy wants to say about the force and it's philosophy with The Rise of Skywalker, if anything at all.
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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by FaxModem1 » 2019-06-04 08:22pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-06-04 05:05pm
FaxModem1 wrote:
2019-06-01 10:32pm
Due to the sequel trilogy, and how it has made access to the force and it's abilities a lot easier than in previous works, what do you want the force, and being a Jedi to mean? Should the force be a living god, using people like Luke and Rey as puppets, giving them instant powers and pointing them towards some divine plan, with no mastering work of the force required? Or on the opposite track, should the force be something that you can tap into, but you stay who you are and can only achieve these things through spiritual mastery, discipline, and training? Or should it be that being a Jedi is the epitome of being a 1970s chill dude, with just relaxing and being completely in the moment? Or something altogether different?
A bit of all of those, if we go off canon, especially Kenobi's opening description of the Force to Luke (then again, OT Kenobi is a known liar-excuse me, point-of-viewer :D ).

I also think that the Force guiding you does not preclude the importance of training, and that the importance for training does not preclude some people having a stronger innate link.
For instance, for myself, I have enjoyed the Eastern style Buddhist monk influence on the Jedi, with how you should attain peace, learn to be in the moment, while mastering concentration, meditation, finding your center, and not being overly attached to things to the extent that you will be destructive with your actions(see Anakin), along with a sort of Zen hippie "Let the force flow through you" along with it, while also showing compassion for others and caring what happens to the galaxy.

What do you think?
Its hard to say, in part because so much of what we hear about the Force comes from adherents to a specific ideology, which affects their interpretation of the Force. Its clear that something exists, which can allow people to perform a variety of otherwise superhuman abilities, and that one's abilities with it are influenced by a combination of innate ability (which seems at least partially hereditary), training, and state of mind/emotional state. There are also extremely powerful entities who appear/claim to be avatars of a certain aspect of the Force (the Father, Daughter, and Son, and the Bendu), though whether the Force itself is sapient is open to debate.

Beyond that, it is really hard to say, and often appears inconsistent.
I would say that the new canon has been mostly consistent aside from the sequel trilogy, in that you do need to attain enlightenment before you can use the force, as we see in Star Wars Rebels and Star Wars Battlefront.
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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by ray245 » 2019-06-04 08:59pm

FaxModem1 wrote:
2019-06-04 08:20pm
Yes, it's quite noticeable to me that in Battlefront 2, as loathed a game as that was, Luke has a stellar scene in which he only appears for one mission, talks to Del Meeko, they help each other against some bug creatures, then helps him philosophically, and then departs. That seems very in-keeping with that interpretation, of a man who only fights when he has to, and instead approaches people as friends if he can. And it makes all the difference in the world.

It's very in-keeping with how the force would operate, and shows the philosophy of the Jedi in practice. I do wonder what the sequel trilogy wants to say about the force and it's philosophy with The Rise of Skywalker, if anything at all.
I don't think they have any idea on what to do with it beyond making it look cool. JJ Abrams is a very, very "American action-hero" style of director, and many of his leading heroes were very much in the mould of being very aggressive action-heroes.

I don't think any of the new directors of the SW franchise really understood what Lucas was actually doing with the concept of the force and heroism. And like some posters in this forum, I think they've misidentified the core philosophy behind the force. They want the force to be some vague mystical force, when that was never really the case in the OT.

Lucas did have rather consistent idea on how one become a Jedi knight and "one with the force". Luke's journey is very, very similar to the "journey" of Buddha and Buddhistavas. It's quite clearly established that the force is more about how a person engage with himself/herself rather than interacting with an energy field. Yes, you interact with the "force" to gain abilities, but the story was never about "unlocking" more force abilities.

The story, has always been about personal self-enlightenment in the case of Luke, and failure to achieve that in the case of Anakin. Luke's battle with Vader in ROTJ did not result in him "unlocking" any new abilities. Rather, his forgiveness of his father set forth the chain of events that would result in the death of the Emperor.

Luke won the day by throwing away his weapons in the face of an Emperor who wanted to kill him. The new movies have become far too concerned with force abilities and less about personal self-enlightenment.

Why is Rey a good Jedi at the end of TLJ? Because she got some books and can raise some rocks? That's already a sign of Rian Johnson missing the point about what being a Jedi is all about. Or how the kids will become Jedi because they can force grab some broomsticks? Force abilties doesn't make one a good "hero" or a good Jedi. Wars don't make one great.

Being a heroic Jedi was never about force abilities. With JJ Abrams making Rey do more awesome backflips in the trailer, I feel that we are once again going to have a movie where the directors misunderstood the heroism that was established in the OT and PT.

I think that a vast majority of SW fans, especially "western" fans miss a lot of themes in SW because they were used to a very specific idea of "heroism". Heroism in a lot of western mythos and films are all about the hero being active and aggressive in their task. Passivity, and a willing to trust in others tends to be things neglected or undervalued as a hero. Rian Johnson making Luke wanting to kill Kylo Ren is just one example. I get that what he was trying to do was to make Luke more flawed as a Jedi Master, but it really missed the point of Luke as a character.

Luke's journey is about how someone can learn that killing people doesn't make one a hero. Beating up bad guys isn't the point of a Jedi Knight. Hell, the Prequels further emphasised what the Jedi were doing all the time. Despite all their superpowers, they aren't a superhero army capable of wiping out armies on their own.

Their skills is in keeping the balance of the galaxy acting as diplomats, resolving disputes and preventing conflicts whenever possible as ambassadors. Jedi can do awesome moves when they do fight, but seeking out violence was not what the Jedi and the force is all about. The Jedi were always using pre-cog to ensure wars don't break-out. Jedi were ambassadors, not soldiers.

The force is very much about pacifism. If people keep thinking of the force as cool superpowers to be unlocked, or superpowers that makes heroes look badass, then I think they've misunderstood Lucas' vision of the force. The force and the Jedi has always been about preaching a rather pacifist ideal whenever possible.
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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by Imperial528 » 2019-06-04 09:11pm

I consider the Force to be a reflection of life in the galaxy. A galaxy at peace is the balance that the force seeks, and it seeks this balance from the inherent desire of the vast majority of sapients for a peaceful, meaningful existence. This is the light side of the force: the essential altruism that all sapients can live in peace, together. The Dark Side is a perversion created by selfishness, born when one puts their own needs above not just the needs of others, but pursues them with purposefully at the expense of others. In this they have rejected their commonality with fellow sapients and declared themselves superior, and so long as such people can wield power, the Force cannot be balanced.
Sidious' genius was that he took advantage of this, creating a climate of fear and uncertainty in the galaxy, which seeped into the Force itself, creating what the Jedi perceived as the shroud of the Dark Side. The Jedi, seeing that selfishness lead to the Dark Side, sought instead to the selfless, to the point where they abstained from many of the emotional attachments that are natural to social beings.
Doing so let them protect themselves from falling, and made them excellent neutral arbiters, able to solve disputes without resorting to violence. However, the failing of being purely selfless is that it blinded them to the plight of the inhabitants of the galaxy, and in particular, to the struggles of Anakin. The Jedi could not help him because they believed his emotional attachments
Furthermore, the Jedi believe the Force is a tool which guides one to peace, and that the Sith use the force as a weapon. As such, they were expecting a Dark Sider or Sith to be using the Force directly to achieve malicious ends, so they could not see that Sidious was using the galaxy's very population as a weapon against the Jedi.

My ideal Jedi is a person like Luke is at the end of the OT. They stand for what is good, and believe in redemption or rehabilitation before resorting to punishment. Like the Jedi of the Republic they are not controlled by their emotions; however, unlike the Jedi, this is not achieved by abandoning the self. Instead they achieve mastery of their emotions, allowing them to experience the depth of sapient experience without being subject to potentially destructive whims or being influenced by their attachments or personal circumstance when dealing with greater matters.
ray245 wrote:
2019-06-04 07:07pm
What makes one a good force-user isn't their innate natural talent, but how they engage with the "living-force". Being a good Jedi isn't about stoicism, but rather being someone who can be at ease with one's emotions. So anger, sadness and etc are all important, but the point is not to let those feelings overwhelm you.
I'm pretty sure you're talking about the more colloquial use of the term stoicism, but I think the actual Stoic philosophy matches quite well with how Luke is at the end of his heroic journey. He listens to his emotions, but he does not let them control him. Whereas the Jedi of old view emotions as the trappings of the self, and in being truly selfless, make themselves unaffected by them. In this I think Luke achieved what the old Jedi Order failed to: he is immersed in the world, but does not allow the ups and downs of life to alter his moral core. I believe this is why he was able to save Anakin, as well. Many of Luke's actions in the OT earned the disapproval of Yoda and Obi-Wan, just as similar actions on Anakin's part did in the PT. But while Anakin failed because he tried to become selfless and couldn't, Luke found a way to follow the spirit of the Jedi Order's teachings and restore balance to the force, while still preserving his self without becoming selfish the way Anakin did.

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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-06-04 10:34pm

ray245 wrote:
2019-06-04 08:59pm
FaxModem1 wrote:
2019-06-04 08:20pm
Yes, it's quite noticeable to me that in Battlefront 2, as loathed a game as that was, Luke has a stellar scene in which he only appears for one mission, talks to Del Meeko, they help each other against some bug creatures, then helps him philosophically, and then departs. That seems very in-keeping with that interpretation, of a man who only fights when he has to, and instead approaches people as friends if he can. And it makes all the difference in the world.

It's very in-keeping with how the force would operate, and shows the philosophy of the Jedi in practice. I do wonder what the sequel trilogy wants to say about the force and it's philosophy with The Rise of Skywalker, if anything at all.
I don't think they have any idea on what to do with it beyond making it look cool. JJ Abrams is a very, very "American action-hero" style of director, and many of his leading heroes were very much in the mould of being very aggressive action-heroes.
You're correct about Abrams' usual style from what I've seen of his work. But I will note that Luke was pretty much a typical action hero A New Hope. The greater depth came later.
I don't think any of the new directors of the SW franchise really understood what Lucas was actually doing with the concept of the force and heroism. And like some posters in this forum, I think they've misidentified the core philosophy behind the force. They want the force to be some vague mystical force, when that was never really the case in the OT.
It is a vague mystical force. It draws somewhat on various real-world philosophies, of course, but its depiction has long been somewhat vague and contradictory. But I do think I sort of see what you're getting at here, since you've elaborated below.
Lucas did have rather consistent idea on how one become a Jedi knight and "one with the force". Luke's journey is very, very similar to the "journey" of Buddha and Buddhistavas. It's quite clearly established that the force is more about how a person engage with himself/herself rather than interacting with an energy field. Yes, you interact with the "force" to gain abilities, but the story was never about "unlocking" more force abilities.
It is possible to understate the influence of Buddhism on Star Wars, but also to overstate it. I suspect attempting to force Star Wars' mythology to conform precisely to any real-world religion will probably lead to some warped interpretations of canon. But I agree insofar as one's state of mind/emotional state is depicted as being key to one's ability to use the Force, and how one uses it.
The story, has always been about personal self-enlightenment in the case of Luke, and failure to achieve that in the case of Anakin. Luke's battle with Vader in ROTJ did not result in him "unlocking" any new abilities. Rather, his forgiveness of his father set forth the chain of events that would result in the death of the Emperor.

Luke won the day by throwing away his weapons in the face of an Emperor who wanted to kill him. The new movies have become far too concerned with force abilities and less about personal self-enlightenment.
Yes, and I consider this one of the greatest moments in film for pretty much that reason, as I've said before. Its also a moment that I consider Luke's last stand in TLJ pretty much in keeping with.

I disagree that the films "have become far too concerned with force abilities". I think a lot of the fandom has, both because you have a generation of speculative fiction fans that was brought up on video games and tends depressingly often to think of character growth in terms of "unlocking levels" and using cheat codes*, and because Rey-bashers obsess over how she's "too powerful".

*I've particularly noticed this shit in Harry Potter fanfic, where all sorts of crap with no basis in canon to give wizards what amount to power levels, usually based on intricate rules the author made up/lifted from somewhere else so that Harry-In-Name-Only can game them in order to fulfill his role as the author's surrogate male power fantasy.
Why is Rey a good Jedi at the end of TLJ? Because she got some books and can raise some rocks? That's already a sign of Rian Johnson missing the point about what being a Jedi is all about. Or how the kids will become Jedi because they can force grab some broomsticks? Force abilties doesn't make one a good "hero" or a good Jedi. Wars don't make one great.
Rian Johnson never said any of that.

Rey was not great because she could lift some rocks. She could lift some rocks because she had chosen to embrace her role as a Jedi. As I noted in the other thread, Rey fails at everything she does in TLJ, until the moment when she is forced to confront her lack of a family identity, accepts it, and still chooses not to join Kylo. After that, she succeeds. That is probably not a coincidence, from a director as attentive to detail as Johnson is.

And to argue that the film was claiming that kid was a fully-fledged Jedi, or would necessarily become one, because he had power is just such preposterous reaching that its barely worth dignifying with a response. Its a quick visual way in a visual medium to show that he has the potential to become more than a slave. That's all.

If anything, the film's defining quality for a Jedi is hope. Fear and despair is the path to the Dark Side. Hope is the quality of the Light Side. Hell, Snoke even spells it out when he says that Rey's hope in the face of a hopeless fight is proof that she is a Jedi, but apparently that's still too subtle for the fan bashers to get. Probably because you don't want to get it.
Being a heroic Jedi was never about force abilities. With JJ Abrams making Rey do more awesome backflips in the trailer, I feel that we are once again going to have a movie where the directors misunderstood the heroism that was established in the OT and PT.
A movie trailer (which was probably put together by the Disney marketing department with little or no input from Abrams) shows flashy effects, just like every other Star Wars trailer! Clearly this proves that the director understands nothing about Star Wars or heroism!
I think that a vast majority of SW fans, especially "western" fans miss a lot of themes in SW because they were used to a very specific idea of "heroism". Heroism in a lot of western mythos and films are all about the hero being active and aggressive in their task. Passivity, and a willing to trust in others tends to be things neglected or undervalued as a hero.
I see you missed Luke's trying to preemptively murder Kylo being a collosal mistake, Poe having to learn the lesson that the most aggressive course was not always the right one, and Rose and Poe reiterating the same lesson to Finn in the final battle.
Rian Johnson making Luke wanting to kill Kylo Ren is just one example. I get that what he was trying to do was to make Luke more flawed as a Jedi Master, but it really missed the point of Luke as a character.
You get it, you say... but you ignore its significance.

Luke wanting to kill Kylo, to act, as you say, aggressively rather than trusting in letting things play out, is portrayed as the worst mistake of his life, and something he regretted until the day he died. You say its "missing the point of Luke". I disagree. Luke isn't perfect. He never was. He made a mistake, a very believable mistake for a person to make, he paid for it, and he ultimately learned from it.

And again, note that, in the end, he defeats Kylo without the use of any physical violence whatsoever.
Luke's journey is about how someone can learn that killing people doesn't make one a hero. Beating up bad guys isn't the point of a Jedi Knight. Hell, the Prequels further emphasised what the Jedi were doing all the time. Despite all their superpowers, they aren't a superhero army capable of wiping out armies on their own.
You're giving the PT more credit for a few lines in between scores of scenes of powerful Jedi kicking ass with fancy acrobatics (a fight style you've also said you prefer, IIRC), than you're giving TLJ for the entire thesis of the film.
Their skills is in keeping the balance of the galaxy acting as diplomats, resolving disputes and preventing conflicts whenever possible as ambassadors. Jedi can do awesome moves when they do fight, but seeking out violence was not what the Jedi and the force is all about. The Jedi were always using pre-cog to ensure wars don't break-out. Jedi were ambassadors, not soldiers.

The force is very much about pacifism. If people keep thinking of the force as cool superpowers to be unlocked, or superpowers that makes heroes look badass, then I think they've misunderstood Lucas' vision of the force. The force and the Jedi has always been about preaching a rather pacifist ideal whenever possible.
The Jedi are fighters as well as diplomats, but they are supposed to try the latter before the former. As Rey does (though it fails), and as Luke failed (and it is very much portrayed as a failure) to do in TLJ.
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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by FaxModem1 » 2019-06-05 01:28am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-06-04 10:34pm
You get it, you say... but you ignore its significance.

Luke wanting to kill Kylo, to act, as you say, aggressively rather than trusting in letting things play out, is portrayed as the worst mistake of his life, and something he regretted until the day he died. You say its "missing the point of Luke". I disagree. Luke isn't perfect. He never was. He made a mistake, a very believable mistake for a person to make, he paid for it, and he ultimately learned from it.

And again, note that, in the end, he defeats Kylo without the use of any physical violence whatsoever.
I think the thing that is tonally distant is that Luke went from, "Never" to his worst enemy, and grew to say "Because you asked" to his then-enemy to holding a lightsaber over his nephew. It's so un-Jedi, and seems so unlike Luke. Maybe Ben was making Columbine style jokes at the Academy or something a few hours before, but Luke purposely went into Ben's hut from wherever Luke was, and ignited his saber. It's not a moment's weakness, it's someone utterly disregarding their philosophy over the course of an entire night, intent on killing a family member, and only seeming to stop when he saw the look of betrayal in their eyes.
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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-06-05 01:45am

FaxModem1 wrote:
2019-06-05 01:28am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-06-04 10:34pm
You get it, you say... but you ignore its significance.

Luke wanting to kill Kylo, to act, as you say, aggressively rather than trusting in letting things play out, is portrayed as the worst mistake of his life, and something he regretted until the day he died. You say its "missing the point of Luke". I disagree. Luke isn't perfect. He never was. He made a mistake, a very believable mistake for a person to make, he paid for it, and he ultimately learned from it.

And again, note that, in the end, he defeats Kylo without the use of any physical violence whatsoever.
I think the thing that is tonally distant is that Luke went from, "Never" to his worst enemy, and grew to say "Because you asked" to his then-enemy to holding a lightsaber over his nephew. It's so un-Jedi, and seems so unlike Luke. Maybe Ben was making Columbine style jokes at the Academy or something a few hours before, but Luke purposely went into Ben's hut from wherever Luke was, and ignited his saber. It's not a moment's weakness, it's someone utterly disregarding their philosophy over the course of an entire night, intent on killing a family member, and only seeming to stop when he saw the look of betrayal in their eyes.
It certainly feels jarring, and I think it hurts here that we have little canon material (and none in films, which is what have the largest audience in the franchise) between the two trilogies other than a couple flashbacks of dubious accuracy (I think Luke's is far more likely the truth, or at least closer to it, than Kylo's, but there's no way to be sure how true it is).

That said, it is not at all impossible for a man to change over the course of thirty-plus years. And certainly the responsibilities of having a family and students who depended on him would be an added burden on Luke. And Luke resisting the Dark Side once does not mean that he will never be tempted again- quite the contrary, I'd expect someone who dipped his toes in the Darkness once to be tempted more easily in the future. And its entirely consistent with how the Dark Side has been previously portrayed in highest-level canon.

The Dark Side tempts by presenting you with something you fear, and then offering you a way to avert it if you only give in to your fear and anger and hate and lash out, seizing power. But being a deal with the devil, its a trap, and you can end up causing the very thing you feared, in essentially a classic self-fulfilling prophecy trap. Anakin feared Padme's death, turned the Dark Side, and ended up killing her. Luke at Endor attacked Palpatine and then Vader in a rage to protect his friends and sister, and does anyone doubt that if he had fallen then, he would have become a deadly enemy to them and hurt them just as much as the Emperor would have (if not more, because at least if the Emperor hunted or tortured or killed them, it wouldn't be a personal betrayal)? And the same thing happens here- Luke is shown something he fears, the greatest fear- the destruction of everything and everyone he loves by someone close to him, because he failed. And he thinks that if he just strikes first, he can prevent it all, and isn't that such a believable impulse, even for a good man? Perhaps especially for a good man. How many people have argued for a preemptive strike against an enemy, because if we wait for them to fire first it will be too late? How many people have talked about how if they could go back in time they'd kill baby Hitler, murdering an innocent child in cold blood to prevent the things he would one day do if history were unaltered? How many people, on this forum, would consider it moral to do so? And there Luke is, standing over baby Hitler as he sleeps, and all he has to do is push a button, and swing his saber, and all those lives will be saved. Is it so hard to believe that, just for a moment, he would be tempted?

And, most importantly, he didn't do it. And if you believe Luke, he seems to have stepped back from the brink before Ben woke up. He was tempted... and he made a choice to refuse the darkness, again. It just came a second too late this time. Hell, even his subsequent self-imposed exile, which seems so cowardly and callous, can be seen as him isolating himself not simply out of shame for what he did, or fear of what might happen to him, but out of fear of what he might do, what he might become, if he faced Kylo again. Which is the ultimate fear he has to overcome, to become the Jedi he was.

Edit: Also, the way Luke described it, he didn't go into the hut planning to murder Ben. He went in planning to read his mind (which is morally questionable without his permission, certainly, but pretty typical for Jedi, and a far cry from murder), and only when he saw how far he had fallen already did he ignite his saber. I actually suspect that if he had realized what Ben was earlier, and had the whole walk to the hut to decide what he was going to do, he probably would have handled it better. Whereas the shock caused him to panic and lash out. Had he made the decision in cold blood, rather than surprised fear, I suspect he would have either tried to talk Ben down, or find some non-lethal way of neutralizing him. Or, if he truly felt that killing him was necessary, done it as a Jedi should: without passion, and without hesitation.
Last edited by The Romulan Republic on 2019-06-05 01:49am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by FaxModem1 » 2019-06-05 01:48am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-06-05 01:45am
FaxModem1 wrote:
2019-06-05 01:28am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-06-04 10:34pm
You get it, you say... but you ignore its significance.

Luke wanting to kill Kylo, to act, as you say, aggressively rather than trusting in letting things play out, is portrayed as the worst mistake of his life, and something he regretted until the day he died. You say its "missing the point of Luke". I disagree. Luke isn't perfect. He never was. He made a mistake, a very believable mistake for a person to make, he paid for it, and he ultimately learned from it.

And again, note that, in the end, he defeats Kylo without the use of any physical violence whatsoever.
I think the thing that is tonally distant is that Luke went from, "Never" to his worst enemy, and grew to say "Because you asked" to his then-enemy to holding a lightsaber over his nephew. It's so un-Jedi, and seems so unlike Luke. Maybe Ben was making Columbine style jokes at the Academy or something a few hours before, but Luke purposely went into Ben's hut from wherever Luke was, and ignited his saber. It's not a moment's weakness, it's someone utterly disregarding their philosophy over the course of an entire night, intent on killing a family member, and only seeming to stop when he saw the look of betrayal in their eyes.
It certainly feels jarring, and I think it hurts here that we have little canon material (and none in films, which is what have the largest audience in the franchise) between the two trilogies other than a couple flashbacks of dubious accuracy (I think Luke's is far more likely the truth, or at least closer to it, than Kylo's, but there's no way to be sure how true it is).

That said, it is not at all impossible for a man to change over the course of thirty-plus years. And certainly the responsibilities of having a family and students who depended on him would be an added burden on Luke. And Luke resisting the Dark Side once does not mean that he will never be tempted again- quite the contrary, I'd expect someone who dipped his toes in the Darkness once to be tempted more easily in the future. And its entirely consistent with how the Dark Side has been previously portrayed in highest-level canon.

The Dark Side tempts by presenting you with something you fear, and then offering you a way to avert it if you only give in to your fear and anger and hate and lash out, seizing power. But being a deal with the devil, its a trap, and you can end up causing the very thing you feared, in essentially a classic self-fulfilling prophecy trap. Anakin feared Padme's death, turned the Dark Side, and ended up killing her. Luke at Endor attacked Palpatine and then Vader in a rage to protect his friends and sister, and does anyone doubt that if he had fallen then, he would have become a deadly enemy to them and hurt them just as much as the Emperor would have (if not more, because at least if the Emperor hunted or tortured or killed them, it wouldn't be a personal betrayal)? And the same thing happens here- Luke is shown something he fears, the greatest fear- the destruction of everything and everyone he loves by someone close to him, because he failed. And he thinks that if he just strikes first, he can prevent it all, and isn't that such a believable impulse, even for a good man? Perhaps especially for a good man. How many people have argued for a preemptive strike against an enemy, because if we wait for them to fire first it will be too late? How many people have talked about how if they could go back in time they'd kill baby Hitler, murdering an innocent child in cold blood to prevent the things he would one day do if history were unaltered? How many people, on this forum, would consider it moral to do so? And there Luke is, standing over baby Hitler as he sleeps, and all he has to do is push a button, and swing his saber, and all those lives will be saved. Is it so hard to believe that, just for a moment, he would be tempted?

And, most importantly, he didn't do it. And if you believe Luke, he seems to have stepped back from the brink before Ben woke up. He was tempted... and he made a choice to refuse the darkness, again. It just came a second too late this time. Hell, even his subsequent self-imposed exile, which seems so cowardly and callous, can be seen as him isolating himself not simply out of shame for what he did, or fear of what might happen to him, but out of fear of what he might do, what he might become, if he faced Kylo again. Which is the ultimate fear he has to overcome, to become the Jedi he was.
Here's the problem with that thought process. A Jedi, like a Buddhist, would accept that things are that they are, and not fear the darkness that is to come. Instead, they would enjoy what they have, and instead brace for it to what extent they can. Instead, Luke becomes Anakin, bringing about the very dark future he saw coming.
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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-06-05 01:50am

How far do you take that? Luke tried to change the way things were at Endor- and he succeeded. Also, ray's arguments aside, the Force and the Jedi are not Buddhism. I acknowledge the influence on Lucas, certainly- but I don't think the two can be treated as synonymous (and if they were, these days, it would probably be condemned as racist "cultural appropriation").

I also edited some further thoughts into my post, which may help to clarify things. I hope.
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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by FaxModem1 » 2019-06-05 02:23am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-06-05 01:50am
How far do you take that? Luke tried to change the way things were at Endor- and he succeeded. Also, ray's arguments aside, the Force and the Jedi are not Buddhism. I acknowledge the influence on Lucas, certainly- but I don't think the two can be treated as synonymous (and if they were, these days, it would probably be condemned as racist "cultural appropriation").

I also edited some further thoughts into my post, which may help to clarify things. I hope.
I mean in that the Jedi try and make things better through the better paths before deciding to enact violence, and even then, to not give up on what they are in order to save the day. Jedi would never accept being "Tough Men who make Tough Choices ", that way lies the tragedy of Darth Revan, who brought about the Jedi Civil War.

We see that the Jedi prefer, at least from what we've seen, to try and talk things out, even to their enemies. And to those they fear may bring darkness. Obi Wan talks to Maul, and only kills him when he knows that he has to, because Maul is threatening Luke. Yoda doesn't decapitate Anakin after he confesses his worries, instead he tries to talk him through it, and tells him to enjoy the time he has left. The lesson doesn't take, but Yoda was trying. Luke could have stabbed Del Meeko, and gotten what he wanted from Palpatine's vault. Instead, he talked to him, and showed him that they weren't enemies. Obi Wan tried to reason with Anakin, but Anakin refused to listen while murdering his pregnant wife. He even tries later, when Anakin is loudly proclaiming that the Jedi themselves are evil. There, Obi Wan then knows he can't get to his former student.

We don't know if Luke was counseling Ben before he gave up or if he decided to monitor Ben's dreams or whatever as a form of therapy, but the way Luke described it, it sounded like he was already set on what he was going to do. Not a spur of the moment decision. Either way, such a natural thought process means that Luke may have already fallen from the Jedi teachings. Even at the end, he refuses to try and save his nephew, considering him lost.
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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-06-05 02:46am

FaxModem1 wrote:
2019-06-05 02:23am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-06-05 01:50am
How far do you take that? Luke tried to change the way things were at Endor- and he succeeded. Also, ray's arguments aside, the Force and the Jedi are not Buddhism. I acknowledge the influence on Lucas, certainly- but I don't think the two can be treated as synonymous (and if they were, these days, it would probably be condemned as racist "cultural appropriation").

I also edited some further thoughts into my post, which may help to clarify things. I hope.
I mean in that the Jedi try and make things better through the better paths before deciding to enact violence, and even then, to not give up on what they are in order to save the day. Jedi would never accept being "Tough Men who make Tough Choices ", that way lies the tragedy of Darth Revan, who brought about the Jedi Civil War.
That is what a Jedi should be, in my view, but not always a standard they have lived up to.
We see that the Jedi prefer, at least from what we've seen, to try and talk things out, even to their enemies. And to those they fear may bring darkness. Obi Wan talks to Maul, and only kills him when he knows that he has to, because Maul is threatening Luke. Yoda doesn't decapitate Anakin after he confesses his worries, instead he tries to talk him through it, and tells him to enjoy the time he has left. The lesson doesn't take, but Yoda was trying. Luke could have stabbed Del Meeko, and gotten what he wanted from Palpatine's vault. Instead, he talked to him, and showed him that they weren't enemies. Obi Wan tried to reason with Anakin, but Anakin refused to listen while murdering his pregnant wife. He even tries later, when Anakin is loudly proclaiming that the Jedi themselves are evil. There, Obi Wan then knows he can't get to his former student.
On the flip side, we don't see Qui-Gon and Kenobi trying to talk Maul down on Naboo, or Kenobi trying to reason with Dooku on Geonosis. I suspect that he did so with Anakin more due to their personal ties than Jedi doctrine- if anything, his duty there was to kill Anakin without regard for their attachments, officially.

Of course, Luke is in any case far from a model Old Republic Jedi. If anything, emotion is his strength- but it can be a double-edged sword, I suppose.

If anything in the Sequels would be a betrayal of Luke's character, it would be the potential implication that the OR Jedi were right- that emotion is a bad thing in a Jedi.
We don't know if Luke was counseling Ben before he gave up or if he decided to monitor Ben's dreams or whatever as a form of therapy, but the way Luke described it, it sounded like he was already set on what he was going to do. Not a spur of the moment decision. Either way, such a natural thought process means that Luke may have already fallen from the Jedi teachings. Even at the end, he refuses to try and save his nephew, considering him lost.
Here's the scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syjhoWSpxdU

And here is what Luke says:
"I saw darkness. I'd sensed it building in him. I'd seen it in moments during his training. (Luke is reading Ben's mind) But then I looked inside, and it was beyond what I ever imagined. (Luke hears voices screaming and sounds of battle inside his mind, stops). Snoke had already turned his heart. (Luke slowly draws his saber) He would bring destruction and pain and death and the end of every thing love because of what he will become, and for the briefest moment of pure instinct I thought I could stop it! (Luke ignites his saber). It passed like a fleeting shadow, and I was left with shame (Luke lowers his saber, sees Ben is awake and watching him), and with consequence. And the last thing I saw were the eyes of a frightened boy who's master had failed him." (Ben pulls his saber to him, their blades clash-its not clear to me if Luke is striking or just blocking-Luke shouts "Ben, no!", and Ben Force pushes him through a wall)
Luke says he was suspicious, had seen darkness in Ben, but nothing here suggests that he had already decided to kill him before reading his mind. He even says it was a momentary thought. He does not draw or ignite his saber until after he has read him. After igniting it, he pauses, rather than simply striking, and his actions from then on are more defensive/trying to get Ben to stop than aggressive. There is literally zero evidence for what you suggest (that Luke coldly plotted premeditated murder). Zero. If your argument is that Luke was lying, then that's on you to prove.
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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-06-05 02:51am

It also doesn't make sense because a) why would Luke bother reading Ben's mind first if he was already certain in his decision to kill him? And b) I firmly believe, given everything we've seen thus far, that if Luke had really wanted to kill Ben, and caught him sleeping, he'd have succeeded. At which point, he most likely would have fallen to the Dark Side, and the ST would be the story of the war to defeat Emperor Luke Skywalker.
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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by FaxModem1 » 2019-06-05 03:24am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-06-05 02:46am
We see that the Jedi prefer, at least from what we've seen, to try and talk things out, even to their enemies. And to those they fear may bring darkness. Obi Wan talks to Maul, and only kills him when he knows that he has to, because Maul is threatening Luke. Yoda doesn't decapitate Anakin after he confesses his worries, instead he tries to talk him through it, and tells him to enjoy the time he has left. The lesson doesn't take, but Yoda was trying. Luke could have stabbed Del Meeko, and gotten what he wanted from Palpatine's vault. Instead, he talked to him, and showed him that they weren't enemies. Obi Wan tried to reason with Anakin, but Anakin refused to listen while murdering his pregnant wife. He even tries later, when Anakin is loudly proclaiming that the Jedi themselves are evil. There, Obi Wan then knows he can't get to his former student.
On the flip side, we don't see Qui-Gon and Kenobi trying to talk Maul down on Naboo, or Kenobi trying to reason with Dooku on Geonosis. I suspect that he did so with Anakin more due to their personal ties than Jedi doctrine- if anything, his duty there was to kill Anakin without regard for their attachments, officially.

Of course, Luke is in any case far from a model Old Republic Jedi. If anything, emotion is his strength- but it can be a double-edged sword, I suppose.

If anything in the Sequels would be a betrayal of Luke's character, it would be the potential implication that the OR Jedi were right- that emotion is a bad thing in a Jedi.
Even if it's down to personal ties, was Luke's relationship with his nephew so far gone that murder was the first thought that came to him when thinking his nephew was going to become dark?
We don't know if Luke was counseling Ben before he gave up or if he decided to monitor Ben's dreams or whatever as a form of therapy, but the way Luke described it, it sounded like he was already set on what he was going to do. Not a spur of the moment decision. Either way, such a natural thought process means that Luke may have already fallen from the Jedi teachings. Even at the end, he refuses to try and save his nephew, considering him lost.
Here's the scene:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syjhoWSpxdU

And here is what Luke says:
"I saw darkness. I'd sensed it building in him. I'd seen it in moments during his training. (Luke is reading Ben's mind) But then I looked inside, and it was beyond what I ever imagined. (Luke hears voices screaming and sounds of battle inside his mind, stops). Snoke had already turned his heart. (Luke slowly draws his saber) He would bring destruction and pain and death and the end of every thing love because of what he will become, and for the briefest moment of pure instinct I thought I could stop it! (Luke ignites his saber). It passed like a fleeting shadow, and I was left with shame (Luke lowers his saber, sees Ben is awake and watching him), and with consequence. And the last thing I saw were the eyes of a frightened boy who's master had failed him." (Ben pulls his saber to him, their blades clash-its not clear to me if Luke is striking or just blocking-Luke shouts "Ben, no!", and Ben Force pushes him through a wall)
Luke says he was suspicious, had seen darkness in Ben, but nothing here suggests that he had already decided to kill him before reading his mind. He even says it was a momentary thought. He does not draw or ignite his saber until after he has read him. After igniting it, he pauses, rather than simply striking, and his actions from then on are more defensive/trying to get Ben to stop than aggressive. There is literally zero evidence for what you suggest (that Luke coldly plotted premeditated murder). Zero. If your argument is that Luke was lying, then that's on you to prove.
Well, we do have to remember that we never really get the true version, Rian Johnson deciding to go all Rashomon on us, after all. :wink:

That said, what does it say that Luke's instincts as a Jedi are to instantly go for his weapon, even on his own nephew?

Being horrified? Sure. Being scared? Sure. Maybe even having violent thoughts. I'm not going to begrudge Luke any of that. I am going to begrudge Luke, if this is what actually happened, for actually grabbing his weapon and igniting it. This is the equivalent of a cop seeing his nephew's disturbing drawings and reading their journal in their bedroom while the nephew was sleeping and being so horrified at what they see that they grab their pistol from their holster, take the safety off, and putting a round in the chamber and pointing the weapon at the sleeping teenager.

I don't care how disturbed you are, that should not be your reaction.
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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-06-05 04:02am

FaxModem1 wrote:
2019-06-05 03:24am
Even if it's down to personal ties, was Luke's relationship with his nephew so far gone that murder was the first thought that came to him when thinking his nephew was going to become dark?
Except it wasn't. His first thought was "investigate further". It was only when he did that, and saw how far gone Ben was, that he (momentarily) panicked.

If you dispute that version of events... well, I've given my evidence. Its up to you to present yours'.
Well, we do have to remember that we never really get the true version, Rian Johnson deciding to go all Rashomon on us, after all. :wink:
You could say that we don't know for sure which version (if either) is true, but that is different from asserting (as you appear to be doing) that Luke's version is definitely false. And again I say- where is your evidence, if that is your position?

I would certainly give Luke's version more credence than Kylo's, given that Kylo is a space Nazi, and his version definitely more self-serving.
That said, what does it say that Luke's instincts as a Jedi are to instantly go for his weapon, even on his own nephew?
Everyone can make a bad choice in a moment of panic. And, as I said, he got to that point only after investigating, and realizing that things were much worse than he had feared.
Being horrified? Sure. Being scared? Sure. Maybe even having violent thoughts. I'm not going to begrudge Luke any of that. I am going to begrudge Luke, if this is what actually happened, for actually grabbing his weapon and igniting it. This is the equivalent of a cop seeing his nephew's disturbing drawings and reading their journal in their bedroom while the nephew was sleeping and being so horrified at what they see that they grab their pistol from their holster, take the safety off, and putting a round in the chamber and pointing the weapon at the sleeping teenager.

I don't care how disturbed you are, that should not be your reaction.
Except its not just images or writing, and Ben isn't just some kid. Ben is a Force user- possibly (from Luke's dialogue) the most powerful he ever encountered, at least in theoretical potential (keeping in mind that he never knew Anakin at full strength). And Luke saw directly into his mind, and/or visions of the future in which he would commit these crimes (and also its implied from the dialogue that he saw that Ben had been associating with Snoke). So this is like the cop finding out that his nephew who he trained as a special forces commmando now controls the nuclear codes and has been hanging out with Bin Laden and plotting terrorist attacks, and even that probably doesn't convey it sufficiently.

And no, it shouldn't have been Luke's reaction, and he knows it. That's the whole damn point.
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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by FaxModem1 » 2019-06-05 04:47am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-06-05 04:02am
FaxModem1 wrote:
2019-06-05 03:24am
Even if it's down to personal ties, was Luke's relationship with his nephew so far gone that murder was the first thought that came to him when thinking his nephew was going to become dark?
Except it wasn't. His first thought was "investigate further". It was only when he did that, and saw how far gone Ben was, that he (momentarily) panicked.

If you dispute that version of events... well, I've given my evidence. Its up to you to present yours'.
Well, we do have to remember that we never really get the true version, Rian Johnson deciding to go all Rashomon on us, after all. :wink:
You could say that we don't know for sure which version (if either) is true, but that is different from asserting (as you appear to be doing) that Luke's version is definitely false. And again I say- where is your evidence, if that is your position?

I would certainly give Luke's version more credence than Kylo's, given that Kylo is a space Nazi, and his version definitely more self-serving.
No, I'm saying that we don't know what really happened, due to the way the film went via giving us a Rashomon. We also saw Luke's original version, which was a lie. And if we're to assume the third version is true, we have to deal with the implications of it. The events as presented are discussed below. This is mostly meant as a poke at the film for trying to pull such a thing and not being willing to fully commit to it. To quote Farscape's "The Ugly Truth":
John: Look, you guys gotta understand something. Everybody's stories are going to be a little different. Nobody sees things the exact same way.

Fento: We do.

John: (incredulous) What? 10 Plakavoids see a fender bender and you get 10 identical reports?

Gahv: Yes.

John: Well the rest of the universe doesn't work that way. There's going to be some inconsistencies.
So we don't know the exact sequence of events, we at best get a 'eh, close enough' version of events.
That said, what does it say that Luke's instincts as a Jedi are to instantly go for his weapon, even on his own nephew?
Everyone can make a bad choice in a moment of panic. And, as I said, he got to that point only after investigating, and realizing that things were much worse than he had feared.
Here's where we run into a problem. On the Jedi side:

The Jedi are all about self control. Luke had Yoda beating that into his head when he was younger, and he's been doing a lot of meditation and learning over the years. Jedi will feel emotions, anger, fear, and such being among them. However, they should know not to give into them. So much so, that after years of being a Jedi, that he should, when it comes to actions, not be violent.

And, I don't know if you're an uncle, father, older brother, or even just a babysitter, but going from concern over what that person might do, or even having anger or aggravation at them is normal, acceptable. Anger is something people have sometimes. After years of taking care of a younger family member, though, that entertaining violent thoughts about them, to the extent of actually getting a real weapon out says something about Luke and Ben's familial relationship.
Being horrified? Sure. Being scared? Sure. Maybe even having violent thoughts. I'm not going to begrudge Luke any of that. I am going to begrudge Luke, if this is what actually happened, for actually grabbing his weapon and igniting it. This is the equivalent of a cop seeing his nephew's disturbing drawings and reading their journal in their bedroom while the nephew was sleeping and being so horrified at what they see that they grab their pistol from their holster, take the safety off, and putting a round in the chamber and pointing the weapon at the sleeping teenager.

I don't care how disturbed you are, that should not be your reaction.
Except its not just images or writing, and Ben isn't just some kid. Ben is a Force user- possibly (from Luke's dialogue) the most powerful he ever encountered, at least in theoretical potential (keeping in mind that he never knew Anakin at full strength). And Luke saw directly into his mind, and/or visions of the future in which he would commit these crimes (and also its implied from the dialogue that he saw that Ben had been associating with Snoke). So this is like the cop finding out that his nephew who he trained as a special forces commmando now controls the nuclear codes and has been hanging out with Bin Laden and plotting terrorist attacks, and even that probably doesn't convey it sufficiently.

And no, it shouldn't have been Luke's reaction, and he knows it. That's the whole damn point.
And here's the thing, even if such a ridiculous premise was the case, I assume that even Dirty Harry would try something besides deciding to coup de grace on his family member immediately, and might discuss it with someone before drawing out his weapon. Luke, a Jedi Knight, and emotionally mature man who, as shown in this thread alone, has matured into someone who tries and talks things out with people, and helps others. Even when he was a hotheaded youth, he did what he could to redeem his father, who murdered who knows how many people.

I guess fathers count more than nephews for Luke. Or after years of things going wrong in the New Republic, Luke has such PTSD that he immediately goes to violence when he perceives a threat.
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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by Gandalf » 2019-06-05 06:15am

Luke tried to reach lofty peaks of recreating the deified Jedi Order, and failed. Why is that such a hard pill for people to swallow?
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Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

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Re: What do you want the force, and the Jedi to mean?

Post by FaxModem1 » 2019-06-05 06:19am

Gandalf wrote:
2019-06-05 06:15am
Luke tried to reach lofty peaks of recreating the deified Jedi Order, and failed. Why is that such a hard pill for people to swallow?
Because there's quite a gap between Luke failing to make a galaxy spanning organization that protects people and the New Republic, and being such a failure as both a Jedi Knight and a person that nepoticide looks like a good idea.
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