The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑
How does her insecurities about her identity making her easy for the Dark Side/Kylo/Snoke to manipulate not impact her character? How does her subsequent rejection of Kylo's offer not impact her character? Explain.
Assertions do not equal sound arguments.
Because that did not impact her spiritual growth? She was prone to drawing upon negative emotions to help her in fights and etc, and she is still at the same stage by the end of the movie.
Neither does repetition.
Perhaps you can try and read my post instead of ignoring it.
Perhaps you were unclear, yes.
As to how Rey as an novice Force user compares to Anakin as a novice and Luke as a novice, I would say she learns faster than Luke overall (though Luke surpassed her in certain specific fields), but Anakin is at least as rediculous. I defy anyone to watch nine year old Anakin blowing up a command ship essentially by accident/dumb luck, and tell me that that is less absurdly overpowered than anything Rey has ever done.
Anakin's actions was guided by the force, but Anakin as a untrained 9 year old did not produce any physical force abilties beyond being able to "see" the right path to take.
But I love how you outright admit that the standard for Rey being a bad character/Mary Sue is "She is more powerful than a male protagonist."
Stop trying to bring gender into this discussion, when the only two Jedi protagonist prior to EP 7 were male. This is just debating in bad faith because you want to label your opponents as sexists. So we can never compare Rey to Luke and Anakin because we have no female Jedi protagonist? Is that what you are saying?
As above, better than Luke, yes. Better than Anakin, no, at least not unambiguously so.
In any case, however, its a moot point, because being exceptionally strong in the Force does not make her a "Mary Sue" or a bad character. Is your argument really "Rey is a bad character because she's more powerful than (insert male character here)"?
She managed to gain more force abilites than Anakin did in Ep 1. So yes, I see her as more powerful than Anakin. There's nothing wrong with being exceptionally powerful, the point is whether her powers is connected to her spiritual growth ( which was something Anakin and Luke had to learn).
Oh BULL FUCKING SHIT.
You asserted that Rey is more powerful than Anakin, and backed this up by citing Snoke's line about the Dark Side and the Light Side growing stronger. The logical implication being that because the Force has grown stronger in her time, Rey must be stronger than Anakin. I really do not know how else to interpret your argument, because anything else makes your citing of Snoke's dialogue a complete non-sequitor, rather than merely tenuous logic.
But rather than acknowledging the twisting inconsistencies in your own tenuous leaps of logic, you just get up on your high horse and make a big show of self-righteously calling me out, just like every other dip shit on this board who finds it easier to argue against the Straw TRR certain persons on this board have concocted, than against my actual arguments.
I made the argument that Rey was more powerful than Anakin as a novice learner ( being self-taught), and that is apparent in her various force abilities.
I would not say the force itself is somehow capable of growing stronger, because the force is not some measurable reserve of "force powers". Rather, the force has two natures, and will somehow balance itself as per Snoke's words. The more one side of the force tries to dominate the other side, the more the other side react to it. Yin and Yang.
Rey is depicted as being far more naturally talented than Anakin, which was explained by Snoke as a result of an yin-yang analogy of the force. The greater one side push the other, the stronger the pushback from the other side. So something akin to Newton's third law, in which there is an equal and opposite reaction. At the same time, the force is also not something that can be created or destroyed, and it can't become more powerful or less powerful. The force is constant, but the battle between its light and dark side can become more or less intense.
Its about both, and I acknowledged as much, if only in passing.
It is emphatically not about spending years learning to perform specific Force feats, which is what you initially appeared to me to be suggesting.
Since its about state of mind, either way, then logically some people would be more easily attuned to the correct state of mind than others, and need less time and effort to access the Force or to use it well.
And that lies the heart of people's issue with Rey as a "mary sue". She is written as someone far more attuned to the correct state of mind, with any negative consequences of drawing upon negative emotions, is dismissed. Can a character be so easily attuned from the get-go? Sure, but it will make the character's development boring to many people. There is no spiritual journey for her to embark, which becomes problematic when the heart of your narrative is supposed to be about that.
On the contrary, I acknowledge them (well, not the STRONG WOMAN MARY SUE rage, which I have nothing but contempt for, but the thinness of her characterization, yes). I simply argued (and you have not really refuted my arguments) that it is more of a TFA problem than a TLJ problem, and that at least TLJ took steps in the right direction.
I argue this is a TLJ problem because Rian Johnson sidelined her development as a spiritual person in favour of telling Luke's final character arc.
She was lured into an obvious trap, driving a wedge between her and Luke in the process, because of the Dark Side's lies effectively playing on her insecurities. But apparently none of that matters, because you say it doesn't. You have no argument, no evidence, and are directly contradicted by canon, but it doesn't matter, because you'll just make your baseless assertions and then insinuate that I am a liar when I call you on it.
What did she lose with falling into an obvious trap? She didn't exactly lose to Snoke or Kylo Ren. The trap remains relatively inconsequential for her. She learned about the truth of her parents, but managed to move on from that without much of an issue. She got her Jedi books and everything she needed to become a Jedi Knight on her own.
She fell into a trap, but climb out of it without losing anything in return. Luke lost his hand, his friend, and was entirely emotionally destroyed to the extend of wanting to kill himself.
See above. That Rey was manipulated by the Dark Side, and that she suffered both personal and strategic defeats as a result, is not opinion- it is canon fact.
I cannot believe that you are this oblivious to fact, so I can only conclude that you are lying.
Those are not facts. Those are your personal interpretation. What defeat did she suffer? Did she get physically and emotionally damaged the way Luke was? Not really, she experienced some set-back, but she manage to not let it affect her in any major way. Strategic defeat? She gained the books and got Luke to save the resistance and inspire a whole new generation.
Rey gained everything by falling into a trap. She got her answers, motivated Kylo Ren to kill off Snoke, one of her biggest threat. She help to halt the advance of the FO, she got Luke out of the cave. She won in nearly every way.
I am sorry if I gave you the impression that I was being dismissive of Eastern spirituality. That was not my intent. I'll certainly acknowledge that it was an influence (one of many) on Star Wars.
That said... I don't want to be the guy saying "I'm not racist, but...", but I can't help but feel like you are insinuating racism on my part to try to duck addressing my arguments (citing examples from throughout canon) as to how the Force works and why TLJ strengthened, at least somewhat, Rey's characterization. It certainly wouldn't be the first time someone on this board has used such tactics on me.
You've been quite dismissive of the way I interpreted the force, and keep trying to mis-construe my arguments as if I was talking about force abilities as some sort of RPG levelling up. You've been reading my points as if this was made from a misogynistic point of view, rather than trying to look at what I was actually going to say.
The way you have been approaching this discussion is to put people into respective "boxes" and constantly trying to group the people who disliked the ST as if they are one coherent sexist group, rather than people who very divergent reasons why they disliked the ST. I have addressed your points, and I have explained how I can read the same scene and ideas very differently, while you keep claiming I've somehow ignored "facts".
If you're going to call me a racist, and insinuate that my interpretation of the Force is motivated by bigotry, please say it outright. At least then I'll know where we stand.
I won't say it is motivated by bigotry, but rather someone who is in a very comfortable position of ignoring alternative interpretation of spirituality outside of the dominant Judeo-Christian worldview found in the West, especially North America. I have issues when this led to a rejection of alternative interpretations of the same movie, and a tendency to claim moral high ground by saying anyone who disagree with your interpretation is motivated by sexism.
You don't think very deeply and thoughtfully about many of your points, and that comes across as someone who is from a very privileged background.
NeoGoomba wrote: ↑
I definitely feel the whole "unearned" thing with how Rey's powers manifested themselves when compared to Luke or Anakin's, but I think again it is a failure of the film makers. Luke and Anakin could have been considered extremely lucky
when we first meet them. Sure, both of them are experienced pilots, but the Force only seemed to give them little shoves every now and then before they had any kind of training. Like both of them suddenly getting pinpoint aiming when the situation demanded it. Aside from piloting skills, they couldn't really DO Force stuff on command until much later in their lives.
Then cut to Rey who, in the space of a few days and zero training, can do shit that Luke and Anakin needed Jedi masters to help teach and develop (I will set aside her piloting skills, because that just seems to be a Force Sensitive's shtick). Like, she never showed potential
ability, she just kind of always had it and needed her switch to somehow get turned on.
But again, I don't think that this isn't a flaw of Rey the character, because I think she's pretty great as a person/character, but a flaw of writing. She could have been a true anomaly of the Force, able to do these things from birth without training. Or she could have had some old Force Sensitive teach her some tricks when she was very young, so young she thinks everyone can do it but since she's in the middle of bumfuck space, there's no one really around to see it. Instead, she's shown as a very capable young woman who suddenly gets a magic sword that teaches her level 4 sorceries. AND EVEN THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER. Luke's lightsaber passing on some of his imprinted skills and experiences or something when she held it because she is a Force Sensitive or something.
That could have been a neat thing, now that I think about it. In Episode 7 she's using borrowed/copied abilities, and in Episode 8 throws Luke's lightsaber away and lets her own powers and strengths surface while exploring what she wants out of herself and life now that she has agency. Kylo could remark that Rey stands and fights like Luke and it scares the shit out of him, leading to his defeat in 7. But in Episode 8 she forges her own path, and by Episode 9 she is a Master not of the Jedi way, but of Rey's own personal Way.
Rey isn't a dislikeable character, she is an uninteresting and underdeveloped character. Rey as a person, with her strengths and flaws as a person is not an issue for anyone ( save some really salty sexists). The problem and the reason why people called her a Mary Sue is because in comparison to Luke and Anakin ( the two other main Jedi protagonist), she has very little room to grow as a Jedi.
She has her character arc in the sense that she is searching for a family, but that's not a "hero's journey" in the traditional sense. If the directors wanted to make Rey the new chosen one, the person truly responsible for restarting the New Jedi Order, then we need to see how she grows spiritually as a person, and why she is the ideal person to lead a new Jedi Order.
Who is Rey the Jedi master going to be like? How will she teach her students? What sort of relationship will she build with her students? Luke underwent a spritual journey and grow as a person. We saw how Luke grew from a hot-headed young teen to a Jedi knight that can control his negative emotions. Luke could use his personal experience to guide his students along ( although TLJ implied Luke was unsuccessfully at that). That was the lesson Luke learned from his training with Yoda and Obi-Wan.
Rey on the other hand, is a force prodigy, with almost everything being self-taught. And she's so good at it that she didn't really experience much personal failures, or personally understand the consequences of such failures. It becomes harder to see how she can instruct students based on her personal experience.
Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.