EP 9 teaser trailer

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Re: EP 9 teaser trailer

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-04-24 09:29pm

NeoGoomba wrote:
2019-04-24 07:47am
Rey, prying circuit boards out of the Death Star II main computer: "I'm gonna get so many muffins for this"
Maybe instead of going the traditional hermit route, Rey will become a galactic trillionaire off Death Star salvage and settle down to retire in luxury? Then Episodes X-XII can be about Occupy Coruscant rising up against the One Percent represented by Rey. :D

Or she could put that money toward building her new Order.
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Re: EP 9 teaser trailer

Post by ray245 » 2019-04-24 09:51pm

FaxModem1 wrote:
2019-04-24 09:05pm
True, 8 could have been what 5 was for Luke, seeing a vision of where their road could take them if they choose poorly. I would like to have seen Rey go through a spiritual journey, but it doesn't seem to really define her, or change her. Sadly, her character arc in 8 is sacrificed to show how Luke has fallen as a character.

As others have riffed, the force isn't about moving rocks, and yet Rey saves the day by moving rocks, showing that Luke was wrong.
Rey doesn't have to go on a spiritual journey, if she is not written as the new force user. The problem is when they make Rey the new chosen one and the sole Jedi left and the one that needs to become the Jedi Master for a new generation.

They just don't know what to do with Rey other than make a a stoic character with force powers. She is here to give the fans all the nice lightsaber duels, but that's about it. The make stuff up as we go along is seriously handicapping the new Star Wars movies.
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Re: EP 9 teaser trailer

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-04-25 01:20am

ray245 wrote:
2019-04-24 04:51am
And TLJ didn't do too much to expand on her development. Hence why I'm not invested in Rey's journey to become a Jedi/Skywalker/whatever you want to call it.
I mean, I laid out the ways in which TLJ expanded on her character, and you just ignored it to assert that TLJ doesn't expand on her development. If you're not invested that's fine, we all have our own tastes, but TLJ did actually expand significantly and meaningfully on Rey's characterization.
See above.
In addition to what I've said above, it seems really weird to focus on how TLJ screwed this up, when TFA Rey was even more so.
Luke took years to master various force tricks, and his training showed us how he failed at some of the more advance skills. So, I'll say Rey is much better as an novice that Luke ever was. It's kinda hard to ignore that unless you are being very selective with your memory.


Ah, but that's not what you said. You said that TLJ portrayed Rey as more powerful than Anakin, and Luke as a novice compared to her. Luke in TLJ was no novice, and Rey is not unambiguously more powerful than Anakin.
Mary Sue often meant new powerful characters that is somehow better than the established characters to me. People had used that term on characters like Anakin as well, back in Ep 1, I think. If a new character is depicted as being more powerful with little drawbacks, that usually prompts people to say they are a Mary sue.
The definition has been broadened to the point of near-meaninglessness, but in its original meaning its not about power levels.

Also, whether Rey is "better" overall is debatable. See my argument about her numerous failures in TLJ. More powerful, yeah. But not necessarily wiser or more successful.
As darkness rises, the light rises as well. That's what Snoke said. Rey was more powerful than an untrained Anakin. That's what I'm saying.
With all due respect, that is a MASSIVE leap. It involves a) taking what Snoke said at face value, then interpreting "As darkness rises, the light rises as well" to necessarily mean "The Dark and Light Side are more powerful now than in the Prequels", rather than compared to some other intervening time period, or Snoke referring to a continuous cycle.

This is the kind of thing that pisses me off so much about ST bashers. You make the most rediculous assumptions and interpretations, and treat them as self-evident fact because it fits your narrative.
I see unlocking that emotional state (of being balanced) is why Jedi have access to the skills they have. It's not rpg grinding, but more metaphysical development. Once you mastered being zen, skills come naturally.

That is the key compelling narrative, to see how characters develop wisdom in being zen. I see the force as an extension of how Lucas viewed Buddhism, and how shaolin monks mastered their skills.

I think both JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson neglected the Buddhist elements and thinking when it comes to depicting the force, and I think you've ignored the Buddhist aspect as well.
The point is, its not about taking years to learn how to perform specific feats with the Force. Its about learning how to use the Force responsibly, about WHY to use it, and about mastering the right emotional/mental state.

I am admittedly not a scholar on Buddhism, and I doubt Johnson or Abrams (or Lucas for that matter) are either. But I do think that Rey has begun to develop a sort of wisdom in TLJ, though, by realizing that the Dark Side lies to you, and that her need for a family and identity cannot trump her duty to the Force and her friends. The logical next step would be to see her forging a new identity, and a new family, in Episode IX. We'll see if Abrams does anything at all in that direction.
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Re: EP 9 teaser trailer

Post by FaxModem1 » 2019-04-25 03:06am

Then that's disappointing, as the Jedi, in addition to being the '1970s chill dude', they were also very much the Buddhist zen monks, exuding compassion, patience, diligence, and spirituality.

Here is Yoda giving a bit of spirituality to Luke in this iconic scene, maybe even a bit of transcendence. Transcendence is letting go of the world you're in, on a physical or metaphorical level, and cleansing your preoccupations with it and how the world works: link



Here, Yoda is teaching Luke mindfulness, be in the present, and in the moment. Luke is too focused on the future, about the consequences, what might happen, what might not, and his future plans. A Jedi should focus on the present moment, what is needed, what is not, and letting go of those things that are not. Mindfulness meditation is important in Buddhism: link



And in this scene, Yoda, while ensuring that Luke works on his physical endurance, also teaches Luke some basics of Jedi philosophy, about your personal outlook, and what you bring is just as important as what you face, as shown here:



Luke fails this lesson, and it is disappointing, but it is something Luke learns over the course of the trilogy. He goes in to a room expecting a fight, so that is what he faces. Showing him what that road will lead down to, in that he will become Vader. Instead, he should follow Yoda's counsel, and try Being calm, at peace.

In the prequels, Anakin explains this to Padme, that being a Jedi is about compassion, about selfless, unconditional love for others, being a central tenet to the Jedi. Anakin has problems with letting go, and being in the moment, and doesn't take these lessons to heart, but he is aware of them. This leads to his downfall. Anakin is too used to conditional love, and is afraid of experiencing actual selfless love. The prequels have some botched delivery, but we do know that the Jedi do have spirituality.

Rey sadly doesn't receive any such lessons, so she doesn't seem to grow, or if she is, we're not party to it. The films would probably be stronger if they had such things. Seeing Rey become more of a Tao or Zen character would have shown her growing over time, and letting go of her baggage from her admittedly harsh child life. Luke got better because he was tapping into the light side, and ascending to a better connection with the force. Anakin taps into his feelings and concerns, and uses the dark side to get things done. Rey doesn't need to do either, it appears. She just taps into the force like it was mana in an RPG, and she can level up. That is why it's disappointing.

Rey gets stronger, just because.
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Re: EP 9 teaser trailer

Post by FaxModem1 » 2019-04-25 03:20am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-04-25 01:20am
I am admittedly not a scholar on Buddhism, and I doubt Johnson or Abrams (or Lucas for that matter) are either. But I do think that Rey has begun to develop a sort of wisdom in TLJ, though, by realizing that the Dark Side lies to you, and that her need for a family and identity cannot trump her duty to the Force and her friends. The logical next step would be to see her forging a new identity, and a new family, in Episode IX. We'll see if Abrams does anything at all in that direction.
Remember, Lucas once said,
George Lucas wrote:I was raised Methodist. Now let's say I'm spiritual. It's Marin County. We're all Buddhists up here.
He's also a man who considers himself a Buddhist Methodist. I'd say spirituality is very important to him, and he introduced it to the Jedi on purpose.
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Re: EP 9 teaser trailer

Post by ray245 » 2019-04-25 05:48am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-04-25 01:20am
I mean, I laid out the ways in which TLJ expanded on her character, and you just ignored it to assert that TLJ doesn't expand on her development. If you're not invested that's fine, we all have our own tastes, but TLJ did actually expand significantly and meaningfully on Rey's characterization.
I don't see it as such. I see a whole bunch of stuff that on surface, appears to be expanding her character, but is actually meaningless once you think about how those scenes actually impacted her development as a character. It's a very surface-level development.
In addition to what I've said above, it seems really weird to focus on how TLJ screwed this up, when TFA Rey was even more so.
See the above point.

Ah, but that's not what you said. You said that TLJ portrayed Rey as more powerful than Anakin, and Luke as a novice compared to her. Luke in TLJ was no novice, and Rey is not unambiguously more powerful than Anakin.
I might have mis-worded my post or you have misunderstood my point. I am saying as novices, Anakin and Luke were not better than Rey. Not they are still novice as trained Jedi compared to Rey in TLJ. Luke in Ep 4 and even Ep 5 was less powerful than Rey was in Ep 7 and 8.

The definition has been broadened to the point of near-meaninglessness, but in its original meaning its not about power levels.

Also, whether Rey is "better" overall is debatable. See my argument about her numerous failures in TLJ. More powerful, yeah. But not necessarily wiser or more successful.
Do you or do you not agree that Rey, as a beginner, was better in the physical attributes of the force than Luke and Anakin when they first started learning about the force?


With all due respect, that is a MASSIVE leap. It involves a) taking what Snoke said at face value, then interpreting "As darkness rises, the light rises as well" to necessarily mean "The Dark and Light Side are more powerful now than in the Prequels", rather than compared to some other intervening time period, or Snoke referring to a continuous cycle.

This is the kind of thing that pisses me off so much about ST bashers. You make the most rediculous assumptions and interpretations, and treat them as self-evident fact because it fits your narrative.
For fuck sake, TRR, stop twisting people's words to suit your arguments. You doing some rather bad-faith debating here, in which you twist people's words into the most ridiculous interpretations to suit your counter-arguments. I interpret Snoke's words as As the Darkside grows, the a chosen champion of the light side will grow in power/strength. Not the dark side and light side are more powerful now than the prequels. How on earth did you even assume I was interpreting it that way?

Can you debate in good faith? You call me a ST basher when you are the one that makes ridiculous assumptions and interpretations about my arguments.


The point is, its not about taking years to learn how to perform specific feats with the Force. Its about learning how to use the Force responsibly, about WHY to use it, and about mastering the right emotional/mental state.
And I think what has been developed in the past 6 films goes against your interpretation of how the force works/is about. It's not about learning to use the force responsibly, it is about learning the right path to access to the force. You can use negative emotions to gain access to the force, aka the dark side, but it will make it too easy and addictive to you.

The path of the Jedi is to learn how to gain access to the force without relying on the negative emotions, hence why Jedi learn how to mediate.


I am admittedly not a scholar on Buddhism, and I doubt Johnson or Abrams (or Lucas for that matter) are either. But I do think that Rey has begun to develop a sort of wisdom in TLJ, though, by realizing that the Dark Side lies to you, and that her need for a family and identity cannot trump her duty to the Force and her friends. The logical next step would be to see her forging a new identity, and a new family, in Episode IX. We'll see if Abrams does anything at all in that direction.
You don't have to be a scholar on Buddhism, just someone that try and read up about what Lucas wrote and thought about the notion of the force and how it relates to his views on spirituality. I find your views on the force to be rather myopic, and thus you are willing to overlook the problems some of us have with Rey's character arc and growth. The darkside lies, but Rey didn't get affected by it in anyway. Luke failed and was utterly defeated by Vader in ESB because of his mistake, and he paid for it dearly. The same cannot be said about Rey.

I think you, Johnson and Abrams are too comfortable in your myopic view on spirituality (irregardless of your religious faith or lack of one), and thus have a very thematically limited view on Lucas's original vision of what the force is all about in his movies. It does make me ( especially someone from an "eastern" background) to find new generations of SW directors being less willing to engage with the very eastern-influence of the Star Wars. Defending the way ST movies interpreted the force just makes me feel like you are coming from a rather privileged position as a "westerner", someone that downplays eastern influence in films and pop-culture.


FaxModem1 wrote:
2019-04-25 03:20am
Remember, Lucas once said,
George Lucas wrote:I was raised Methodist. Now let's say I'm spiritual. It's Marin County. We're all Buddhists up here.
He's also a man who considers himself a Buddhist Methodist. I'd say spirituality is very important to him, and he introduced it to the Jedi on purpose.
It does make me very uncomfortable with people that overlook the eastern-influence and the role of spirituality on Star Wars, espeically if they are a "westerner".
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Re: EP 9 teaser trailer

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-04-25 07:30am

ray245 wrote:
2019-04-25 05:48am
I don't see it as such. I see a whole bunch of stuff that on surface, appears to be expanding her character, but is actually meaningless once you think about how those scenes actually impacted her development as a character. It's a very surface-level development.
How does her insecurities about her identity making her easy for the Dark Side/Kylo/Snoke to manipulate not impact her character? How does her subsequent rejection of Kylo's offer not impact her character? Explain.

Assertions do not equal sound arguments.
See the above point.
Neither does repetition.
I might have mis-worded my post or you have misunderstood my point. I am saying as novices, Anakin and Luke were not better than Rey. Not they are still novice as trained Jedi compared to Rey in TLJ. Luke in Ep 4 and even Ep 5 was less powerful than Rey was in Ep 7 and 8.
Perhaps you were unclear, yes.

As to how Rey as an novice Force user compares to Anakin as a novice and Luke as a novice, I would say she learns faster than Luke overall (though Luke surpassed her in certain specific fields), but Anakin is at least as rediculous. I defy anyone to watch nine year old Anakin blowing up a command ship essentially by accident/dumb luck, and tell me that that is less absurdly overpowered than anything Rey has ever done.

But I love how you outright admit that the standard for Rey being a bad character/Mary Sue is "She is more powerful than a male protagonist."
Do you or do you not agree that Rey, as a beginner, was better in the physical attributes of the force than Luke and Anakin when they first started learning about the force?
As above, better than Luke, yes. Better than Anakin, no, at least not unambiguously so.

In any case, however, its a moot point, because being exceptionally strong in the Force does not make her a "Mary Sue" or a bad character. Is your argument really "Rey is a bad character because she's more powerful than (insert male character here)"?
For fuck sake, TRR, stop twisting people's words to suit your arguments. You doing some rather bad-faith debating here, in which you twist people's words into the most ridiculous interpretations to suit your counter-arguments. I interpret Snoke's words as As the Darkside grows, the a chosen champion of the light side will grow in power/strength. Not the dark side and light side are more powerful now than the prequels. How on earth did you even assume I was interpreting it that way?

Can you debate in good faith? You call me a ST basher when you are the one that makes ridiculous assumptions and interpretations about my arguments.
Oh BULL FUCKING SHIT.

You asserted that Rey is more powerful than Anakin, and backed this up by citing Snoke's line about the Dark Side and the Light Side growing stronger. The logical implication being that because the Force has grown stronger in her time, Rey must be stronger than Anakin. I really do not know how else to interpret your argument, because anything else makes your citing of Snoke's dialogue a complete non-sequitor, rather than merely tenuous logic.

But rather than acknowledging the twisting inconsistencies in your own tenuous leaps of logic, you just get up on your high horse and make a big show of self-righteously calling me out, just like every other dip shit on this board who finds it easier to argue against the Straw TRR certain persons on this board have concocted, than against my actual arguments.
And I think what has been developed in the past 6 films goes against your interpretation of how the force works/is about. It's not about learning to use the force responsibly, it is about learning the right path to access to the force. You can use negative emotions to gain access to the force, aka the dark side, but it will make it too easy and addictive to you.

The path of the Jedi is to learn how to gain access to the force without relying on the negative emotions, hence why Jedi learn how to mediate.
Its about both, and I acknowledged as much, if only in passing.

It is emphatically not about spending years learning to perform specific Force feats, which is what you initially appeared to me to be suggesting.

Since its about state of mind, either way, then logically some people would be more easily attuned to the correct state of mind than others, and need less time and effort to access the Force or to use it well.
You don't have to be a scholar on Buddhism, just someone that try and read up about what Lucas wrote and thought about the notion of the force and how it relates to his views on spirituality. I find your views on the force to be rather myopic, and thus you are willing to overlook the problems some of us have with Rey's character arc and growth.
On the contrary, I acknowledge them (well, not the STRONG WOMAN MARY SUE rage, which I have nothing but contempt for, but the thinness of her characterization, yes). I simply argued (and you have not really refuted my arguments) that it is more of a TFA problem than a TLJ problem, and that at least TLJ took steps in the right direction.
The darkside lies, but Rey didn't get affected by it in anyway.
Excuse me?

She was lured into an obvious trap, driving a wedge between her and Luke in the process, because of the Dark Side's lies effectively playing on her insecurities. But apparently none of that matters, because you say it doesn't. You have no argument, no evidence, and are directly contradicted by canon, but it doesn't matter, because you'll just make your baseless assertions and then insinuate that I am a liar when I call you on it.
Luke failed and was utterly defeated by Vader in ESB because of his mistake, and he paid for it dearly. The same cannot be said about Rey.
See above. That Rey was manipulated by the Dark Side, and that she suffered both personal and strategic defeats as a result, is not opinion- it is canon fact.

I cannot believe that you are this oblivious to fact, so I can only conclude that you are lying.
I think you, Johnson and Abrams are too comfortable in your myopic view on spirituality (irregardless of your religious faith or lack of one), and thus have a very thematically limited view on Lucas's original vision of what the force is all about in his movies. It does make me ( especially someone from an "eastern" background) to find new generations of SW directors being less willing to engage with the very eastern-influence of the Star Wars. Defending the way ST movies interpreted the force just makes me feel like you are coming from a rather privileged position as a "westerner", someone that downplays eastern influence in films and pop-culture.
I am sorry if I gave you the impression that I was being dismissive of Eastern spirituality. That was not my intent. I'll certainly acknowledge that it was an influence (one of many) on Star Wars.

That said... I don't want to be the guy saying "I'm not racist, but...", but I can't help but feel like you are insinuating racism on my part to try to duck addressing my arguments (citing examples from throughout canon) as to how the Force works and why TLJ strengthened, at least somewhat, Rey's characterization. It certainly wouldn't be the first time someone on this board has used such tactics on me.
It does make me very uncomfortable with people that overlook the eastern-influence and the role of spirituality on Star Wars, espeically if they are a "westerner".
If you're going to call me a racist, and insinuate that my interpretation of the Force is motivated by bigotry, please say it outright. At least then I'll know where we stand.
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Re: EP 9 teaser trailer

Post by NeoGoomba » 2019-04-25 08:14am

I definitely feel the whole "unearned" thing with how Rey's powers manifested themselves when compared to Luke or Anakin's, but I think again it is a failure of the film makers. Luke and Anakin could have been considered extremely lucky when we first meet them. Sure, both of them are experienced pilots, but the Force only seemed to give them little shoves every now and then before they had any kind of training. Like both of them suddenly getting pinpoint aiming when the situation demanded it. Aside from piloting skills, they couldn't really DO Force stuff on command until much later in their lives.

Then cut to Rey who, in the space of a few days and zero training, can do shit that Luke and Anakin needed Jedi masters to help teach and develop (I will set aside her piloting skills, because that just seems to be a Force Sensitive's shtick). Like, she never showed potential ability, she just kind of always had it and needed her switch to somehow get turned on.

But again, I don't think that this isn't a flaw of Rey the character, because I think she's pretty great as a person/character, but a flaw of writing. She could have been a true anomaly of the Force, able to do these things from birth without training. Or she could have had some old Force Sensitive teach her some tricks when she was very young, so young she thinks everyone can do it but since she's in the middle of bumfuck space, there's no one really around to see it. Instead, she's shown as a very capable young woman who suddenly gets a magic sword that teaches her level 4 sorceries. AND EVEN THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER. Luke's lightsaber passing on some of his imprinted skills and experiences or something when she held it because she is a Force Sensitive or something.

That could have been a neat thing, now that I think about it. In Episode 7 she's using borrowed/copied abilities, and in Episode 8 throws Luke's lightsaber away and lets her own powers and strengths surface while exploring what she wants out of herself and life now that she has agency. Kylo could remark that Rey stands and fights like Luke and it scares the shit out of him, leading to his defeat in 7. But in Episode 8 she forges her own path, and by Episode 9 she is a Master not of the Jedi way, but of Rey's own personal Way.

/ramble
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Re: EP 9 teaser trailer

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-04-25 08:32am

I think Rey fits best if you view her as an equal to/reincarnation of Anakin. Snoke's dialogue certainly seems to imply something along those lines, as does some of Luke's. And I don't think the ease with which she gained certain powers is any more preposterous than little kiddie Anakin taking out a warship at nine. That was more than just luck. At least Rey is, you know, an adult when she pulls crazy Jedi shit with almost no training.

You could say her powers are "unearned", but getting handed bucket-loads of powers is kind of how the Chosen One thing works. Neo gets one sparring session with Morpheus and a bunch of brain downloads and his fighting like an Agent. Superman gets his powers from... exposure to our Sun. What's more meaningful, at least to me, than seeing her struggle to learn her powers, is seeing her struggle to deal with and apply that extraordinary power. And TLJ shows that she is... not awful at that, because she did ultimately resist the temptation of the Dark Side, but not great either, due to her insecurities about her identity and being generally naive about the Dark Side.

The real question is what IX does- how it shows, or doesn't show, Rey developing as a character based on her experiences in TLJ. My fear is that Abrams will basically pretend TLJ never happened and revert Rey to the shallower character of TFA, and then leave her like that- meaning that her personality would have to be largely inferred by fans devising their own headcanon based on whatever scraps the writers gave us.
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Re: EP 9 teaser trailer

Post by ray245 » 2019-04-25 08:43am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-04-25 07:30am
How does her insecurities about her identity making her easy for the Dark Side/Kylo/Snoke to manipulate not impact her character? How does her subsequent rejection of Kylo's offer not impact her character? Explain.

Assertions do not equal sound arguments.
Because that did not impact her spiritual growth? She was prone to drawing upon negative emotions to help her in fights and etc, and she is still at the same stage by the end of the movie.
Neither does repetition.
Perhaps you can try and read my post instead of ignoring it.
Perhaps you were unclear, yes.

As to how Rey as an novice Force user compares to Anakin as a novice and Luke as a novice, I would say she learns faster than Luke overall (though Luke surpassed her in certain specific fields), but Anakin is at least as rediculous. I defy anyone to watch nine year old Anakin blowing up a command ship essentially by accident/dumb luck, and tell me that that is less absurdly overpowered than anything Rey has ever done.
Anakin's actions was guided by the force, but Anakin as a untrained 9 year old did not produce any physical force abilties beyond being able to "see" the right path to take.
But I love how you outright admit that the standard for Rey being a bad character/Mary Sue is "She is more powerful than a male protagonist."
Stop trying to bring gender into this discussion, when the only two Jedi protagonist prior to EP 7 were male. This is just debating in bad faith because you want to label your opponents as sexists. So we can never compare Rey to Luke and Anakin because we have no female Jedi protagonist? Is that what you are saying?

As above, better than Luke, yes. Better than Anakin, no, at least not unambiguously so.

In any case, however, its a moot point, because being exceptionally strong in the Force does not make her a "Mary Sue" or a bad character. Is your argument really "Rey is a bad character because she's more powerful than (insert male character here)"?
She managed to gain more force abilites than Anakin did in Ep 1. So yes, I see her as more powerful than Anakin. There's nothing wrong with being exceptionally powerful, the point is whether her powers is connected to her spiritual growth ( which was something Anakin and Luke had to learn).




Oh BULL FUCKING SHIT.

You asserted that Rey is more powerful than Anakin, and backed this up by citing Snoke's line about the Dark Side and the Light Side growing stronger. The logical implication being that because the Force has grown stronger in her time, Rey must be stronger than Anakin. I really do not know how else to interpret your argument, because anything else makes your citing of Snoke's dialogue a complete non-sequitor, rather than merely tenuous logic.

But rather than acknowledging the twisting inconsistencies in your own tenuous leaps of logic, you just get up on your high horse and make a big show of self-righteously calling me out, just like every other dip shit on this board who finds it easier to argue against the Straw TRR certain persons on this board have concocted, than against my actual arguments.
I made the argument that Rey was more powerful than Anakin as a novice learner ( being self-taught), and that is apparent in her various force abilities.

I would not say the force itself is somehow capable of growing stronger, because the force is not some measurable reserve of "force powers". Rather, the force has two natures, and will somehow balance itself as per Snoke's words. The more one side of the force tries to dominate the other side, the more the other side react to it. Yin and Yang.

Rey is depicted as being far more naturally talented than Anakin, which was explained by Snoke as a result of an yin-yang analogy of the force. The greater one side push the other, the stronger the pushback from the other side. So something akin to Newton's third law, in which there is an equal and opposite reaction. At the same time, the force is also not something that can be created or destroyed, and it can't become more powerful or less powerful. The force is constant, but the battle between its light and dark side can become more or less intense.

Its about both, and I acknowledged as much, if only in passing.

It is emphatically not about spending years learning to perform specific Force feats, which is what you initially appeared to me to be suggesting.

Since its about state of mind, either way, then logically some people would be more easily attuned to the correct state of mind than others, and need less time and effort to access the Force or to use it well.
And that lies the heart of people's issue with Rey as a "mary sue". She is written as someone far more attuned to the correct state of mind, with any negative consequences of drawing upon negative emotions, is dismissed. Can a character be so easily attuned from the get-go? Sure, but it will make the character's development boring to many people. There is no spiritual journey for her to embark, which becomes problematic when the heart of your narrative is supposed to be about that.


On the contrary, I acknowledge them (well, not the STRONG WOMAN MARY SUE rage, which I have nothing but contempt for, but the thinness of her characterization, yes). I simply argued (and you have not really refuted my arguments) that it is more of a TFA problem than a TLJ problem, and that at least TLJ took steps in the right direction.
I argue this is a TLJ problem because Rian Johnson sidelined her development as a spiritual person in favour of telling Luke's final character arc.
Excuse me?

She was lured into an obvious trap, driving a wedge between her and Luke in the process, because of the Dark Side's lies effectively playing on her insecurities. But apparently none of that matters, because you say it doesn't. You have no argument, no evidence, and are directly contradicted by canon, but it doesn't matter, because you'll just make your baseless assertions and then insinuate that I am a liar when I call you on it.
What did she lose with falling into an obvious trap? She didn't exactly lose to Snoke or Kylo Ren. The trap remains relatively inconsequential for her. She learned about the truth of her parents, but managed to move on from that without much of an issue. She got her Jedi books and everything she needed to become a Jedi Knight on her own.

She fell into a trap, but climb out of it without losing anything in return. Luke lost his hand, his friend, and was entirely emotionally destroyed to the extend of wanting to kill himself.

See above. That Rey was manipulated by the Dark Side, and that she suffered both personal and strategic defeats as a result, is not opinion- it is canon fact.

I cannot believe that you are this oblivious to fact, so I can only conclude that you are lying.
Those are not facts. Those are your personal interpretation. What defeat did she suffer? Did she get physically and emotionally damaged the way Luke was? Not really, she experienced some set-back, but she manage to not let it affect her in any major way. Strategic defeat? She gained the books and got Luke to save the resistance and inspire a whole new generation.

Rey gained everything by falling into a trap. She got her answers, motivated Kylo Ren to kill off Snoke, one of her biggest threat. She help to halt the advance of the FO, she got Luke out of the cave. She won in nearly every way.


I am sorry if I gave you the impression that I was being dismissive of Eastern spirituality. That was not my intent. I'll certainly acknowledge that it was an influence (one of many) on Star Wars.

That said... I don't want to be the guy saying "I'm not racist, but...", but I can't help but feel like you are insinuating racism on my part to try to duck addressing my arguments (citing examples from throughout canon) as to how the Force works and why TLJ strengthened, at least somewhat, Rey's characterization. It certainly wouldn't be the first time someone on this board has used such tactics on me.
You've been quite dismissive of the way I interpreted the force, and keep trying to mis-construe my arguments as if I was talking about force abilities as some sort of RPG levelling up. You've been reading my points as if this was made from a misogynistic point of view, rather than trying to look at what I was actually going to say.

The way you have been approaching this discussion is to put people into respective "boxes" and constantly trying to group the people who disliked the ST as if they are one coherent sexist group, rather than people who very divergent reasons why they disliked the ST. I have addressed your points, and I have explained how I can read the same scene and ideas very differently, while you keep claiming I've somehow ignored "facts".

If you're going to call me a racist, and insinuate that my interpretation of the Force is motivated by bigotry, please say it outright. At least then I'll know where we stand.
I won't say it is motivated by bigotry, but rather someone who is in a very comfortable position of ignoring alternative interpretation of spirituality outside of the dominant Judeo-Christian worldview found in the West, especially North America. I have issues when this led to a rejection of alternative interpretations of the same movie, and a tendency to claim moral high ground by saying anyone who disagree with your interpretation is motivated by sexism.

You don't think very deeply and thoughtfully about many of your points, and that comes across as someone who is from a very privileged background.

NeoGoomba wrote:
2019-04-25 08:14am
I definitely feel the whole "unearned" thing with how Rey's powers manifested themselves when compared to Luke or Anakin's, but I think again it is a failure of the film makers. Luke and Anakin could have been considered extremely lucky when we first meet them. Sure, both of them are experienced pilots, but the Force only seemed to give them little shoves every now and then before they had any kind of training. Like both of them suddenly getting pinpoint aiming when the situation demanded it. Aside from piloting skills, they couldn't really DO Force stuff on command until much later in their lives.

Then cut to Rey who, in the space of a few days and zero training, can do shit that Luke and Anakin needed Jedi masters to help teach and develop (I will set aside her piloting skills, because that just seems to be a Force Sensitive's shtick). Like, she never showed potential ability, she just kind of always had it and needed her switch to somehow get turned on.

But again, I don't think that this isn't a flaw of Rey the character, because I think she's pretty great as a person/character, but a flaw of writing. She could have been a true anomaly of the Force, able to do these things from birth without training. Or she could have had some old Force Sensitive teach her some tricks when she was very young, so young she thinks everyone can do it but since she's in the middle of bumfuck space, there's no one really around to see it. Instead, she's shown as a very capable young woman who suddenly gets a magic sword that teaches her level 4 sorceries. AND EVEN THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER. Luke's lightsaber passing on some of his imprinted skills and experiences or something when she held it because she is a Force Sensitive or something.

That could have been a neat thing, now that I think about it. In Episode 7 she's using borrowed/copied abilities, and in Episode 8 throws Luke's lightsaber away and lets her own powers and strengths surface while exploring what she wants out of herself and life now that she has agency. Kylo could remark that Rey stands and fights like Luke and it scares the shit out of him, leading to his defeat in 7. But in Episode 8 she forges her own path, and by Episode 9 she is a Master not of the Jedi way, but of Rey's own personal Way.

/ramble
Rey isn't a dislikeable character, she is an uninteresting and underdeveloped character. Rey as a person, with her strengths and flaws as a person is not an issue for anyone ( save some really salty sexists). The problem and the reason why people called her a Mary Sue is because in comparison to Luke and Anakin ( the two other main Jedi protagonist), she has very little room to grow as a Jedi.

She has her character arc in the sense that she is searching for a family, but that's not a "hero's journey" in the traditional sense. If the directors wanted to make Rey the new chosen one, the person truly responsible for restarting the New Jedi Order, then we need to see how she grows spiritually as a person, and why she is the ideal person to lead a new Jedi Order.

Who is Rey the Jedi master going to be like? How will she teach her students? What sort of relationship will she build with her students? Luke underwent a spritual journey and grow as a person. We saw how Luke grew from a hot-headed young teen to a Jedi knight that can control his negative emotions. Luke could use his personal experience to guide his students along ( although TLJ implied Luke was unsuccessfully at that). That was the lesson Luke learned from his training with Yoda and Obi-Wan.

Rey on the other hand, is a force prodigy, with almost everything being self-taught. And she's so good at it that she didn't really experience much personal failures, or personally understand the consequences of such failures. It becomes harder to see how she can instruct students based on her personal experience.
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Re: EP 9 teaser trailer

Post by NeoGoomba » 2019-04-25 08:50am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-04-25 08:32am

You could say her powers are "unearned", but getting handed bucket-loads of powers is kind of how the Chosen One thing works. Neo gets one sparring session with Morpheus and a bunch of brain downloads and his fighting like an Agent. Superman gets his powers from... exposure to our Sun.
But she wasn't given any powers by an external force (hah) and I think that is where the issue lies. Superman is given powers, yeah, but he still has to go to the Fortress of Solitude as a teen and be TAUGHT. Neo is TAUGHT those skills, sure it is via a shortcut, but knowledge is gained. Luke needs Ben and then Yoda. Anakin needs Ben. Rey just picked everything up on the fly.

And what I'm trying to say is that if there was just one extra scene when she held Luke's lightsaber that showed some kind of transfer or download or SOMETHING that activated her latent force abilities, I think all of this Mary Sue bullshit would have been DOA. At the very least they could have had Kylo do it accidentally or something. But what we are viewers are given is he tries a complex mind trick on her, she basically goes "Oh" and does it right back. That...kind of sucks from a storytelling point of view, I think.
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Re: EP 9 teaser trailer

Post by NeoGoomba » 2019-04-25 08:52am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-04-25 08:32am

You could say her powers are "unearned", but getting handed bucket-loads of powers is kind of how the Chosen One thing works. Neo gets one sparring session with Morpheus and a bunch of brain downloads and his fighting like an Agent. Superman gets his powers from... exposure to our Sun.
But she wasn't given any powers by an external force (hah) and I think that is where the issue lies. Superman is given powers, yeah, but he still has to go to the Fortress of Solitude as a teen and be TAUGHT. Neo is TAUGHT those skills, sure it is via a shortcut, but knowledge is gained. Luke needs Ben and then Yoda. Anakin needs Ben. Rey just picked everything up on the fly.

And what I'm trying to say is that if there was just one extra scene when she held Luke's lightsaber that showed some kind of transfer or download or SOMETHING that activated her latent force abilities, I think all of this Mary Sue bullshit would have been DOA. At the very least they could have had Kylo do it accidentally or something. But what we are viewers are given is he tries a complex mind trick on her, she basically goes "Oh" and does it right back. That...kind of sucks from a storytelling point of view, I think.

Who is Rey the Jedi master going to be like? How will she teach her students? What sort of relationship will she build with her students? Luke underwent a spritual journey and grow as a person. We saw how Luke grew from a hot-headed young teen to a Jedi knight that can control his negative emotions. Luke could use his personal experience to guide his students along ( although TLJ implied Luke was unsuccessfully at that). That was the lesson Luke learned from his training with Yoda and Obi-Wan.

Rey on the other hand, is a force prodigy, with almost everything being self-taught. And she's so good at it that she didn't really experience much personal failures, or personally understand the consequences of such failures. It becomes harder to see how she can instruct students based on her personal experience.
You can still have all of this, it is just the initial handling of it all was botched pretty badly. How Abrams treated the Force was pretty...eh. All I can think of his Han shouting "The Force doesn't work that way!" over and over again as he watches from the afterlife now.
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Re: EP 9 teaser trailer

Post by ray245 » 2019-04-25 09:02am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-04-25 08:32am
I think Rey fits best if you view her as an equal to/reincarnation of Anakin. Snoke's dialogue certainly seems to imply something along those lines, as does some of Luke's. And I don't think the ease with which she gained certain powers is any more preposterous than little kiddie Anakin taking out a warship at nine. That was more than just luck. At least Rey is, you know, an adult when she pulls crazy Jedi shit with almost no training.
I'll reply to this as you have clarifed by how you measure someone as being "powerful". I don't see kid Anakin's antics as being more powerful than Rey. Just because a bigger warship was blown up doesn't make Anakin more "powerful". I see it as the first and easiest step someone is able to take as a novice force user. The first step is to allow yourself to be guided by the force and let the force do most of the work for you.

As you become more proficient and more connected to the force, you can access the force in different ways. That's why training is important. Training is about learning how to move beyond step 1.

You could say her powers are "unearned", but getting handed bucket-loads of powers is kind of how the Chosen One thing works. Neo gets one sparring session with Morpheus and a bunch of brain downloads and his fighting like an Agent. Superman gets his powers from... exposure to our Sun. What's more meaningful, at least to me, than seeing her struggle to learn her powers, is seeing her struggle to deal with and apply that extraordinary power. And TLJ shows that she is... not awful at that, because she did ultimately resist the temptation of the Dark Side, but not great either, due to her insecurities about her identity and being generally naive about the Dark Side.
Merely seeing her apply her powers meant she doesn't have much of a spiritual journey to go on in the first place. She's not at the level of being a Jedi Master, but she is certainly at the level of a Jedi knight. And I seriously doubt JJ Abrams is going to do much and explore how she learn to become a Jedi Master in Ep 9.
The real question is what IX does- how it shows, or doesn't show, Rey developing as a character based on her experiences in TLJ. My fear is that Abrams will basically pretend TLJ never happened and revert Rey to the shallower character of TFA, and then leave her like that- meaning that her personality would have to be largely inferred by fans devising their own headcanon based on whatever scraps the writers gave us.
I think this is probably what is going to happen to her.


NeoGoomba wrote:
2019-04-25 08:50am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-04-25 08:32am

You could say her powers are "unearned", but getting handed bucket-loads of powers is kind of how the Chosen One thing works. Neo gets one sparring session with Morpheus and a bunch of brain downloads and his fighting like an Agent. Superman gets his powers from... exposure to our Sun.
But she wasn't given any powers by an external force (hah) and I think that is where the issue lies. Superman is given powers, yeah, but he still has to go to the Fortress of Solitude as a teen and be TAUGHT. Neo is TAUGHT those skills, sure it is via a shortcut, but knowledge is gained. Luke needs Ben and then Yoda. Anakin needs Ben. Rey just picked everything up on the fly.

And what I'm trying to say is that if there was just one extra scene when she held Luke's lightsaber that showed some kind of transfer or download or SOMETHING that activated her latent force abilities, I think all of this Mary Sue bullshit would have been DOA. At the very least they could have had Kylo do it accidentally or something. But what we are viewers are given is he tries a complex mind trick on her, she basically goes "Oh" and does it right back. That...kind of sucks from a storytelling point of view, I think.
Exactly. There's no real "hero's journey" or quest for Rey to gain "enlightenment". Her journey to gain friends and acceptance works...if Luke wasn't killed off and she has to bear the burden of being the new grandmaster of the Jedi Order alone.

We barely even get scenes of Rey gaining full acceptance by Luke because she ran off and never interacted with him again. Because if Rey's journey is about gaining friends and family, that was a bad attempt at showing that.

NeoGoomba wrote:
2019-04-25 08:52am
You can still have all of this, it is just the initial handling of it all was botched pretty badly. How Abrams treated the Force was pretty...eh. All I can think of his Han shouting "The Force doesn't work that way!" over and over again as he watches from the afterlife now.
Abrams is not a very deep thinker as a film-maker. Abrams is very much driven by the "rule-of-cool", and pays little attention to the consequences of writing or depicting the story in a certain manner. The force abilities in TFA was just an attempt to show off all the cool force skills, and judging by the trailer for Ep 9, he seems to be doing that again.
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Re: EP 9 teaser trailer

Post by Civil War Man » 2019-04-25 11:06am

I think citing Neo is not a very good example of Chosen Ones and unearned power, at least with the original Matrix. He was the Chosen One because he had the potential to do things that others could not, but it was still something he had to learn. Having a ton of martial arts experience downloaded into his brain was the least important part of his development, especially since that was something all of the non-free-range humans had access to. If that was all that was needed to get him fighting on par with the Agents, then anyone could do it. Neo didn't really hit the point of being able to stand toe to toe with an Agent until the subway fight with Smith. And even then, he was only able to do it for a limited amount of time. He barely managed to pull out a win against Smith, and that win proved to be largely pointless because Smith immediately downloaded himself into a fresh new body.

The important part of Neo's growth was the breakdown of the mental barriers that prevented him from achieving his full potential. He had moments of clarity throughout the movie, slowly becoming more enlightened until he was able to fight Smith for a while, but didn't fully come into his own until his death broke down the last barrier and he realized that he didn't even need those martial arts skills to beat the Agents. As Morpheus foreshadowed, he learned how to dodge bullets, but he wasn't ready until he realized that he didn't have to.

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Re: EP 9 teaser trailer

Post by NeoGoomba » 2019-04-25 11:11am

I did always wonder about the other "potentials" the Oracle had in her place. Did they all have the same kind of "code" or whatever that Neo had that would give them the potential to be The One, and all that was missing was the mental drive? Or, probably more likely knowing her, were they all there just to mess with Neo's head?

But regardless, yeah, Neo still had to go on an almost spiritual path before he hit actualization. Regarding him and Rey, it would seem like Abrams was only looking at the kung fu and not at the thought and reflection behind it all.
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Re: EP 9 teaser trailer

Post by Civil War Man » 2019-04-25 11:54am

NeoGoomba wrote:
2019-04-25 11:11am
I did always wonder about the other "potentials" the Oracle had in her place. Did they all have the same kind of "code" or whatever that Neo had that would give them the potential to be The One, and all that was missing was the mental drive? Or, probably more likely knowing her, were they all there just to mess with Neo's head?
I think the later movies, once they established that the Oracle was a program, implied that it was the latter and that they were also programs, particularly the spoon kid. It's been a long time since I saw the second movie, and I've never seen the third all the way through, though, so I can't say for sure.

The mention of Superman, though, I think is an interesting comparison regarding Rey, since a lot of complaints about Rey as a character are similar to complaints about Superman. The core of Superman, barring various what-ifs, reimaginings, and Zack Snyders, is that he is both physically superior to everyone else and mentally and emotionally incorruptible, which brings about questions of how you make interesting stories with him as the protagonist because there is almost nothing that is a serious threat to him.

Rey is not on that level, but criticism of her depiction here comes from a similar place. Physically, the criticism is often focused on her suddenly possessing whatever mastery of the Force she needs in order to overcome the obstacles before her (with the biggest culprit being her ability to read and influence minds in TFA when she had only fairly recently learned that the Force was actually real). Emotionally/mentally, the complaints are either that she doesn't struggle with temptation or corruption, or that she very quickly overcomes it when she does experience it. The message I get, at least from her depiction in TLJ, is that her biggest struggle in this regard is that she was looking for emotional fulfillment in the wrong places (trying to find a family that doesn't really exist). Even then, she seems to get over setbacks on that front relatively quickly, since it's a span of minutes between her tearfully admitting that the family she was trying to recover was a fantasy and whooping it up as she blows up TIE Fighters with the Millennium Falcon's gun turret.

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Re: EP 9 teaser trailer

Post by Lord Revan » 2019-04-25 12:45pm

Civil War Man wrote:
2019-04-25 11:54am
NeoGoomba wrote:
2019-04-25 11:11am
I did always wonder about the other "potentials" the Oracle had in her place. Did they all have the same kind of "code" or whatever that Neo had that would give them the potential to be The One, and all that was missing was the mental drive? Or, probably more likely knowing her, were they all there just to mess with Neo's head?
I think the later movies, once they established that the Oracle was a program, implied that it was the latter and that they were also programs, particularly the spoon kid. It's been a long time since I saw the second movie, and I've never seen the third all the way through, though, so I can't say for sure.

The mention of Superman, though, I think is an interesting comparison regarding Rey, since a lot of complaints about Rey as a character are similar to complaints about Superman. The core of Superman, barring various what-ifs, reimaginings, and Zack Snyders, is that he is both physically superior to everyone else and mentally and emotionally incorruptible, which brings about questions of how you make interesting stories with him as the protagonist because there is almost nothing that is a serious threat to him.

Rey is not on that level, but criticism of her depiction here comes from a similar place. Physically, the criticism is often focused on her suddenly possessing whatever mastery of the Force she needs in order to overcome the obstacles before her (with the biggest culprit being her ability to read and influence minds in TFA when she had only fairly recently learned that the Force was actually real). Emotionally/mentally, the complaints are either that she doesn't struggle with temptation or corruption, or that she very quickly overcomes it when she does experience it. The message I get, at least from her depiction in TLJ, is that her biggest struggle in this regard is that she was looking for emotional fulfillment in the wrong places (trying to find a family that doesn't really exist). Even then, she seems to get over setbacks on that front relatively quickly, since it's a span of minutes between her tearfully admitting that the family she was trying to recover was a fantasy and whooping it up as she blows up TIE Fighters with the Millennium Falcon's gun turret.
I think in a way Rey is harder to write for then Superman since you can turn the fact that Superman is so "perfect" into a story point, either as "how can a perfect immortal being relate to us imperfect mortals" or have superman maintain that image of perfect paragon of virtue be a source of inner conflict for him whole "world of cardboard" thing from the Justice League series. Rey on the otherhand is at her core still a mortal imperfect human, sure she may be more virteous then a typical human and have powers no normal human has but not the scale of Superman and it has been shown that jedi can be defeated by normal humans.
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Re: EP 9 teaser trailer

Post by FaxModem1 » 2019-04-25 03:17pm

My main issue is that Rey's growing power seems to come out of nowhere, storywise, aside from 'Rey needs to be this powerful now', at the expense of her character. Rey has a great setup, someone abandoned on salvage-world, but with great potential, force and otherwise.

TFA sets up her journey, but does so with her getting to skip a few steps. She is essentially a force-savant. Doesn't know how to mind battle? Kylo tries against her, and she does it right back. Then she mind tricks a guard, and then seems to download how to use lightsabers in time for the climactic battle. So Rey's journey force-wise is going to be slamming the 'easy button' any time she runs into an obstacle, okay. We're not going to go the spiritual route, and see how becoming this strong affects her, or what temptations she faces, or why she is like that.

Then let's look at her as a protagonist. She is wanting to become a Jedi. Do we know why, aside from that she wants to find her family? We know that she cares about some people in the Resistance, and wants to help them fight the First Order to some level. She also has some connection to Ben/Kylo Ren, due to Snoke's manipulations, so who knows if any of that is real?

Who is Rey, when she is by herself, in the dark? We don't know. We do know that she's going to remake the Jedi Order, but in what shape?

We knew, at this point in the trilogy, who her counterpart protagonists were. Luke was a young farmboy chasing the image of his father and trying to become that, and was utterly devastated by the revelation that the dream he was pursuing was an utter lie. In ROTJ, he grows past it and becomes his own man, a true Jedi.

Anakin was a slave brought into the order, who has anger issues, and is unable to let go in the Jedi style. He's also secretly romancing Padme, and living in seeming fear of losing what he has, either as a Jedi or his wife. By ROTS, war has made him harder, and his anger issues are easy for someone else to manipulate, and that combined with his fear of being found out, leads to his turn to the dark side, and eventual losing everything.

Rey isn't on either sort of journey. Do we even know why she's becoming a Jedi?
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Re: EP 9 teaser trailer

Post by NeoGoomba » 2019-04-25 03:40pm

I THINK to find her parents? Maybe?
(I'm not being facetious, I honestly think this is what the intention was)
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Re: EP 9 teaser trailer

Post by Civil War Man » 2019-04-25 03:50pm

FaxModem1 wrote:
2019-04-25 03:17pm
My main issue is that Rey's growing power seems to come out of nowhere, storywise, aside from 'Rey needs to be this powerful now', at the expense of her character. Rey has a great setup, someone abandoned on salvage-world, but with great potential, force and otherwise.

TFA sets up her journey, but does so with her getting to skip a few steps. She is essentially a force-savant. Doesn't know how to mind battle? Kylo tries against her, and she does it right back. Then she mind tricks a guard, and then seems to download how to use lightsabers in time for the climactic battle. So Rey's journey force-wise is going to be slamming the 'easy button' any time she runs into an obstacle, okay. We're not going to go the spiritual route, and see how becoming this strong affects her, or what temptations she faces, or why she is like that.
While I agree that the writing for her has been sloppy at times, I don't have a problem at all with the lightsaber thing. She was established fairly early on at being at least a competent melee fighter, and without the Force fighting with a lightsaber is pretty much just regular sword fighting with a sword that is heavily balanced towards the hilt. It's like how learning kung fu is the least important part of Neo's growth. Plus, as has often been pointed out, she was going up against a wounded and emotionally compromised Kylo Ren, and was still losing for most of the fight until she had one of those Neo-like moments where one of her mental barriers temporarily comes down.
Then let's look at her as a protagonist. She is wanting to become a Jedi. Do we know why, aside from that she wants to find her family? We know that she cares about some people in the Resistance, and wants to help them fight the First Order to some level. She also has some connection to Ben/Kylo Ren, due to Snoke's manipulations, so who knows if any of that is real?

Who is Rey, when she is by herself, in the dark? We don't know. We do know that she's going to remake the Jedi Order, but in what shape?

We knew, at this point in the trilogy, who her counterpart protagonists were. Luke was a young farmboy chasing the image of his father and trying to become that, and was utterly devastated by the revelation that the dream he was pursuing was an utter lie. In ROTJ, he grows past it and becomes his own man, a true Jedi.

Anakin was a slave brought into the order, who has anger issues, and is unable to let go in the Jedi style. He's also secretly romancing Padme, and living in seeming fear of losing what he has, either as a Jedi or his wife. By ROTS, war has made him harder, and his anger issues are easy for someone else to manipulate, and that combined with his fear of being found out, leads to his turn to the dark side, and eventual losing everything.

Rey isn't on either sort of journey. Do we even know why she's becoming a Jedi?
I agree that her emotional arc as a character is a bit wonky. I think part of it is that she ends up having the equivalent of Luke's final defiance of the Emperor in ROTJ at the same point in the story where Luke is facing Vader for the first time in ESB. So it's hard to say for sure where she can go from there.

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Re: EP 9 teaser trailer

Post by FaxModem1 » 2019-04-25 04:11pm

Civil War Man wrote:
2019-04-25 03:50pm
FaxModem1 wrote:
2019-04-25 03:17pm
My main issue is that Rey's growing power seems to come out of nowhere, storywise, aside from 'Rey needs to be this powerful now', at the expense of her character. Rey has a great setup, someone abandoned on salvage-world, but with great potential, force and otherwise.

TFA sets up her journey, but does so with her getting to skip a few steps. She is essentially a force-savant. Doesn't know how to mind battle? Kylo tries against her, and she does it right back. Then she mind tricks a guard, and then seems to download how to use lightsabers in time for the climactic battle. So Rey's journey force-wise is going to be slamming the 'easy button' any time she runs into an obstacle, okay. We're not going to go the spiritual route, and see how becoming this strong affects her, or what temptations she faces, or why she is like that.
While I agree that the writing for her has been sloppy at times, I don't have a problem at all with the lightsaber thing. She was established fairly early on at being at least a competent melee fighter, and without the Force fighting with a lightsaber is pretty much just regular sword fighting with a sword that is heavily balanced towards the hilt. It's like how learning kung fu is the least important part of Neo's growth. Plus, as has often been pointed out, she was going up against a wounded and emotionally compromised Kylo Ren, and was still losing for most of the fight until she had one of those Neo-like moments where one of her mental barriers temporarily comes down.
I guess the main problem is that Rey's instructions regarding any of this come from a bartender's guidance, and touching Luke/Anakin's old lightsaber. Is Maz a force user? Iunno. We've never met her before, and it doesn't seem like she's using any force abilities in the sequel trilogy. Maz just knows, because who knows why, and Rey just 'learns' it. Either Maz is supposed to be guiding her force wise later on, or Luke should have expected a lot more force guidance when he visited the cantina in Mos Eisley.
Then let's look at her as a protagonist. She is wanting to become a Jedi. Do we know why, aside from that she wants to find her family? We know that she cares about some people in the Resistance, and wants to help them fight the First Order to some level. She also has some connection to Ben/Kylo Ren, due to Snoke's manipulations, so who knows if any of that is real?

Who is Rey, when she is by herself, in the dark? We don't know. We do know that she's going to remake the Jedi Order, but in what shape?

We knew, at this point in the trilogy, who her counterpart protagonists were. Luke was a young farmboy chasing the image of his father and trying to become that, and was utterly devastated by the revelation that the dream he was pursuing was an utter lie. In ROTJ, he grows past it and becomes his own man, a true Jedi.

Anakin was a slave brought into the order, who has anger issues, and is unable to let go in the Jedi style. He's also secretly romancing Padme, and living in seeming fear of losing what he has, either as a Jedi or his wife. By ROTS, war has made him harder, and his anger issues are easy for someone else to manipulate, and that combined with his fear of being found out, leads to his turn to the dark side, and eventual losing everything.

Rey isn't on either sort of journey. Do we even know why she's becoming a Jedi?
I agree that her emotional arc as a character is a bit wonky. I think part of it is that she ends up having the equivalent of Luke's final defiance of the Emperor in ROTJ at the same point in the story where Luke is facing Vader for the first time in ESB. So it's hard to say for sure where she can go from there.
We also knew where Luke was as a character back in ESB. Rey's character growth is lessened so that we can focus on utterly destroying Luke as a character, and then his redemption.
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Re: EP 9 teaser trailer

Post by ray245 » 2019-04-25 04:54pm

I think one question I have is do we even need an Ep 9 for Rey's journey as a character? Because I can't think of any meaningful development left for her. JJ Abrams might get around this issue by reintroducing her parentage as an issue for her, but I don't think this is good writing.
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Re: EP 9 teaser trailer

Post by NeoGoomba » 2019-04-25 05:30pm

She's really got the only thing close to an arc to deal with.

Poe is fighting the FO, and that's all there is to him.

And Finn is just...Finn?
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Re: EP 9 teaser trailer

Post by Gandalf » 2019-04-25 05:31pm

FaxModem1 wrote:
2019-04-24 06:04pm
Gandalf wrote:
2019-04-24 01:59pm
Couldn't that just be explained as the Force guiding her actions (presumably towards an eventual fate to be determined)?
If they want to destroy the rules of the setting, sure. Before Rey, it's always seemed like one needed a certain level of mastery over the force, even when created by the force itself like Anakin, to do things like move rocks, mind trick people, see the future, etc to an extent that you weren't just an extraordinarily lucky pilot or gambler. Luke's key shot in ANH is, after all, focusing his timing to make a shot through the force, not immediately besting Vader in a battle of wills and showing that years of training are meaningless.

Same with how, even though Anakin can see things when tested by open Jedi masters who are broadcasting the image willingly, he can't interrogate Darth Maul against his will into giving them critical information. Or how he didn't mindtrick the Viceroy into shutting down the droids, he did do extraordinary feats of piloting to destroy the Trade Federation ship(and was severely lucky/will of the force).

Rey did that, on her first day, with no training whatsoever. Her lucking out and finding the right access junction or whatever to escape and reunite with her friends, will of the force. Her able to go against a supposed powerful and trained force user and both beat him at lightsabers and mind tricks seems unearned.
The intercession of God allowed both Luke and Anakin to go from people who drove speeders around, to people who pulled off amazing feats that apparently eluded proper pilots. This was after each had received short pep talks from Jedi covering Faith and Deeds 101.

Meanwhile, Rey had spent her life in a setting which required instinctive thinking, so she was presumably already primed for divine actions. Clearly God wills it.
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Re: EP 9 teaser trailer

Post by ray245 » 2019-04-25 06:06pm

Gandalf wrote:
2019-04-25 05:31pm
The intercession of God allowed both Luke and Anakin to go from people who drove speeders around, to people who pulled off amazing feats that apparently eluded proper pilots. This was after each had received short pep talks from Jedi covering Faith and Deeds 101.

Meanwhile, Rey had spent her life in a setting which required instinctive thinking, so she was presumably already primed for divine actions. Clearly God wills it.
Then why bother learning things like mediation if all you need to do to become a good force user is constant stress and anxiety?
Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.

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