Is Holdo a good leader?

PSW: discuss Star Wars without "versus" arguments.

Moderator: Vympel

User avatar
tezunegari
Jedi Knight
Posts: 651
Joined: 2008-11-13 12:44pm

Re: Is Holdo a good leader?

Post by tezunegari » 2019-04-02 12:43pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-04-02 11:38am
tezunegari wrote:
2019-04-02 11:01am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-04-02 10:46am
If I tend to favor interpretations that show Holdo in a more favorable light, its partly because there are a lot more advocates for the other side here, and I'm trying to even the scales, not because I think that Holdo is completely flawless and not alternative interpretations can be made.
So you are only playing devil's advocat / thenth man just because the majority considers Holdo a bad example of leadership by what is shown on screen?
Not because there is actually evidence that we overlooked or missed.

Your whole reasoning to support Holdo is "The majority on this board dislikes her, I must argue in her favor"?

Do I understand that correctly?
No, and that's a blatant misrepresentation of what I said.
[...]
I did not misrepresent your position.

I asked for clarification about my interpretation of your words.
"Bring your thousands, I have my axe."
"Bring your cannons, I have my armor."
"Bring your mighty... I am my own champion."
Cue Unit-01 ramming half the Lance of Longinus down Adam's head and a bemused Gendo, "Wrong end, son."
Ikari Gendo, NGE Fanfiction "Standing Tall"

User avatar
ray245
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7156
Joined: 2005-06-10 11:30pm

Re: Is Holdo a good leader?

Post by ray245 » 2019-04-02 12:49pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote:
2019-04-02 11:29am
Holdo's forces didn't break from the stress, they stayed the course. Poe and his clique were the ones who didn't. Yes, she should've used those forces to secure the Raddus - and we DO see them take precautions against deserters, that's how Finn got tased. I don't know if Rose was part of Holdo's team... and she ended up joining Finn's mission anyway. Jesus.

It could be a nice theme if the whole Poe being rash and reckless and getting people killed, Holdo having her hands full herding cats and orphans since everyone else dead, Hux and Kylo's sibling rivalry, Snoke's bullshit, was to illustrate how ad hoc and actually impractical and even comically disorganized revolutionary groups can be. Some rise because they're favored by patrons, others just because they're the only ones left and put up quite a fight even though being badass doesn't mean they're capable of higher responsibilities, and others are just ambitious snakes. Reminds me of the bullshit in the Philippine Revolution with the heroic mythologized figures who are actually just lost individuals winging it as everything burns around them.
Usually, you'd at least expect a formal hearing where people outside of the situation make the call. You know, a proper procedure that takes heat of the moment decesions out of the equation for the sake of stability and order.
And if there's no time for that (like say when fleeing from an enemy armada in damaged and depleted vessels), the demotions don't go through? Who knows what procedure is like in a resistance that has actual space royalty as Generals, etc.
Vader dealing with Tarkin on the Death Star. Mentions that the Senate had been dissolved setting the tone that those higher up in the Empire are now able to take what they want without recourse. Leia pretending to be a diplomat. When Vader chokes a mofo and promotes somebody else, literally over their dead body we've already established that it's just how he does business. Politics was key to the OT even if it didn't take center stage.
I see what you mean, though most of those examples were more of quick but well-done ways of setting up the context and even then the verbal sparring isn't really a clue of "realistic protocols." For this specific subject, though, the only remotely relevant example is the one with Vader murdering his subordinate and... that's worse lol.
There's an option Holdo can do if she feels she cannot be responsible for leading the resistance members. Step down from command. That's a thing. If you chose not to step down the responsibility, then it is your responsibility not to screw things up further.
Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.

User avatar
Gunhead
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1674
Joined: 2004-11-15 08:08am

Re: Is Holdo a good leader?

Post by Gunhead » 2019-04-02 02:32pm

ray245 wrote:
2019-04-02 12:49pm
There's an option Holdo can do if she feels she cannot be responsible for leading the resistance members. Step down from command. That's a thing. If you chose not to step down the responsibility, then it is your responsibility not to screw things up further.
This really is part of the dissonance between what we are told about Holdo and what she does in the movie. I can't think of a single moment where she actually leads anyone or anything yet Poe talks her up being a commanding officer with combat experience and seems at least partially impressed by her record.So it's more than likely her peers and close subordinates agreed that she should be in charge as the most experienced and ranking. But this isn't followed up at all. She berates Poe for using up the whole bomber wing but she never presents anything that would suggest that saving the bombers was paramount or that there would have been a chance later on to use those bombers to greater or equal effect. Yea sure, there's no need to tell Poe, but if she would have lamented losing the bombers later on so the audience can see it, her berating Poe would have made more sense.

I fully think what Poe did was correct in what could be called, and I'm paraphrasing, the cruel arithmetic of war. He traded few garbage scowl.. "bombers" and few fighters for an enemy capital ship and ensured their capital ship could escape. Yea true, Leia did order him not to, but she was plain wrong. Leia might be a great leader of people and even pretty good as fighter herself but I don't think she's much of a combat commander. Poe expended resources when he thought he could get the best bang for the buck, this is what good combat leaders do. Yes people died because of that decision and it could have gone horribly wrong but that's the cost of war and apparently Poe was the only one who could live with that.

Ok fine. Lets assume what Poe did was a huuge fuck up. It's done, can't undo it. You take it and try to get mileage out of it. Now this is something Leia and Holdo should both know. Morale is priceless in the situation they're in so you make the best out of grand displays of courage and sacrifice. Might point out that Holdo did not. Hey you can even leave Poe out of the limelight and praise the courage of those bomber crews who got their asses shot to pieces saving many times their numbers that is if you personally hate Poe for some reason. But you cannot undo it so if I was in Holdo's place, I would totally and without shame lie that the whole attack was "Just as planned" just to inspire people and make them believe we in fact have a plan.

A lot of this can be attributed to really, really shitty writing but overall I can say the TL/DR version is.

No, and I would not follow that woman into combat under any circumstances.


-Gunhead
"In the absence of orders, go find something and kill it."
-Generalfeldmarschall Erwin Rommel

"And if you don't wanna feel like a putz
Collect the clues and connect the dots
You'll see the pattern that is bursting your bubble, and it's Bad" -The Hives

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 19373
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Is Holdo a good leader?

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-04-02 02:49pm

Gunhead wrote:
2019-04-02 02:32pm
ray245 wrote:
2019-04-02 12:49pm
There's an option Holdo can do if she feels she cannot be responsible for leading the resistance members. Step down from command. That's a thing. If you chose not to step down the responsibility, then it is your responsibility not to screw things up further.
This really is part of the dissonance between what we are told about Holdo and what she does in the movie. I can't think of a single moment where she actually leads anyone or anything yet Poe talks her up being a commanding officer with combat experience and seems at least partially impressed by her record.So it's more than likely her peers and close subordinates agreed that she should be in charge as the most experienced and ranking.
Or she assumed command because she was next in the chain of command.

And while the film's misdirection and subsequent reveal necessarily appear at odds with each other, we can't just dismiss out of hand that Holdo was apparently considered fit to command a warship by Leia, and apparently had a notable combat record.

As to on-screen leadership, its hard to judge because we never see much of her interacting with anyone but Poe and Leia. She gives a speech, carries out Leia's evac plan with the likely addition of the stealth transports, and pilots the Raadus on its final suicide run. That's about it.
But this isn't followed up at all. She berates Poe for using up the whole bomber wing but she never presents anything that would suggest that saving the bombers was paramount or that there would have been a chance later on to use those bombers to greater or equal effect. Yea sure, there's no need to tell Poe, but if she would have lamented losing the bombers later on so the audience can see it, her berating Poe would have made more sense.
Not only is there no need to tell Poe, but there is no need to have a specific plan in mind for the bombers at that moment to know that preserving them for future use if possible is a worthy goal.

More damning in my opinion, though, was the fighters Poe lost during that action, as they are needed to provide the bigger ships with anti-fighter cover.
I fully think what Poe did was correct in what could be called, and I'm paraphrasing, the cruel arithmetic of war. He traded few garbage scowl.. "bombers" and few fighters for an enemy capital ship and ensured their capital ship could escape. Yea true, Leia did order him not to, but she was plain wrong. Leia might be a great leader of people and even pretty good as fighter herself but I don't think she's much of a combat commander. Poe expended resources when he thought he could get the best bang for the buck, this is what good combat leaders do. Yes people died because of that decision and it could have gone horribly wrong but that's the cost of war and apparently Poe was the only one who could live with that.
Sign...

We've been over this. Again and again and again.

If you look only at the small scale, the short-term, Poe's actions make sense. A bomber squadron and half a fighter squadron for a dreadnought? That's a fair trade. But in the bigger strategic picture, it makes no sense at all, because they have no other fighters, and the FO has more dreadnoughts, more capital ships, more resources to throw at them. Taking on the enemy's most powerful capital ships in a head to head conventional battle is not how an insurgency is supposed to fight, and Leia knows this, or she damn well should given how much of her life she's spent in insurgencies.

Poe's actions were tactically brilliant, and might even have been justifiable against orders in a conventional war between peer powers. But they were strategically idiotic for an insurgency.
Ok fine. Lets assume what Poe did was a huuge fuck up. It's done, can't undo it. You take it and try to get mileage out of it. Now this is something Leia and Holdo should both know. Morale is priceless in the situation they're in so you make the best out of grand displays of courage and sacrifice. Might point out that Holdo did not. Hey you can even leave Poe out of the limelight and praise the courage of those bomber crews who got their asses shot to pieces saving many times their numbers that is if you personally hate Poe for some reason. But you cannot undo it so if I was in Holdo's place, I would totally and without shame lie that the whole attack was "Just as planned" just to inspire people and make them believe we in fact have a plan.
Morale is important, and this is a unique and fairly interesting take on the debate. However, discipline is also important, and not encouraging officers to go off half-cocked and wipe out your dwindling forces needlessly. Do you want to set the precedent of rewarding costly acts of insubordinate bravado?
A lot of this can be attributed to really, really shitty writing but overall I can say the TL/DR version is.

No, and I would not follow that woman into combat under any circumstances.


-Gunhead
I'm curious as to how you address the strategic failures of Poe's actions, and the need to maintain discipline in a force where it is already clearly eroding.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"Trump admirers like @TuckerCarlson describe themselves as "nationalist." But their nationalism attaches not to the multiracial American nation... but to a multinational white race with a capital in Moscow"-David Frum

User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 15259
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Australia

Re: Is Holdo a good leader?

Post by Gandalf » 2019-04-02 04:11pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-04-02 01:34am
Gandalf wrote:
2019-04-01 09:29pm
Knife wrote:
2019-03-31 12:10pm
So ponderous slow bombers are almost on site and it's a good plan to pull them back? And even still, that choice is on the bomber commander. If anything, Leia was being a bad commander at that point. Let alone the whole plan was shit, which would be Leia again.

Of course, it's just boils down to shitty writing.
The thing about Leia got me thinking, do the Rebellion or Resistance have any good commanders at all? They have people who are skilled at their varied tasks, from space wizards to pilots, but does anyone run it well?
Mon Mothma, under the old Rebellion. Well enough to form a disparate alliance into an effective fighting force that took the fight to the most powerful military machine in galactic history and lived to tell the tale. Bail Organa always seemed to have his shit together too.

Leia's leadership in the ST doesn't seem awful overall, either. Maybe a bit too risk-averse, understandably so given the losses she's suffered. She strikes me as a once very good leader who's finally getting burned out by it all.
Is that an EU thing? Because all I can recall seeing her do on film is fall for the Emperor's trap in Jedi. Did she get on screen named in Rogue One?
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin

User avatar
Gunhead
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1674
Joined: 2004-11-15 08:08am

Re: Is Holdo a good leader?

Post by Gunhead » 2019-04-02 04:23pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-04-02 02:49pm

Or she assumed command because she was next in the chain of command.
This is more or less what I said but as a minor add on point, you need the have people supporting you when you are elevated into a senior position. This is true in any military force where there's an outside command structure to place you into a certain position too, but it's even more important where there's isn't like in a resistance group.
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-04-02 02:49pm
And while the film's misdirection and subsequent reveal necessarily appear at odds with each other, we can't just dismiss out of hand that Holdo was apparently considered fit to command a warship by Leia, and apparently had a notable combat record.

As to on-screen leadership, its hard to judge because we never see much of her interacting with anyone but Poe and Leia. She gives a speech, carries out Leia's evac plan with the likely addition of the stealth transports, and pilots the Raadus on its final suicide run. That's about it.
I was pretty much alluding to similar. Claiming that Holdo was somehow reluctant or unfit for duty feels far fetched, though I suppose you could argue to this effect, I find it implausible.
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-04-02 02:49pm

Not only is there no need to tell Poe, but there is no need to have a specific plan in mind for the bombers at that moment to know that preserving them for future use if possible is a worthy goal.

More damning in my opinion, though, was the fighters Poe lost during that action, as they are needed to provide the bigger ships with anti-fighter cover.
That's why I said it would have been better, if not strictly required. As to the lost fighters.. ehhh.. I don't think having .. what was it .. eight? I'm going with eight over like four is going to make a huge strategic or tactical impact. In fact I'm not even sure they committed all their fighters to attack the dreadnought.
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-04-02 02:49pm

Sign...

We've been over this. Again and again and again.

If you look only at the small scale, the short-term, Poe's actions make sense. A bomber squadron and half a fighter squadron for a dreadnought? That's a fair trade. But in the bigger strategic picture, it makes no sense at all, because they have no other fighters, and the FO has more dreadnoughts, more capital ships, more resources to throw at them. Taking on the enemy's most powerful capital ships in a head to head conventional battle is not how an insurgency is supposed to fight, and Leia knows this, or she damn well should given how much of her life she's spent in insurgencies.

Poe's actions were tactically brilliant, and might even have been justifiable against orders in a conventional war between peer powers. But they were strategically idiotic for an insurgency.
As above I just disagree, if the whole detachment had been wiped out but they had prevented the dreadnought from firing I still think it would have been a good trade. Yes in the overall picture it probably didn't contribute a lot into the cause but in the same token they did 100% prevent the dreadnought from firing on their cap ships, so in that light I think it was a good call rather than just relying on FO missing or having the ship make it's jump before the cannon could fire. Both could have happened but even though FO are bumbling idiots, I wouldn't like to rely on it.
In fact, for 100% doubleplusgood, Poe should have disabled the dreadnought, not destroy it. FO might have just abandoned it but I think they would have been pressed to try and save her which would have created more distraction. Once it blew up well.. done and dusted.
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-04-02 02:49pm
Morale is important, and this is a unique and fairly interesting take on the debate. However, discipline is also important, and not encouraging officers to go off half-cocked and wipe out your dwindling forces needlessly. Do you want to set the precedent of rewarding costly acts of insubordinate bravado?

I'm curious as to how you address the strategic failures of Poe's actions, and the need to maintain discipline in a force where it is already clearly eroding.
That's why I said Holdo should have played it like it was planned once she was given overall command, then berate any and all who try to pull shit like that but in private. Good war effort needs people who are willing to put in the chips and roll the dice, you just have to hedge the bets best you can.
Poe is brave and to an extent good at what he does. So you commend the outcome but berate the breach in chain of command. You also do your damnest to keep up appearances about yourself and the fact that you do have a plan. Yea I know people threw a hissyfit over the dress and while I think it was a stupid idea it's really not the reason why I don't think Holdo was somehow unfit to command, it just bundles up to the really poor characterization of Holdo in general. That said, specially in a crisis situation, appearances count. This is in fact taught in militaries and why people who have rank are expected to wear their gear in the appropriate manner. Colloquialism going more or less "Dress the part, be the part and if you can't be ... for fucks sake at least dress the part". Part of being in command is to be aware of these things and how they can add up and I think the movie did a piss poor effort in portraying this in Holdo which is why I don't think she was a good leader when by rights she should have been at least.. passable.

-Gunhead
"In the absence of orders, go find something and kill it."
-Generalfeldmarschall Erwin Rommel

"And if you don't wanna feel like a putz
Collect the clues and connect the dots
You'll see the pattern that is bursting your bubble, and it's Bad" -The Hives

User avatar
FaxModem1
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7501
Joined: 2002-10-30 06:40pm
Location: In a dark reflection of a better world

Re: Is Holdo a good leader?

Post by FaxModem1 » 2019-04-02 04:27pm

Gandalf wrote:
2019-04-02 04:11pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-04-02 01:34am
Gandalf wrote:
2019-04-01 09:29pm


The thing about Leia got me thinking, do the Rebellion or Resistance have any good commanders at all? They have people who are skilled at their varied tasks, from space wizards to pilots, but does anyone run it well?
Mon Mothma, under the old Rebellion. Well enough to form a disparate alliance into an effective fighting force that took the fight to the most powerful military machine in galactic history and lived to tell the tale. Bail Organa always seemed to have his shit together too.

Leia's leadership in the ST doesn't seem awful overall, either. Maybe a bit too risk-averse, understandably so given the losses she's suffered. She strikes me as a once very good leader who's finally getting burned out by it all.
Is that an EU thing? Because all I can recall seeing her do on film is fall for the Emperor's trap in Jedi. Did she get on screen named in Rogue One?
In Rebels, Mon Mothma is able to rally a bunch of ships together and form the Rebel Alliance. As a figurehead, she is able to unite a bunch of different groups under one banner.

Image

User avatar
FaxModem1
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7501
Joined: 2002-10-30 06:40pm
Location: In a dark reflection of a better world

Re: Is Holdo a good leader?

Post by FaxModem1 » 2019-04-02 08:16pm

Thing to note here, we do have a scene of Holdo as a leader where Poe isn't involved, aside from him seeing the aftermath and being devastated at watching the ship destroyed:



Interesting things to note regarding the Resistance side:

1. The Captain died on-board the ship after his crew was evacuated.

2. He considers it an honor to serve the Resistance/Holdo.

3. He believes in God, or prefers with the phrase, "Godspeed" as opposed to the much more used "May the Force be with you." I guess Star Wars has monotheism in some form.

4. Holdo's response to everyone on the bridge is "Steady on."

5. Connix is on-board the bridge when this happens, and briefs Holdo about the 6 hours of fuel left, not time until destination.

6. Poe is devastated by the destruction of the Medical Transport/the death of the Medical Frigate captain, clearly not knowing that this is all according to Holdo's plan.

This means crewmembers of the bridge weren't seemingly aware of the larger picture, and potentially, the captains and crews of the other vessels weren't as well.

Due to Holdo's intelligence background, her priority could be Opsec. However, as we see with the crew reactions, the Raddus is getting demoralized by what's happening. Holdo makes no comments, orders, speeches, or notes to them(that we see) about their progress, intended destination, or amount needed to fuel the transports versus the amount needed for the Raddus to keep going, unless that is what Connix meant.

Holdo may have nerves of steel, but the rest of the crew seems to be clearly buckling due to this amount of strain, death and destruction.
Image

User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 15259
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Australia

Re: Is Holdo a good leader?

Post by Gandalf » 2019-04-02 09:13pm

Gunhead wrote:
2019-04-02 02:32pm
I fully think what Poe did was correct in what could be called, and I'm paraphrasing, the cruel arithmetic of war. He traded few garbage scowl.. "bombers" and few fighters for an enemy capital ship and ensured their capital ship could escape. Yea true, Leia did order him not to, but she was plain wrong. Leia might be a great leader of people and even pretty good as fighter herself but I don't think she's much of a combat commander. Poe expended resources when he thought he could get the best bang for the buck, this is what good combat leaders do. Yes people died because of that decision and it could have gone horribly wrong but that's the cost of war and apparently Poe was the only one who could live with that.
Let's play this "cruel arithmetic of war" thing out. The Resistance lost their entire bomber force. The First Order lost a dreadnought. Losing the dreadnought didn't seem to slow the First Order down a whole lot, especially considering that they've got enough force to assume control of a lot of the galaxy, and enough to chase down the Resistance fleet. Conversely, the Resistance aren't able to do anything that might require a proper bombing run in the future. That certainly makes life easier for the First Order.

I don't think your arithmetic works out at all.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin

User avatar
Batman
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15518
Joined: 2002-07-09 04:51am
Location: 'Very' mildly hopeful now DC recognized taking Clark's red trunks away was a bad idea
Contact:

Re: Is Holdo a good leader?

Post by Batman » 2019-04-02 09:50pm

This arithmetric only works if your forces are roughly equally matched. Which is clearly not the case.
If Poe had obeyed the abort 'all' the rebel ships could've gotten out thanks to all of them having hyperdrive, to be used later with much better chances.
Yes, taking out a fleetkiller at the price of a handful of bombers and fighters is nice...if you actually have a fleet. The Resistance, alas, doesn't seem to at this point.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

User avatar
Rogue 9
Scrapping TIEs since 1997
Posts: 17940
Joined: 2003-11-12 01:10pm
Location: Classified
Contact:

Re: Is Holdo a good leader?

Post by Rogue 9 » 2019-04-02 10:23pm

Batman wrote:
2019-04-02 09:50pm
This arithmetric only works if your forces are roughly equally matched. Which is clearly not the case.
If Poe had obeyed the abort 'all' the rebel ships could've gotten out thanks to all of them having hyperdrive, to be used later with much better chances.
Yes, taking out a fleetkiller at the price of a handful of bombers and fighters is nice...if you actually have a fleet. The Resistance, alas, doesn't seem to at this point.
If he had done that, the Fulminatrix would have pursued their flotilla along with the rest of the First Order task force, and promptly destroyed them all at the outset of the chase. Of course they only know this in hindsight, but Poe's actions at D'qar (as opposed to his later mutiny) kept them alive in the immediate term.
It's Rogue, not Rouge!

HAB | KotL | VRWC/ELC/CDA | TRotR | The Anti-Confederate | Sluggite | Gamer | Blogger | Staff Reporter | Student | Musician

User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 15259
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Australia

Re: Is Holdo a good leader?

Post by Gandalf » 2019-04-02 11:47pm

What was that ship going to do that the rest of the First Order fleet couldn't?
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin

User avatar
Jub
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3602
Joined: 2012-08-06 07:58pm
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: Is Holdo a good leader?

Post by Jub » 2019-04-03 12:14am

Gandalf wrote:
2019-04-02 09:13pm
Let's play this "cruel arithmetic of war" thing out. The Resistance lost their entire bomber force. The First Order lost a dreadnought. Losing the dreadnought didn't seem to slow the First Order down a whole lot, especially considering that they've got enough force to assume control of a lot of the galaxy, and enough to chase down the Resistance fleet. Conversely, the Resistance aren't able to do anything that might require a proper bombing run in the future. That certainly makes life easier for the First Order.

I don't think your arithmetic works out at all.
1) It's a PR and recruiting moment is it easier to recruit when you've actually done something or when you haven't? I know there's Star Killer Base but that one would be a hard story to swallow for most compared to having killed two dreadnoughts in the span of a day.

2) Do we actually know how large the First Order's forces are? They could, much like the Nazis in WWII, actually be pretty weak and just exploiting their enemy's lack of readiness. They may not be able to afford any more battles where they lose large capital ships even if they are currently winning the war.

3) Perhaps the NR lacks the firepower to fight back against a fleet backed by a dreadnought but could engage smaller forces and turn the tide that way.

With how slim the world building is and the Resistance only having 3 capital ships, a wing of bombers, and a handful of fighters it's possible that everything else has been written to scale and the FO only has a few major fleets.

User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 15259
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Australia

Re: Is Holdo a good leader?

Post by Gandalf » 2019-04-03 12:58am

Jub wrote:
2019-04-03 12:14am
1) It's a PR and recruiting moment is it easier to recruit when you've actually done something or when you haven't? I know there's Star Killer Base but that one would be a hard story to swallow for most compared to having killed two dreadnoughts in the span of a day.
Why would it be hard to swallow? Big space stations have been destroyed before.
2) Do we actually know how large the First Order's forces are? They could, much like the Nazis in WWII, actually be pretty weak and just exploiting their enemy's lack of readiness. They may not be able to afford any more battles where they lose large capital ships even if they are currently winning the war.
The opening crawl mentions the First Order seizing military control of the galaxy, so it's probably quite sizeable.
3) Perhaps the NR lacks the firepower to fight back against a fleet backed by a dreadnought but could engage smaller forces and turn the tide that way.

With how slim the world building is and the Resistance only having 3 capital ships, a wing of bombers, and a handful of fighters it's possible that everything else has been written to scale and the FO only has a few major fleets.
Or they're just woefully underequipped compared to Space ISIL, who are apparently taking control of the galaxy.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin

User avatar
Jub
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3602
Joined: 2012-08-06 07:58pm
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: Is Holdo a good leader?

Post by Jub » 2019-04-03 01:13am

Gandalf wrote:
2019-04-03 12:58am
Why would it be hard to swallow? Big space stations have been destroyed before.
Star Killer was a planet. That's a slight difference.
The opening crawl mentions the First Order seizing military control of the galaxy, so it's probably quite sizeable.
The opening crawl would have had Germany seizing control of Europe. I'm sure they could have easily stomached losses of say a full division of Panzer 3's and another of Panzer 4's while they were still in the low countries. That wouldn't have been an issue for them at all...

Or if in '40 they'd already lost Bismarck and Scharnhorst, it would have been peachy because they were winning and losses don't matter when you're winning...

My take is that the First Order has a few very good modern fleets and not a lot else. They're blitzing through a New Republic navy that wasn't ready to eat a punch of the face but the losses they've sustained hurt and aren't easily replacable. Much like what Nazi Germany faced in WWII once their momentum stalls and losses pile up they'll never have the equipment or manpower to really do anything but fight a series of holding actions and retreats until the end of the war.

The writers could fuck me on this one because they sure as hell don't seem to care about scale or scope in the ST but that's how I'd write Episode IX.
Or they're just woefully underequipped compared to Space ISIL, who are apparently taking control of the galaxy.
Prove that your interpretation is any more valid than mine.

User avatar
Civil War Man
NERRRRRDS!!!
Posts: 3751
Joined: 2005-01-28 03:54am

Re: Is Holdo a good leader?

Post by Civil War Man » 2019-04-03 08:26am

Gandalf wrote:
2019-04-02 11:47pm
What was that ship going to do that the rest of the First Order fleet couldn't?
Presumably shoot them with the giant fuck-off cannon it had, depending on its effective range. Unless you assume that Poe was lying or talking out of his ass when he called it a fleet killer, and the Resistance planned and executed a bombing attack on a ship that wasn't that much of a threat to them, it's reasonable to assume, lacking evidence to the contrary, that the main cannon on the dreadnought could have breached the shields of at least the escort ships, and possibly the Raddus itself.

As for the argument that if Poe broke off the attack they could have used the bombers during the chase, I have to wonder where that would have happened. These bombers had the element of surprise (because Hux is a dumbass) and the benefit of Poe taking out the dreadnought's point defense cannons, and they still got completely wiped out after barely managing to destroy their target. If they were not lost taking out that dreadnought, it seems to me they would have just been wiped out later, and probably would have failed to destroy anything while doing it because they would have lacked the advantages they had in the actual bombing run.

So regarding the arithmetic of war, I think the only thing that might have made the sacrifice of the bombers not worth it was the loss of the bomber crews. The lost people was a much bigger blow than the lost materiel. Though that, of course, brings back the question of how the chase would have gone if the dreadnought had not been destroyed.

TL;DR: If the Resistance had made a clean getaway, Poe would have made the wrong call by sacrificing a resource the Resistance couldn't afford to lose (specifically people). Based on what actually happened, that wrong call was potentially a major reason why anyone survived at all.

User avatar
Vendetta
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10687
Joined: 2002-07-07 04:57pm
Location: Sheffield, UK

Re: Is Holdo a good leader?

Post by Vendetta » 2019-04-03 09:34am

Civil War Man wrote:
2019-04-03 08:26am
As for the argument that if Poe broke off the attack they could have used the bombers during the chase, I have to wonder where that would have happened.
If Poe broke off the attack there may not have been a chase.

The hyperspace tracker that was used to trace the Resistance fleet was on the Supremacy. Even though other ships had one, only one could be active at a time in order to function correctly without interference, and it has to be active at the point of departure in order to work (because even a temporary interruption would be enough to allow the fleet to flee, if we assume the technical details of the Poe/Finn/Rose fuckup are correct).

The Resistance fleet leaves immediately after the Supremacy arrives, so the Supremacy almost certainly had its tracker active before it arrived instead of activating it after seeing the Fulminatrix destroyed. Indicating they were not expecting to jump into a battlespace containing an already active tracker. (Hux being overconfident enough to not bother with a hyperspace tracker because he expects to wipe out the Resistance fleet is consistent with the rest of his portrayal, he was, after all, put in his position because he's doctrinally pure and easily controlled and so not able to become ambitious enough to unseat Snoke, Snoke even as good as tells him so in person).

So if the Resistance had left before the Supremacy had arrived without being delayed by a slow attack run on the Fulminatrix, it is likely they would not have been tracked.

Patroklos
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2467
Joined: 2009-04-14 11:00am

Re: Is Holdo a good leader?

Post by Patroklos » 2019-04-03 10:06am

It’s been awhile since I watched the POS but doesn’t Supremacy first show up in Crait?

Also there is no indication that the resistance knew a dreadnaught was going to show up. Their plan makes zero sense attacking a squadron of Resurgents, as Poe’s trick would probably only work on one of them. Certainly not all of them.

User avatar
Vendetta
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10687
Joined: 2002-07-07 04:57pm
Location: Sheffield, UK

Re: Is Holdo a good leader?

Post by Vendetta » 2019-04-03 10:15am

Patroklos wrote:
2019-04-03 10:06am
It’s been awhile since I watched the POS but doesn’t Supremacy first show up in Crait?
No. The Fulminatrix is destroyed then the Supremacy and its fleet almost immediately show up, then the Resistance fleet escapes.
Also there is no indication that the resistance knew a dreadnaught was going to show up. Their plan makes zero sense attacking a squadron of Resurgents, as Poe’s trick would probably only work on one of them. Certainly not all of them.
Which trick? Turning off the tracker? The plan was to turn it off then have the fleet escape before another ship could notice and turn theirs on. That's why he decided to seize the bridge because he was too distrustful to take his plan to Holdo. (Remember that all the scenes on the Raddus are intended to put us into Poe's perspective, including how Holdo is presented. They are meant to make you see her the way he does in order to prevent you from noticing how wrong he is until he realises it.)

Distracting Hux? That doesn't matter how many ships there are, the only target there was behind Hux's eyes.

User avatar
Civil War Man
NERRRRRDS!!!
Posts: 3751
Joined: 2005-01-28 03:54am

Re: Is Holdo a good leader?

Post by Civil War Man » 2019-04-03 11:14am

Is there a clip that has the Supremacy at D'Qar before the Resistance fleet jumps out? Because I honestly do not remember seeing it then, though my brain might have just glossed over it both times I watched it.

Also, it's a big jump to assume that the tracker was only active on the Supremacy from the beginning of the movie, considering that Snoke, who was on the Supremacy, didn't know they could do that, but Hux, who was commanding a different ship at D'Qar, did. Unless we want to add even more to the Idiot Plot accusations, what likely was the case was Hux's ship, being the flagship in the D'Qar attack, did the initial tracking, and Snoke had the Supremacy take over the tracking once he learned about it because he's a control freak.

User avatar
tezunegari
Jedi Knight
Posts: 651
Joined: 2008-11-13 12:44pm

Re: Is Holdo a good leader?

Post by tezunegari » 2019-04-03 11:31am

Civil War Man wrote:
2019-04-03 11:14am
Is there a clip that has the Supremacy at D'Qar before the Resistance fleet jumps out? Because I honestly do not remember seeing it then, though my brain might have just glossed over it both times I watched it.
It's in the novelization, I think.
"Bring your thousands, I have my axe."
"Bring your cannons, I have my armor."
"Bring your mighty... I am my own champion."
Cue Unit-01 ramming half the Lance of Longinus down Adam's head and a bemused Gendo, "Wrong end, son."
Ikari Gendo, NGE Fanfiction "Standing Tall"

User avatar
Civil War Man
NERRRRRDS!!!
Posts: 3751
Joined: 2005-01-28 03:54am

Re: Is Holdo a good leader?

Post by Civil War Man » 2019-04-03 11:50am

tezunegari wrote:
2019-04-03 11:31am
Civil War Man wrote:
2019-04-03 11:14am
Is there a clip that has the Supremacy at D'Qar before the Resistance fleet jumps out? Because I honestly do not remember seeing it then, though my brain might have just glossed over it both times I watched it.
It's in the novelization, I think.
I actually hope I just missed it and not that being a novelization plot point, because it was dumb when you don't even learn the name of the Republic capital that gets destroyed unless you consult supplemental material, and it's just as dumb when you put "oh yeah, this massive ship was at that battle, we just didn't show it to you" in the same camp. It feels like only a few steps removed from directly porting microtransactions and story DLC from gaming to movies. "Sorry, you should have bought the Digital Deluxe Platinum Edition ticket if you wanted the complete story experience."

User avatar
tezunegari
Jedi Knight
Posts: 651
Joined: 2008-11-13 12:44pm

Re: Is Holdo a good leader?

Post by tezunegari » 2019-04-03 12:10pm

Civil War Man wrote:
2019-04-03 11:50am
tezunegari wrote:
2019-04-03 11:31am
Civil War Man wrote:
2019-04-03 11:14am
Is there a clip that has the Supremacy at D'Qar before the Resistance fleet jumps out? Because I honestly do not remember seeing it then, though my brain might have just glossed over it both times I watched it.
It's in the novelization, I think.
I actually hope I just missed it and not that being a novelization plot point, because it was dumb when you don't even learn the name of the Republic capital that gets destroyed unless you consult supplemental material, and it's just as dumb when you put "oh yeah, this massive ship was at that battle, we just didn't show it to you" in the same camp. It feels like only a few steps removed from directly porting microtransactions and story DLC from gaming to movies. "Sorry, you should have bought the Digital Deluxe Platinum Edition ticket if you wanted the complete story experience."
"How did Rey know how to pull of the Mindtrick or know how to use the bloody lightsaber at the end?"
Find out in the novelization!
"Bring your thousands, I have my axe."
"Bring your cannons, I have my armor."
"Bring your mighty... I am my own champion."
Cue Unit-01 ramming half the Lance of Longinus down Adam's head and a bemused Gendo, "Wrong end, son."
Ikari Gendo, NGE Fanfiction "Standing Tall"

Patroklos
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2467
Joined: 2009-04-14 11:00am

Re: Is Holdo a good leader?

Post by Patroklos » 2019-04-03 01:15pm

Vendetta wrote:
2019-04-03 10:15am
Patroklos wrote:
2019-04-03 10:06am
It’s been awhile since I watched the POS but doesn’t Supremacy first show up in Crait?
No. The Fulminatrix is destroyed then the Supremacy and its fleet almost immediately show up, then the Resistance fleet escapes.
Also there is no indication that the resistance knew a dreadnaught was going to show up. Their plan makes zero sense attacking a squadron of Resurgents, as Poe’s trick would probably only work on one of them. Certainly not all of them.
Which trick? Turning off the tracker? The plan was to turn it off then have the fleet escape before another ship could notice and turn theirs on. That's why he decided to seize the bridge because he was too distrustful to take his plan to Holdo. (Remember that all the scenes on the Raddus are intended to put us into Poe's perspective, including how Holdo is presented. They are meant to make you see her the way he does in order to prevent you from noticing how wrong he is until he realises it.)

Distracting Hux? That doesn't matter how many ships there are, the only target there was behind Hux's eyes.
I am talking about D’Qar. If the dreadnaught doesn’t show up and the dozen odd Resurgents who showed up first just start tearing ship up from the get go Poe and company are left sitting there with their dicks in their hands.

The fact that he Resurgents aren’t doing that alongside the Dreadaught is just shitty writing, and that also would have left Leia’s plan useless.

The only way Poe/Leia’s Original delay plan works is if only the dreadnaught shows up, it doesn’t have escorts, it doesn’t have shields, it doesn’t launch fighters, and it inexplicably targets the base instead of Raddus. Granted it does have escorts, but since they are apparently just part of the background sky box for all the escorting they did they are effectively nonexistent. There are so many lazy nonsensical contrivances in just the scene’s setup anyone defending it should be embarrassed.

User avatar
Vendetta
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10687
Joined: 2002-07-07 04:57pm
Location: Sheffield, UK

Re: Is Holdo a good leader?

Post by Vendetta » 2019-04-03 02:48pm

Patroklos wrote:
2019-04-03 01:15pm
I am talking about D’Qar. If the dreadnaught doesn’t show up and the dozen odd Resurgents who showed up first just start tearing ship up from the get go Poe and company are left sitting there with their dicks in their hands.
We start the move in media res with the Fulminatrix already present, so if it hadn't been presumably the Resistance would have been doing something different as well.
The fact that he Resurgents aren’t doing that alongside the Dreadaught is just shitty writing, and that also would have left Leia’s plan useless.
People making non-optimal decisions is not shitty writing. It's totally consistent with Hux' character to have the escorting ships just sit and watch whilst he fires his Really Big Gun to make a point.

He's not making clever decisions because the film takes pains to point out he isn't actually clever. He didn't get to be in charge by being good at it, but by being a willing tool for Snoke. We see in TFA that he's a doctrinal fanatic, but he's also clearly too young to have any kind of proven operational record to make him the overall military commander of the First Order. Doctrinal fanaticism coupled with being easy to manipulate is what got him command. (In the scene where Snoke boasts to him about how easily he is pulling Kylo Ren's strings he is also talking about Hux.)

Which is what Strong Man autocrat leaders persistently do, surround themselves with yes-men who get their positions by being yes-men not by being suited to their positions, who are themselves not sufficiently capable or ambitious to overthrow the boss.
The only way Poe/Leia’s Original delay plan works is if only the dreadnaught shows up, it doesn’t have escorts, it doesn’t have shields, it doesn’t launch fighters, and it inexplicably targets the base instead of Raddus. Granted it does have escorts, but since they are apparently just part of the background sky box for all the escorting they did they are effectively nonexistent. There are so many lazy nonsensical contrivances in just the scene’s setup anyone defending it should be embarrassed.
The main way their plan works is that the First Order commander is Hux. Who is easy to distract and manipulate.

Post Reply