The prequel hatedom needs to go die in a fire

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ray245
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Re: The prequel hatedom needs to go die in a fire

Post by ray245 » 2019-06-23 04:15pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-06-23 05:32am
On that note, I wish more people could just say "I don't personally like this film, because it wasn't the movie I wanted", rather than insisting that the film is objectively bad in every possible way, an attack on the franchise and fans, and that everyone else has to agree or they're not a real fan.

Its okay for different people to have different tastes in cinema.
People have been taught to think so in that way, especially if you are an impressionable teenager. Fandoms tends to have strong culture of people trying to "fit in" and that encourages a level of tribalism in establishing what is "right" and what is "wrong".
Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.

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Re: The prequel hatedom needs to go die in a fire

Post by Gandalf » 2019-06-23 08:08pm

ray245 wrote:
2019-06-23 04:15pm
People have been taught to think so in that way, especially if you are an impressionable teenager. Fandoms tends to have strong culture of people trying to "fit in" and that encourages a level of tribalism in establishing what is "right" and what is "wrong".
Indeed. The internet has a degree of agency in this, because of the ease of forming online communities. If a community forms around a certain idea, then adherence to that idea determines legitimacy in the group. On a sci fi group like SDN, that might take the form of newer users seeking to be the most internet angry over the Prequels. Orthodoxy forms, and people usually either get on board or disengage. I'll admit I've been a part of this in my younger days.

On political groups, it can take far uglier forms as we've seen over the past few years.
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Re: The prequel hatedom needs to go die in a fire

Post by ray245 » 2019-06-28 07:57am

Gandalf wrote:
2019-06-23 08:08pm
ray245 wrote:
2019-06-23 04:15pm
People have been taught to think so in that way, especially if you are an impressionable teenager. Fandoms tends to have strong culture of people trying to "fit in" and that encourages a level of tribalism in establishing what is "right" and what is "wrong".
Indeed. The internet has a degree of agency in this, because of the ease of forming online communities. If a community forms around a certain idea, then adherence to that idea determines legitimacy in the group. On a sci fi group like SDN, that might take the form of newer users seeking to be the most internet angry over the Prequels. Orthodoxy forms, and people usually either get on board or disengage. I'll admit I've been a part of this in my younger days.

On political groups, it can take far uglier forms as we've seen over the past few years.
The same applied to me in my younger days as well, as a teenager. You listen to older fans who seems to be better at articulating the reasons why movie X is "definitively" bad and you accept their reasoning and change your views based on what they say. But movie-watching and enjoying art isn't a science. Humans enjoys things in a variety of different ways and have preferences over many, many things. Just because someone can article a good reason why they liked or dislike certain movies doesn't mean that can be applied to YOUR own personal reasons why you liked or disliked a film.

The idea that having a "consensus" or the majority's preferences = the "right" view is a very, very dangerous thing. It's a kind of thinking that subject minorities to bullying and persecutions(in more politically charged issues) just because it might not fit in with a "consensus".
Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.

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Re: The prequel hatedom needs to go die in a fire

Post by Elfdart » 2019-06-28 07:02pm

ray245 wrote:
2019-06-22 02:37pm
Bob the Gunslinger wrote:
2019-06-22 11:42am
Please. There is such a thing as consensus. "Everyone" agrees that Battlefield Earth is a bad movie and that Shawshank Redemption is a good movie. Do outliers who disagree exist? Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that we can make meaningful statements such as "Battlefield Earth is a bad piece of art and Shawshank Redemption is a good piece of art." This ability to classify art as successful or not based on the consensus of the vast majority of viewers is another tool along with film analysis which lets us safely say a film is 'objectively' bad, even when you personally enjoy it.

And if you pay any attention to the world outside of this forum, you know what the consensus is on the prequels as art.
Who gives a shit about "consensus" with the exception of fanboys? Consensus is useful for deciding political matters, but what does that have to do with art and entertainment?

The world outside this forum don't give a shit about the consensus about the prequels.
Well, it does spare people the burden of thinking for themselves and forming their own opinions. Why bother when one can just look at the Tomatometer?
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Re: The prequel hatedom needs to go die in a fire

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-06-28 07:22pm

Gandalf wrote:
2019-06-23 08:08pm
ray245 wrote:
2019-06-23 04:15pm
People have been taught to think so in that way, especially if you are an impressionable teenager. Fandoms tends to have strong culture of people trying to "fit in" and that encourages a level of tribalism in establishing what is "right" and what is "wrong".
Indeed. The internet has a degree of agency in this, because of the ease of forming online communities. If a community forms around a certain idea, then adherence to that idea determines legitimacy in the group. On a sci fi group like SDN, that might take the form of newer users seeking to be the most internet angry over the Prequels. Orthodoxy forms, and people usually either get on board or disengage. I'll admit I've been a part of this in my younger days.

On political groups, it can take far uglier forms as we've seen over the past few years.
And the two can overlap- the Alt. Reich used the usual fandom outrage over any new Star Wars film (and other franchises) to slip their persecuted white man complex and general hatred of the Other in, to turn the Star Wars fandom into a platform for their hate and agenda while giving themselves a thin cover of "we're just complaining about the movie so they can claim SJW persecution when anyone tries to call them on it.
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Re: The prequel hatedom needs to go die in a fire

Post by ray245 » 2019-06-28 07:30pm

Elfdart wrote:
2019-06-28 07:02pm
ray245 wrote:
2019-06-22 02:37pm
Bob the Gunslinger wrote:
2019-06-22 11:42am
Please. There is such a thing as consensus. "Everyone" agrees that Battlefield Earth is a bad movie and that Shawshank Redemption is a good movie. Do outliers who disagree exist? Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that we can make meaningful statements such as "Battlefield Earth is a bad piece of art and Shawshank Redemption is a good piece of art." This ability to classify art as successful or not based on the consensus of the vast majority of viewers is another tool along with film analysis which lets us safely say a film is 'objectively' bad, even when you personally enjoy it.

And if you pay any attention to the world outside of this forum, you know what the consensus is on the prequels as art.
Who gives a shit about "consensus" with the exception of fanboys? Consensus is useful for deciding political matters, but what does that have to do with art and entertainment?

The world outside this forum don't give a shit about the consensus about the prequels.
Well, it does spare people the burden of thinking for themselves and forming their own opinions. Why bother when one can just look at the Tomatometer?
I mean the tomatometer of the PT isn't even that low compared to some really really badly recieved blockbusters.

Batman V Superman is considered a film with "mixed" reception despite scoring a low 27 percent on RT. But somehow the prequels are considered universally "bad" even though they scored 54, 65 and 80 percent on RT.
Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.

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Re: The prequel hatedom needs to go die in a fire

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-06-28 07:58pm

ray245 wrote:
2019-06-28 07:30pm
Elfdart wrote:
2019-06-28 07:02pm
ray245 wrote:
2019-06-22 02:37pm


Who gives a shit about "consensus" with the exception of fanboys? Consensus is useful for deciding political matters, but what does that have to do with art and entertainment?

The world outside this forum don't give a shit about the consensus about the prequels.
Well, it does spare people the burden of thinking for themselves and forming their own opinions. Why bother when one can just look at the Tomatometer?
I mean the tomatometer of the PT isn't even that low compared to some really really badly recieved blockbusters.

Batman V Superman is considered a film with "mixed" reception despite scoring a low 27 percent on RT. But somehow the prequels are considered universally "bad" even though they scored 54, 65 and 80 percent on RT.
Saw "RT" and thought for a moment you were talking about Putin's propaganda network, not Rotten Tomatoes. :D

But yeah, I think that the biased narrative persists because "the Prequels were the worst movies ever, and everybody hated them" has been repeated so often by a relatively small group of bitter OT fanboys that other people just assume its true when it really isn't.

I was curious about how this would look for the Sequels, and FYI, the Disney films' Rotten Tomato ratings are:

The Force Awakens: 92% critics rating, 87% audience rating.
Rogue One: 84% critics rating, 86% audience rating.
The Last Jedi: 91% critics rating, 44% audience rating.
Solo: 70% critics rating, 64% audience rating.

While they normally have higher critics than audience scores, all scores except TLJ's audience score are well over 50% (and TFA and Rogue One score well above any of the Prequels), and even TLJ's audience score is much higher than the score for Batman V Superman. The average for the ST (not counting the third film, which hasn't premiered yet) is a 91.5 critics rating and a 65.5% audience rating.

Of course, this all says jack shit about artistic quality, because appeal to popularity is a fallacy. But if we're discussing just popularity, then neither Prequels nor Sequels fall into "generally hated" by any means.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"Trump admirers like @TuckerCarlson describe themselves as "nationalist." But their nationalism attaches not to the multiracial American nation... but to a multinational white race with a capital in Moscow"-David Frum

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Re: The prequel hatedom needs to go die in a fire

Post by ray245 » 2019-06-29 11:14am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-06-28 07:58pm
Saw "RT" and thought for a moment you were talking about Putin's propaganda network, not Rotten Tomatoes. :D

But yeah, I think that the biased narrative persists because "the Prequels were the worst movies ever, and everybody hated them" has been repeated so often by a relatively small group of bitter OT fanboys that other people just assume its true when it really isn't.

I was curious about how this would look for the Sequels, and FYI, the Disney films' Rotten Tomato ratings are:

The Force Awakens: 92% critics rating, 87% audience rating.
Rogue One: 84% critics rating, 86% audience rating.
The Last Jedi: 91% critics rating, 44% audience rating.
Solo: 70% critics rating, 64% audience rating.

While they normally have higher critics than audience scores, all scores except TLJ's audience score are well over 50% (and TFA and Rogue One score well above any of the Prequels), and even TLJ's audience score is much higher than the score for Batman V Superman. The average for the ST (not counting the third film, which hasn't premiered yet) is a 91.5 critics rating and a 65.5% audience rating.

Of course, this all says jack shit about artistic quality, because appeal to popularity is a fallacy. But if we're discussing just popularity, then neither Prequels nor Sequels fall into "generally hated" by any means.
I think the media is partly to blame for this. A responsible media outlet should be able to distinguish the noises from a relatively small group of online fans from the wider reception of a movie. Or least have the responsibility to doing some research and fact-checking before perpetuating certain myths.
Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.

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