The prequel hatedom needs to go die in a fire

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The prequel hatedom needs to go die in a fire

Post by Zor » 2019-01-26 12:53am

I never was one to hate on the prequels. I know they have their faults and weaknesses, but in the end what they are a set of solid enough sci-fi blockbusters which were at least trying to do something new with the material and have some genuinely great moments. They were not George Lucas being a hack phoning it in, they were experiments which succeeded more than they failed. They left their mark on pop culture as even today people know what's meant by "Roger Roger" or "Execute Order 66". The EUs have made good use of the materials offered up instead of simply pretending it never happened (even Episode 7 has a few references to stuff from the Prequels) and the franchise is better off because of them.
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And yet a lot of people did not like it and could not shut the fuck up about it. I can get the letdown of falling in love with the original trilogy and getting a film that was two thirds as good with some glaring problems, but treating it as a personal insult for two decades is beyond ridiculous. Having a bit of fun at the expense of a movie you don't like is one thing, but stretching it out constantly after everyone and his mom had made jokes about it is another. Especially when the haters have actually hounded people like Jake Lloyd to the point he went crazy or made Ahmed Best contemplate suicide.

If you don't like the the prequels, good for you. That's your choice in media. Nor am I saying that everyone who made a "I Don't Like Sand" joke is a horrible person. But the simple level of vitriol directed to them is frankly absurd and only makes Star Wars fans look bad.

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Re: The prequel hatedom needs to go die in a fire

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-01-26 01:10pm

Its entitlement, pure and simple. "We're fans, it wouldn't succeed without us, therefore we are owed it that the franchise cater exclusively to our wish list, even when our wishes are vague, impossible, contradictory, and there are millions of other fans with their own idea of the perfect Star Wars film. And if we don't get it, its a personal attack the likes of which the world had never seen."

I agree with everything you've said, with the addition that I feel the exact same way about Sequel hate.
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Re: The prequel hatedom needs to go die in a fire

Post by Crazedwraith » 2019-01-26 01:16pm

What a sane and sensible way to articulate and deal with differences in opinion.

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Re: The prequel hatedom needs to go die in a fire

Post by Darth Lucifer » 2019-01-26 02:08pm

I liked the movies when they came out, but I'll admit I fell into this camp around the time prequel trilogy review videos started popping up on the internet. Reviewers like Mr. Plinkett, Confused Matthew and others harped on all the bad aspects and completely ignored any merits.

Over time my views have shifted back in a more positive direction, especially after seeing the Anti-Cheese fan edits by JeremyMWest-Esquire aka "Scruffy-Scoundrel" (the definitive PT fan edits, which have since been pulled from YouTube). Watching Clone Wars on DVD also improved my perspective on the PT and now I don't hate it so much anymore.

I made it a point to avoid any YouTube videos of the Sequel Trilogy films because those reviews are just more of the same thing. The same goes for these so-called "news" clips who are just pissy Star Wars fans masquerading as entertainment journalists. When I see videos pop up on my YouTube homepage with names like "Why the Sequel films are a disaster" or "10 reasons why the Prequels failed" I promptly scroll down.

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Re: The prequel hatedom needs to go die in a fire

Post by Lord Revan » 2019-01-26 02:39pm

I have to wonder about "why prequels failed" as they didn't fail other then maybe in the minds of the OT purists since IIRC even ROTS made its budget back and change.

The whole prequel hate comes off as the so called purists being butthurt that Lucas didn't make films that would cater exclusively to them regardless of how bad the end result would be for the general population.

There's a difference between saying "I don't think the Star Wars prequels weren't good movies" and "The Star Wars prequels were the worst thing to happen ever and everyone who says otherwise is lying!"
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Re: The prequel hatedom needs to go die in a fire

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2019-01-26 03:05pm

Indeed. There are far worse SF films out there than the prequels. They have flaws, true, but objectively the OT had flaws. I've often wondered whether the hatred for the PT (and to a lesser extent the ST) is because fans are comparing them to their idealised memories of the OT, not the actual OT on the relative merits of the films.

And, ultimately, they achieved the objective of a set of Star Wars films. They entertained me enough to see them at least twice in cinemas, buy the DVD's and watch them again from time to time.

And they gave us the awesome that is Mace Windu and a younger Obi-Wan, so I'll overlook Jar-Jar and some of the dialogue and acting. Honestly though, people who complain about Anakin's pitiful attempts at romantic dialogue...have they ever heard what teenagers who have led such a (socially) sheltered life sound like? If anything it was too realistic.
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Re: The prequel hatedom needs to go die in a fire

Post by KraytKing » 2019-01-26 07:17pm

I am rather surprised to see this, I must say. I watched both Dennis the Phantom Menace and The Last Jedi again recently, and was appalled once more at both. Hell, even saying that I watched them is misleading; I didn't make it more than halfway through either. I was raised on Star Wars from the ripe old age of two, and it was the original trilogy from the start. I grew up knowing the prequels were bad films, but I still more than enjoyed them for the few moments of action teased at between scenes. Of course, Christmas was the most recent I had watched any of them since I was eight years old.

They are terrible, and I say that as objectively as possible. There are a handful of good moments between them, mostly in ROTS, but that is a movie that is dark for darkness' sake, coming out of a franchise founded on the romantic ideals of a hero saving a princess in space. Don't construe this as me suggesting that all movies should be lighthearted; precisely the opposite is my usual opinion. However, when you seek out gloom for its own sake, the product is instantly corrupted.

I can't tear them down again, but let me make clear: while I like the idea of the Clone Wars as laid out by the prequels (particularly Tartakovsky's rendition of it), I am adamant in my personal belief as a viewer of movies that they were terrible as films. I am quite surprised at how many here are rushing to agree with Zor, who''s taste in movies I have seen to be atrocious. Though, perhaps I shouldn't be; this is the crowd that generally approved of both Sequel Trilogy titles.
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Re: The prequel hatedom needs to go die in a fire

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2019-01-26 08:05pm

"I was raised on Star Wars from the ripe old age of two" - this is exactly my point. You've literally grown up with the OT and it's given you an idealised version of what SW should be which the prequels could never match up to.

As for ROTS being "Dark for darkness sake," umm, no. The whole point of that film is the culmination of how the bad guy wins and the rise of the Evil Empire. That simply isn't something that can be done any way but darkly.
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Re: The prequel hatedom needs to go die in a fire

Post by Zor » 2019-01-26 08:09pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:
2019-01-26 08:05pm
"I was raised on Star Wars from the ripe old age of two" - this is exactly my point. You've literally grown up with the OT and it's given you an idealised version of what SW should be which the prequels could never match up to.

As for ROTS being "Dark for darkness sake," umm, no. The whole point of that film is the culmination of how the bad guy wins and the rise of the Evil Empire. That simply isn't something that can be done any way but darkly.
Frankly the whole prequel trilogy can be read as The Tragedy of Darth Vader.
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Re: The prequel hatedom needs to go die in a fire

Post by KraytKing » 2019-01-26 10:34pm

I know enough about movies to see the holes in ROTJ and ANH. I can recognize good parts in the Prequels, such as the interaction between Anakin and Kenobi on Mustafar. And I thought that by stating that I liked the ideas laid down by the prequels despite my upbringing, I was making clear that I could see past my idealization of the OT, that I was not another of the butthurt fanboys. Many apologies if I was not clear, but none if that was willfully ignored.

I can also see that it is fucking stupid to have Palpatine do FOUR EVIL HEAD TURNS in his conversation with Anakin at the Opera House*. I can see shitty CGI taking up every inch of screen. I can see a misguided attempt to appeal to children in the first, followed by a half-assed attempt to fix it by going rom-com for half a movie in the second, and then a massive overcorrection in the third to compensate for the fan hate already appearing. Tell me again that these are good movies in comparison to other blockbusters, let alone Star Wars.

*I'll admit it, I stole the head-turns comment from Screen Junkies. Even so, it is a good point, but don't let my plagiarism detract from my argument. Ignore it, if need be.
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Re: The prequel hatedom needs to go die in a fire

Post by Batman » 2019-01-26 11:45pm

I dunno. I wholeheartedly agree that the hatred bleeding over into harassing the people involved in creating the Prequels is a big No Go but they 'were' one hell of a letdown, to the point I never bothered to see AotC in theaters. About the best thing that can be said about the prequels is that they spawned the Clone Wars cartoon
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Re: The prequel hatedom needs to go die in a fire

Post by ray245 » 2019-01-27 07:15am

Batman wrote:
2019-01-26 11:45pm
I dunno. I wholeheartedly agree that the hatred bleeding over into harassing the people involved in creating the Prequels is a big No Go but they 'were' one hell of a letdown, to the point I never bothered to see AotC in theaters. About the best thing that can be said about the prequels is that they spawned the Clone Wars cartoon
Being let down is an indication you have high expectations of the movie in the first place. I don't think the prequels could ever reach the expectations the fans wanted, but that does not mean they are bad movies to newer and younger fans.

I am always getting this feeling that there is a generational divide. The older fans who grew up with the OT tend to dislike the PT more so than the younger fans who grew up with the prequels and etc.

As a 90s/2000s kid, I'm always getting the perception that there's a nostalgia bias among geekdom. The 70s and 80s are praised to high heaven, even if they are shows/movies with fairly generic and simple storylines. But the same group of people will look down on the newer IP for being too kiddy and etc.
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Re: The prequel hatedom needs to go die in a fire

Post by U.P. Cinnabar » 2019-01-27 07:28am

Zor wrote:
2019-01-26 12:53am
I never was one to hate on the prequels. I know they have their faults and weaknesses, but in the end what they are a set of solid enough sci-fi blockbusters which were at least trying to do something new with the material and have some genuinely great moments. They were not George Lucas being a hack phoning it in, they were experiments which succeeded more than they failed. They left their mark on pop culture as even today people know what's meant by "Roger Roger" or "Execute Order 66". The EUs have made good use of the materials offered up instead of simply pretending it never happened (even Episode 7 has a few references to stuff from the Prequels) and the franchise is better off because of them.

(snip graphic)

And yet a lot of people did not like it and could not shut the fuck up about it. I can get the letdown of falling in love with the original trilogy and getting a film that was two thirds as good with some glaring problems, but treating it as a personal insult for two decades is beyond ridiculous. Having a bit of fun at the expense of a movie you don't like is one thing, but stretching it out constantly after everyone and his mom had made jokes about it is another. Especially when the haters have actually hounded people like Jake Lloyd to the point he went crazy or made Ahmed Best contemplate suicide.

If you don't like the the prequels, good for you. That's your choice in media. Nor am I saying that everyone who made a "I Don't Like Sand" joke is a horrible person. But the simple level of vitriol directed to them is frankly absurd and only makes Star Wars fans look bad.

Zor
I always felt a primary source of prequel hate stems from the fans having made the Jedi into super-heroic, he-man, godling idols, and Lucas pissing them off by not only showing their idols to have feet of clay, but also to be the agents of not just their downfall, but the downfall of the Republic into the tyrannical Empire.
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And, I'm tickled pink that the sequels seem to bear this out. And, the same observations Zor made about the prequels can be applied to the sequels and their detractors. All of them, especially the last statement.
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Re: The prequel hatedom needs to go die in a fire

Post by U.P. Cinnabar » 2019-01-27 07:37am

Darth Lucifer wrote:
2019-01-26 02:08pm
I made it a point to avoid any YouTube videos of the Sequel Trilogy films because those reviews are just more of the same thing. The same goes for these so-called "news" clips who are just pissy Star Wars fans masquerading as entertainment journalists. When I see videos pop up on my YouTube homepage with names like "Why the Sequel films are a disaster" or "10 reasons why the Prequels failed" I promptly scroll down.
Especially since those vids, and the comments thereof are all from butthurt Gamergaters looking for another reason to whine, bitch and moan about "femnazis," "SJWs," and "virtue signalling."

To go off on a bit of a tangent, this level of toxicity and rabid revisionism has infected all fandoms across the board since Gamergate, and especially since Trump became President, with an organized, vocal minority of sad puppy fanboys and their troll accounts trying to twist their particular franchises into advertisements supporting their twisted red-pill, right-wing ideologies; B5 fandom, in particular, is lousy with these pests, constantly comparing Clarke to Hillary/Obama and Sheridan to Trump, even after the Great Maker himself said they were damn fools for doing so.
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Re: The prequel hatedom needs to go die in a fire

Post by U.P. Cinnabar » 2019-01-27 07:42am

Zor wrote:
2019-01-26 08:09pm
Eternal_Freedom wrote:
2019-01-26 08:05pm
"I was raised on Star Wars from the ripe old age of two" - this is exactly my point. You've literally grown up with the OT and it's given you an idealised version of what SW should be which the prequels could never match up to.

As for ROTS being "Dark for darkness sake," umm, no. The whole point of that film is the culmination of how the bad guy wins and the rise of the Evil Empire. That simply isn't something that can be done any way but darkly.
Frankly the whole prequel trilogy can be read as The Tragedy of Darth Vader.
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You forgot redeemption.

@Phil: It also tickles me pink how Jar Jar ended up with the last word in the Original Trilogy. Nice to see Lucas get in a "fuck you" to the fans.
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Re: The prequel hatedom needs to go die in a fire

Post by Vendetta » 2019-01-27 02:17pm

Lord Revan wrote:
2019-01-26 02:39pm
I have to wonder about "why prequels failed" as they didn't fail other then maybe in the minds of the OT purists since IIRC even ROTS made its budget back and change.
The prequels didn't fail commercially, but by that yardstick Michael Bay made a staggeringly successful adaptation of Transformers.

The prequels are bad movies though. The two most critical roles, Anakin and Padme, are poorly portrayed either because the actors were too young and not sufficiently supported by the director (Lloyd), stiff and bland (Christiansen), or blatantly not engaged with the work (Portman, who does a sterling impression of someone showing up for a paycheck when she isn't interested in the script, see also her creditable performance as a shop mannequin in Thor). The acting in the OT wasn't necessarily a masterclass in the craft, but the OT was also mostly conveying a much broader story. Heroic plucky rebels defeat evil empire is enough to carry the work and Luke's attempt to personally connect with and redeem his father gives that greater texture. The PT is wholly dependent on the personal journey of Anakin into Vader and because that's dull, bland, and stiff because the actors are bad or disinterested and badly directed the throughline can't hold up the trilogy.

A lot of the direction works on the basis that interesting things will be added to the shot later with CGI, a lot of dialogue is either portentous and dull (whenever Jedi are talking) or technical and dull (the inciting incident for the first movie is a nonspecific trade dispute for god's sake)

Prequels are at an inherent disadvantage anyway*. They are shackled to things established in a previous work in a way which restricts them from genuinely adding to it, denude the original of mystery in places where it is valuable, and generally upset people by denying their personal interpretation of a work in favour of one handed down from on high (an entire trilogy of Greedo shooting first if you will).

* Discussing prequels, Star Wars, and Harry Potter.

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Re: The prequel hatedom needs to go die in a fire

Post by Crazedwraith » 2019-01-27 02:27pm

Zor wrote:
2019-01-26 08:09pm
Frankly the whole prequel trilogy can be read as The Tragedy of Darth Vader.
No shit sherlock! What a remarkable revelation you are revealing to us.

I find hilarious everyone positing the real reason why people dislike the prequels. Maybe the reasons they dislike the prequels are... the ones they say they dislike the prequels for.

In similar vein maybe people are only defending the prequels because its the perceived unpopular option and are they flailing for identity in being counter culture posers? I'm not like those other people, I don't hate the prequel! Gasp, how shocking i am.


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Re: The prequel hatedom needs to go die in a fire

Post by Avrjoe » 2019-01-28 03:38am

The prequels were not horrid, but they did lack something. After a lot of research the conclusion I came to is George Lucas didn't have anyone being harsh with him in the editing room. This is somewhat illustrated by this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFMyMxMYDNk
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Re: The prequel hatedom needs to go die in a fire

Post by Lord Revan » 2019-01-28 03:51am

I think some people are mistaking not liking the fanatical, harass the people in involved in real life hatred for the prequels with demanding that everyone like them.

Not liking SW PT is fine as is being sceptical about prequels in general but when it comes to automatically dismissing something without giving it its "fair chance" or worse harassing the people involved in real life, because the movie didn't meet you standards it's going too far.
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Re: The prequel hatedom needs to go die in a fire

Post by KraytKing » 2019-01-28 07:08am

For God's sake, why is anyone debating that they were bad movies? They were awful, a true pain to watch, and not for what they did to the continuity. The problem with them is that Lucas is an idiot who got lucky once and he proceeded to surround himself with idiots. Everything bad that can happen to a movie or a series did, speaking within the PT. The only things about Star Wars that have improved consistently with time are the score and the choreography in lightsaber battles. Even the second is a bit dubious at times.
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Re: The prequel hatedom needs to go die in a fire

Post by KraytKing » 2019-01-28 07:15am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-01-26 01:10pm
Its entitlement, pure and simple. "We're fans, it wouldn't succeed without us, therefore we are owed it that the franchise cater exclusively to our wish list, even when our wishes are vague, impossible, contradictory, and there are millions of other fans with their own idea of the perfect Star Wars film. And if we don't get it, its a personal attack the likes of which the world had never seen."

I agree with everything you've said, with the addition that I feel the exact same way about Sequel hate.
Please, enough of your self-righteousness. I can't speak for national audiences, but everyone in my extended family hates PT, ST, and ROTJ because they were bad movies. Nobody feels bad about trashing any other bad movies, I don't see why we should start just because these had famous ancestors.
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Re: The prequel hatedom needs to go die in a fire

Post by Galvatron » 2019-01-28 12:08pm

Even now, as I die in a fire, I still think the prequels are terrible...

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The Romulan Republic
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Re: The prequel hatedom needs to go die in a fire

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-01-28 03:12pm

KraytKing wrote:
2019-01-28 07:15am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2019-01-26 01:10pm
Its entitlement, pure and simple. "We're fans, it wouldn't succeed without us, therefore we are owed it that the franchise cater exclusively to our wish list, even when our wishes are vague, impossible, contradictory, and there are millions of other fans with their own idea of the perfect Star Wars film. And if we don't get it, its a personal attack the likes of which the world had never seen."

I agree with everything you've said, with the addition that I feel the exact same way about Sequel hate.
Please, enough of your self-righteousness. I can't speak for national audiences, but everyone in my extended family hates PT, ST, and ROTJ because they were bad movies. Nobody feels bad about trashing any other bad movies, I don't see why we should start just because these had famous ancestors.
How about because the hostility leveled against them is vastly disproportionate to their actual sins? Or because this happens (to a greater or lesser extent) with every single new Star Wars film, including the sainted Empire Strikes Back when it originally came out? Or because far too many fans are incapable of telling the difference between "movie that wasn't what I personally wanted" and "objectively bad movie" (there's that entitlement I speak of)? Or because whatever your personal motives for disliking the films, the organized internet hatedom at this point is very heavily tied in with the Alt. Reich's agenda?
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Re: The prequel hatedom needs to go die in a fire

Post by U.P. Cinnabar » 2019-01-28 04:03pm

The Romulan Republic wrote: the organized internet hatedom at this point is very heavily tied in with the Alt. Reich's agenda?
And, not confined to Star Wars fandom either, as mentioned upthread, as franchises are twisted by red-pilling knuckledraggers to fit their already twisted narratives.
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Re: The prequel hatedom needs to go die in a fire

Post by Iroscato » 2019-01-28 04:23pm

The prequels fucking suck. They suck sweaty sperm-encrusted shit-flecked prolapsing bum flaps. I know it, you know it deep down, and the day the world universally acknowledges and accepts this fact is the day humanity can begin to move forward and usher in a new dawn.

Splendid meme material though, has to be said.
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