Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

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Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by Kane Starkiller » 2018-12-02 05:40am

Vympel wrote:Luke of the ST was never going to be some power-fantasy MCU character, just waiting to make some triumphant appearance in the film like Thor in Ragnarok or infinity War - which is what so many fans seemed to want. It's simply not Star Wars, and never was. This is a series that presents Luke's ultimate defeat of Vader not as a triumphant moment but as a tragedy that's about to damn his soul, and that which presents his greatest moment as the moment he tossed away his weapon.
Yeah it's nonsense. I mean Thor survived when Thanos blew up the ship he was on leaving him floating around in vacuum. Expecting to see something like that in SW is foolish. :D

But seriously I wasn't expecting to see Luke ride on lightning from whatever planet he was on and taking out Snoke's ship singlehandedly. I was expecting to find him doing something constructive on that planet. Instead he is just moping there aimlessly while the First Order builds up towards victory.
And then all it takes is one line from Yoda about failure to snap him out of his self pity. I mean it was a great line, perhaps the single best line in all of Star Wars movies, but Jesus H. Christ after everything Luke has been through all the victories, losses, trials and tribulations he still needs Yoda to egg him on? I guess I should be grateful he wasn't hiding on Toshi station and tinkering with power converters.

And then hilariously we are treated to the Thor entrance as Luke stares down the First Order Army. Oh except it's not real Luke but just a projection. So it's both silly looking and it's not actually real. As Londo would say "how efficient of you" Rian.
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Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by Vympel » 2018-12-02 06:03am

Kane Starkiller wrote:
2018-12-02 05:40am
Yeah it's nonsense. I mean Thor survived when Thanos blew up the ship he was on leaving him floating around in vacuum. Expecting to see something like that in SW is foolish. :D

But seriously I wasn't expecting to see Luke ride on lightning from whatever planet he was on and taking out Snoke's ship singlehandedly. I was expecting to find him doing something constructive on that planet. Instead he is just moping there aimlessly while the First Order builds up towards victory.
Which as already noted flies in the face of everything both stated and implied in TFA. You have to literally ignore each and everything we are told in TFA to believe that this was ever going to be a thing.
And then all it takes is one line from Yoda about failure to snap him out of his self pity. I mean it was a great line, perhaps the single best line in all of Star Wars movies, but Jesus H. Christ after everything Luke has been through all the victories, losses, trials and tribulations he still needs Yoda to egg him on? I guess I should be grateful he wasn't hiding on Toshi station and tinkering with power converters.

And then hilariously we are treated to the Thor entrance as Luke stares down the First Order Army. Oh except it's not real Luke but just a projection. So it's both silly looking and it's not actually real. As Londo would say "how efficient of you" Rian.
The "Luke wasn't really there" thing is such a bizarre complaint. Why does it matter if it's "just a projection"? What of any significance about that scene or its purpose in the story which would change if Luke was physically there? Absolutely nothing. The display of power and his sacrifice is what matters, not where he happened to "actually" be. It reads like a veiled complaint that Luke didn't - I don't know - stop a bajillion blaster bolts with a wave of his hand and throw AT-ATs around and all this other insipid wank. Otherwise I'm not sure what the point of the complaint is?

Luke projecting himself is the ideal of what a Jedi is meant to be at its core. It's a display of mastery set up by the film that is entirely non-violent which saves everyone, and which dovetails beautifully with Yoda's lesson to Luke in TESB:

https://youtu.be/EJz2FXkZb7g?t=144

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFGBoSt1dOo

Rian Johnson took that seriously rather than just ignoring it in favor of acrobatics and telekinesis. It's not in any way a 'Thor entrance' in content or tone.
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Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-12-02 06:11am

Vympel wrote:
2018-12-02 04:07am
So, I guess Luke did nothing in-between Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi then, because training to become better after a defeat is so un-Jedi like. Especially if he's going to the original Jedi temple, what other possible reason could he want to go there besides to drink space-cow milk and go fishing? It's totally unreasonable of the audience to expect he went there to train to become better or to master some new skill or art in the force. :roll:
Why would you assume Luke 'trained' beteen ESB and ROTJ in any sort of significant way? Luke's 'training' was so unimportant to the story that ROTJ goes out of its way to confirm that Luke hasn't even been to see Yoda since the end of ESB. And Luke found out that the monster he was out to destroy was his father, you think he wanted to train to become better (so as to what, kill Vader?) after that?
Because if nothing else, we saw Luke had done a few things to become more of a Jedi, for instance, making a lightsaber. It may not have been as a plan to kill his father, but it is proof that he did *something* to further go down the path of becoming a Jedi.
Luke of the ST was never going to be some power-fantasy MCU character, just waiting to make some triumphant appearance in the film like Thor in Ragnarok or infinity War - which is what so many fans seemed to want. It's simply not Star Wars, and never was. This is a series that presents Luke's ultimate defeat of Vader not as a triumphant moment but as a tragedy that's about to damn his soul, and that which presents his greatest moment as the moment he tossed away his weapon.
Hence the idea of Luke walking away so as to not upset the apple cart, to not make things worse on a grand scale. As opposed to fighting immediately and killing his nephew mercilessly. For some reason, you think that the better narrative option is for Luke purposely becoming a bitter old hermit who drinks milk and goes fishing is a better narrative choice than say, embracing Jedi spiritually and becoming more philosophical and wise.
And yes, its unreasonable. It requires you to believe the following things:

- Han is ignorant and/or a liar; and
- Luke is a fool who makes things massively difficult for his friends and family and deliberately places his life (and those of his friends) in danger for no good reason - banking on said friends going off on a wild goose chase to find him rather than simply telling him where he was.
Han not being an expert on the force isn't exactly out of step for his character. And the problem is, if Luke really wants to end the Jedi line, he can just use a thermal detonator and bomb himself and the temple immediately, rather than slowly dying from old age.

Studying some higher mysteries of the force or whatever would be more in-character, as it would show Luke is actually doing *something* in the intervening 30 years.
Or, you know, he's there to hide while he becomes better at something, or to not upset the apple cart until the opportune moment, or some other reason besides he's become a bitter old man who wastes his time walking around an island for no purpose whatsoever except to wait for death?
Why does he need to hide?


So as to not have the First Order find him, and presumably whatever Jedi secrets he discovered at the Temple that are worth guarding? Star Wars Rebels played this plotline about half a dozen times with all the leftover Jedi crap they are looking for and finding in the show.
If he does need to hide, why does he need to keep that a secret from his friends? What 'apple cart' is he going to upset?
Presumably so that they have plausible deniability when it comes to whatever he's up to. The 'apple cart' is the galactic balance as a whole and how entering into a fight at whatever state he is in now would not be prudent for preserving the galaxy as compared to coming when he has finished doing whatever he's supposed to be doing on that island. Whether it's mastering some mystery of the force, or discovering some secret about Snoke, finding out what Palpatine's favorite flavor of ice cream was, whatever. It'd show that Luke was actually doing something more productive than he was in The Last Jedi.
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Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by Kane Starkiller » 2018-12-02 07:11am

Vympel wrote:Which as already noted flies in the face of everything both stated and implied in TFA. You have to literally ignore each and everything we are told in TFA to believe that this was ever going to be a thing.
And the characterization of Luke is just as pathetic in TFA as it was in TLJ. The difference being that in TFA there was still a possibility that there was more going on with Luke than just him uselessly moping. That he was doing something other than nothing at all.

Vympel wrote:The "Luke wasn't really there" thing is such a bizarre complaint. Why does it matter if it's "just a projection"? What of any significance about that scene or its purpose in the story which would change if Luke was physically there? Absolutely nothing. The display of power and his sacrifice is what matters, not where he happened to "actually" be. It reads like a veiled complaint that Luke didn't - I don't know - stop a bajillion blaster bolts with a wave of his hand and throw AT-ATs around and all this other insipid wank. Otherwise I'm not sure what the point of the complaint is?

Luke projecting himself is the ideal of what a Jedi is meant to be at its core. It's a display of mastery set up by the film that is entirely non-violent which saves everyone, and which dovetails beautifully with Yoda's lesson to Luke in TESB:

https://youtu.be/EJz2FXkZb7g?t=144

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFGBoSt1dOo

Rian Johnson took that seriously rather than just ignoring it in favor of acrobatics and telekinesis. It's not in any way a 'Thor entrance' in content or tone.
Yeah such a weird complaint. I mean what difference does it make if he is there actually able to affect events or just smoke and mirrors dependent on Kylo being retarded enough not to realize that it's just a projection and then derailing the First Order attack for no reason.
Yeah Luke stopping a billion blaster bolts is insipid wank. In other words Kylo is a retard. In other words script is retarded.
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Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by Vympel » 2018-12-02 07:26am

FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-12-02 06:11am
Because if nothing else, we saw Luke had done a few things to become more of a Jedi, for instance, making a lightsaber. It may not have been as a plan to kill his father, but it is proof that he did *something* to further go down the path of becoming a Jedi?
That's a mere technical skill. Yoda told Luke he already had that which he needed, because his experience in TESB - specifically not falling to the dark side - was what was actually important.
Hence the idea of Luke walking away so as to not upset the apple cart, to not make things worse on a grand scale. As opposed to fighting immediately and killing his nephew mercilessly. For some reason, you think that the better narrative option is for Luke purposely becoming a bitter old hermit who drinks milk and goes fishing is a better narrative choice than say, embracing Jedi spiritually and becoming more philosophical and wise.
Yes, it is a better narrative option. Because Luke sitting around being wise carries zero drama with it. It gives the character absolutely nowhere to go - no arc, no struggle, no restoration - and hence no real story. Instead its just taking this character and turning him into a shallow mentor figure, waiting around to mouth some wise sounding things at Rey.
Han not being an expert on the force isn't exactly out of step for his character. And the problem is, if Luke really wants to end the Jedi line, he can just use a thermal detonator and bomb himself and the temple immediately, rather than slowly dying from old age.

Studying some higher mysteries of the force or whatever would be more in-character, as it would show Luke is actually doing *something* in the intervening 30 years.
It's not about Han being an 'expert in the Force', its about actually knowing what happened to one of his closest friends to make him leave. As for Luke not blowing himself up - the film makes it quite obvious that Luke is conflicted about the end of the Jedi. It's why he hasn't simply offed himself or burned down the temple, and why he rails against the Jedi texts being destroyed by Yoda even when he was supposedly about to do it himself.

"Higher mysteries" of the Force has no story-telling value whatsoever. It's pure lore. It'd just have Mark Hamill spout some spooky made up mumbo-jumbo. It's not a story, let alone an interesting story. To quote George RR Martin quoting William Faulkner: the only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself.
So as to not have the First Order find him, and presumably whatever Jedi secrets he discovered at the Temple that are worth guarding? Star Wars Rebels played this plotline about half a dozen times with all the leftover Jedi crap they are looking for and finding in the show.
Rebels was mostly terrible, why would we do that again?
Presumably so that they have plausible deniability when it comes to whatever he's up to. The 'apple cart' is the galactic balance as a whole and how entering into a fight at whatever state he is in now would not be prudent for preserving the galaxy as compared to coming when he has finished doing whatever he's supposed to be doing on that island. Whether it's mastering some mystery of the force, or discovering some secret about Snoke, finding out what Palpatine's favorite flavor of ice cream was, whatever. It'd show that Luke was actually doing something more productive than he was in The Last Jedi.
Luke "doing something productive" isn't story. It's prescriptive plotting, i.e. "I think this about Luke and because I think this thing about Luke he needs to be 'pro-active". There's no actual drama behind any of this.
Kane Starkiller wrote:
2018-12-02 07:11am
And the characterization of Luke is just as pathetic in TFA as it was in TLJ. The difference being that in TFA there was still a possibility that there was more going on with Luke than just him uselessly moping. That he was doing something other than nothing at all.
The characterisation is great. It's evocative of the path of many heroes in myth, who triumph and then enter a period of decline after their triumph.
"With Mark, it was a much bigger conversation about the whole kind of shape of the character and where it was going. And it was about his expectations coming into it and I think the expectation that this would be, you know, much closer to the Luke from - that was the hero, his hero's journey from the original trilogy.

Whereas for me, this is 30 years later, and not only that, this is - you know - if you look at any classic kind of hero's myth that is worth its salt, and if you look at the beginning of the hero's journey like with King Arthur, he pulls the sword from the stone and he's ascendant, he has setbacks, but he unites all the kingdoms and get his knights together, or Beowulf - you know - killing Grendel's mother and taking it all down and getting his own hall.

There's always that first arc, but then any one of these things, if you keep reading and it goes past that and then you get into the hero's middle aged life and beyond, it always starts to get into - you think about King Arthur betrayed by his best friend and his wife and ultimately depending on what version you read, coming up against the product of incest from him who has completely usurped his kingdom, and he has to kill him at the cost of his own life - it gets into darker places.

And there's a reason for that. Because myths are not made to sell action figures. They're made to reflect the difficult transitions we go through in life. That early part of the hero's journey- I think - is about going from adolescence into adulthood, where you're ascendant and you're finding yourself, and you're winning.

In order for something to address middle age and beyond in a really honest way, if you look at the myths - the Fisher King, it deals with disillusionment, like you're losing your place in the world, everything changing, and loss - and that's because they're honest and they have to be honest because that's what these things are there for.


And it would be a betrayal of them and of Luke Skywalker as a character not to take it seriously enough to reflect that I think, and just give us the waxworks version of Luke that we might love and expect, because he's up there as the action figure in plastic on our wall looking heroic and stuff. If you want to take him seriously as a character- for me at least - it felt important to go into that realm.
But sure, why consider all these issues about transition and change and age and heroic myths when your rose-tinted glasses version of Luke (who never actually existed) is at stake.
Yeah such a weird complaint. I mean what difference does it make if he is there actually able to affect events or just smoke and mirrors dependent on Kylo being retarded enough not to realize that it's just a projection and then derailing the First Order attack for no reason.
Yeah Luke stopping a billion blaster bolts is insipid wank. In other words Kylo is a retard. In other words script is retarded.
The only thing retarded here is your argument. You complain he can't "affect events" and yet he ... affects events! But you don't like that because ... Kylo Ren is just LOL TOO DUMB to notice that it's just a projection which you're sure Stardestroyer.net Competent! Kylo Ren would've easily detected.

What a stupid script, the villain is compromised by his previously established character flaws and hangups! What retarded writing!

It's so funny that this is the shallow and frankly childish response I get when pointing to Yoda's teachings in TESB as where TLJ got the inspiration for Luke's finale. Like, what do you think Star Wars the essence of Star Wars even is, if not that?

If only Luke had really shown up and used Speical Force Ball x10000 that he unlocked after leveling up his powers by doing Force Pull deadlifts, then the script would've been much better, right?
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Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by Kane Starkiller » 2018-12-02 07:46am

Vympel wrote:The only thing retarded here is your argument. You complain he can't "affect events" and yet he ... affects events! But you don't like that because ... Kylo Ren is just LOL TOO DUMB to notice that it's just a projection which you're sure Stardestroyer.net Competent! Kylo Ren would've easily detected.

What a stupid script, the villain is compromised by his previously established character flaws and hangups! What retarded writing!

It's so funny that this is the shallow and frankly childish response I get when pointing to Yoda's teachings in TESB as where TLJ got the inspiration for Luke's finale. Like, what do you think Star Wars the essence of Star Wars even is, if not that?
Yes he affects events because Kylo is an idiot. He might as well have used a communicator to call Kylo and tell him a few Yo Mama jokes. Maybe even say he kissed her once! That would've surely thrown Kylo off for a loop!
Between the existance of holo projectors, Force ghosts etc. yes Kylo should have seen something was off when he survived 50 AT-ATs firing at Luke.

Vympel wrote:If only Luke had really shown up and used Speical Force Ball x10000 that he unlocked after leveling up his powers by doing Force Pull deadlifts, then the script would've been much better, right?
Maybe he should've used the "Snoke Force Drop Hux On the Floor" from million lightyears away instead?
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Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by Vympel » 2018-12-02 08:11am

Kane Starkiller wrote:
2018-12-02 07:46am
Yes he affects events because Kylo is an idiot. He might as well have used a communicator to call Kylo and tell him a few Yo Mama jokes. Maybe even say he kissed her once! That would've surely thrown Kylo off for a loop!
Between the existance of holo projectors, Force ghosts etc. yes Kylo should have seen something was off when he survived 50 AT-ATs firing at Luke.
Ah yes, of course, Kylo Ren is so stupid for not realising the object of his hatred and obsession wasn't *check notes* a Force ghost, the semi-transparent shimmering blue things that he would've noticed if he had *check notes again* watched TESB or ROTJ, or if he *double checks notes* posited the existence of a high-fidelity holo projector with no obvious source which can create a perfect facsimile of Luke unlike any other hologram we've ever actually seen.

I mean, it's not like the movie showed us through Ben and Rey's repeated interactions that they could feel each other's presence through the Force when they were in proximity to each other or Luke and Leia's tender interaction just prior to him walking out that this was obviously something that could be tangibly felt through the Force and not some cheap optical trick. That would be just silly, right? And the whole "the effort would kill you" thing doesn't figure into Kylo's assumed knowledge, either.

No, better to just rail about holoprojectors like some aggressively obvious parody of the Comic Book store guy from the Simpsons. Jesus Christ - do you actually believe this pure undalterated childish horseshit? It's just embarassing at this point.
Maybe he should've used the "Snoke Force Drop Hux On the Floor" from million lightyears away instead?
I'm not even sure what point this is supposed to have.
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Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-12-02 09:03am

Vympel wrote:
2018-12-02 07:26am
FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-12-02 06:11am
Because if nothing else, we saw Luke had done a few things to become more of a Jedi, for instance, making a lightsaber. It may not have been as a plan to kill his father, but it is proof that he did *something* to further go down the path of becoming a Jedi?
That's a mere technical skill. Yoda told Luke he already had that which he needed, because his experience in TESB - specifically not falling to the dark side - was what was actually important.
Debateable. It's showing that he is mastering his Jedi training and coming into his own. Narratively, it's showing that Luke can stand in his own two feet the same way that he effortlessly tricks Jabba's guards in the palace.

Or is his learning to master the mind trick just a technical skill as well?
Hence the idea of Luke walking away so as to not upset the apple cart, to not make things worse on a grand scale. As opposed to fighting immediately and killing his nephew mercilessly. For some reason, you think that the better narrative option is for Luke purposely becoming a bitter old hermit who drinks milk and goes fishing is a better narrative choice than say, embracing Jedi spiritually and becoming more philosophical and wise.
Yes, it is a better narrative option. Because Luke sitting around being wise carries zero drama with it. It gives the character absolutely nowhere to go - no arc, no struggle, no restoration - and hence no real story. Instead its just taking this character and turning him into a shallow mentor figure, waiting around to mouth some wise sounding things at Rey.
Or it presents a few narrative options of someone trying to atone, of where spirituality meets reality, and how personal enlightenment can come at the cost of the real world, or other things.

But Luke becoming a burnout is cool, too.
Han not being an expert on the force isn't exactly out of step for his character. And the problem is, if Luke really wants to end the Jedi line, he can just use a thermal detonator and bomb himself and the temple immediately, rather than slowly dying from old age.

Studying some higher mysteries of the force or whatever would be more in-character, as it would show Luke is actually doing *something* in the intervening 30 years.
It's not about Han being an 'expert in the Force', its about actually knowing what happened to one of his closest friends to make him leave. As for Luke not blowing himself up - the film makes it quite obvious that Luke is conflicted about the end of the Jedi. It's why he hasn't simply offed himself or burned down the temple, and why he rails against the Jedi texts being destroyed by Yoda even when he was supposedly about to do it himself.

"Higher mysteries" of the Force has no story-telling value whatsoever. It's pure lore. It'd just have Mark Hamill spout some spooky made up mumbo-jumbo. It's not a story, let alone an interesting story. To quote George RR Martin quoting William Faulkner: the only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself.
And a man trying to become better because he failed is a worse plotline than a man who just gives up?
So as to not have the First Order find him, and presumably whatever Jedi secrets he discovered at the Temple that are worth guarding? Star Wars Rebels played this plotline about half a dozen times with all the leftover Jedi crap they are looking for and finding in the show.
Rebels was mostly terrible, why would we do that again?
Because regardless of the quality of the show, it's more in- character for Luke to be trying to find some way in his mind to help than deciding that letting everyone die is a good thing?
Presumably so that they have plausible deniability when it comes to whatever he's up to. The 'apple cart' is the galactic balance as a whole and how entering into a fight at whatever state he is in now would not be prudent for preserving the galaxy as compared to coming when he has finished doing whatever he's supposed to be doing on that island. Whether it's mastering some mystery of the force, or discovering some secret about Snoke, finding out what Palpatine's favorite flavor of ice cream was, whatever. It'd show that Luke was actually doing something more productive than he was in The Last Jedi.
Luke "doing something productive" isn't story. It's prescriptive plotting, i.e. "I think this about Luke and because I think this thing about Luke he needs to be 'pro-active". There's no actual drama behind any of this.
There's also in-character and out of character. TFA established that he was at some hidden Jedi temple. That's it. And TLJ established that Luke was someone who was okay with everyone dying until Yoda had to tell him at the last minute that he should get over himself.

As opposed to someone who cares, as established in the previous films.
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Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by Kane Starkiller » 2018-12-02 11:45am

Vympel wrote:The characterisation is great. It's evocative of the path of many heroes in myth, who triumph and then enter a period of decline after their triumph.
Missed this one. No it fucking isn't. You think you can defend Luke's nonsensical change between Episode 6 and 8 with some vague appeal to other heroes in myth?
This is the person that witnessed someone that for decades was on the dark side doing evil and set in his ways of doing evil redeeming himself.
A person that witnessed the fall of Galactic Empire and was instrumental in bringing it down.
But sometime between Episode 6 and 7 he has some sort of panic attack that his nephew might become evil which then leads to comedy of errors sequence of events that causes Kylo to leave.
So now Luke that wouldn't give up on Vader decides to give up on his own nephew for whose fall he actually felt he was partially responsible. And just lets First Order increase its power over the years until it rules the galaxy again. And doesn't give a shit about what happens to his sister or Han Solo. And his first words to Chewbacca are "what are you doing here" after not seeing him for possibly a decade. I mean I never considered Chewbacca all that important of a character but come the fuck on. You can hug him and then ask him why he came here.

Vympel wrote:Ah yes, of course, Kylo Ren is so stupid for not realising the object of his hatred and obsession wasn't *check notes* a Force ghost, the semi-transparent shimmering blue things that he would've noticed if he had *check notes again* watched TESB or ROTJ, or if he *double checks notes* posited the existence of a high-fidelity holo projector with no obvious source which can create a perfect facsimile of Luke unlike any other hologram we've ever actually seen.
:D I love how you first imply that the possibility of Kylo considering this to be a holoprojection is just me being too nerdy but then continue on to dismiss the idea because the TESB and ROTJ never "posited the existence of high-fidelity holo projector".
Yeah I'm just being way to nerdy about all of this. I mean they just unloaded their entire artillery to this guys face and there is not a scratch on him. I mean what kind of egghead would Kylo have to be to consider that this was some sort of illusion right? No one would've made that connection.
But let's say he's convinced, it's the heat of the moment. Quick question. What the hell is he doing going down there? Luke just absorbed a million AT-AT blaster bolts. What the fuck is he going to do with his shitty lightsaber? Luke is just going to grab it by the energy blade and beat him up with the hilt.

Vympel wrote:I mean, it's not like the movie showed us through Ben and Rey's repeated interactions that they could feel each other's presence through the Force when they were in proximity to each other or Luke and Leia's tender interaction just prior to him walking out that this was obviously something that could be tangibly felt through the Force and not some cheap optical trick. That would be just silly, right? And the whole "the effort would kill you" thing doesn't figure into Kylo's assumed knowledge, either.
I don't care what the quantum mechanics is behind it. It has the dramatic and narrative effect of a cheap optical trick. It's his big exit scene and it doesn't even amount to "HAHAHAHAH you think this is the real Quaid? It is!"

Vympel wrote:No, better to just rail about holoprojectors like some aggressively obvious parody of the Comic Book store guy from the Simpsons. Jesus Christ - do you actually believe this pure undalterated childish horseshit? It's just embarassing at this point.
Yeah that's what I meant. I wanted for Kylo to say "this is a holoprojector". That would've saved that abortion of a scene. :roll:
The entire point of bringing up holoprojectors or force ghosts was to show how Kylo had to react in a certain manner for Luke's suicidal parlor trick to work. Of course actually having Kylo shout "it's them holoprojector gizmos" wouldn't have saved the scene. Jesus.

Vympel wrote:I'm not even sure what point this is supposed to have.
The point, which is quite obvious, is that the movie establishes that a powerful Force user can nonchalantly ragdoll a person from a completely separate location. Which, narratively, is precisely the "Speical Force Ball x10000" you complained about. In other words if Snoke can do that like it's nothing then certainly they could've had a scene where Luke physically affects the invading ground force as the ultimate self sacrificial display of Force.
The guy died of exertion doing a fucking "pick a card any card" trick. Oh but it took 13.9 million megawatts to project himself to the salt planet so it's actually impressive. Yeah sure.
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Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by Gunhead » 2018-12-02 04:33pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-12-01 02:55pm

I'd portray it more like "We don't need a standing army because we need to show a war-weary public and people who are afraid that we're a new Galactic Empire that we're different." Also, the Old Republic they were emulating had no standing army, and when it got one, that was the beginning of the end, and that army ended up being used to enact Order 66 and make Palpatine Emperor. So with that history, it makes sense.

Think of Articles of Confederation America- dysfunctional in the extreme, but it was so by design because the Founders had just overthrown one tyrant, and feared a strong central government. The US was fortunate in that it got that shit sorted out before it faced an external enemy capable of and willing to destroy it. The NR wasn't so fortunate.
Yea well, the lack of a standing army was what caused a lot of the problems for the OR in the first place. It basically allowed the TF to run amok without any meaningful ways to threaten them with actual military action. The thing is, that if the OR had maintained an army to counter all those backward dictators, there wouldn't have been a need to rush into rash actions to militarize the OR. So even if the TF would have mustered the balls to tackle the OR, something I find doubtful, Palpatines plan as it was wouldn't have worked or there at least would have been more checks in place making his plan to seize both political and military power harder.
Order 66 was just icing on the cake, by the time Palpatine gave it, he was already in charge of basically everything. It was a matter of convenience to wipe the jedi from existence, without it he would have had a harder time at it, but all things considered it would have just meant more jedi surviving but the jedi as an order would have been just as dead.
As to the NR emulating the old, well the situation they were in was one of continued warfare all around them, just because the Empire had fallen it doesn't mean there wasn't an assload of people willing to carve out their own little fiefdom from the remains, as usually does happen after any civil war and the only way to force them to give up their big bang bangs is force. So NR going all flower power is basically a stupid idea and would only happen by writer fiat.
I don't see either NR or OR being all that similar to the US, I've always thought of them more like the European Union with a sprinkling of UN put in because that's the only way the OR in particular having no armed forces under the direct control of the senate makes any sense. If OR was a highly centralized government, it would have needed to have some form of monopoly on the use of force because otherwise it would have faced incidents like the one caused by the TF every time someone decides to build up a military force and go coercing others to gain more power/wealth/resources.
This is the way I see it anyway.

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Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by Gandalf » 2018-12-02 04:33pm

FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-12-01 09:02pm
Pretty much what TRR said. With the special edition celebrations on multiple planets ending, it looked like the Empire was about to be on it's last legs due to either lack of popular support or lack of credible leadership, as Luke, Leia, and Han had defeated the leadership of the Empire and a sizable chunk of their military.

It was assumed that Luke would probably become some sort of Jedi teacher, Leia a political leader in whatever new government was coming, and Han's direction was more open, but would probably be on the side of the good guys, rather than being on the run again from people he owed money.
So the hints you mention are largely just assumptions? I get the end of Empire thing, though there's an amusing Fukuyama-esque thinking that this will just flick on the happily ever after button. But why would Luke become a Jedi teacher? He's got fuck all actual Jedi training and no educational qualifications of which to speak.

It seems that this has the same problem that the prequels did. Nearly two decades of fanon had emerged to fill in the gaps left by the films. Then the prequels matched nobody's expectations and everything went to hell.
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Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by Vympel » 2018-12-02 07:23pm

Kane Starkiller wrote:
2018-12-02 11:45am
Missed this one. No it fucking isn't. You think you can defend Luke's nonsensical change between Episode 6 and 8 with some vague appeal to other heroes in myth?
Yeah, I easily can, as the quote I provided setting out Rian Johnson's thinking in this regard sets out in quite a bit of detail. There's nothing vague about it.

As for it being 'nonsensical', there's nothing 'nonsensical' about someone at 60 having a very different outlook on life at the age of 20. It's just reality.
This is the person that witnessed someone that for decades was on the dark side doing evil and set in his ways of doing evil redeeming himself.

A person that witnessed the fall of Galactic Empire and was instrumental in bringing it down.
Who gives a shit? Luke didn't teach Vader. He wasn't entrusted with Vader's training and care with his friends. He didn't make a personal error for which he feels responsible. This is just totally irrelevant.
But sometime between Episode 6 and 7 he has some sort of panic attack that his nephew might become evil which then leads to comedy of errors sequence of events that causes Kylo to leave.
Ah yes, powerful preminitions of the future are just "lol panic attack". Really engaging with the material in good faith there, chief.
So now Luke that wouldn't give up on Vader decides to give up on his own nephew for whose fall he actually felt he was partially responsible. And just lets First Order increase its power over the years until it rules the galaxy again. And doesn't give a shit about what happens to his sister or Han Solo. And his first words to Chewbacca are "what are you doing here" after not seeing him for possibly a decade. I mean I never considered Chewbacca all that important of a character but come the fuck on. You can hug him and then ask him why he came here.
Oh no, Luke was unfriendly. Clearly he misses his friends, which is why he went ... to the middle of nowhere to be left alone?
:D I love how you first imply that the possibility of Kylo considering this to be a holoprojection is just me being too nerdy but then continue on to dismiss the idea because the TESB and ROTJ never "posited the existence of high-fidelity holo projector".
No shit, if I'm confronted with asinine hyper-granular nerdy bullshit based off of tiresome fridge logic in lieu of actual story-telling, I'll dismiss it in the same manner. What's wrong with this?
Yeah I'm just being way to nerdy about all of this. I mean they just unloaded their entire artillery to this guys face and there is not a scratch on him. I mean what kind of egghead would Kylo have to be to consider that this was some sort of illusion right? No one would've made that connection.
But let's say he's convinced, it's the heat of the moment. Quick question. What the hell is he doing going down there? Luke just absorbed a million AT-AT blaster bolts. What the fuck is he going to do with his shitty lightsaber? Luke is just going to grab it by the energy blade and beat him up with the hilt.
"It is clear this contest cannot be decided by our knowledge of the Force, but our skills with a lightsaber", probably. Ben has no idea how Luke survived that. His feelings about Luke are also not rational and informed by a deep personal hatred going back years. This is all organic to the script. This is basic-ass screenwriting 101.
I don't care what the quantum mechanics is behind it. It has the dramatic and narrative effect of a cheap optical trick. It's his big exit scene and it doesn't even amount to "HAHAHAHAH you think this is the real Quaid? It is!"
Of course you 'don't care', because that allows for ignoring all the groundwork laid throughout the film about this (again - screenwriting!) in favor of embarassing complaints based on "well if I was Kylo Ren I would never have been fooled, so clearly this is bad writing!"
Yeah that's what I meant. I wanted for Kylo to say "this is a holoprojector". That would've saved that abortion of a scene. :roll:
The entire point of bringing up holoprojectors or force ghosts was to show how Kylo had to react in a certain manner for Luke's suicidal parlor trick to work. Of course actually having Kylo shout "it's them holoprojector gizmos" wouldn't have saved the scene. Jesus.
What terrible writing that Kylo reacted in a manner entirely consistent with his character as seen in two films!
The point, which is quite obvious, is that the movie establishes that a powerful Force user can nonchalantly ragdoll a person from a completely separate location. Which, narratively, is precisely the "Speical Force Ball x10000" you complained about. In other words if Snoke can do that like it's nothing then certainly they could've had a scene where Luke physically affects the invading ground force as the ultimate self sacrificial display of Force.

The guy died of exertion doing a fucking "pick a card any card" trick. Oh but it took 13.9 million megawatts to project himself to the salt planet so it's actually impressive. Yeah sure.
Jesus Christ - Snoke is a villain. Him behaving in that way is entirely consistent with his character. It's entirely inconsistent with Luke's character.

Honestly, how obtuse do you have to be to respond to an argument based on Yoda's lessons on Jedi philosopgy and Luke's big moment in ROTJ about how Luke should act and go "but Snoke did it!"

Since the writer of the film has actual recognition and respect for Jedi ideals and non-violence which rests at the core of Yoda's lessons in TESB and Luke's triumph in ROTJ, he knew that this would be a self-indulgent and incongruous power fantasy that irreconcilably flies in the face of what Luke and his triumph at the end of ROTJ represents. It would be regression, not affirmation.

"Non-violence? Using the Force for knowledge and defence, never for attack? BAH! He should've just done something like what Snoke, an evil villain, did, that would've been AWESOME."

It's like you never actually got ROTJ's point at all. Worse, if Luke somehow used some super awesome Force power to "affect" the First Order ground force remotely then he wouldn't have seen Leia again, made the ending of the film and the re-ignition of Luke's legend (as seen with the childen re-enacting the final confrontation, complete with ersatz Luke action figures) impossible, given Kylo absolutely nothing to do with no meaningful interaction with Luke, and had zero drama or tension.

But yeah, despite all of those glaringly obvious narrative problems, Luke using some Snoke-like display of remote power on the entire First Order army for the sake of fan-service is a really good idea!
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Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-12-02 10:45pm

Gunhead wrote:
2018-12-02 04:33pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-12-01 02:55pm

I'd portray it more like "We don't need a standing army because we need to show a war-weary public and people who are afraid that we're a new Galactic Empire that we're different." Also, the Old Republic they were emulating had no standing army, and when it got one, that was the beginning of the end, and that army ended up being used to enact Order 66 and make Palpatine Emperor. So with that history, it makes sense.

Think of Articles of Confederation America- dysfunctional in the extreme, but it was so by design because the Founders had just overthrown one tyrant, and feared a strong central government. The US was fortunate in that it got that shit sorted out before it faced an external enemy capable of and willing to destroy it. The NR wasn't so fortunate.
Yea well, the lack of a standing army was what caused a lot of the problems for the OR in the first place. It basically allowed the TF to run amok without any meaningful ways to threaten them with actual military action. The thing is, that if the OR had maintained an army to counter all those backward dictators, there wouldn't have been a need to rush into rash actions to militarize the OR. So even if the TF would have mustered the balls to tackle the OR, something I find doubtful, Palpatines plan as it was wouldn't have worked or there at least would have been more checks in place making his plan to seize both political and military power harder.
Order 66 was just icing on the cake, by the time Palpatine gave it, he was already in charge of basically everything. It was a matter of convenience to wipe the jedi from existence, without it he would have had a harder time at it, but all things considered it would have just meant more jedi surviving but the jedi as an order would have been just as dead.
As to the NR emulating the old, well the situation they were in was one of continued warfare all around them, just because the Empire had fallen it doesn't mean there wasn't an assload of people willing to carve out their own little fiefdom from the remains, as usually does happen after any civil war and the only way to force them to give up their big bang bangs is force. So NR going all flower power is basically a stupid idea and would only happen by writer fiat.
I don't see either NR or OR being all that similar to the US, I've always thought of them more like the European Union with a sprinkling of UN put in because that's the only way the OR in particular having no armed forces under the direct control of the senate makes any sense. If OR was a highly centralized government, it would have needed to have some form of monopoly on the use of force because otherwise it would have faced incidents like the one caused by the TF every time someone decides to build up a military force and go coercing others to gain more power/wealth/resources.
This is the way I see it anyway.

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The OR got by for a thousand years without a standing army, apparently, and the problem would not have arisen if they had nipped private armies in the bud, before they grew large enough to threaten the whole galaxy. But the Republic relied very heavily on Jedi for its defence, to intercede before crises grew out of hand. The fundamental mistake of the NR, then, was trying to duplicate the OR model without the presence of a strong Jedi Order, or an equivalent substitute.

The moment Luke's new order died, they were fucked.
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Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by Gandalf » 2018-12-02 11:55pm

Also, I thought what stopped the Republic from reacting to the blockade at Naboo was the fact that their government just didn't function. Unless so much power rests with the Chancellor that Valorum could just deploy them at will, I doubt it would have changed much.
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Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by Kane Starkiller » 2018-12-03 05:52am

Vympel wrote:Yeah, I easily can, as the quote I provided setting out Rian Johnson's thinking in this regard sets out in quite a bit of detail. There's nothing vague about it.

As for it being 'nonsensical', there's nothing 'nonsensical' about someone at 60 having a very different outlook on life at the age of 20. It's just reality.
No you can't otherwise you wouldn't have to point to out of universe ramble by the director about King Arthur something something Beowulf something something. We are talking about Luke. What made Luke change and how it fits his character arc from the original trilogy. The answer is it doesn't.

Vympel wrote:Who gives a shit? Luke didn't teach Vader. He wasn't entrusted with Vader's training and care with his friends. He didn't make a personal error for which he feels responsible. This is just totally irrelevant.
Yes exactly. That is the point. He was intent on saving Vader even though he never really knew him and even though he wasn't responsible for his fall. But he gave up on the person he watched growing up and for whose fall he felt responsible? This change in Luke's character makes no sense. Oh yeah I know Beowulf something something, King Arthur, myth, etc.

Vympel wrote:Ah yes, powerful preminitions of the future are just "lol panic attack". Really engaging with the material in good faith there, chief.
Yes a panic attack, that's what it amounts to. He saw something that might be the future and then hysterically ignited his lightsaber but just then whoops Kylo woke up.

Vympel wrote:Oh no, Luke was unfriendly. Clearly he misses his friends, which is why he went ... to the middle of nowhere to be left alone?
Yeah dude I know he doesn't miss them or give a shit about them. That's kind of what I'm complaining about.

Vympel wrote:No shit, if I'm confronted with asinine hyper-granular nerdy bullshit based off of tiresome fridge logic in lieu of actual story-telling, I'll dismiss it in the same manner. What's wrong with this?
No you are confronted with mention of widespread technologies and concepts: holograms and force projections. You respond by complaining that we have never seen a 4K holoprojector and besides we don't know whether they have HDMI extension at the salt planet.

Vympel wrote:"It is clear this contest cannot be decided by our knowledge of the Force, but our skills with a lightsaber", probably. Ben has no idea how Luke survived that. His feelings about Luke are also not rational and informed by a deep personal hatred going back years. This is all organic to the script. This is basic-ass screenwriting 101.
But Dooku only says that after fighting Yoda and knowing for sure that their Force abilities are roughly evenly matched. What on Earth would make Kylo think he can stand up to Luke after that display? He hated him so it was organic? What if his lighstaber was destroyed on Snoke's ship? Would he run at Luke with his bare hands because he's very very angry?

Vypmpel wrote:Of course you 'don't care', because that allows for ignoring all the groundwork laid throughout the film about this (again - screenwriting!) in favor of embarassing complaints based on "well if I was Kylo Ren I would never have been fooled, so clearly this is bad writing!"
Wait a minute. How does all this help your case? The fact that Kylo and Rey spent so much time communicating with each other would only serve to put Kylo in the "projection and telepathy" headpsace and would make it even more likely to think about projections and illusions when facing Luke. There is even a scene where Rey shoots Kylo "through the stomach" with a blaster during one of their sessions. So now that Luke has survived all those blaster bolts...
But no it's really Luke, he can deflect heavy blaster bolts like it's nothing let me run down there and do...what exactly?
Again naratively it's an optical trick and nothing more. The moment Kylo figured it out Luke was useless.

Vympel wrote:What terrible writing that Kylo reacted in a manner entirely consistent with his character as seen in two films!
You can be impulsive and still have a sense of reality. You can punch a guy if he looks at you the wrong way and still not jump into a tiger's cage because it roared at you as you passed by.

Vympel wrote:Jesus Christ - Snoke is a villain. Him behaving in that way is entirely consistent with his character. It's entirely inconsistent with Luke's character.

Honestly, how obtuse do you have to be to respond to an argument based on Yoda's lessons on Jedi philosopgy and Luke's big moment in ROTJ about how Luke should act and go "but Snoke did it!"

Since the writer of the film has actual recognition and respect for Jedi ideals and non-violence which rests at the core of Yoda's lessons in TESB and Luke's triumph in ROTJ, he knew that this would be a self-indulgent and incongruous power fantasy that irreconcilably flies in the face of what Luke and his triumph at the end of ROTJ represents. It would be regression, not affirmation.

"Non-violence? Using the Force for knowledge and defence, never for attack? BAH! He should've just done something like what Snoke, an evil villain, did, that would've been AWESOME."

It's like you never actually got ROTJ's point at all. Worse, if Luke somehow used some super awesome Force power to "affect" the First Order ground force remotely then he wouldn't have seen Leia again, made the ending of the film and the re-ignition of Luke's legend (as seen with the childen re-enacting the final confrontation, complete with ersatz Luke action figures) impossible, given Kylo absolutely nothing to do with no meaningful interaction with Luke, and had zero drama or tension.

But yeah, despite all of those glaringly obvious narrative problems, Luke using some Snoke-like display of remote power on the entire First Order army for the sake of fan-service is a really good idea!
What on God's green Earth are you talking about? I mentioned Snokes attack on Hux as an example of a Force user physically affecting others over great distances. Of course it wouldn't do to show Luke using the Force to smash people around the way Snoke did. The point is that showing Luke physically affecting the attacking forces as the ultimate display of Force before he dies wouldn't be outside of what the movie has already shown in terms of ABILITIES NOT CHARACTERIZATION.
Trying to stop the First Order from destroying the Resistance is defense isn't it? He doesn't have to use the Force do pop out Hux's eyeballs for God's sake there is plenty of room for him to do something real.
I mean really, he couldn't even be assed to come to the planet in person. He literally phoned it in.
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Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-12-03 11:23am

Gandalf wrote:
2018-12-02 04:33pm
FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-12-01 09:02pm
Pretty much what TRR said. With the special edition celebrations on multiple planets ending, it looked like the Empire was about to be on it's last legs due to either lack of popular support or lack of credible leadership, as Luke, Leia, and Han had defeated the leadership of the Empire and a sizable chunk of their military.

It was assumed that Luke would probably become some sort of Jedi teacher, Leia a political leader in whatever new government was coming, and Han's direction was more open, but would probably be on the side of the good guys, rather than being on the run again from people he owed money.
So the hints you mention are largely just assumptions? I get the end of Empire thing, though there's an amusing Fukuyama-esque thinking that this will just flick on the happily ever after button. But why would Luke become a Jedi teacher? He's got fuck all actual Jedi training and no educational qualifications of which to speak.

It seems that this has the same problem that the prequels did. Nearly two decades of fanon had emerged to fill in the gaps left by the films. Then the prequels matched nobody's expectations and everything went to hell.
Well, yes, I'm sure the possibility exists that Luke just becomes King of the Mountain regarding the force, by remaining the only one until he dies of old age. But since, 'there is another', I'm sure Luke might want to do *something* with it.

And considering the movie ends with a party, full of Ewoks celebrating with Imperial helmets as percussion instruments, I'm pretty sure we're supposed to take this as the 'happily ever after' intent. We could say that the Endor Holocaust happened and the Ewoks are going to become an endangered species in the next 12 hours, but I'm sure that they were going more for a 'happily ever after' intent with the ending.
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Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-12-03 01:16pm

Gandalf wrote:
2018-12-02 04:33pm
FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-12-01 09:02pm
Pretty much what TRR said. With the special edition celebrations on multiple planets ending, it looked like the Empire was about to be on it's last legs due to either lack of popular support or lack of credible leadership, as Luke, Leia, and Han had defeated the leadership of the Empire and a sizable chunk of their military.

It was assumed that Luke would probably become some sort of Jedi teacher, Leia a political leader in whatever new government was coming, and Han's direction was more open, but would probably be on the side of the good guys, rather than being on the run again from people he owed money.
So the hints you mention are largely just assumptions? I get the end of Empire thing, though there's an amusing Fukuyama-esque thinking that this will just flick on the happily ever after button. But why would Luke become a Jedi teacher? He's got fuck all actual Jedi training and no educational qualifications of which to speak.
Luke says Leia will learn to use the Force in RotJ. Since self-taught Jedi aren't really a thing, and there was no one else (in the films anyway) left to teach her, the logical inference is that Luke will train Leia. Yoda also tells Luke to "pass on what you have learned" IIRC.

The thing is... everything RotJ set up as happening next happened in the Sequels, more or less. Its just that it mostly happened off-screen, in between the films, and so that leaves people feeling dissatisfied.
It seems that this has the same problem that the prequels did. Nearly two decades of fanon had emerged to fill in the gaps left by the films. Then the prequels matched nobody's expectations and everything went to hell.
There's a lot of truth to this as well. Every fan had had decades to build up expectations in their heads, and imagine their idea of the perfect movie. Reality would inevitably be different, because it would be impossible even if they wanted to for any filmmaker to exactly match any one fan's vision, never mind match every fan's vision- and thus are born the cries of "Its ruined", because people equate "its not the film I imagined" with "its a bad film".
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Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by Elheru Aran » 2018-12-03 02:35pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-12-03 01:16pm
The thing is... everything RotJ set up as happening next happened in the Sequels, more or less. Its just that it mostly happened off-screen, in between the films, and so that leaves people feeling dissatisfied.
So while this is somewhat tangential to 'fan theories for episode 9', how would you have done the transition from ROTJ to TFA?

Because like... ANH doesn't have any transition from ROTS. Which, I mean, okay, it was made like 30ish years before ROTS came out, there's pretty much no way in hell ol' George could have done it without one heck of a big Time-Turner. Or if you want to be more generationally appropriate, the George Pal time machine... anyway. But honestly if you compare the historical references in ANH to TFA, ANH actually didn't really tell us much more about its past; TFA might actually have said a lot more. About all you get is that Luke's daddy Anakin was a hotshot pilot and a Jedi, that he was Obi-wan's friend, that Vader killed him, and that there was a "Clone War", people don't like droids for some reason, and the Empire has been around for awhile... that's pretty much it.

To be quite fair the social milieu for TFA versus ANH is vastly different-- TFA was coming into a world that's had thirty-odd years of Star Wars under its belt. There was a vast amount of expectation and entitlement built into it before it even aired.

On the other hand, say you film a twenty-minute short movie, 'All That's Happened since The Jedi Returned', and stick it on the fore-end of TFA, maybe before the opening crawl even, or immediately after. Narratively, it might help a lot of people catch up. But on the other hand, would it really mesh well with the movie? Not to say that an extended flashback along those lines would fit well into the general mold of Star Wars movies, either-- they don't tend to indulge in such.

Alternatively, you could have some characters infodump during the movie, but how well would that work? Say that instead of sending Poe and Finn crashing to Jakku, their TIE is disabled and spends a while de-orbiting. Finn: "What the hell happened", Poe: "I dunno, check the reverse polarizer thingamajig, and you could say it all started with Snoke blah blah" and so forth. You get the idea. But that would require some care to not disrupt the flow of the film excessively-- infodumps work (to a degree) in text because people can just flip a few pages ahead if they know it already, but you can't do that in a movie theater.
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Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-12-03 02:59pm

Elheru Aran wrote:
2018-12-03 02:35pm
Alternatively, you could have some characters infodump during the movie, but how well would that work? Say that instead of sending Poe and Finn crashing to Jakku, their TIE is disabled and spends a while de-orbiting. Finn: "What the hell happened", Poe: "I dunno, check the reverse polarizer thingamajig, and you could say it all started with Snoke blah blah" and so forth. You get the idea. But that would require some care to not disrupt the flow of the film excessively-- infodumps work (to a degree) in text because people can just flip a few pages ahead if they know it already, but you can't do that in a movie theater.
Remember, we still had Tarkin establish to the other Moffs what the stakes of the Death Star were, how this fit into the galatic scale of things, and what it did to the Senate. A scene of Leia arguing with New Republic leadership over holograph right before the Starkiller attack would have done wonders.
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Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-12-03 03:01pm

Elheru Aran wrote:
2018-12-03 02:35pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-12-03 01:16pm
The thing is... everything RotJ set up as happening next happened in the Sequels, more or less. Its just that it mostly happened off-screen, in between the films, and so that leaves people feeling dissatisfied.
So while this is somewhat tangential to 'fan theories for episode 9', how would you have done the transition from ROTJ to TFA?

Because like... ANH doesn't have any transition from ROTS. Which, I mean, okay, it was made like 30ish years before ROTS came out, there's pretty much no way in hell ol' George could have done it without one heck of a big Time-Turner. Or if you want to be more generationally appropriate, the George Pal time machine... anyway. But honestly if you compare the historical references in ANH to TFA, ANH actually didn't really tell us much more about its past; TFA might actually have said a lot more. About all you get is that Luke's daddy Anakin was a hotshot pilot and a Jedi, that he was Obi-wan's friend, that Vader killed him, and that there was a "Clone War", people don't like droids for some reason, and the Empire has been around for awhile... that's pretty much it.

To be quite fair the social milieu for TFA versus ANH is vastly different-- TFA was coming into a world that's had thirty-odd years of Star Wars under its belt. There was a vast amount of expectation and entitlement built into it before it even aired.

On the other hand, say you film a twenty-minute short movie, 'All That's Happened since The Jedi Returned', and stick it on the fore-end of TFA, maybe before the opening crawl even, or immediately after. Narratively, it might help a lot of people catch up. But on the other hand, would it really mesh well with the movie? Not to say that an extended flashback along those lines would fit well into the general mold of Star Wars movies, either-- they don't tend to indulge in such.

Alternatively, you could have some characters infodump during the movie, but how well would that work? Say that instead of sending Poe and Finn crashing to Jakku, their TIE is disabled and spends a while de-orbiting. Finn: "What the hell happened", Poe: "I dunno, check the reverse polarizer thingamajig, and you could say it all started with Snoke blah blah" and so forth. You get the idea. But that would require some care to not disrupt the flow of the film excessively-- infodumps work (to a degree) in text because people can just flip a few pages ahead if they know it already, but you can't do that in a movie theater.
I don't think its entirely something you can fix. Like you said, people have had decades to build up nostalgia and expectations and fan-entitlement, and there is a large contingent of Star Wars fans who will be inclined to hate any post-OT film simply for not being the movie in their heads.

But I do think that seeing a bit more of the interim period would be good, because unlike the Prequels, where we pretty much know what comes after already, the Sequels had to contend with certain things being foreshadowed, but never actually shown before.

A direct follow-on from RotJ would be hard to do, due to aging cast, but they could have had the first movie be the story of the fall of Luke's Order/the NR. That might feel like rehashing the Prequels, though, and would never have happened, since TFA's First Order of business (pun intended) was pretty obviously to appease angry OT fans who hated the Prequels. It also would have been a pretty dark note to start the new Star Wars trilogy on.

I'd have gone for more flashback scenes, myself. Which is a break from past Star Wars films, but I think it would have helped to show some more of what happened between the trilogies. Or alternately, do what Doctor Who did before the 50th. anniversary special, and release a couple of short web movies to tie into the main film.
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Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by Elheru Aran » 2018-12-03 06:31pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-12-03 03:01pm
Or alternately, do what Doctor Who did before the 50th. anniversary special, and release a couple of short web movies to tie into the main film.
Eh. That's mostly going to appeal to the fanbase, which would be kind of a waste of time because that's basically a built-in audience, unless it's promoted and pushed the same way as a major feature film is.

I do think having a bit more exposition in the dialogue as the movie went along would have helped considerably. As Fax noted, a scene of Leia arguing with NR politicians via holo would have been helpful along the lines of the Death Star briefing-room scene. Comments along the lines of... mmm... Finn and Rey flying over Jakku as they try to make a getaway, "wow, why are all these ships crashed on this planet?" "Well, that was the last big battle of the Empire against the Republic, they all came down here and the Empire lost, the Republic didn't have enough money or time to pick up after themselves" and so forth. Explain stuff that's in the background as you move the plot along.
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Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-12-03 06:47pm

The four big points they needed to hit and didn't, in my opinion:

1. Snoke's backstory. I don't personally think its necessary that he needs an elaborate origin story any more than Palpatine did, but it seemed to bother a lot of people, and he isn't part of the Sith, so... I'd have dropped a couple lines about him being an Imperial Inquisitor under Vader. Or shown him in Rebels.

2. An NR political scene or two, showing why they won't fight, and Leia's efforts to get more NR help. It would also lend more weight to their destruction, if done right.

3. A Han/Luke/Leia reunion on-screen, even if only in flashback.

4. Only semi-related, some sort of clear positive legacy for the OT heroes- If we keep Rey as no one and Kylo as irredeemable, then focus more on Leia as a mentor to Poe (and possibly Rey). Or Leia as mentor to Poe, and Luke to Rey. Even if its only Rey learning from Luke's mistakes, to keep with the theme of leaving the past behind.
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Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by Gandalf » 2018-12-03 06:51pm

Why does Snoke need a backstory? Palpatine didn't have one in Jedi and we all seemed cool with it.
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Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-12-03 06:53pm

I agree. But I think it might have helped the film's reputation a little to have one.
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Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by Batman » 2018-12-03 07:08pm

The OT existed in a vacuum. The ST does NOT. And while I think the ST in no way needs to provide all that unseen backstory to work, it wouldn't have hurt to have it.
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