Kane Starkiller wrote: ↑
Missed this one. No it fucking isn't. You think you can defend Luke's nonsensical change between Episode 6 and 8 with some vague appeal to other heroes in myth?
Yeah, I easily can, as the quote I provided setting out Rian Johnson's thinking in this regard sets out in quite a bit of detail. There's nothing vague about it.
As for it being 'nonsensical', there's nothing 'nonsensical' about someone at 60 having a very different outlook on life at the age of 20. It's just reality.
This is the person that witnessed someone that for decades was on the dark side doing evil and set in his ways of doing evil redeeming himself.
A person that witnessed the fall of Galactic Empire and was instrumental in bringing it down.
Who gives a shit? Luke didn't teach Vader. He wasn't entrusted with Vader's training and care with his friends. He didn't make a personal error for which he feels responsible. This is just totally irrelevant.
But sometime between Episode 6 and 7 he has some sort of panic attack that his nephew might become evil which then leads to comedy of errors sequence of events that causes Kylo to leave.
Ah yes, powerful preminitions of the future are just "lol panic attack". Really engaging with the material in good faith there, chief.
So now Luke that wouldn't give up on Vader decides to give up on his own nephew for whose fall he actually felt he was partially responsible. And just lets First Order increase its power over the years until it rules the galaxy again. And doesn't give a shit about what happens to his sister or Han Solo. And his first words to Chewbacca are "what are you doing here" after not seeing him for possibly a decade. I mean I never considered Chewbacca all that important of a character but come the fuck on. You can hug him and then ask him why he came here.
Oh no, Luke was unfriendly. Clearly he misses his friends, which is why he went ... to the middle of nowhere to be left alone?
I love how you first imply that the possibility of Kylo considering this to be a holoprojection is just me being too nerdy but then continue on to dismiss the idea because the TESB and ROTJ never "posited the existence of high-fidelity holo projector".
No shit, if I'm confronted with asinine hyper-granular nerdy bullshit based off of tiresome fridge logic in lieu of actual story-telling, I'll dismiss it in the same manner. What's wrong with this?
Yeah I'm just being way to nerdy about all of this. I mean they just unloaded their entire artillery to this guys face and there is not a scratch on him. I mean what kind of egghead would Kylo have to be to consider that this was some sort of illusion right? No one would've made that connection.
But let's say he's convinced, it's the heat of the moment. Quick question. What the hell is he doing going down there? Luke just absorbed a million AT-AT blaster bolts. What the fuck is he going to do with his shitty lightsaber? Luke is just going to grab it by the energy blade and beat him up with the hilt.
"It is clear this contest cannot be decided by our knowledge of the Force, but our skills with a lightsaber", probably. Ben has no idea how Luke survived that. His feelings about Luke are also not rational
and informed by a deep personal hatred going back years. This is all organic to the script. This is basic-ass screenwriting 101.
I don't care what the quantum mechanics is behind it. It has the dramatic and narrative effect of a cheap optical trick. It's his big exit scene and it doesn't even amount to "HAHAHAHAH you think this is the real Quaid? It is!"
Of course you 'don't care', because that allows for ignoring all the groundwork laid throughout the film about this (again - screenwriting!) in favor of embarassing complaints based on "well if I
was Kylo Ren I would never have been fooled, so clearly this is bad writing!"
Yeah that's what I meant. I wanted for Kylo to say "this is a holoprojector". That would've saved that abortion of a scene.
The entire point of bringing up holoprojectors or force ghosts was to show how Kylo had to react in a certain manner for Luke's suicidal parlor trick to work. Of course actually having Kylo shout "it's them holoprojector gizmos" wouldn't have saved the scene. Jesus.
What terrible writing that Kylo reacted in a manner entirely consistent with his character as seen in two films!
The point, which is quite obvious, is that the movie establishes that a powerful Force user can nonchalantly ragdoll a person from a completely separate location. Which, narratively, is precisely the "Speical Force Ball x10000" you complained about. In other words if Snoke can do that like it's nothing then certainly they could've had a scene where Luke physically affects the invading ground force as the ultimate self sacrificial display of Force.
The guy died of exertion doing a fucking "pick a card any card" trick. Oh but it took 13.9 million megawatts to project himself to the salt planet so it's actually impressive. Yeah sure.
Jesus Christ - Snoke is a villain. Him behaving in that way is entirely consistent with his character. It's entirely inconsistent
with Luke's character.
Honestly, how obtuse do you have to be to respond to an argument based on Yoda's
lessons on Jedi philosopgy and Luke's
big moment in ROTJ about how Luke should act and go "but Snoke did it!"
Since the writer of the film has actual recognition and respect for Jedi ideals and non-violence which rests at the core of Yoda's lessons in TESB and Luke's triumph in ROTJ, he knew that this would be a self-indulgent and incongruous power fantasy that irreconcilably flies in the face of what Luke and his triumph at the end of ROTJ represents. It would be regression, not affirmation.
"Non-violence? Using the Force for knowledge and defence, never for attack? BAH! He should've just done something like what Snoke, an evil villain
, did, that would've been AWESOME."
It's like you never actually got ROTJ's point at all. Worse, if Luke somehow used some super awesome Force power to "affect" the First Order ground force remotely then he wouldn't have seen Leia again, made the ending of the film and the re-ignition of Luke's legend (as seen with the childen re-enacting the final confrontation, complete with ersatz Luke action figures) impossible, given Kylo absolutely nothing to do with no meaningful interaction with Luke, and had zero drama or tension.
But yeah, despite all of those glaringly obvious narrative problems, Luke using some Snoke-like display of remote power on the entire First Order army for the sake of fan-service is a really good idea!