Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

PSW: discuss Star Wars without "versus" arguments.

Moderator: Vympel

Post Reply
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15672
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-11-23 03:40am

https://www.denofgeek.com/us/movies/sta ... n-theories
This article contains spoilers for Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Christmas is going to feel weird this year without a Star Wars movie in theatres. Ever since J.J. Abrams reignited the Skywalker saga in 2015 with The Force Awakens, the Star Wars universe has been in a constant state of flux. Initial plans for a dozen different movies have since been changed for a slightly less explosive approach to world (re)building, with spin-off movies swapped for TV shows and future trilogy news going quiet.

All eyes are currently on what the future holds for Star Wars after Episode IX, but we’ve still got a year to wait before that film even comes out. Set to tie-up more than 40 year’s worth of plot lines, Abrams’ third trilogy closer will likely finish the story that George Lucas started telling in 1977. A lot of the original characters have already finished their arcs in Episodes VII and VIII, but there’s still plenty of ground left to cover in the finale.

What exactly will happen in Episode IX? Here are some of the best and worst fan theories circling the web at the moment, but please let us know if you’ve got your own ideas and we’ll add them to the list!

The following might just contain Star Wars: Episode IX spoilers...


Kylo Ren becomes the good guy

After helping Rey defeat Snoke in The Last Jedi, Kylo Ren remembers who he really is – and spends most of Episode IX as Ben Solo. There’s even going to be a scene where he flies the Millennium Falcon and sits next to Chewie and Lando, exchanging witty banter.

Likelihood: Unlikely. While The Last Jedi did start Ren down the path to redemption, he still finished the film in a fairly dark place. What’s more, the bigger theme of the new trilogy seems to be all about disproving the whole good and evil thing – with Rey and Kylo both showing signs of a slightly more blurred (and a slightly more realistic) morality. While the off-screen death of his mother could tip Kylo a bit closer to Solo, too much effort has already gone into building him up as the villain to suddenly have him turning hero in the last film. That said, it’s also pretty unlikely that he won’t reject the dark side at some point (à la Vader in the closing scenes of Return Of The Jedi), but it’s more likely to be right at the end than halfway through.


General Hux will be the big baddie

After finding out what really happened to Snoke, Hux will take over the leadership of the First Order and remove Kylo Ren from power – becoming the main antagonist of Episode IX.

Likelihood: Very unlikely. This one really hangs on the theory that Kylo turns good early on in Episode IX (see above), but it also presumes that Hux is much stronger (and far less simpering) than he’s been so far. If the good guys have Rey and Kylo on their side, and the bad guys just have Hux, it’s going to be a pretty uneven fight. Lightsaber beats blaster, every time.


Richard E. Grant will play Grand Admiral Thrawn

Richard E Grant has categorically said that he’s not playing Thrawn, but he’s lying.

Likelihood: Very unlikely. A lot of fans want this to happen – mostly because Thrawn is such a great character, and also because Grant would be perfect for the role – but it’s not likely to happen. The character was introduced in Timothy Zahn’s 1991 novel, Heir To The Empire, which was later made non-canon. Thrawn did turn up in Star Wars Rebels, but having him reappear in Episode IX would require a lot of explaining (where has he been for the last two films?) as well as a lot of backstory filler for all the audience that hasn’t been following the expanded universe. Still, Richard E. Grant is likely to be some kind of new baddie (because he sounds posh and British). Also, Solo’s big last act reveal proved that Disney isn’t opposed to completely confusing half the audience who might not have seen the animated TV shows.


Snoke’s other apprentice will turn up

Kylo Ren was only one of the apprentices he was training, and one of the others will turn up to avenge his death in Episode IX. Always two there are.

Likelihood: Possible. This rumor all seems to come from a souvenir issue of the Star Wars Insider Magazine (an official Lucasfilm publication), which mentioned that Snoke trained Kylo Ren and “at least one other apprentice”. It could just be a bit of journalistic waffle, or it could be the clue to an official story strand that didn’t make it into The Last Jedi but that could resurface in Episode IX. Bringing in another Force-wielding bad guy would also make Kylo Ren’s early redemption seem even more likely (since he’d likely be the one fighting him or her). While the series is now lacking a big villain, it might seem a bit odd to suddenly introduce a new one at this stage. There's also the tease of the Knights Of Ren to think about...


The Millennium Falcon will die

Each of the other recent chapters has killed off something the old fans love, and there’s only really Chewie and Lando left now. No one has the balls to kill off Chewie, and no one really cares that much about Lando, so the only thing that’s going to sting now is watching Han’s old ship burst into a ball of flames.

Likelihood: Possible. Episode IX will almost certainly mark the end of the Skywalker saga, and Abrams will need to do something to give the old fans a bitter emotional kick. Handling Princess Leia’s death on screen might prove too sensitive, so sending the Falcon off in style could be a nice (deeply upsetting) nod to the legacy of the original trilogy. Knowing how some of the fans react to literally everything in the new films though, this one definitely won’t be popular.


Darth Vader will come back as a ghost

Anakin Skywalker will reappear as a Force ghost – giving Kylo Ren some tough love right when he needs it the most.

Likelihood: Likely. This one seems like it’s bound to happen. With so many links to the original trilogy now severed, bringing back the star of the first six movies, even briefly, will be a neat way of tying everything together. We already know that Kylo idolizes his grandfather, even if he is all about killing the past now, so a timely visit from Anakin (presumably the old man version) could prove decisive in his redemption – as well as adding weight to the bigger arc that covers all nine films. There’s also a good chance that we’ll see some other Force ghosts in Episode IX – probably at the finale – with Yoda, Obi Wan, and Luke all likely to reappear.


Rey actually does have important parents

Kylo Ren was lying. Rey does have a royal lineage and she is related to someone important – most likely Luke.

Likelihood: Very unlikely. A lot of angry fans really, really want this to happen but the chance of Abrams undoing everything in the last film just to please a few message boards is incredibly unlikely. The big reveal about Rey’s parents in The Last Jedi was an important twist in the Star Wars universe – a flip on the one at the end of The Empire Strikes Back. The idea that a hero doesn't have to be born into greatness is also an important message for the new trilogy, so backtracking over it now just isn’t an option.


Rey killed her parents

When Kylo told Rey about her parents in The Last Jedi, he said “they’re dead in the Jakku desert." According to one Reddit poster they died in the ship that little Rey watched leaving in the flashbacks – and her dark side anger and sadness helped to pull it back down to the ground. She repressed it, Kylo wormed it out of her, and the resurfacing tragedy will be a big part of her battle to stay in the light.


Likelihood: Likely. This one is plausible for a few reasons. Firstly, it adds weight to the controversial parentage reveal in The Last Jedi – giving Rey’s backstory a lot more heft without contradicting the idea that she didn’t have a famous mum and dad. Also, making Rey responsible for something so awful adds a lot of interesting shade to her character – blurring the light side/dark side divide and playing into the whole “balance” thing with wherever Kylo is heading next.
I'm ambivalent to or even supportive of these, but I really hope they're wrong about the last one (and I think the evidence is pretty flimsy). It comes across as an attempt to inject edgy morally-relativist grim dark shit into the franchise.

I also think it would be a mistake to make Rey have a "special" heritage at this point. She's no one.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals William T. Sherman and Ulysses S Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the United States and Canada.


Fuck Civility.

User avatar
Lord Revan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10999
Joined: 2004-05-20 02:23pm
Location: Zone:classified

Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by Lord Revan » 2018-11-23 01:16pm

I'm always rather vary of fan theories, as they're most likely influenced more by the biases of the fan(s) in question then any realistic predictions/evidence. I'm not saying they're always gonna be false but they're more likely to be false then to not be.

There's technically nothing wrong with darker movies being in SW but you have to do it with care of you end up with something no-one likes.
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n

User avatar
FaxModem1
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 6759
Joined: 2002-10-30 06:40pm
Location: In a dark reflection of a better world

Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-11-23 01:22pm

Whoever is writing Episode XI will have to do a lot of infodumping to make the story coherent, as VII and VIII both were light on the details of what's going on, while contradicting each other in what came before. At the same time, the deck has been cleared so much that they can go wherever they really want to go in regards to the Star Wars universe, as so many of the main characters and power players (Luke, Han, Snoke, the Empire, the New Republic) are dead, with the surviving main character(Leia) having lost her actress, and the surviving characters seeming to not be that important.(if we're supposed to take General Hux as the main bad guy, it will require quite a great leap from the audience)

This is probably on a certain level intentional for Disney, as they'll have a universe that they can tell whatever sort of stories they want to tell with it, and can keep the story going for a while.

Especially compared to what the article thinks this is, which is supposed to be the end of the entire saga. Which it can't be, as this story hasn't been interested in tying up threads from the previous trilogies, just aping certain aspects of the old ones while subverting parts of the original trilogy.



MY FAN THEORY
Maybe they can end it the same way JJ Abrams ended a previous work he actually finished instead of walking away from: The entire series was all a dream.....



So, just expect Leia to wake up in bed before the entire trilogy started with a really bad nightmare of what came and setting things right.

That's my fan theory anyway, due to it being the only ending JJ Abrams has actually ever made.


That, or more realistically, JJ Abrams in a mad panic, kicks the can narratively down the road so that the makers of Episode X can deal with all the crap that's been piling up since Episode VII and hasn't been dealt with.
Image

User avatar
Vympel
Spetsnaz
Spetsnaz
Posts: 28934
Joined: 2002-07-19 01:08am
Location: Sydney Australia

Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by Vympel » 2018-11-25 06:51pm

FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-11-23 01:22pm
Whoever is writing Episode XI will have to do a lot of infodumping to make the story coherent, as VII and VIII both were light on the details of what's going on, while contradicting each other in what came before.
How do VII and VIII contradict each other?

In any event, the idea that Hux is going to be the main bad guy is absurd etc. As with most fan theories, they bear little resemblance to anything we would recognise as a film, let alone a Star Wars film.
Like Legend of Galactic Heroes? Please contribute to http://gineipaedia.com/

User avatar
FaxModem1
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 6759
Joined: 2002-10-30 06:40pm
Location: In a dark reflection of a better world

Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-11-26 12:10am

Vympel wrote:
2018-11-25 06:51pm
FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-11-23 01:22pm
Whoever is writing Episode XI will have to do a lot of infodumping to make the story coherent, as VII and VIII both were light on the details of what's going on, while contradicting each other in what came before.
How do VII and VIII contradict each other?
Minor things, why did Luke make a map to his location and give it to people if he planned to die alone and forgotten?

What are the Knights if Ren? Where are they? In VII, they helped destroy the temple, in VIII, Kylo/Ben acted alone.

In VII, the Resistance fleet is stated as only a few fighters. In VIII, the fleet is at least three capital ships with bombers.(a positive change in difference)

And there's where they contradict the OT, unless you read the novels. Things such as how the Empire's status, the New Republic's status as a nation, where Snoke acquired all his fancy gear and people, who he was, etc.
Image

User avatar
Batman
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15313
Joined: 2002-07-09 04:51am
Location: 'Very' mildly hopeful now DC recognized taking Clark's red trunks away was a bad idea
Contact:

Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by Batman » 2018-11-26 12:27am

When exactly is it actually stated that the Resistance only has a handful of fighters in Episode VII? They're all we're shown, that's all. At worst they leave us with a lot of unknowns. Lack of explanation does not equal contradiction
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15672
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-11-26 02:08am

FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-11-26 12:10am
Vympel wrote:
2018-11-25 06:51pm
FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-11-23 01:22pm
Whoever is writing Episode XI will have to do a lot of infodumping to make the story coherent, as VII and VIII both were light on the details of what's going on, while contradicting each other in what came before.
How do VII and VIII contradict each other?
Minor things, why did Luke make a map to his location and give it to people if he planned to die alone and forgotten?

What are the Knights if Ren? Where are they? In VII, they helped destroy the temple, in VIII, Kylo/Ben acted alone.

In VII, the Resistance fleet is stated as only a few fighters. In VIII, the fleet is at least three capital ships with bombers.(a positive change in difference)

And there's where they contradict the OT, unless you read the novels. Things such as how the Empire's status, the New Republic's status as a nation, where Snoke acquired all his fancy gear and people, who he was, etc.
Well, that's the thing- they're all minor, when they're even real contradictions.

First point: Probably mixed feelings, and not wanting to completely sever ties with his only remaining relation.

Second Point: Zero contradiction at all, actually. There is a single shot in TFA vaguely suggesting that they destroyed the temple. In TLJ, we see the beginning of the slaughter (presuming you believe either Luke or Kylo's version is true), with Kylo attacking Luke. We are told that he then killed the rest of the students, except those who joined him (as I recall). Likely explanation is that Kylo went into the temple after attacking Luke, told everyone his version of what happened, and gave them the "join me or die" speech. The ones who joined lived, the ones who didn't were slaughtered (By the way, one of my head cannons for the Sequels is that Mara Jade was one of Luke's students, that she was one of the ones who fought Kylo and died, and that part of the reason Luke was so afraid of Kylo falling, and so guilt-ridden when he did, is that his lover was one of the dead).

Third Point: Again, not really a contradiction. Nowhere is it stated in TFA, to my knowledge. As to why the capital ships weren't present- maybe the same reason they weren't at Yavin? Because they'd be useless liabilities for that particular mission, and were sensibly deployed elsewhere at the time? If this is a contradiction such that it requires a massive info dump or retcon to fix, then Empire Strikes Back was an awful film, because it pulled a Rebel Frigate out of nowhere at the end of the film.

And I reiterate my view that everyone should watch TLJ again, no matter how much you hated it the first time. Because the film relies heavily on misdirection and ambiguity, there are a lot of subtle little details, and I think a lot of people miss things the first time around. You could argue that that's a flaw of the film, but it is a movie that rewards a second viewing.

As to the claims of contradictions to the OT- Batman is right. Not explaining something isn't always optimal, but its not the same as a contradiction. None of those things contradict anything shown or described on-screen in the OT.

Also... no offence, but anyone who thinks they'd actually retcon and entire billion-dollar trilogy as "it was all just a dream" is nuts. And if they did do that, I'd boycott the franchise, because it would show profound disrespect to everyone who worked on the Sequels, and would be a Neon signal proclaiming to all "Our sole mandate is now to pander to butt-hurt OT fanboys, and continuity will be thrown out the window every time a film isn't well-received".

Mind you, I think the idea that it doesn't get wrapped up in IX is looking more and more plausible. And after all, there's no reason but tradition why they have to tie everything up in a trilogy. We know there will be more films. The new leads are young. They could easily move to more of an MCU model with an arc spanning a couple dozen interconnected films, if they were willing to expand their universe beyond the small core group and a single main storyline.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals William T. Sherman and Ulysses S Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the United States and Canada.


Fuck Civility.

User avatar
FaxModem1
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 6759
Joined: 2002-10-30 06:40pm
Location: In a dark reflection of a better world

Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-11-26 03:37am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-11-26 02:08am
Also... no offence, but anyone who thinks they'd actually retcon and entire billion-dollar trilogy as "it was all just a dream" is nuts. And if they did do that, I'd boycott the franchise, because it would show profound disrespect to everyone who worked on the Sequels, and would be a Neon signal proclaiming to all "Our sole mandate is now to pander to butt-hurt OT fanboys, and continuity will be thrown out the window every time a film isn't well-received".
Yeah, this was a joke. Mostly it was commenting on how JJ Abrams can't finish a story to save his life, and runs away to another project as fast as he can. Even a project he was forced to finish the story to, Felicity, had to invoke time travel to the beginning of the story in order for it to be an ending JJ Abrams was comfortable making.

IE, not an ending at all.
Mind you, I think the idea that it doesn't get wrapped up in IX is looking more and more plausible. And after all, there's no reason but tradition why they have to tie everything up in a trilogy. We know there will be more films. The new leads are young. They could easily move to more of an MCU model with an arc spanning a couple dozen interconnected films, if they were willing to expand their universe beyond the small core group and a single main storyline.
This was my serious guess. Disney wants to milk the franchise, and since side-films aren't receiving the profits that they expected, this is their best option. Not that TFA and TLJ left them much choice, narratively.
Image

User avatar
Darth Lucifer
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1599
Joined: 2004-10-14 04:18am
Location: In pursuit of the Colonial Fleet

Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by Darth Lucifer » 2018-11-26 06:00am

Re: General Hux...If I can forget some of the scenes from TLJ (Hux being wimpy and incompetent, Hux being force choked and thrown around by Snoke and Kylo Ren) I can see him as a major villain. He strikes me as a political puppet kind of guy who is surrounded by people more competent than himself, like the captain of the ISD Compensator who said they should have scrambled their fighters five bloody minutes ago. Also, despite the above claim in the article that "Lightsaber beats blaster, every time," Episode III showed what can happen when you get enough well-armed stormtroopers together. A power struggle or civil war within the First Order would be kind of cool. And the Resistance can make their big strike when they are fighting each other.

Re: Milennium Falcon...oh god please no. Trek got away with this because they brought the Enterprise back in ST4:TVH... I'm not sure Star Wars would be able to duplicate that feat without pissing off the majority of the fanbase. The most cynical part of me thinks someone at Disney wants to scrap the Falcon just so they can make a new ship and sell more toys. If they really do this, then Lando Calrissian and Nien Nunb should be the ones at the helm, making some kind of heroic sacrifice. I can't imagine the Falcon going out any other way.

Re: Force ghosts...Since Return of the Jedi retconned the spirit of Anakin Skywalker into Hayden Christensen, I would expect to see him reprise this role. Personally, I don't want to see anyone but Luke Skywalker and it would be cool if he appeared to both Kylo Ren AND Rey.

Re: Rey's backstory...No and No. Trying to fix the character so she's "royalty" or somehow related to the Skywalker bloodline would undermine her character completely. Rey is special exactly because she's NOT special. They've already shown her skirting the edges of the dark side mind-linking with Kylo Ren. I want another scene or two with them together, trying to turn their counterpart like how Luke and Vader tried to appeal to the other on Endor. I do not want some cockamamie explanation about how she mysteriously killed her own parents when she was in space kindergarten. If they're going to move backwards with the characters and not forwards, they might as well have Kylo Ren put his helmet back on for the next film.

User avatar
Darth Lucifer
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1599
Joined: 2004-10-14 04:18am
Location: In pursuit of the Colonial Fleet

Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by Darth Lucifer » 2018-11-26 06:23am

Ghetto Edit: The board was updating...I confused the Dreadnought with the Supremacy above.

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15672
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-11-26 04:26pm

Darth Lucifer wrote:
2018-11-26 06:00am
Re: General Hux...If I can forget some of the scenes from TLJ (Hux being wimpy and incompetent, Hux being force choked and thrown around by Snoke and Kylo Ren) I can see him as a major villain. He strikes me as a political puppet kind of guy who is surrounded by people more competent than himself, like the captain of the ISD Compensator who said they should have scrambled their fighters five bloody minutes ago. Also, despite the above claim in the article that "Lightsaber beats blaster, every time," Episode III showed what can happen when you get enough well-armed stormtroopers together. A power struggle or civil war within the First Order would be kind of cool. And the Resistance can make their big strike when they are fighting each other.
Hux has basically no credibility as a lead villain after TLJ, and not much before then. I expect he will make a play to challenge Kylo's leadership (as TLJ hinted at)- and he will get smacked down in about five seconds flat. The only way he has a significant impact is if his betrayal comes at a crucial moment, ie distracting Kylo at a critical moment and allowing the heroes to gain the advantage.

I could see him pulling a Darth Malak- not confronting Kylo directly, because even he isn't that dense, but order his ship to fire on Kylo's position while he's dueling Rey or something.
Re: Milennium Falcon...oh god please no. Trek got away with this because they brought the Enterprise back in ST4:TVH... I'm not sure Star Wars would be able to duplicate that feat without pissing off the majority of the fanbase. The most cynical part of me thinks someone at Disney wants to scrap the Falcon just so they can make a new ship and sell more toys. If they really do this, then Lando Calrissian and Nien Nunb should be the ones at the helm, making some kind of heroic sacrifice. I can't imagine the Falcon going out any other way.
Oh, it would provoke bottomless nerd rage, but any new Star Wars film is going to do that anyway at this point, just by being a new Star Wars film.

But yeah, I think that if they're going to kill the Falcon, it should probably be Lando who pilots it on its final run. Maybe include some nod to Solo as well, in recognition of the fact that the Falcon has that downloaded consciousness of Lando's droid in it.
Re: Force ghosts...Since Return of the Jedi retconned the spirit of Anakin Skywalker into Hayden Christensen, I would expect to see him reprise this role. Personally, I don't want to see anyone but Luke Skywalker and it would be cool if he appeared to both Kylo Ren AND Rey.
Oh, I want Luke to show up and just troll the hell out of Kylo again.

But yeah, Anakin appearing to Kylo almost has to happen- the only question is why it hasn't happened already.
Re: Rey's backstory...No and No. Trying to fix the character so she's "royalty" or somehow related to the Skywalker bloodline would undermine her character completely. Rey is special exactly because she's NOT special. They've already shown her skirting the edges of the dark side mind-linking with Kylo Ren. I want another scene or two with them together, trying to turn their counterpart like how Luke and Vader tried to appeal to the other on Endor. I do not want some cockamamie explanation about how she mysteriously killed her own parents when she was in space kindergarten. If they're going to move backwards with the characters and not forwards, they might as well have Kylo Ren put his helmet back on for the next film.
Agreed. Though my big fear for IX is that they'll do exactly that- bring Abrams back, and have him/let him clumsily retcon everything in TLJ in order to appease angry fans.

Actually, a lot of the big things in TLJ would be pretty easy to retcon:

Snoke's death? Yeah, we've seen powerful Dark Siders come back before- from being cut in half, no less.

Phasma's death? Never even saw a body.

Rey is no one? Kylo was lying to her, playing on her own fears and insecurities that he read in her mind.

But in my opinion, it would be a mistake to change Rey's background. I originally thought, and hoped, that she'd turn out to be Luke's daughter, but now... I think the best time for that revelation is passed now that Luke is dead, and I'd rather they try to explore developing who Rey is- show her creating her own identity, rather than simply inheriting one. If they could do that, and do it well, I think it would be a more powerful story than just another Special Heritage Chosen One (who are a dime a dozen in fiction, at this point).

Really, that's where the focus should be for Episode IX: If Rey is No One*, then who is she? We know that Rey is a fundamentally decent person, or at least her actions thus far suggest that, but also that she has deep insecurities about her lack of a family or perceived place in the universe, that that made her reluctant to leave Jakku and, once she did, made her susceptible to latching onto whatever chance of belonging came along- hence the Dark Side and Kylo being able to tempt her. She turned her back on Kylo, and seemed to accept that she was No One. But then the question still remains- what sort of identity will she choose to create for herself? Necessity, or the Will of the Force, has thrust her into the role of rebuilding the Jedi, but she lacks much of the skills and experience necessary to do so- Rey has massive amounts of power, but very little talent at persuasion (see her repeated failures in this arena), no political experience, and very little in the way of "book smarts" to all appearances. She's never tried to be a mentor or teacher. Rey will have to grow as a person, and create a new identity for herself. And particularly if you want to create a "strong female lead", that's kind of essential, in my opinion. If you want a strong female protagonist, it's not enough to just cast a woman, give her a bunch of powers, and make her generically likeable. You have to give her a strong character arc, and establish her as someone who is capable of self-determination and asserting her own identity. Turning her back on Kylo at the end of TLJ was a good first step, but now we need to see who Rey chooses to become. That should be the central story of Episode IX.



Edit: Basically, the conclusion of TLJ can be described as "Clearing away the old institutions, while preserving their spirit." Or at least that's what they seemed to be going for. Which leads inexorably to "What new thing are you going to build on those foundations." And that is tied very much into "What sort of person is Rey going to become?"





*Heh, now I'm getting Game of Thrones vibes.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals William T. Sherman and Ulysses S Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the United States and Canada.


Fuck Civility.

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15672
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-11-26 04:35pm

Here are the predictions I will venture for IX, in descending order of likelihood:

Luke will return as a Force Ghost.

Leia will die.

Rose will be either killed off (I really hope not) or paired with someone else to allow for Rey/Finn. Or, alternately, they'll fall back on "Jedi can't have attachments" for Rey and have Rose and Finn get together (note that I would consider this the worst option thematically, as it would be a final reversal of the development of the Jedi over the previous two trilogies). But one way or another, Disney will shun the obvious solution of having a polyamorous relationship in a Star Wars film. :D

Rey will wield a green lightsaber, possibly a staff saber.

Lando will die.

Hux will make a very ill-considered, and very short-lived, bid for First Order leadership.

Phasma will come back. Snoke will not.



I also think that there will be some sort of resolution, but significant plot threads will be left hanging for future films, either deliberately, or because JJ Abrams is a sub-par writer at plot development.

Edit: Forgot to mention: the Knights of Ren will appear. Or at least I will be very annoyed if they don't. :)
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals William T. Sherman and Ulysses S Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the United States and Canada.


Fuck Civility.

User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 14562
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Sydney, Australia

Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by Gandalf » 2018-11-26 05:03pm

I think it'd be neat if Hux came into his own and stopped being a pathetic universal lackey like Vader in ANH.
FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-11-23 01:22pm
MY FAN THEORY
Maybe they can end it the same way JJ Abrams ended a previous work he actually finished instead of walking away from: The entire series was all a dream.

*snip image*

So, just expect Leia to wake up in bed before the entire trilogy started with a really bad nightmare of what came and setting things right.

That's my fan theory anyway, due to it being the only ending JJ Abrams has actually ever made.
Are you referring to the episode written to be the actual finale of the show, or the extra episodes that the network told them to make afterwards?
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15672
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-11-26 05:06pm

Eh, I don't think Hux can be anything but a joke convincingly after TLJ. I think the only place to take him from here is "tries pathetically to coup Kylo, dies just as pathetically as he lived."

Edit: one criticism of the ST that I do think has some merit is that it lacks effective villains. I like Kylo as a deconstruction of the usual "bad ass" Sith Lord type, and he's smart and powerful enough to be threatening if need be, when his emotional baggage isn't getting in the way. But besides him? We have:

Snoke. Theoretically a cunning evil mastermind, and not lacking in power, and very well-acted by Serkis, but too thinly-developed to be more than a less impressive Palpatine knock-off in the end.

Phasma. Set-up as a bad ass, got too little opportunity to show it, as opposed to just being a joke. Waste of a good actor.

Hux. Frothing fanatic in TFA, buffoonish joke in TLJ.

DJ. Nice jab at Both Sides bullshit, and well-acted, but not major villain material.

That's pretty much it. Though I suppose you can argue that the films are doing a good thing by not making fascists seem cool.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals William T. Sherman and Ulysses S Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the United States and Canada.


Fuck Civility.

User avatar
Lord Revan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10999
Joined: 2004-05-20 02:23pm
Location: Zone:classified

Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by Lord Revan » 2018-11-26 10:53pm

I could see Hux trying to pull of a Darth Malak style "lets shoot the leader in the back while he's distracted" coup on Kylo Ren.

Personally what I'd like is have Hux's betrayl happen at final battle, when the stakes are at their highest. Either the Resistance is beaten and the Republic is done for as they've not been able to build up an effective fleet that isn't the Resistance( that just got destroyed) or if the First Order doesn't win they won't have the resources to beat the Republic before it can bring its full might to the table.


So when all hope seems lost and the heroes try one last desperate assault to stop the First Order, only for Kylo Ren be distracted enough from the battle for Hux to think "Now is the time for me to take position I TRULY deserve" and betray Ren.

Then in the confusion the heroes are able to beat Kylo Ren and the First Order fleet, since Hux was no true leader, just a petty man who was jelous he wasn't the boss and was unable to rally the fleet after the confusion and disaray cause by his betrail.

IMHO it would poetic and thematic to have the dark side (personified in the First Order) beaten by its own selfishness and not by the strength of arms of the heroes.
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15672
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-11-26 10:58pm

That would be the best possible ending to the conflict that I can think of, and possibly the only semi-plausible way to wrap it up in one film, given how weak the Resistance now is.

It also fits with the fairly heavy KotOR parallels throughout the ST.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals William T. Sherman and Ulysses S Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the United States and Canada.


Fuck Civility.

User avatar
Darth Lucifer
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1599
Joined: 2004-10-14 04:18am
Location: In pursuit of the Colonial Fleet

Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by Darth Lucifer » 2018-11-26 11:30pm

Re: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo as the good guy...As stated above, the Sequel Trilogy is pretty lacking when it comes to villains. While there may be a confrontation of sorts between Kylo Ren and General Hux, that doesn't mean he should fly "...the Millennium Falcon and [sit] next to Chewie and Lando, exchanging witty banter." That is about the dumbest fucking idea I've heard so far. Chewie saw Kylo Ren run a lightsaber through Han, there's no way they would ever occupy the same space without the Wookiee going apeshit.

As far as I'm concerned, Kylo Ren is not Han and Leia’s son anymore. He's a Sith acolyte that was seduced to the Dark Side by Snoke. There should be no redemption for murdering Han Solo. Granted, he hesitated when firing on his own mother, but when he seized power from Snoke that sealed the deal in my book. Ben Solo is now dead and Kylo Ren is all that remains.

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15672
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-11-26 11:48pm

Darth Lucifer wrote:
2018-11-26 11:30pm
Re: Kylo Ren/Ben Solo as the good guy...As stated above, the Sequel Trilogy is pretty lacking when it comes to villains. While there may be a confrontation of sorts between Kylo Ren and General Hux, that doesn't mean he should fly "...the Millennium Falcon and [sit] next to Chewie and Lando, exchanging witty banter." That is about the dumbest fucking idea I've heard so far. Chewie saw Kylo Ren run a lightsaber through Han, there's no way they would ever occupy the same space without the Wookiee going apeshit.

As far as I'm concerned, Kylo Ren is not Han and Leia’s son anymore. He's a Sith acolyte that was seduced to the Dark Side by Snoke. There should be no redemption for murdering Han Solo. Granted, he hesitated when firing on his own mother, but when he seized power from Snoke that sealed the deal in my book. Ben Solo is now dead and Kylo Ren is all that remains.
I don't see how his actions are objectively any worse or more irredeemable that Vader's. But I agree that Chewie would probably try to kill him on sight.

And I don't want him to be redeemed now (or if he is, I don't want Rey to have any hand in doing it) for one simple reason: the idea that women can "save" an abusive man if they keep giving him a second chance is far too common as it is.

Edit: Seriously, every time I see a "Reylo" shipping fic, I am torn between a desire to rant at the author for their stupidity, and pity for them, because I know there's good odds that writer either is, or will grow up to be, a domestic abuse victim.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals William T. Sherman and Ulysses S Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the United States and Canada.


Fuck Civility.

User avatar
Darth Lucifer
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1599
Joined: 2004-10-14 04:18am
Location: In pursuit of the Colonial Fleet

Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by Darth Lucifer » 2018-11-27 04:03am

You're right, TRR...Darth Vader's atrocity count was much higher than Kylo Ren's and he still managed to find forgiveness in Space Jesus come back to the Light Side. Also, the conflict within him has been a consistent theme...in TFA, Ren seems to instantly regret killing his father; the script and novelization support this. In TLJ, he hesitated to pull the trigger, again seemingly conflicted the entire time. Then, before the throne room scene with Snoke, Rey tells Kylo she feels the conflict within him. The more I think about it, if any plot point of the Sequel Trilogy needs resolved it's this one.

If you don't like the idea of "Reylo," there's more rumor flying around Reddit and the rest of the internet that the two of them will conceive a child. Or they might have already done so (via the Force and midichlorians) when they psychically connected in TLJ. The idea of Rey and Kylo Ren being romantically involved....ugh, fucking hell no. I never made a connection for romance at all between them; the impression I got from TFA and TLJ was that Kylo Ren wanted Rey as an apprentice not a lover.

User avatar
Lord Revan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10999
Joined: 2004-05-20 02:23pm
Location: Zone:classified

Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by Lord Revan » 2018-11-27 04:53am

Darth Lucifer wrote:
2018-11-27 04:03am
If you don't like the idea of "Reylo," there's more rumor flying around Reddit and the rest of the internet that the two of them will conceive a child. Or they might have already done so (via the Force and midichlorians) when they psychically connected in TLJ. The idea of Rey and Kylo Ren being romantically involved....ugh, fucking hell no. I never made a connection for romance at all between them; the impression I got from TFA and TLJ was that Kylo Ren wanted Rey as an apprentice not a lover.
I think "Reylo" is based on the idea that you can't have close male/female relationship between non-related people that isn't romantic and/or sexual and yes there people who include the Anakin/Ahsoka relationship into this, dispite her being underage.

Essentially the Rey/Kylo Ren shipping seems to come from people who can figure out that it's possible for a man and a woman to be "just friends" or have a close professional relationship without sexual tension.
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n

User avatar
Lord Revan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10999
Joined: 2004-05-20 02:23pm
Location: Zone:classified

Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by Lord Revan » 2018-11-27 04:55am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-11-26 10:58pm
That would be the best possible ending to the conflict that I can think of, and possibly the only semi-plausible way to wrap it up in one film, given how weak the Resistance now is.

It also fits with the fairly heavy KotOR parallels throughout the ST.
Speaking of KOTOR parallels Darth Malak wasn't actually a good leader either but what he said was good second who compensated for his failings.
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15672
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-11-27 01:52pm

Darth Lucifer wrote:
2018-11-27 04:03am
You're right, TRR...Darth Vader's atrocity count was much higher than Kylo Ren's and he still managed to find forgiveness in Space Jesus come back to the Light Side. Also, the conflict within him has been a consistent theme...in TFA, Ren seems to instantly regret killing his father; the script and novelization support this. In TLJ, he hesitated to pull the trigger, again seemingly conflicted the entire time. Then, before the throne room scene with Snoke, Rey tells Kylo she feels the conflict within him. The more I think about it, if any plot point of the Sequel Trilogy needs resolved it's this one.

If you don't like the idea of "Reylo," there's more rumor flying around Reddit and the rest of the internet that the two of them will conceive a child. Or they might have already done so (via the Force and midichlorians) when they psychically connected in TLJ. The idea of Rey and Kylo Ren being romantically involved....ugh, fucking hell no.
Rey... Kylo... conceive...

OH, HELL NO. :evil:
I never made a connection for romance at all between them; the impression I got from TFA and TLJ was that Kylo Ren wanted Rey as an apprentice not a lover.
The two aren't mutually exclusive, though its possible that any attraction was mostly one-sided.

I definitely got some shippy vibes from TLJ (one of my least favorite aspects of the film, though somewhat mitigated by the fact that she very clearly rejected him at the end of the film). But considering that pretty much the only remotely sexual interaction between them in TFA was a line that could be taken as a veiled rape threat while she was his prisoner... yeah, no.

Mind you, I think being drawn to Kylo in that way is a fairly realistic weakness for Rey. A lot of people fall for the "bad boy I can save" bullshit, as noted above, and Rey has deep insecurities about her lack of family/belonging and (implied) lack of self-worth. Its also fairly common, as I understand, for people from abusive families (such as Rey's, if one believes Kylo's account that they were drunks who sold her for drinking money) to enter abusive relationships in adulthood. And we see that Rey has a tendency to latch quickly onto any person who can act as a substitute family (Finn, Han, Luke, Kylo).

But turning her back on Kylo in the end is one of the few bits of actual character growth she has (seriously, I like Rey, but I can't deny that she doesn't have much of an arc at this point), and it would weaken her greatly as a character to reverse course on it. And the notion that she and Kylo could have any kind of positive relationship is... laughable, or would be if it weren't so sad.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals William T. Sherman and Ulysses S Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the United States and Canada.


Fuck Civility.

User avatar
Civil War Man
NERRRRRDS!!!
Posts: 3646
Joined: 2005-01-28 03:54am

Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by Civil War Man » 2018-11-27 03:48pm

I also count myself among the list of people who thinks Kylo Ren shouldn't be redeemed. As far as I am concerned, he is by far the most interesting character of the sequels, and was the only one who came out of TLJ more interesting than he started. Part of the thing that makes him interesting as is that he has no real ideology beyond his own selfish interests. He's a Sith Lord who fell to the Dark Side largely out of spite, and he's not the least bit devoted to the idea of it the way that Palpatine, Snoke, or Vader were.

By that token, I like the idea of a one-sided Reylo, where Kylo is infatuated with Rey, but the feeling is definitely not mutual. He misinterprets Rey's desire to turn him away from the Dark Side as romantic interest, and his temper at the end of TLJ (prior to Luke's Force Trolling) was largely motivated by confused anger over Rey rejecting him. He saved Rey from Snoke, and they fought side by side to take down the Praetorian guard. In his mind, he was the big damn hero who saves the day and gets the girl, but then the girl rejected him, which is not how it's "supposed" to go. The big moment of this is when he's practically pleading for Rey to join him, along with a light side of negging over her parents ("They were nothing. You're nothing...but not to me."), then becoming increasingly frustrated, angry, and hysterical when she refuses to follow the script he had written in his mind.

User avatar
Crazedwraith
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10564
Joined: 2003-04-10 03:45pm
Location: Cheshire, England

Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by Crazedwraith » 2018-11-27 04:12pm

Civil War Man wrote:
2018-11-27 03:48pm
-snip-
I like that interpretation greatly, that's very much how I see Kylo.

I do see a lot of Reylo stuff around though and people who claim that Kylo must be redeemed, which I don't agree with. Because well, he's rejected it so far, there's no big villain for him to redeem himself against ala Vader and it's a predicable aping of Vader's arc.

But if he does get 'redeemed', I'd love for it to be the kind of redemption where he actually has to atone for his crimes at the end. I have an image of him in a sci-fi cell, ala Magneto at the end of x-men but content with it and just meditating peaceful in the light of the fore. Place for the inevitable next trilogy to use him as it wants. Flip him back to the dark, fully redeem him, give him a hannibal like mentoring of Rey from inside the cell...
To the brave passengers and crew of the Kobayashi Maru... sucks to be you - Peter David

User avatar
Civil War Man
NERRRRRDS!!!
Posts: 3646
Joined: 2005-01-28 03:54am

Re: Episode IX fan theories (warning: here be dragons).

Post by Civil War Man » 2018-11-27 04:22pm

Crazedwraith wrote:
2018-11-27 04:12pm
Civil War Man wrote:
2018-11-27 03:48pm
-snip-
I like that interpretation greatly, that's very much how I see Kylo.

I do see a lot of Reylo stuff around though and people who claim that Kylo must be redeemed, which I don't agree with. Because well, he's rejected it so far, there's no big villain for him to redeem himself against ala Vader and it's a predicable aping of Vader's arc.

But if he does get 'redeemed', I'd love for it to be the kind of redemption where he actually has to atone for his crimes at the end. I have an image of him in a sci-fi cell, ala Magneto at the end of x-men but content with it and just meditating peaceful in the light of the fore. Place for the inevitable next trilogy to use him as it wants. Flip him back to the dark, fully redeem him, give him a hannibal like mentoring of Rey from inside the cell...
To bring another Disney franchise in on it, a Kylo Ren "redemption" might work if it's done like Loki, where his status as a good guy or a bad guy depends entirely on which one benefits him at that particular moment and/or suits his whims. It could work because, as I said, he doesn't really have an ideology beyond his own selfish desires.

Post Reply