Funding the Jedi Order

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Zor
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Funding the Jedi Order

Post by Zor » 2018-11-14 01:18pm

The Jedi have a lot of fancy stuff. The Temple, the outposts, the starships, the fighters, the droids, the Speeders and all of that stuff. Probably they would at least try and compensate people who had their stuff smashed up in official Jedi business and they eat out every now and again. Even if the average Jedi Knight does not get a wage, s/he still has at least some access to currency. And they probably have organic employees as well who do draw wages.

In short, the Jedi Order would need a steady supply of Credits to keep it operating. Has it ever been addressed where it comes from. The closet thing I've heard about a source of revenue is the Agricultural Corps. So were they tax payer funded or collected donations from around the galaxy or were properties owned by the Jedi Order which provided rent to fund their activities or what?

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Re: Funding the Jedi Order

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-11-14 01:48pm

I guess I kind of assumed state funded. Although, 20,000 years is a hell of a lot of time to amass wealth (see the Catholic Church, for example).

I guess Jedi don't get donations from worshipers, though?
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Re: Funding the Jedi Order

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2018-11-14 01:49pm

One thought I had was that the Jedi Order as a whole gets to own any patents on things invented by individual Jedi. So some technically-minded Jedi (like Anakin) invents some clever doohickey and the Order gets the royalties.
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Re: Funding the Jedi Order

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-11-14 02:06pm

That's a good thought.
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Re: Funding the Jedi Order

Post by Ziggy Stardust » 2018-11-14 03:54pm

Even if the Jedi don't have parishioners to offer donations the way real churches do, it seems pretty likely that they are they are the recipients of some noblesse oblige type social contract.

I imagine their finances are a product of multiple things. The likely receive tax breaks and subsidies from the Republic government, they likely have large reserves due to their massive age, various members worlds or organizations are liable to give them money (even if the Jedi don't charge for their services, it wouldn't surprise me if it were considered customary for worlds who receive Jedi services to reward or "tip" them with some sort of donation down the line), many private businesses are likely to offer their services either free or at discount to Jedi due to the high standing they hold in Republic society, and so on.

It is also canon that at least one Jedi, Count Dooku, was independently wealthy and a member of the nobility for some planet or another. It wouldn't surprise me at all if there were a number of other Jedi from privileged backgrounds with pretty direct ties to the upper class of the Republic.

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Re: Funding the Jedi Order

Post by Lord Revan » 2018-11-14 05:17pm

There's also the possibility that Jedi lend info from the Jedi Archives for a fee, even if the individual fee is small that could rack up quite a number of credits in the long run as the Jedi Order would most likely have best database in the Republic in quite many things.

That said there's probably not a single source but several minor ones that add up.
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Re: Funding the Jedi Order

Post by Solauren » 2018-11-14 05:18pm

Recall Attack of the Clones:
Mace Windu said there were not enough Jedi to protect the Republic. They were 'keepers of the peace, not soldiers'.

Yet, the Clone Wars starts, and the Jedi are in charge of the Military. (Or at least highly placed)

That implies they are part of the Republic in some way. Sort of like the 'Federal level' Police.
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Re: Funding the Jedi Order

Post by Lord Revan » 2018-11-14 05:21pm

Solauren wrote:
2018-11-14 05:18pm
Recall Attack of the Clones:
Mace Windu said there were not enough Jedi to protect the Republic. They were 'keepers of the peace, not soldiers'.

Yet, the Clone Wars starts, and the Jedi are in charge of the Military. (Or at least highly placed)

That implies they are part of the Republic in some way. Sort of like the 'Federal level' Police.
In the legendaries they were sort of part of the department of justice is the Galactic Republic, though the exact nature of that was vague and the Jedi Order had a lot of independence in many things.
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Re: Funding the Jedi Order

Post by Elheru Aran » 2018-11-14 06:06pm

Bear in mind that the Jedi existed *before* the current incarnation of the Republic. In a sense they could almost be said to have participated in founding the Republic itself. As such, they're basically the ultimate legacy organization.

Add in that the millennia of time to arrange financial affairs, wealthy members surrendering their goods and possessions to the Order, "gifts" from grateful planets and organizations, and so forth... it all adds up.

One could even speculate whether there was a department of the Jedi dedicated to attempting to prognosticate the galactic stock market... certainly their precognition might come in useful there!
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Re: Funding the Jedi Order

Post by Batman » 2018-11-14 06:46pm

Jedi precog seems to be pretty unreliable long-range though. The fractions of a second needed to block a blaster bolt seems to work fine but any further than that and things get fuzzy. 'Always in motion is the future'
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Re: Funding the Jedi Order

Post by Solauren » 2018-11-14 07:40pm

Batman wrote:
2018-11-14 06:46pm
Jedi precog seems to be pretty unreliable long-range though. The fractions of a second needed to block a blaster bolt seems to work fine but any further than that and things get fuzzy. 'Always in motion is the future'
Maybe not for 'Day Trading'
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Re: Funding the Jedi Order

Post by Solauren » 2018-11-14 07:41pm

There was also a time, way before Yoda, of the Jedi having families, businesses, and the like.

All you need is a few successful businesses having Jedi involvement in their funding, and they left a percentage ownership to the Jedi Order....
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Re: Funding the Jedi Order

Post by DesertFly » 2018-11-15 12:52pm

Man it'd be fascinating to see the books of the Jedi Order at their height. Can you imagine the complicated tangle of bank accounts, funds, wholly-owned subsidiaries across multiple star systems with a complex web of different laws and treaties and traditions and regulations? Do you suppose there are enough Jedi with the skills and inclination to fully fill out the Temple's accounting department, or is there a firm (or multiple firms) wholly dedicated to keeping track of all the insanity an ancient organization like the Order has to have by necessity. I'm sure large companies like Kuat are even more nuts.
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Re: Funding the Jedi Order

Post by Lord Revan » 2018-11-15 02:57pm

DesertFly wrote:
2018-11-15 12:52pm
Man it'd be fascinating to see the books of the Jedi Order at their height. Can you imagine the complicated tangle of bank accounts, funds, wholly-owned subsidiaries across multiple star systems with a complex web of different laws and treaties and traditions and regulations? Do you suppose there are enough Jedi with the skills and inclination to fully fill out the Temple's accounting department, or is there a firm (or multiple firms) wholly dedicated to keeping track of all the insanity an ancient organization like the Order has to have by necessity. I'm sure large companies like Kuat are even more nuts.
At least in legendaries padawans/younglings who failed to get a master would help the order in other ways (like the agricultural corps), even if they weren't full fleaded Jedi. Also in legendaries (and to a degree in canon) the Jedi Order does have non-jedi helping with the daily running of the Jedi Order, for example the guards of the Jedi Temple in Corusant were mostly hired non-jedi.
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Re: Funding the Jedi Order

Post by KraytKing » 2018-12-01 05:31pm

Warfare says that pre-Ruusan, there were Jedi lords that ruled their own sectors and had businesses and other such. These were outlawed following Ruusan. With this as a precedent and with my general knowledge of Jedi principles, I would assume that the Jedi Order owning businesses or property is rather unlikely. Having Jedi use their precognition in the stock market would be unethical, and therefore probably banned. Maybe one of the Lost Twenty was an economist.

If I remember correctly, Republic Commando suggested that the Jedi Order was federally funded. Something about poor people resenting the Jedi for their talk of helping the people while they enjoyed the high life living off of government dole. I don't recall the particulars, and I don't have the inclination to go look it up at the moment.
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Re: Funding the Jedi Order

Post by Sea Skimmer » 2018-12-01 05:59pm

I've wondered this before, it's never been established for the Republican era Jedi order. But I would observe that while the jedi have some neat toys, look at the temple compared to Coruscant. It's big, but it's surrounded by a literal planet sized city of ~2km tall buildings.

The actual relative amount of funding the Jedi need would be incredibly small at that kind of scale. The Republic probably does pay some amount of money to the order, but that probably takes the form of payment for services rendered rather then as an absolute source of income, a subsidy in other words. Gifts strike me as being a probable major source of funding. The Jedi had many enemies, but obviously prior to the Clone Wars they had non trivial popularity in a very large civilization and a large number of planets have no military and are relying on the Republic and Jedi for protection. They might well be making payments directly to the Jedi Order on some kind of scale.

I also got the impression that the Jedi ship in The Phantom Menace probably belonged to the Republic, the Jedi might not really own any really major ships directly at that point, while we've seen that small galaxy traversing freighters and shuttles aren't actually all that expensive.

With the order having existed so long, and probably helped a non trivial number of rich people along the way, it'd be easy to build build up a substantial fiscal structure.Gifts, investments, they might own random properties quietly, with so much time to work with and such minimal requirements relative to the scale of the Republic (even if we assume claims like ~10,000+ Jedi are true) all it might really take is one big donation from a Quadrillionair every three decades to keep them going.
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Re: Funding the Jedi Order

Post by Elheru Aran » 2018-12-02 12:34am

Sea Skimmer wrote:
2018-12-01 05:59pm
I also got the impression that the Jedi ship in The Phantom Menace probably belonged to the Republic, the Jedi might not really own any really major ships directly at that point, while we've seen that small galaxy traversing freighters and shuttles aren't actually all that expensive.
If you mean the craft Qui-gon and Obi-wan traveled to Naboo upon, yeah, that was a Republic ship, a Consular class diplomatic barge for ferrying Senators and Jedi around.

A side point which might be pertinent to the thread: at various points at least during Galactic history, it's quite likely that the Jedi enjoyed enough popular esteem to, at the very least, receive discounts on a regular basis. While not quite 'gifts' or financial benefits, on a day-to-day basis for example a Jedi might get plenty of 'your money's no good here, Jedi, order what you like' or 'Ah, Master Jedis! Such a good time you came today, special discount only for Jedis!' On a larger scale this might translate into, for example, shipping companies offering preferential treatment. Lobbying, in other words; influence-peddling. I'm sure the Jedi tried to watch out for such things, but it would have been hard to resist taking advantage of them. Later on, this might have translated into the Jedi leaning on people when they *didn't* get preferential treatment...
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Re: Funding the Jedi Order

Post by Sea Skimmer » 2018-12-02 01:51am

Elheru Aran wrote:
2018-12-02 12:34am
A side point which might be pertinent to the thread: at various points at least during Galactic history, it's quite likely that the Jedi enjoyed enough popular esteem to, at the very least, receive discounts on a regular basis.
Probably so, it's merely the other side of the coin of donations. But in a complex economy nothing can totally replace money for the flexibility and certainty it provides. The fact that the galaxy doesn't fully accept Republican credits probably makes that a major headache, though one assumes the Jedi order keeps many forms of funds, the Jedi on Tatooine were of course forced to flee on the Queens ship with minimal resources. The implication seemed to be that some forms of currency were fiat, and some were backed by bullion or made of precious materials directly.
While not quite 'gifts' or financial benefits, on a day-to-day basis for example a Jedi might get plenty of 'your money's no good here, Jedi, order what you like' or 'Ah, Master Jedis! Such a good time you came today, special discount only for Jedis!' On a larger scale this might translate into, for example, shipping companies offering preferential treatment. Lobbying, in other words; influence-peddling. I'm sure the Jedi tried to watch out for such things, but it would have been hard to resist taking advantage of them. Later on, this might have translated into the Jedi leaning on people when they *didn't* get preferential treatment...
I think the Jedi leaning on people for preferential treatment is kinda the definition of FALLING TO THE DARK SIDE!

But a broader issue exists with favoritism, any kind of donation or discount, and anything given on a personal level, all create a bias problem in public perception of the Jedi Order. The public must believe the Jedi are legit neutrals in ordered to serve the Republic in their intended role, which means they can't just be engaging in blatant pander or allowing themselves to be pandered too. Even if the Jedi themselves have strong faith in their own system, cause they kinda gotta since the dark side is literal measurable evil, even the pro Jedi side of public opinion couldn't have the same faith. It is after all, actual space magic. You couldn't claim to understand it without being able to sense the force.

This is probably part of why the Jedi seem to have had a certain negative reputation by the time of the clone wars, as did the republic as a whole. They accepted enough, got involved with enough, that many people simply could not believe they would not be corrupted by the nature of their own existence, people who didn't accept the force in a literal sense or even if they did, figured the truth was the truth... which actually was that the Jedi were so arrogant they could no longer self police. But obviously the system had lasted pretty well, and for longer then any Empire yet has in real life.

Another interesting observation though is that nothing seems to prevent Jedi from personally retaining significant wealth, though you'd imagine some kind of formal rules exist, and probably much broader informal ones if someone acts too much like a jackass. In the Clone Wars Anakin has a personal ship, and it's always said to be his ship, and not treated like an asset of the Republic or the Jedi as a whole even when used for Jedi operations.
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Re: Funding the Jedi Order

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-12-02 02:42am

Sea Skimmer wrote:
2018-12-02 01:51am
But obviously the system had lasted pretty well, and for longer then any Empire yet has in real life.
Indeed. Its ultimate failure does not change the fact that the Republic government maintained control of most of a galaxy, for the most part peacefully and at least semi-democratically for 1,000 years, uniting thousands of different races, cultures and species across thousands of star systems, and did it without overt despotism of any kind, without even a standing army. And is a direct successor to organizations and ideologies going back over twenty thousand years.

That is a fucking enviable track record, which leaves any real government, culture, or religious far in the dust. So when people talk about how flawed the Republic is... remember that it did better by far than any real society ever has. And Palpatine should be cursed for all eternity for destroying that system.

It did probably rely a great deal on Jedi peacekeeping to identify and head off trouble before it could grow out of control, though. And given the small number of Jedi, a lot of that probably relied on the Jedi aura of invincibility (which is shown clearly, and acknowledged as fictitious by Qui-Gon IIRC, in Phantom Menace). Which is why I think that Geonosis was the real beginning of the end- because it showed that the Jedi were to some extent a paper tiger- that massed conventional firepower could overwhelm and destroy Jedi en masse. Yoda warned of the Jedi's enemies multiplying if their growing weakness was known. So I think that Geonosis was probably the beginning of the death of the Republic system.

Edit: and the NR failed because it tried to emulate the OR model without the presence of a strong Jedi Order, or a viable substitute.
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Re: Funding the Jedi Order

Post by Lord Revan » 2018-12-02 04:15am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-12-02 02:42am
Sea Skimmer wrote:
2018-12-02 01:51am
But obviously the system had lasted pretty well, and for longer then any Empire yet has in real life.
Indeed. Its ultimate failure does not change the fact that the Republic government maintained control of most of a galaxy, for the most part peacefully and at least semi-democratically for 1,000 years, uniting thousands of different races, cultures and species across thousands of star systems, and did it without overt despotism of any kind, without even a standing army. And is a direct successor to organizations and ideologies going back over twenty thousand years.

That is a fucking enviable track record, which leaves any real government, culture, or religious far in the dust. So when people talk about how flawed the Republic is... remember that it did better by far than any real society ever has. And Palpatine should be cursed for all eternity for destroying that system.

It did probably rely a great deal on Jedi peacekeeping to identify and head off trouble before it could grow out of control, though. And given the small number of Jedi, a lot of that probably relied on the Jedi aura of invincibility (which is shown clearly, and acknowledged as fictitious by Qui-Gon IIRC, in Phantom Menace). Which is why I think that Geonosis was the real beginning of the end- because it showed that the Jedi were to some extent a paper tiger- that massed conventional firepower could overwhelm and destroy Jedi en masse. Yoda warned of the Jedi's enemies multiplying if their growing weakness was known. So I think that Geonosis was probably the beginning of the death of the Republic system.

Edit: and the NR failed because it tried to emulate the OR model without the presence of a strong Jedi Order, or a viable substitute.
Also we should remember that during this time the Republic didn't have military to speak of only the jedi order and the judicial corps (which may be non-canon) and both of those acted more as federal police force then actual federal military.

I think what was just as important as the myth of "jedi invincibility" is that the Jedi Order could act as neutral party in arbitating internal conflicts since their loyality was ultimately to the Republic as a whole and not any specific part of it and their abilities would allow them to focus on hotspots that did been external intervention rather then trying to fix everything at once.

Basically the Jedi were just as important if not more so as diplomats and arbiters of conflicts as they were as enforcers of the central goverment.
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Re: Funding the Jedi Order

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-12-02 10:43pm

Yup. Jedi are basically the last word in both special forces and diplomacy.
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Re: Funding the Jedi Order

Post by Lord Revan » 2018-12-12 04:07am

Something we should remember that the "corruption" of the Jedi Order was them becoming too obessed with "letter of the law" (the "law" in question being the jedi code), so them recieving bribes or massing wealth counter to the teachings of the code seems highly unlikely.

As for personal property, I suspect that jedi were allowed to have personal property as long as it could easily justified as "something they needed for the mission" so the Twilight (Anakin's ship in the clone wars CGI series), could be justified as a personal transport, some with their clothes and other gear including lightsabers.

That said I suspect property that was strictly for vanity was at least frown upon if not outright forbidden.
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Re: Funding the Jedi Order

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-12-12 03:16pm

Lord Revan wrote:
2018-12-12 04:07am
Something we should remember that the "corruption" of the Jedi Order was them becoming too obessed with "letter of the law" (the "law" in question being the jedi code), so them recieving bribes or massing wealth counter to the teachings of the code seems highly unlikely.
Not necessarily. Often the fundamentalists who shout loudest about their ideological purity are the ones who sin the most in private.

But I think the main failing of the Old Republic Jedi was that they (ironically) succumbed to fear. They were so afraid of being tempted by the Dark Side that they forgot that fear of falling is still fear, and letting fear dictate your actions is a path to the Dark Side.
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Re: Funding the Jedi Order

Post by Lord Revan » 2018-12-12 04:46pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-12-12 03:16pm
Lord Revan wrote:
2018-12-12 04:07am
Something we should remember that the "corruption" of the Jedi Order was them becoming too obessed with "letter of the law" (the "law" in question being the jedi code), so them recieving bribes or massing wealth counter to the teachings of the code seems highly unlikely.
Not necessarily. Often the fundamentalists who shout loudest about their ideological purity are the ones who sin the most in private.
True in most case but we see jedi "in private" many times and there doesn't seem to any disconnect between their public and private personas
But I think the main failing of the Old Republic Jedi was that they (ironically) succumbed to fear. They were so afraid of being tempted by the Dark Side that they forgot that fear of falling is still fear, and letting fear dictate your actions is a path to the Dark Side.
This I do agree on, Yoda even seemed to understand this to a degree after his defeat at hands of Palpatine. Though that revelation came to him too late to change anything.
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Re: Funding the Jedi Order

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-12-13 01:08pm

Yoda's growth in RotS is actually one of my favorite elements of the saga, and it ties in very nicely with the ultimate progression of the Jedi and Luke in the OT.

Yoda seems to realize that the Jedi were wrong to shun attachments (I like the moment when he tells the Wookies that he will miss them, as it seems a tacit acknowledgement that having attachments is not, in and of itself, a bad thing). The realization came too late to save the Old Republic or the old Jedi Order, but it had huge significance nonetheless- because it meant Yoda was okay with Luke and Leia being raised with families, and that had enormous influence on their outlook, and in particular Luke's willingness to try to save rather than kill his father.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

-Generals William T. Sherman and Ulysses S Grant, the Battle of Shiloh.


"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"-Terry Pratchett's DEATH.


I am a dual citizen of the United States and Canada.


Fuck Civility.

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