Star War Naval Combat

PSW: discuss Star Wars without "versus" arguments.

Moderator: Vympel

User avatar
Esquire
Jedi Master
Posts: 1443
Joined: 2011-11-16 11:20pm

Re: Star War Naval Combat

Post by Esquire » 2018-09-27 01:20pm

The underlying issue isn't that Star Wars ships are definitely designed to resist artificial gravity attacks, it's that gravity just isn't strong enough to do much to the materials used. Interdictors almost certainly generate something much less than Earth gravity, and a TIE fighter's rated acceleration is like 4,000 g, I think, and that as a biological/investment limit. Other ships, let alone missiles, are much faster; the materials involved are simply not susceptible to damage from such a proportionally weak force.
“Heroes are heroes because they are heroic in behavior, not because they won or lost.” Nassim Nicholas Taleb

User avatar
Reyvan
Youngling
Posts: 78
Joined: 2016-04-03 09:25pm

Re: Star War Naval Combat

Post by Reyvan » 2018-09-27 01:27pm

Interdictors also don't seem to be able to "throw" their gravity well. They can't make the center of another ship the mass shadow, they make themselves the center of the mass shadow. Making it so that you suddenly seem to have the same mass as a planet might cause a few seconds of confusion for other ships in a battle, but it would start crushing them.

Even with old canon star destroyers which can't fly in atmosphere, I would bet the problem is that they have to worry about hitting the ground, not being torn apart. An interdictor is much smaller than a planet, a star destroyer would probably be able to put itself in a decaying orbit around an interdictor until it could destroy it and stop the gravity well.

User avatar
Esquire
Jedi Master
Posts: 1443
Joined: 2011-11-16 11:20pm

Re: Star War Naval Combat

Post by Esquire » 2018-09-27 01:45pm

'Can't not cook the planet with ion wash, and STO only takes a Lambda like four minutes anyway so nobody bothered building in landing gear/repulsorlift capacity' is more likely, I think. What's the source for atmosphere being dangerous to ISDs, rather than to the planet or just pointless?
“Heroes are heroes because they are heroic in behavior, not because they won or lost.” Nassim Nicholas Taleb

User avatar
Elheru Aran
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12335
Joined: 2004-03-04 01:15am
Location: Georgia

Re: Star War Naval Combat

Post by Elheru Aran » 2018-09-27 03:20pm

Old artwork and such was pretty consistent about Star Destroyers staying mostly in one piece when they crashed to the planet. Even Old Republic era ships, before the prequel films, were fairly tough-- see the Chu'unthor, massive Jedi training ship, crashed pretty intact. The prequels depict (admittedly purpose-built) Acclamators and Venators being in planetary atmospheres with no problem. Structural engineering really isn't an issue for Star Wars.
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.

User avatar
Jub
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2873
Joined: 2012-08-06 07:58pm
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: Star War Naval Combat

Post by Jub » 2018-09-27 04:32pm

I guess that it simply wasn't a part of an ISD's mission role to go planet side so they deleted the landing gear and possibly reduced the level of repulsor units to where it could stay high safely but low-level hovering might not stay stable. It could still enter the atmosphere in a pinch but landing or low-level hovering would take a skilled bridge crew.

User avatar
Batman
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15274
Joined: 2002-07-09 04:51am
Location: 'Very' mildly hopeful now DC recognized taking Clark's red trunks away was a bad idea
Contact:

Re: Star War Naval Combat

Post by Batman » 2018-09-27 05:37pm

In Rebels ISDs routinely hover less than a ship's length off the ground with no apparent trouble (of course in Rebels ISDs are largely unarmed and carry at best one full squadron of TIE fighters so... :P )
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

User avatar
Jub
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2873
Joined: 2012-08-06 07:58pm
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: Star War Naval Combat

Post by Jub » 2018-09-27 06:00pm

Batman wrote:
2018-09-27 05:37pm
In Rebels ISDs routinely hover less than a ship's length off the ground with no apparent trouble (of course in Rebels ISDs are largely unarmed and carry at best one full squadron of TIE fighters so... :P )
I haven't seen Rebels, how much lower than a ship's length do they hover? Even 1 kilometer should give them room to correct but if they're like tens of meters that would completely lay this can't go in atmosphere thing to rest. It's likely they can just hover low/land now that a lot of the older stuff that said they couldn't has been tossed.

User avatar
Batman
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15274
Joined: 2002-07-09 04:51am
Location: 'Very' mildly hopeful now DC recognized taking Clark's red trunks away was a bad idea
Contact:

Re: Star War Naval Combat

Post by Batman » 2018-09-27 06:12pm

I'd have to go through Rebels again to be 100% certain but from memory I don't think it was ever less than a quarter of the ship's length, possibly as much as half if not more. No tens of metres that I can recall but even 2 or 3 FULL ship's lengths (and more) would make them fully atmosphere capable.
Not capable of landing necessarily but they can definitely operate in-atmosphere, at least for Earthlike planets
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

User avatar
Jub
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2873
Joined: 2012-08-06 07:58pm
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: Star War Naval Combat

Post by Jub » 2018-09-27 06:20pm

Batman wrote:
2018-09-27 06:12pm
I'd have to go through Rebels again to be 100% certain but from memory I don't think it was ever less than a quarter of the ship's length, possibly as much as half if not more. No tens of metres that I can recall but even 2 or 3 FULL ship's lengths (and more) would make them fully atmosphere capable.
Not capable of landing necessarily but they can definitely operate in-atmosphere, at least for Earthlike planets
That's what we saw in TLJ as well. It makes sense, given how effective repulsors seem to be at lifting things and how little (no?) effect they have on the environment even a large ship should be able to use them to hover.

User avatar
Batman
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15274
Joined: 2002-07-09 04:51am
Location: 'Very' mildly hopeful now DC recognized taking Clark's red trunks away was a bad idea
Contact:

Re: Star War Naval Combat

Post by Batman » 2018-09-27 06:37pm

Whenever did we capital ships operate in atmosphere in TLJ?
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

User avatar
Jub
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2873
Joined: 2012-08-06 07:58pm
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: Star War Naval Combat

Post by Jub » 2018-09-27 07:31pm

Batman wrote:
2018-09-27 06:37pm
Whenever did we capital ships operate in atmosphere in TLJ?
The Star Destroyer over Jedha was from Rogue One, my memory was telling me TLJ:

Image

User avatar
Batman
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15274
Joined: 2002-07-09 04:51am
Location: 'Very' mildly hopeful now DC recognized taking Clark's red trunks away was a bad idea
Contact:

Re: Star War Naval Combat

Post by Batman » 2018-09-27 07:50pm

Thanks for clearing that up. I was seriously wondering.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

User avatar
Elheru Aran
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12335
Joined: 2004-03-04 01:15am
Location: Georgia

Re: Star War Naval Combat

Post by Elheru Aran » 2018-09-27 07:52pm

Still a really great visual. And absolute proof that atmosphere operations really isn't an issue for ships of this size in SW. Which we really should've known since ESB, given that Cloud City is several times the size of an ISD IIRC.

We also see Venators in atmosphere several times in the Clone Wars series, notably IIRC in the Mon Calamari storyline, deploying Clonetroopers directly off the ships into the water.
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.

User avatar
Jub
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2873
Joined: 2012-08-06 07:58pm
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: Star War Naval Combat

Post by Jub » 2018-09-27 07:53pm

Batman wrote:
2018-09-27 07:50pm
Thanks for clearing that up. I was seriously wondering.
No worries. I hardly expect anybody to know all of Star Wars especially given the changes to canon and the lack of a versus debate.
Elheru Aran wrote:
2018-09-27 07:52pm
Still a really great visual. And absolute proof that atmosphere operations really isn't an issue for ships of this size in SW. Which we really should've known since ESB, given that Cloud City is several times the size of an ISD IIRC.

We also see Venators in atmosphere several times in the Clone Wars series, notably IIRC in the Mon Calamari storyline, deploying Clonetroopers directly off the ships into the water.
Yeah, and we finally see a non-Clone Wars era ship do it to put any debate around that to rest.

User avatar
Batman
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15274
Joined: 2002-07-09 04:51am
Location: 'Very' mildly hopeful now DC recognized taking Clark's red trunks away was a bad idea
Contact:

Re: Star War Naval Combat

Post by Batman » 2018-09-27 07:58pm

Cloud City is just 'parked' there though. For all we know it cannot move under its own power. For an ISD to do this means it can go into (and back out of) a planetary atmosphere under its own power.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

User avatar
Elheru Aran
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12335
Joined: 2004-03-04 01:15am
Location: Georgia

Re: Star War Naval Combat

Post by Elheru Aran » 2018-09-27 08:01pm

I mean, it's not like Clone Wars and the OT are *that* far apart or anything. Unless some sort of apocalypse scenario is envisaged for the end of the prequel era, there's really no reason to assume that the Imperial Starfleet would be using technology *worse* than that which we see deployed on a regular basis during the prequel era. While ISD's are certainly bigger than Venators, they're not tremendously larger (something like... 1/3rds longer? don't have the time to look up the stats atm).

If you want to involve the versus debate, it could be pointed out that we rarely ever saw the Federation bring starship-size craft into atmosphere :wink: the E-D was literally crashing, and I dunno about pretty much any other incidents. Though, notably, the E-D's saucer survived crashing quite well... so again, it may not be structural engineering that's a problem for the Federation either. But that's a whole other discussion.
Batman wrote:
2018-09-27 07:58pm
Cloud City is just 'parked' there though. For all we know it cannot move under its own power. For an ISD to do this means it can go into (and back out of) a planetary atmosphere under its own power.
That's a fair enough point, but it's still a substantial enough achievement. And honestly, given that it's above a gas giant, bigger than Earth, with a correspondingly stronger gravitational force, but still within the atmosphere far enough to have comfortable air pressure outdoors (see docking platforms)... though granted possibly the city is surrounded by some kind of atmospheric force bubble, but there's no indication of such. I'm still saying it's cool, okay :P
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.

User avatar
Jub
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2873
Joined: 2012-08-06 07:58pm
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: Star War Naval Combat

Post by Jub » 2018-09-27 08:09pm

Elheru Aran wrote:
2018-09-27 08:01pm
I mean, it's not like Clone Wars and the OT are *that* far apart or anything. Unless some sort of apocalypse scenario is envisaged for the end of the prequel era, there's really no reason to assume that the Imperial Starfleet would be using technology *worse* than that which we see deployed on a regular basis during the prequel era. While ISD's are certainly bigger than Venators, they're not tremendously larger (something like... 1/3rds longer? don't have the time to look up the stats atm).
I don't think it would be a tech issue, more of a cost and expected roll issue. The ISD carries landing barges and shuttle to get things to the ground and, assuming extra space is needed for landing gear and extra repulsors cutting those could leave more mass/volume for other goodies. Of course, now we know it can go deep into the atmosphere so the point is pretty moot anyway.

User avatar
Batman
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15274
Joined: 2002-07-09 04:51am
Location: 'Very' mildly hopeful now DC recognized taking Clark's red trunks away was a bad idea
Contact:

Re: Star War Naval Combat

Post by Batman » 2018-09-27 08:15pm

Jupiter (which is the largest planet we can directly observe) has a 'surface' gravity of less than 2.5 g. By Star Wars standards that's nothing.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

User avatar
KraytKing
Padawan Learner
Posts: 299
Joined: 2016-04-11 06:39pm
Location: US East Coast

Re: Star War Naval Combat

Post by KraytKing » 2018-09-27 08:16pm

Elheru Aran wrote:
2018-09-27 08:01pm
I mean, it's not like Clone Wars and the OT are *that* far apart or anything. Unless some sort of apocalypse scenario is envisaged for the end of the prequel era, there's really no reason to assume that the Imperial Starfleet would be using technology *worse* than that which we see deployed on a regular basis during the prequel era. While ISD's are certainly bigger than Venators, they're not tremendously larger (something like... 1/3rds longer? don't have the time to look up the stats atm).
Those were Acclamators. Less than half the length of an ISD, and specifically designed with planetary landings in mind. They have landing gear, for God's sake, I should hope they can enter an atmosphere. Something purpose built for ferrying troops is going to do better than an ISD, which is explicitly stated to be designed with naval combat as the focus.

Same with Cloud City. It's designed to be inside a planetary atmosphere, under high G, constantly. It isn't designed to fly around, carry fighters, or be shot at. Some kind of trade-off. Just because Star Wars can do things we don't know how to do doesn't mean they can do them all the time, with everything.

Regardless, I still concede. Too much fucking evidence.


Anyone feel like restarting the whole "hyperdrive in a gravity well" debate? That was another thing that was wrong on Jedha.
If you don't know your rights, you don't have any.

--Mace

The Old Testament has as much validity for the foundation of a religion as the pattern my recent case of insect bites formed on my ass.

--Solauren

User avatar
Jub
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2873
Joined: 2012-08-06 07:58pm
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: Star War Naval Combat

Post by Jub » 2018-09-27 08:55pm

I mean, we already knew that you could disable hyperdrive safties and jump away from a planet or interdiction field from Legends material. So it's not like seeing it happen in the newest Disney movies is that unexpected. It's still usually considered foolish, dangerous, and as a last resort but none of those things make it impossible if you have luck, skill, and the right equipment at your side.

User avatar
Eternal_Freedom
Castellan
Posts: 9427
Joined: 2010-03-09 02:16pm
Location: Bound in a nutshell

Re: Star War Naval Combat

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2018-09-28 11:53am

As an aside, we see Venators taking off from surface landing strips in ROTS (when Yoda is heading off to Kashyyyk) so they at least have landing gear etc as well.
Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.

User avatar
Jub
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2873
Joined: 2012-08-06 07:58pm
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: Star War Naval Combat

Post by Jub » 2018-09-28 02:21pm

Plus the whole Invisible Hand crash shows that the ship itself can easily survive even a mostly out of control and unpowered landing while allowing at least some occupants to survive the impact. That's some seriously tough stuff and solid dampening field work and even that's nothing compared to hundred and thousand G-forces under acceleration, turbolaser strikes, asteroid strikes, etc. Star Wars tech can take a damned beating and keep running.

User avatar
Lord Revan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10945
Joined: 2004-05-20 02:23pm
Location: Zone:classified

Re: Star War Naval Combat

Post by Lord Revan » 2018-09-28 03:24pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:
2018-09-28 11:53am
As an aside, we see Venators taking off from surface landing strips in ROTS (when Yoda is heading off to Kashyyyk) so they at least have landing gear etc as well.
We saw one landed in Kashyyyk as well behind the trees so Venators can land even in on regular surface of a planet not just prepared landing strips.
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n

User avatar
Elheru Aran
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12335
Joined: 2004-03-04 01:15am
Location: Georgia

Re: Star War Naval Combat

Post by Elheru Aran » 2018-09-28 03:47pm

KraytKing wrote:
2018-09-27 08:16pm

Anyone feel like restarting the whole "hyperdrive in a gravity well" debate? That was another thing that was wrong on Jedha.
Some discussion of that here.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=167342 (mostly on the second page)

No particular conclusion was reached, but it seems fair enough to say that for whatever reason it's a very uncommon move, only done either in extremity or by hotshot pilots. Certainly trying to escape the planetary eruption of a Death Star shot is 'in extremity'...
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.

Post Reply