How could the Old Republic have been saved?

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How could the Old Republic have been saved?

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-08-22 02:04pm

Inspired by this discussion, and others like it:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=159514&start=2550
FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-08-22 09:08am
NecronLord wrote:
2018-08-22 05:52am
I'm not saying they invented war droids.

The pro-Thrawn argument is "The Corrupt Republic could never withstand the Vong."

Until Palpatine and his goons manipulated the decay of the Republic to their own benefit, the Geonosians were members of the Republic, so were the Colicoids and many other species best known for building war droids. The galaxy was never truly demilitarised, it simply had private armies of war droids that could have and would have been turned on the Vong if those internal divisions had not been exploited to brew into a war that was then manipulated by backstabbing to reduce the galaxy's war-droid manufacturers to penury and for a long time ban (!) assassin droids (SWEU - WEG various sources).
This assumes that the Republic would be able to get all of these various Republic members to send their forces to work as a united front against the Vong, and not engage in various power grabs and internal fighting. Or decide to turtle up and only concern themselves with their own systems, letting their neighbors perish. Dooku may have united the Confederacy and made them into a rival power against the Republic under Sidious/Palpatine's orders, but they still have big beefs against the Republic for various reasons, as well as their own petty ambitions. A crisis like the Vong would be an ample opportunity to do so.

The New Republic also had to deal with political in-fighting due to Senate micromanagement of the war effort. This didn't happen in the Clone War, but such a scenario might happen with the Vong.

Without the Empire, it is just as likely that they do a Borsk Fey'yla and use this as a political opportunity for power. Or even worse, do a Game of Thrones and take out political rivals militarily instead of fighting the real threat. Palpatine may have lit the match, but the gasoline was already there and just waiting for some fool to ignite a spark. Say an ambitious leader of the Techno Union comes to power and wants to put their Battledroids to good use on the Genosians for whatever reason.

This also assumes that there isn't political gridlock in the Senate on what to do, as well as the Jedi being decisive as the Vong steamroll through outer planets. The Mandalorians did the same thing a few thousand years earlier, and it required a Jedi going rogue for the tide to turn, and that was with the Republic having a standing army at the time. They were still slapped around by the unknown conquerors due to lack of Jedi action until one of them(Revan) went rogue and led some Jedi volunteers to lead the Republic army.

The Jedi fulfilled a similar roll in the Clone Wars, as the Galactic Republic didn't seem to have experienced commanders, and overly relied on the Jedi to act as their tactical and military leaders.
Argument: Palpatine overthrowing the Republic was necessary to defend against the Vong, because the Republic would never be able to do so.
Response: Palpatine gutted the militia forces of the Old Republic most able to fight the Vong, destroying much technical infrastructure and banning advancement (though he did not stick to this and developed various illegal war droids of course) in the field of military robotics.

While we know that the Empire developed many superweapons that would be of use against the Vong, their main superweapon, the Death Star, suffered many delays in construction as the Geonosians were in isolation and uninclined to help anyone (Legends) or exterminated (Canon).

Keeping the Geonosians as a thriving culture in the Republic would be a wiser course of action. A Great Weapon constructed by Republic Geonosians would probably be built faster and more securely, if the Republic could be convinced of the need for such a thing.
Or they make a play for power and become conquerors of a Galactic sector if they want to. See above.


I will admit I have a hard time buying into the 'Vong would knock over the Old Republic' narrative, I am still very attached to the original vision of the Old Republic.
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The Old Republic was the Republic of legend, greater than distance or time. No need to note where it was or whence it came, only to know that...it was the Republic.

Once, under the wise rule of the Senate and the protection of the Jedi Knights, the Republic throve and grew. But as often happens when wealth and power pass beyond the admirable and attain the awesome, then appear those evil ones who have greed to match.

So it was with the Republic at its height. Like the greatest of trees, able to withstand any external attack, the Republic rotted from within though the danger was not visible from outside.

Aided and abetted by restless, power-hungry individuals within the government, and the massive organs of commerce, the ambitious Senator Palpatine caused himself to be elected President of the Republic. He promised to reunite the disaffected among the people and to restore the remembered glory of the Republic.
The Vong were so fearsome that they waited decades after their first spies arrived before mounting an attack. THere's no grounds for Thrawn's belief that the Republic could not defeat them. If anything an attack by biotech sadist jihadists would galvanize the Republic in a way it might well have benefited from while it crushed them.

The Republic did not have a strong central military. It did not need one'; there's no reason to think that without Palpatine's antics the likes of the Trade Federation (relatively honest people before decades of sith manipulations) would not rally to defend their bottom lines Republic long enough for the likes of Corellia, Kuat, Rendili and so on to be switched to wartime production and armies to be raised and Great Weapons to be built.

Thrawn's love of militarism gave him a distorted idea of the supposed weakness of the Old Republic. Of course, he was banished by the Chiss for crimes of aggression so persuading his own people to join the Republic isn't on.
There was also the key fact that any form of fight would be led by the Jedi, who would be rather vulnerable to Vong weapons and unable to do anything force wise against them due to Cortosis and other bullshit. That was the big concern. The Jedi are the Republic's crutch, and the Vong are almost tailor designed to be able to sidestep the powers of the Jedi. The Jedi can also be terrible at reacting to external problems due to taking their sweet time with analysis to see what's going on. See the Mandalorian and Jedi Civil War. The Republic is always dependent on the Jedi to get their coals out of the fire. And when the Jedi are incapable of action, the galaxy burns for it.

This doesn't address the concern that Thrawn, Palpatine, or anyone else who knew about them could have simply warned the Republic, and given them time to get ready properly. But Palpatine wanted to be in charge, and burned the galaxy to do so.
And my take on this subject:
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-08-22 01:44pm
Again: there is only one government in Star Wars canon which managed to achieve a prolonged period of relatively stable and peaceful galactic government- the Old Republic, with the Jedi Order as its protectors. They had a thousand year run before the films, before Palpatine destroyed it all and plunged the galaxy into a new dark age. The New Republic's failures are due to them trying to rebuild a functioning society out of the debris after Palpatine obliterated a millennium of peace.
The Republic was flawed, of course. Failing, arguably, by Phantom Menace, and certainly by Attack of the Clones, though much of that was due to Sith machinations. And yet, it has the single best track record of creating a relatively peaceful, stable galactic civilization of any civilization across a time span of millennia- far better than that of the Empire. And it did it while maintaining a diverse society and a government that was at least semi-democratic.

So, what sort of reforms would have enabled the Old Republic to survive, presuming that Palpatine and Maul die in a freak accident sometime around Phantom Menace? Alternately, if Palpatine is still alive, what actions would be necessary to counteract his influence successfully and maintain the Republic, presuming it is even possible?
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Re: How could the Old Republic have been saved?

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-08-22 06:41pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-08-22 02:04pm
The Republic was flawed, of course. Failing, arguably, by Phantom Menace, and certainly by Attack of the Clones, though much of that was due to Sith machinations. And yet, it has the single best track record of creating a relatively peaceful, stable galactic civilization of any civilization across a time span of millennia- far better than that of the Empire. And it did it while maintaining a diverse society and a government that was at least semi-democratic.

So, what sort of reforms would have enabled the Old Republic to survive, presuming that Palpatine and Maul die in a freak accident sometime around Phantom Menace? Alternately, if Palpatine is still alive, what actions would be necessary to counteract his influence successfully and maintain the Republic, presuming it is even possible?
1. Palpatine or no Palpatine, there needs to be more order in the Senate so that Senators who haven't been recognized don't interrupt the testimony of those who have been recognized, or called on to speak. Such as ailing planetary leaders who have just had their planet invaded.
2. Like it or not, the Republic needs a standing way to defend themselves besides the Jedi. The Jedi are meant to be the peacekeepers of the galaxy. And they're already overly taxed keeping the peace. If that's too horrifying to think of for an organization with no real enemies around the time of the Rise of the Empire, build up the existing organization that's meant for building the peace(see 3).
3. Build up the Sector Rangers. The Old Republic relies too much on the various sectors within it to police themselves, and only allow real jedi involvement. And since the Jedi can't be everywhere at once, heavily fund the Sector Rangers to deal with all the various problems such as pirates, smugglers, slavers, etc.
4. Give the Jedi, the Sector Rangers, or someone else, more of a free hand in investigating political corruption. There is so much under the table and over the table trading going on in the senate that benefits the senators, and not the people, that will need to be corrected. Start with the Outer sectors, as there will be less political resistance from the real power of the galaxy, the Core sectors. Than move inward as investigations turn over new evidence.
5. Reform the Courts. They need to act swifter, more decisively, and not be viewed as being so glacial that a planet will remain invaded even if proof is presented before them, the Senate making a decision is viewed as the faster option. Or having someone like Nute Gunray get away with multiple trials over a decade and facing no consequences.

This may not be enough, but it could make the Republic a more functional government.
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Re: How could the Old Republic have been saved?

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-08-22 07:12pm

FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-08-22 06:41pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-08-22 02:04pm
The Republic was flawed, of course. Failing, arguably, by Phantom Menace, and certainly by Attack of the Clones, though much of that was due to Sith machinations. And yet, it has the single best track record of creating a relatively peaceful, stable galactic civilization of any civilization across a time span of millennia- far better than that of the Empire. And it did it while maintaining a diverse society and a government that was at least semi-democratic.

So, what sort of reforms would have enabled the Old Republic to survive, presuming that Palpatine and Maul die in a freak accident sometime around Phantom Menace? Alternately, if Palpatine is still alive, what actions would be necessary to counteract his influence successfully and maintain the Republic, presuming it is even possible?
1. Palpatine or no Palpatine, there needs to be more order in the Senate so that Senators who haven't been recognized don't interrupt the testimony of those who have been recognized, or called on to speak. Such as ailing planetary leaders who have just had their planet invaded.
2. Like it or not, the Republic needs a standing way to defend themselves besides the Jedi. The Jedi are meant to be the peacekeepers of the galaxy. And they're already overly taxed keeping the peace. If that's too horrifying to think of for an organization with no real enemies around the time of the Rise of the Empire, build up the existing organization that's meant for building the peace(see 3).
3. Build up the Sector Rangers. The Old Republic relies too much on the various sectors within it to police themselves, and only allow real jedi involvement. And since the Jedi can't be everywhere at once, heavily fund the Sector Rangers to deal with all the various problems such as pirates, smugglers, slavers, etc.
4. Give the Jedi, the Sector Rangers, or someone else, more of a free hand in investigating political corruption. There is so much under the table and over the table trading going on in the senate that benefits the senators, and not the people, that will need to be corrected. Start with the Outer sectors, as there will be less political resistance from the real power of the galaxy, the Core sectors. Than move inward as investigations turn over new evidence.
5. Reform the Courts. They need to act swifter, more decisively, and not be viewed as being so glacial that a planet will remain invaded even if proof is presented before them, the Senate making a decision is viewed as the faster option. Or having someone like Nute Gunray get away with multiple trials over a decade and facing no consequences.

This may not be enough, but it could make the Republic a more functional government.
For the first point, it seems a fairly minor procedural matter, but some stricter guidelines on that probably couldn't hurt.

For the second, I can honestly see where the Republic is coming from on not having a standing military. They have no external peers who can threaten them (unless you go into Legends canon and bring in the Yuzhan Vong, and even then, the Republic has plenty of private/local military forces, plus the Jedi. Though actually, therein lies the biggest threat- those damn private armies. A private corporation should not be able to outgun the federal government, end of story. So I might go the other way, and try to set tighter limits on private armed forces. Other concessions may have to be offered to the mega-corporations to get them to agree, though. Or you could play them against each other, ie "Hey Senator from the Banking Clan, the Trade Federation is getting a bit too big for its boots, don't you agree?" Without the Sith drawing them all into an alliance, these people might be more competitors. Alternatively, as a last resort, encourage more non-corporate militias, to try to create a balance of power type situation.

For the third and fourth points, I agree completely. An additional benefit would be that cutting back on corruption in the Rim may make Rim worlds less inclined to revolt (at least on the level of individual citizens), if they see the Republic government actually working for their benefit- but there will probably be stiff, likely violent resistance from the Hutts. Using the Jedi less will also make it easier to preserve their aura of invulnerability, and thus make it easier for them to keep the peace. Hold the Jedi in reserve for the most serious situations, not putting out every damn brush fire. Like using them to stomp on the inevitable Hutt uprising.

For the fifth, I'm not sure how that would work, given that we see little of legal procedure in canon (hmm, wasn't Ashoka put on trial in The Clone Wars?). But clearing up the courts might be a natural extension of cracking down on political corruption. One of Windu's reasons for trying to summarily execute Palpatine is that he controlled the courts.
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Re: How could the Old Republic have been saved?

Post by Lord Revan » 2018-08-22 10:41pm

I would have to say noway or at least "not without massive organizational changes you probably wouldn't have time to impliment". Unless it's been retconned away Palpatine didn't take a healthy system and personally destroy it but rather exploited the rot already present that had been building up for centuries.

in essence they was probably no practical way of saving the republic, even if Palpatine didn't exist or was caught before he got into position to do harm, there probably would have been another "Palpatine" (I don't mean a sith lord but rather a charismatic dictator), as it seemed that by the time of Episode I the jedi were getting overwhelmed in keeping the republic together and organizations that could have helped either didn't exist at all and it would take time to (re-)build them, or they didn't function proper and probably were part of problem (like the courts).

To save the republic (if such thing would have be possible) we would have to track the "point of no return" for the rot and cure the decay before it. Trying to fix the leaking roof when the foundations have rotted out is pointless after all.
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Re: How could the Old Republic have been saved?

Post by Lord Revan » 2018-08-23 03:29am

I'll be out of the country for few days so I can't argue any points during that time(I won't have forum access), so if needed I'll explain what I mean when I get back.
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Re: How could the Old Republic have been saved?

Post by NecronLord » 2018-08-23 05:35am

Corruption - My earlier comments

The most revealing source on this topic is surely Plagueis which shows the degree to which the sith were actually responsible for the corruption of the Republic, such as it is.

And the Republic honestly isn't that corrupt - we don't see bribes being paid on an everyday basis, nor does anyone we see from the Republic police - for instance - seem to expect such things, though of course we only see them on murder investigations most of the time.

We also don't know how true some things are. The Courts are gridlocked and inefficient? So much so that they do not function? Is that true... or is Palpatine simply keen not having the Niemodians cross examined by a talented lawyer? Does Doltray Dofine look like someone who would be cool on a witness stand? He's not exactly calm and collected when confronted by Jedi.


The thing is the conspiracy presented in Darth Plageuis owes a lot conceptually to New World Order type antics, in which the majority of those affected by the corruption of the Republic regularly visit Darth Plagueis (and then Palpatine's) secret retreat to recieve marching orders and to make their back-room details, and it is made clear that a lot of this is directly orchastrated by the sith.

It is not institutional corruption in the way of a real world failed state, it is corruption in the mould tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists fear; top down managed corruption.

Whether an unfortunate hyperspace accident happening the year before Phantom Menace and killing all three (!) Sith Lords alive at that time would be sufficient to save the Republic is an open question, but we should not forget that of the perhaps ten thousand senators, two thousand were prepared to stick their neck out and oppose Chancellor Palpatine even at the end.

Q. How could the Republic have been Saved if Palpatine lived?

To directly answer this thread's main question in the Legends continuity.

Of course, the EU gives us a historic example of the coup of the sort that Mace Windu suggested in the replacement by force of Contispex XIX by the Jedi Grandmaster Biel Ductavis as Supreme Chancellor, leading to a millennia long period of expansion and growth; and again in the New Sith Wars the Jedi had taken control of the Republic as an emergency measure - seemingly with senate approval in this instance - and the Ruusan Reformation after the defeat of the Sith led to a thousand years of peace.

There is no reason to assume that if Windu put his saber through Palpatine's face it would not have been a Jedi dictatorship followed by them doing as previous generations of Jedi did and surrendering their power when the remaining conspirators and agents of corruption had been hunted down and defeated. They have a good track record in this. There are probably even holocrons of the Jedi who were involved to consult for their expertise in the matter.

Though of course in this instance there would still be an active CIS though one without Grievous at its head. Whether military defeat of the Confederacy would be possible or a two state solution negotiated with the Seperatist Parliament of Clone Wars fame would be required is an open question but certainly peace could be achieved.

tl;dr Anakin's treason is meaningful, and doomed the Old Republic.
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Re: How could the Old Republic have been saved?

Post by Zixinus » 2018-08-23 03:48pm

A mayor point just occurred to me: around what and who would the call and enforcement of any reforms happen?

The obvious answer is the Jedi. Which in turns begs the question, how can be the Jedi be convinced that they need to reform the Republic once more, create a force that are partly replacing them? I can easily manage to imagine this if they "win" the Clone Wars (Order 66 not going out) but before all that? If the Clone Wars don't happen, if Palpatine's plot fizzles quietly away with his quiet death?

I also wonder whether the problem with the Old Republic may also stem from becoming over-reliant on the Jedi. The Force allows them to do so much that more mortal people would always seem a little behind.
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Re: How could the Old Republic have been saved?

Post by Q99 » 2018-08-24 03:05pm

The main thing is really getting rid of the Sith, because no matter what reform you do? Palpatine will shift his plans to sabotage or take advantage of it.

As long as they're active, reform is merely delying the inevitable and some reforms will be hijacked badly. If they're not, then suddenly a lot of obstacles vanish and routes to reform happen, including more time to act.

The collapse of the Republic was very far from inevitable. It wasn't even all that sick for the problems it had.

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Re: How could the Old Republic have been saved?

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-08-25 01:05pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-08-22 02:04pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-08-22 01:44pm
Again: there is only one government in Star Wars canon which managed to achieve a prolonged period of relatively stable and peaceful galactic government- the Old Republic, with the Jedi Order as its protectors. They had a thousand year run before the films, before Palpatine destroyed it all and plunged the galaxy into a new dark age. The New Republic's failures are due to them trying to rebuild a functioning society out of the debris after Palpatine obliterated a millennium of peace.
The Republic was flawed, of course. Failing, arguably, by Phantom Menace, and certainly by Attack of the Clones, though much of that was due to Sith machinations. And yet, it has the single best track record of creating a relatively peaceful, stable galactic civilization of any civilization across a time span of millennia- far better than that of the Empire. And it did it while maintaining a diverse society and a government that was at least semi-democratic.

So, what sort of reforms would have enabled the Old Republic to survive, presuming that Palpatine and Maul die in a freak accident sometime around Phantom Menace? Alternately, if Palpatine is still alive, what actions would be necessary to counteract his influence successfully and maintain the Republic, presuming it is even possible?
Figured this needed it's own response in the appropriate thread:

Which is why I'm pointing out that the Old Republic, in Legends Canon, survived because it got lucky. The Mandalorian war and the Jedi Civil War nearly crippled the galaxy, and it's only due to the actions of a few rogue players that the galaxy didn't get turned into the Sith Empire or eaten by Darth Nihlus. Knights of the Old Republic I and II could be construed as showing what happens to the Republic when the Jedi aren't there to fix everything, from being broiled in war as in I, or in hiding as in II(or reflecting on the problem as shown in the Mandalorian War prior to I). All of this with no Palpatine or True Sith required..

There's a reason why in Knights of the Old Republic II, you spend most of your time cleaning up the mess left by the Sith, Jedi, and the Republic. And G0-T0/Goto considers the Republic's problems at the time because of years/centuries of bad decisions stacking on top of each other resulting in an unsalvageable mess that he is forced to save. For G0-T0, it was the bureaucracy preventing any decisions to be made while infrastructure was so fragile that one fuel disruption crippled the Republic economy overnight.

G0-T0 also focused on averting the Hutts attention by creating a rival criminal organization for them to fight instead of the Republic. As well as ensuring necessary supplies got to their destination via smuggling. This is while also hiring the Jedi Exile to stabilize the messes on worlds key to the Republic, such as resolving the civil war on Onderon and securing a new fuel supply for Telos.

The Old Republic had some fundamental problems that were patched over by Revan, the Jedi Exile, and the crime boss droid G0-T0 until the next crisis a few centuries later with the True Sith invasion. And this is showing what happens when the Jedi aren't there to save the day, things fall apart so badly that people have to go outside the law to fix it.

If the Republic fixed these messes which led to the millenia of peace, huzzah. But there was clearly issues that never seemed properly addressed. Which is why the Republic's over reliance on the Jedi really seemed to doom them in the end, as having everything balance on the warrior monks being able to be everywhere squashed them, much to Palpatine's delight when he used them as cannon fodder in a pointless war.

By Anakin Skywalker's time, such problems seemed to still be around. For instance, the Hutts are still a sizable enough force in the galaxy that he and his mother were enslaved by them.
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Re: How could the Old Republic have been saved?

Post by NecronLord » 2018-08-25 04:43pm

The Luck is not luck, it is the will of the Light Side. The Sith could never have emerged as a threat without the power of the Dark Side - Naga Sadow could not have written the Sith into history without it - disclaiming the Light Side as 'luck' is disingenuous.

The Jedi are the protectors of peace and justice in the Republic. The Light Side of the Force is the Ally of the Jedi, and a powerful ally it is. The Jedi won all of those fights, in the end, because that was the way of things. KotOR II which you are arguing based from very heavily bangs the predestination drum, as such all those guys were destined for destruction.

It is also very selective to say that because KotOR II was an era of decline that such eras as the Ruusan Reformation after were equally so. Simply put there is a paucity of information there between TOR and TPM.
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Re: How could the Old Republic have been saved?

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-08-26 09:45am

NecronLord wrote:
2018-08-25 04:43pm
The Luck is not luck, it is the will of the Light Side. The Sith could never have emerged as a threat without the power of the Dark Side - Naga Sadow could not have written the Sith into history without it - disclaiming the Light Side as 'luck' is disingenuous.

The Jedi are the protectors of peace and justice in the Republic. The Light Side of the Force is the Ally of the Jedi, and a powerful ally it is. The Jedi won all of those fights, in the end, because that was the way of things. KotOR II which you are arguing based from very heavily bangs the predestination drum, as such all those guys were destined for destruction.

It is also very selective to say that because KotOR II was an era of decline that such eras as the Ruusan Reformation after were equally so. Simply put there is a paucity of information there between TOR and TPM.
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And remember that the Hutts are still such a problem that even during the Ruusan Reformation, they aren't dealt with, and just seemingly ignored. To the point that we see blatant slavery, human(sentient?) trafficking, piracy, narcotics and weapons flowing around by various organizations. The Hutts are enough of a power that during a time of war, both sides are doing what they can to get the Hutts on their side for access to their territory for transporting their armies and navies.

We don't see law enforcement taking bribes, but we do see areas where there doesn't seem to be any law enforcement at all. One can merely look at planets where someone like Death Watch or pirates like Hondo have set up themselves as the local leadership, often in Republic territory.

And all of these problems seemed to exist since before the Clone Wars, they were just exacerbated by the war and the Jedi being focused elsewhere. The question we run into is during this millennium of peace, was blatant warlord and gangster control of Republic territory included as part of that peace and just sort of shrugged off by the Jedi and the Republic due to the Jedi putting out brushfires elsewhere?
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Re: How could the Old Republic have been saved?

Post by NecronLord » 2018-08-26 10:06am

Except defeating the Hutts is not necessarily the goal of the Republic, and indeed when it was their goal (the Pius Dea Crusades) it very quickly escalated into general crusades against all non-humans.

It is irrelevant to the question of this thread whether the Republic can be saved whether it went on some sapient rights crusade against Hutt Space (nor of course did anyone apart from the New Republic in Disney canon and we don't know much about that).
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Re: How could the Old Republic have been saved?

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-08-26 10:31am

NecronLord wrote:
2018-08-26 10:06am
Except defeating the Hutts is not necessarily the goal of the Republic, and indeed when it was their goal (the Pius Dea Crusades) it very quickly escalated into general crusades against all non-humans.

It is irrelevant to the question of this thread whether the Republic can be saved whether it went on some sapient rights crusade against Hutt Space (nor of course did anyone apart from the New Republic in Disney canon and we don't know much about that).
It does still point to problems with internal and/or external security if the Republic has regular problems dealing with a threat to the point that it can't control territory within it's borders, it opens up rebellion and/or invasion due to lack of enforcement, as Phantom Menace showed.
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Re: How could the Old Republic have been saved?

Post by NecronLord » 2018-08-26 10:34am

Or that they're not particularly interested in invading Hutt space and liberating the slaves. This is hardly surprising. Most cultures in history have not been interested in Damn Fool Idealistic Crusades.
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Re: How could the Old Republic have been saved?

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-08-26 10:46am

NecronLord wrote:
2018-08-26 10:34am
Or that they're not particularly interested in invading Hutt space and liberating the slaves. This is hardly surprising. Most cultures in history have not been interested in Damn Fool Idealistic Crusades.
Which is understandable, until it reaches the point that it affects your own citizens and all you can do is shrug. Such actions invite attacks of opportunity and with impunity. If warlord/pirate control of Republic worlds is considered a non-issue by the Senate, the invasion of Naboo or similar actions by internal and external players is inevitable.
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Re: How could the Old Republic have been saved?

Post by NecronLord » 2018-08-26 10:57am

There's no evidence of Hondo's world even being a Republic member world. It's a pirate base that is barely habitable. The Invasion of Naboo required extensive planning via Plagueis long in advance as in the book of the same name. It was during this planning that Plagueis found and recuited teenage Palpatine, at that time a wastrel. It is an exceptional case as evidenced by the fact that the Jedi expect negotiations to be over quickly and the matter to be easily resolved.
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Re: How could the Old Republic have been saved?

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-08-26 11:20am

Florrum is six parsecs away from Vanqor, a Republic world. That's rather spitting distance if it's just outside the border instead of inside it. Either way, close enough to be the Republic's problem when pirates are regularly kidnapping of Republic personnel and regularly making trouble.
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Re: How could the Old Republic have been saved?

Post by NecronLord » 2018-08-26 11:25am

You are arguing for borders in space? This is silly. The Republic is a million full member worlds and fifty million dependencies plus a billion or so bodies that are used by the Mining Guild (s) down the years. It occupies more than half of a galaxy bigger than the Milky Way, there are doubtless worlds that are not members, that are desolate or unused, abandoned mining colonies and more. Florrum had no obvious population - Ahsoka doesn't even consider finding another settlement and calling for backup - and we certainly do not know what Hondo was up to before the Clone Wars or how successful he was.

The presence of pirates on the galactic scale where the technology supports piracy is not an argument that the Republic is unstable, it's an argument that the technological conditions for piracy being an occupation exist. That's not the case in our world, simply because planet is small and tracking pirates down is technologically easy.

Space is big. Hyperspace is untraceable. Shithole planets like Florrum are all over the place.
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Re: How could the Old Republic have been saved?

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-08-26 11:59am

NecronLord wrote:
2018-08-26 11:25am
You are arguing for borders in space? This is silly. The Republic is a million full member worlds and fifty million dependencies plus a billion or so bodies that are used by the Mining Guild (s) down the years. It occupies more than half of a galaxy bigger than the Milky Way, there are doubtless worlds that are not members, that are desolate or unused, abandoned mining colonies and more.
All of which falls under the Republic borders on the map, making it within their territory. Of a civilization that's several millennia old. Their failure to police their own space, especially near a world like Vanqor, which was considered important enough to dispatch Jedi to to stop a civil war on, shows the lack of effort in policing their own space.

It isnt like the Old Republic is some new player on the map in a race to claim uncharted territory against a rival expanding power. The Republic being unwilling to have the logistics to secure what is within their borders shows their unwillingness to invest in the resources to do so. Where's the sector fleet policing the area and making sure people like Hondo aren't setting up shop on these worlds close to majorly populated worlds? This is why Navies have had ships in the local area of their colonies, to deal with these kind of threats near their colonies.
Florrum had no obvious population - Ahsoka doesn't even consider finding another settlement and calling for backup - and we certainly do not know what Hondo was up to before the Clone Wars or how successful he was.

The presence of pirates on the galactic scale where the technology supports piracy is not an argument that the Republic is unstable, it's an argument that the technological conditions for piracy being an occupation exist. That's not the case in our world, simply because planet is small and tracking pirates down is technologically easy.

Space is big. Hyperspace is untraceable. Shithole planets like Florrum are all over the place.
And Florrum is only six parsecs away from a member world. You'd think in cases of piracy, kidnapping, and drug smuggling, they'd do the occasional patrol to root out the local criminals from abandoned worlds. Failure to do so shows that outer-Republic members security is not a priority.

Space is infinite, and the Galactic Republic's resources are not. I understand that. But serious lack of investment in curtailing piracy aside from the Jedi and the woefully underfunded Sector Rangers shows the Republic's priorities for non-Core worlds.
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Re: How could the Old Republic have been saved?

Post by NecronLord » 2018-08-26 12:08pm

Do you know what six parsecs looks like?

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There are 28 known exoplanets in this radius.

Never mind that Vanqor was not only an active war zone at the time but a place where Dooku himself had just been fighting. Maybe its patrol forces aren't exactly firing on all thrusters?
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Re: How could the Old Republic have been saved?

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-08-26 12:30pm

And yet Han makes a big deal of navigating the Kessel Run in 12. To be fair, the area around Kessel is crazy, so that's not as big a deal as it sounds.

But we know that Hondo was around long enough to get established, and to become acquainted with Jango Fett and Aurra Sing.
On Boonta, he served as a cupbearer for Porla the Hutt. Hondo found out that the spice smugglers of Porla were asking for strange prices for their spice and that they were always caught by the Republic when they were bringing the spice to Porla. He whispered advice to his Master about these shady business deals. Porla was thankful to him and Ohnaka became Porla's personal advisor. After gaining Porla's trust, he made off with several other servants on Porla's skiff, bringing along Starhawk speeder bikes, Ubrikkian tanks and weapons. He then ventured to Florrum, where he founded a base.[1] At some later point, he also became familiar with bounty hunter Jango Fett whom he described to be a good friend and honorable man. He also came to know Aurra Sing and had a relationship with her.
Considering Jango died before the Clone Wars started, he'd have to have been established before the war, and it seems he established himself on Florrum.

So unless Jango or Hondo time travelled, he got himself established before the Clone Wars even started. Unless it takes year to patrol the six parsecs around them, they probably should have noticed the pirates setting up in the neighboring system during a regular patrol. Unless of course, regular patrols weren't a thing.
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Re: How could the Old Republic have been saved?

Post by NecronLord » 2018-08-26 12:32pm

Unless of course that is Wiki editorializing and we don't know at what point he knew Jango.

Yep.
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Re: How could the Old Republic have been saved?

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-08-26 02:41pm

NecronLord wrote:
2018-08-26 12:32pm
Unless of course that is Wiki editorializing and we don't know at what point he knew Jango.

Yep.
Long enough that he didn't know Boba, as he joked to Aurra that Boba was one of his. And since Boba aged naturally, that's a decade.
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Re: How could the Old Republic have been saved?

Post by NecronLord » 2018-08-28 03:06pm

So I have had a look at some of the Florrum episodes and I can't find Hondo saying Jango met him while he was on Florrum, all that's in the episode is Hondo saying: "Sorry about your father, he was a friend, and an honourable man," I can't get access to this Clone Wars Visual Dictionary Ultimate Battles which is the reference cited though; I am skeptical that it says that however, it would be interesting to find more.

Of course, other references souces such as the SW Databank point out that it is off the main hyperspace routes and that part of Hondo's business was salvage, he may not even have turned to piracy before the war. I will keep an eye out but short of buying the book I don't know that I can find out more to back my instinct that that is simply the Wiki editor's idea of the order of events.
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Re: How could the Old Republic have been saved?

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-09-07 12:00pm

Okay, let's push past whatever Hondo's backstory is. Point is, in a time of peace, someone like him shouldn't exist within, or near Republic space. It's understandable that it's harder to find and combat pirates during a time of war. Same with the level of forces Deathwatch was able to acquire weaponry, ships, and people to be their own little terrorist force(though it's unknown how much they acquired in the war vs before). But it seems inexplicable that such a level of free reign is given to the various illegal and violent underworld forces of the galaxy in a time of 'great peace and stability', no matter how big the galaxy is.

The Black Sun, after all, seemed to never worry about some Republic Navy coming to wipe out their vessels, showing the problem with the Old Republic's enforcement of the criminal elements. Which brings us to wondering if Naboo was given action because it was symbolically important to the galaxy at large because it was a Sector capital.

If the Republic Senate had somehow gotten past the deadlock, and pushed for stopping the Trade Federation blockade, could they have done so prior to the Clone Wars? Did they have a dedicated Navy to do so, and did they have the resources to freely stop such an action? If Naboo was an important world to the Senate, what about non-important worlds, such as say, Mandalore(who was a Republic member prior to the Clone Wars), or Onderon, experienced a naval blockade by the Trade Federation? Would the Republic A) be able to stop it? and B) care?
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