The point I'm trying to make is that the GAR is completely unlike any military to have ever existed, in that it functions exactly like an army of robots, but made of meat. One Legends source refers to them as "wet droids." They are treated wholly differently to volunteer or conscript armies, because there is no consideration for their psychological well being. They don't need it, or they do, and don't get it, and break down.
Republic citizenry only ever sees them in armor, so they physically look like droids. There should be no crack in this propaganda wall. They are soldiers, that is their life, and that is all they will ever need.
The majority of travel time in Star Wars is spent in hyperspace, so I'm not sure where this notion of "constantly under threat of annihilation" is coming from. They are much better off than real world military in that respect. They have a physically guaranteed safe zone.
Re: Slavery in Star Wars
Posted: 2018-09-01 03:40pm
by NecronLord
Again, you can say that is what they are but that's not what is depicted in the Clone Wars.
Re: Slavery in Star Wars
Posted: 2018-09-01 05:21pm
by Zixinus
A vehicle going from orbit to landing has several hours (at least) during which it can be shot at by everything from orbital defenses (hopefully not active but war never allows for such comfortable rules) to a bot with a big enough gun on the ground.
The idea that the clones were seen, and should only have been seen, purely as wetware droids seems to be your idea. I can't recall people seeing them or the public treating them as such (although we don't see much perspective on how the general republic citizen, especially how they regarded the clones). If anything, that they were organic and human was supposed to be a positive thing when compared to their actually droid enemies. Not just form the perspective of organic-vs-synthetic, but from an approachability standpoint. That your soldiers are capable of empathy would be bonus point from a propaganda standpoint.
Re: Slavery in Star Wars
Posted: 2018-09-01 05:44pm
by Batman
Where do you get 'hours' from? It's usually less than 10 minutes from surface to lightspeed and the other way round.
Re: Slavery in Star Wars
Posted: 2018-09-02 03:08pm
by KraytKing
Okay, I'll concede. My position relies too much on my own conjecture. I must say, I like my own version of the Clone Wars and the corruption of the Jedi much more than what Lucasfilm tried to pull, but this is a fact-based argument I got myself into.
I think that the uncomfortable transit period refers more to time on the Acclamators after a battle, not headed into it. Two entirely different forms of stress.
Re: Slavery in Star Wars
Posted: 2018-09-14 10:52pm
by FaxModem1
Anyway, getting back to the, you know, actual slaves. The ones who are actually referred to as such in the canon. What's the best way for the franchise to handle this? Could they make a Star Wars Spartacus movie? Would it be better to have something else theme wise?
Would it be better to just be ignored and be a random side element that occasionally shows up in Star Wars media?
Re: Slavery in Star Wars
Posted: 2018-09-14 11:09pm
by The Romulan Republic
Spartacus meets Star Wars would be amazing.
Re: Slavery in Star Wars
Posted: 2018-09-16 09:04am
by NecronLord
With the coda that I would strongly prefer the slaves to actually win.
Re: Slavery in Star Wars
Posted: 2018-09-19 10:41pm
by The Romulan Republic
Yes. I generally prefer my Star Wars reasonably optimistic- Rogue One is about as far as I'd like to see the films go towards being "dark".
Re: Slavery in Star Wars
Posted: 2018-09-20 04:22pm
by Batman
Rogue One and the Prequels were acceptable because we already knew the Good Guys would win in the end.
Re: Slavery in Star Wars
Posted: 2018-09-20 04:33pm
by KraytKing
I could stand for a bit more grittiness and realism in Star Wars, from time to time. Say, if they do end up making a Fett movie, or anything else concerning the Underworld. Also, maybe an Imperial atrocity here or there to show what they're actually fighting against, other than the rather abstract notion of Sith rule.
The current movies are just too light to be taken seriously.
Re: Slavery in Star Wars
Posted: 2018-09-20 05:54pm
by NecronLord
I still love this. Particularly the Jedi killing absolutely all the slavers as an example for others.
Re: Slavery in Star Wars
Posted: 2018-09-20 08:57pm
by KraytKing
It's so un-Jedi, I love it. It would be terrible for Master Yoda to do, but this is exactly how Palpatine seduced Jedi to the Dark Side. He gives them progressively more difficult moral choices, until eventually they're down to just "kill all the bad guys" instead of trying to save everyone and bring them to proper justice. Those slavers had families. They may have been loving parents caught in a bad job. Hell, there might have been some slaves left on that platform. But the Clone War became "us or them," the Jedi chose us, and now they all start turning to the dark side.
Blowing up that platform once they got the valuable cargo out would not have looked out of place if Tarkin ordered it. Plo Koon was flirting with the dark side, if he hadn't fallen already.
Re: Slavery in Star Wars
Posted: 2018-09-20 09:46pm
by FaxModem1
KraytKing wrote: ↑2018-09-20 08:57pm
It's so un-Jedi, I love it. It would be terrible for Master Yoda to do, but this is exactly how Palpatine seduced Jedi to the Dark Side. He gives them progressively more difficult moral choices, until eventually they're down to just "kill all the bad guys" instead of trying to save everyone and bring them to proper justice. Those slavers had families. They may have been loving parents caught in a bad job. Hell, there might have been some slaves left on that platform. But the Clone War became "us or them," the Jedi chose us, and now they all start turning to the dark side.
Blowing up that platform once they got the valuable cargo out would not have looked out of place if Tarkin ordered it. Plo Koon was flirting with the dark side, if he hadn't fallen already.
I think it's more of an allusion to Amistad, in which the Jedi can report that said slave fortress can be correctly stated as "does not exist".
Re: Slavery in Star Wars
Posted: 2018-09-21 10:38am
by KraytKing
Either way, it's still un-Jedi. That captain is more akin to Tarkin, even if his actions are motivated through altruistic intent.
Re: Slavery in Star Wars
Posted: 2018-09-21 10:47am
by Crazedwraith
I don't know the full context, but just from the clip I don't see how killing those people in combat and destroying the facility is any more "dark side" than just fighting on a war on soldier's terms is to start with.
In the middle of a war, arresting people is not the Jedi's job. That was part of the Jedi trap the clone wars represented (per the RotS novelisation) but I don't see how this worse than anything else.
Re: Slavery in Star Wars
Posted: 2018-09-21 01:02pm
by KraytKing
It isn't. That's the point. The Jedi, who are supposed to be peacekeepers, become soldiers. A soldier who doesn't look beyond the point of success at any means necessary is a darksider, but it doesn't much matter for those without the Force.
Re: Slavery in Star Wars
Posted: 2018-09-21 01:14pm
by Crazedwraith
Then it's not "progressively more difficult moral choices" like you said earlier is it?
Re: Slavery in Star Wars
Posted: 2018-09-21 01:54pm
by KraytKing
Well, sort of. AOTC had them start out as soldiers willing to do a lot for victory, skipping a few steps. Some episodes make a point of how there are certain things Jedi will not do for victory. t's been a while since I watched the show, but the most obvious is how Kenobi refuses to lead a frontal assault on a village on Ryloth because the Separatists have some of the villagers as hostages. Instead he takes in a commando infiltration force, suffers something like 90% casualties, and saves the villagers. Then comes this episode, where a Jedi casually gives the order to kill several dozen slavers rather than attempt to capture them and bring them to justice. Because capturing them wasn't expedient. That shows a progression.
So, they are presented with moral choices, I'm just sort of reading in between the lines of the show and the movies to make a clear progression. You may think otherwise, but this version makes sense to me.
Re: Slavery in Star Wars
Posted: 2018-09-21 01:58pm
by FaxModem1
KraytKing wrote: ↑2018-09-21 01:54pm
Well, sort of. AOTC had them start out as soldiers willing to do a lot for victory, skipping a few steps. Some episodes make a point of how there are certain things Jedi will not do for victory. t's been a while since I watched the show, but the most obvious is how Kenobi refuses to lead a frontal assault on a village on Ryloth because the Separatists have some of the villagers as hostages. Instead he takes in a commando infiltration force, suffers something like 90% casualties, and saves the villagers. Then comes this episode, where a Jedi casually gives the order to kill several dozen slavers rather than attempt to capture them and bring them to justice. Because capturing them wasn't expedient. That shows a progression.
So, they are presented with moral choices, I'm just sort of reading in between the lines of the show and the movies to make a clear progression. You may think otherwise, but this version makes sense to me.
I think you're confusing innocent hostage with enemy combatant.
Re: Slavery in Star Wars
Posted: 2018-09-21 02:06pm
by KraytKing
That was a bit of a bad example. A fairly common bit of dialogue that I think illustrates my point is "If we do stuff like X, then we become no better than who we fight" or something to that effect. This is clearly a Separatist-style move, though well short of some of the atrocities they've committed.
The point I keep coming back to is that it was done out of expedience. Those slavers had already lost their primary defenses, their leadership, and now their cargo. They had no reason to keep fighting if the Jedi offered surrender. Plo Koon, to use inflammatory language (sorry), gave no quarter.
Re: Slavery in Star Wars
Posted: 2018-09-21 02:30pm
by FaxModem1
KraytKing wrote: ↑2018-09-21 02:06pm
That was a bit of a bad example. A fairly common bit of dialogue that I think illustrates my point is "If we do stuff like X, then we become no better than who we fight" or something to that effect. This is clearly a Separatist-style move, though well short of some of the atrocities they've committed.
The point I keep coming back to is that it was done out of expedience. Those slavers had already lost their primary defenses, their leadership, and now their cargo. They had no reason to keep fighting if the Jedi offered surrender. Plo Koon, to use inflammatory language (sorry), gave no quarter.
Whether we like it or not, the Jedi are not as fair as we are. In the Clone Wars movie, Obi Wan commits a war crime by making an action of false surrender to the Separatists to buy time for his army to win against the Separatists, then forces the Separatist leaders to surrender when the tide of battle has turned. War Crimes are apparently nothing new for the Jedi Order in war.
Re: Slavery in Star Wars
Posted: 2018-09-21 02:43pm
by KraytKing
...Yes? That's pretty much my point. They do bad shit in war, in order to win. Eventually, they do bad shit outside of war, just because they know they're right. Then they become Sith. It's basically what happened to Jorus C'Baoth in Outbound Flight.
Re: Slavery in Star Wars
Posted: 2018-09-21 02:50pm
by FaxModem1
KraytKing wrote: ↑2018-09-21 02:43pm
...Yes? That's pretty much my point. They do bad shit in war, in order to win. Eventually, they do bad shit outside of war, just because they know they're right. Then they become Sith. It's basically what happened to Jorus C'Baoth in Outbound Flight.
If your argument is that the Clone Wars made them morally worse, they'd have to have a higher standard before the war, to show that they were morally compromised by the war. False surrenders right off the bat while being smug about it shows that eliminating a gang of slavers really isn't evidence of being morally compromised in position, unless you can show us the curve of degradation.
Re: Slavery in Star Wars
Posted: 2018-09-21 03:06pm
by KraytKing
Obviously, the Jedi as discussed in the OT and associated then-canon are not the Jedi we see in the PT and the show. So something happened. I'm giving the creators of both the benefit of the doubt and ascribing non-stupid story justifications to their works. I may be wrong. I like my version of the universe. You are welcome to your own. I'm not trying to tell you this is the end-all, be-all, just that this makes some sense.
