Returning classic character announced for Episode 9

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Re: Returning classic character announced for Episode 9

Post by ray245 » 2018-07-17 08:21pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-07-17 08:18pm
As a bit of world-building its nice, maybe. But when does it matter to her role in the story? Never. So its hard to convince me that not having a main character with a royal title somehow cripples the ST.
It helps the story from a world-building perspective. That there's a whole world that exists outside of the main plot/narrative. The ST feels claustrophobic in terms of world-building. Things seem to exist merely to serve the plot.
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Re: Returning classic character announced for Episode 9

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-07-17 08:52pm

ray245 wrote:
2018-07-17 08:21pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-07-17 08:18pm
As a bit of world-building its nice, maybe. But when does it matter to her role in the story? Never. So its hard to convince me that not having a main character with a royal title somehow cripples the ST.
It helps the story from a world-building perspective. That there's a whole world that exists outside of the main plot/narrative. The ST feels claustrophobic in terms of world-building. Things seem to exist merely to serve the plot.
That's largely a fair criticism, yes.
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Re: Returning classic character announced for Episode 9

Post by Batman » 2018-07-17 09:57pm

The same goes for the OT, and nobody gave a damn
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Re: Returning classic character announced for Episode 9

Post by Gandalf » 2018-07-17 10:00pm

Yeah, it helps that the OT has a few decades of nostalgia and nerd excuses to cover up its issues.
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Re: Returning classic character announced for Episode 9

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-07-17 10:09pm

Indeed.

I could nitpick the hell out of the OT if I wanted to, but you don't score Nerd Points on the internet for doing it.

Edit: I can't wait for when the fans who grew up with the ST are middle-aged and going on about how TLJ is a classic and episode XIV is the worst movie ever. :D
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Re: Returning classic character announced for Episode 9

Post by Q99 » 2018-07-19 10:58pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-07-17 10:09pm
Edit: I can't wait for when the fans who grew up with the ST are middle-aged and going on about how TLJ is a classic and episode XIV is the worst movie ever. :D
Ugh, XIV. They're just re-hashing the Neo-Sith plotline again! And does every movie have to spend time on Yoda's home planet now?

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Re: Returning classic character announced for Episode 9

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-07-19 11:02pm

I'd actually really like to see Yoda's home planet.
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Re: Returning classic character announced for Episode 9

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-07-23 01:14pm

Lando could act as a natural foil for Han, in that he succeeded where Han sort of stayed in the same place, since they clearly showed that Han never rose above petty smuggler after Return of the Jedi, even though he was a general and hero of the Rebellion.

In regards to the topic of the fight seeming like a small scale fight, that's mostly due to The Last Jedi. Unless Episode IX introduces severe consequences to Canto Bight's slavery practices, or there's a scene to end child slavery in the galaxy, it will feel like it will still be this small fight between the Resistance and the First Order while the rich and powerful shrug, exploiting the vulnerable, and sell both sides ships and weapons while gambling away their gains.
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Re: Returning classic character announced for Episode 9

Post by Patroklos » 2018-07-23 01:44pm

I highly doubt child slavery will have any impact on the next movie. Nobody in the last one gave a shit about it. They were too busy saving space man-dog-horses to notice the child slaves standing right there.

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Re: Returning classic character announced for Episode 9

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-07-23 03:11pm

Patroklos wrote:
2018-07-23 01:44pm
I highly doubt child slavery will have any impact on the next movie. Nobody in the last one gave a shit about it. They were too busy saving space man-dog-horses to notice the child slaves standing right there.
What exactly could Rose and Finn have done for the children in that situation?
FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-07-23 01:14pm
Lando could act as a natural foil for Han, in that he succeeded where Han sort of stayed in the same place, since they clearly showed that Han never rose above petty smuggler after Return of the Jedi, even though he was a general and hero of the Rebellion.
Yes.
In regards to the topic of the fight seeming like a small scale fight, that's mostly due to The Last Jedi. Unless Episode IX introduces severe consequences to Canto Bight's slavery practices, or there's a scene to end child slavery in the galaxy, it will feel like it will still be this small fight between the Resistance and the First Order while the rich and powerful shrug, exploiting the vulnerable, and sell both sides ships and weapons while gambling away their gains.
So you're basically taking DJ's parody of "both sides" arguments and whataboutism at face value? The Resistance may buy weapons from not nice people (being a small Resistance group with no legitimate backers left, I'm not sure what alternative they have), but they haven't blown up civilians worlds or executed civilian prisoners, at least that we know of. That puts them ahead of the First Order by a long shot, anyway.

Also, I don't think TLJ is entirely to blame for the small-scale feeling of the conflict. TFA set up the Republic being wiped out in a single attack, and the whole point of including those scenes on Canto Bight in TLJ, to me at least, seemed to be to show the effects of the conflict on the larger galaxy. Likewise, part of the point of the final scene is that Luke's sacrifice will inspire others among those slave communities to fight for their freedom.

That said, I do hope we get more in IX. I'd like to see Rose and Finn go back with a team of Resistance soldiers and liberate Canto Bight. But I have a feeling that between dealing with explaining Leia's death, introducing Lando, the First Order infighting plot TLJ hinted at, Rey vs. Kylo Ren, possibly Rey starting to train new Jedi, the Knights of Ren (who really need to show up), and anything else Abrams introduces or retcons back in (I still give it 40/60 odds that Snoke will be retconned back to life), IX is already looking like it could be a pretty crowded movie.
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Re: Returning classic character announced for Episode 9

Post by Elheru Aran » 2018-07-23 03:26pm

TLJ does make it explicit that the Resistance is absurdly small, though, which means that its ability to enact real change across the galaxy is going to be drastically limited if they jump episode IX right off of TLJ.

Honestly given Lando's return, I find it more realistic that the survivors of the Resistance are going to try and connect with him, and use his connections to build up their forces. Chewbacca, Artoo and Threepio are the last legacy characters left (was Threepio even in TLJ? I barely remember seeing him), so it's quite possible that for example Chewie might be able to broker a deal with Lando, or Artoo might have a file of Republic military bases in his files... something like that.
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Re: Returning classic character announced for Episode 9

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-07-23 03:33pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-07-23 03:11pm
In regards to the topic of the fight seeming like a small scale fight, that's mostly due to The Last Jedi. Unless Episode IX introduces severe consequences to Canto Bight's slavery practices, or there's a scene to end child slavery in the galaxy, it will feel like it will still be this small fight between the Resistance and the First Order while the rich and powerful shrug, exploiting the vulnerable, and sell both sides ships and weapons while gambling away their gains.
So you're basically taking DJ's parody of "both sides" arguments and whataboutism at face value? The Resistance may buy weapons from not nice people (being a small Resistance group with no legitimate backers left, I'm not sure what alternative they have), but they haven't blown up civilians worlds or executed civilian prisoners, at least that we know of. That puts them ahead of the First Order by a long shot, anyway.

Also, I don't think TLJ is entirely to blame for the small-scale feeling of the conflict. TFA set up the Republic being wiped out in a single attack, and the whole point of including those scenes on Canto Bight in TLJ, to me at least, seemed to be to show the effects of the conflict on the larger galaxy. Likewise, part of the point of the final scene is that Luke's sacrifice will inspire others among those slave communities to fight for their freedom.

That said, I do hope we get more in IX. I'd like to see Rose and Finn go back with a team of Resistance soldiers and liberate Canto Bight. But I have a feeling that between dealing with explaining Leia's death, introducing Lando, the First Order infighting plot TLJ hinted at, Rey vs. Kylo Ren, possibly Rey starting to train new Jedi, the Knights of Ren (who really need to show up), and anything else Abrams introduces or retcons back in (I still give it 40/60 odds that Snoke will be retconned back to life), IX is already looking like it could be a pretty crowded movie.
No, I'm pointing out that while TFA made it seem small scale due to lack of scope and worldbuilding, the EU made it to where the Empire and the New Republic are just sitting there while their proxies fight, TLJ made it feel small-scale in that the rest of the galaxy carries on while the First Order and the Resistance essentially fight a turf war while at the same time, these huge injustices are carrying on unnoticed in the galaxy.

The First Order is evil, no question, and the Resistance hasn't seemed to do anything morally reprehensible. But at the same time, the Resistance doesn't seem to be capable of much at all, anyway. Introducing child slavery and the fact that the Resistance are buying from the same people who have children for slaves makes it seem that the entire thing is a sideshow to the real problems of the galaxy. A theme that Rian Johnson tries to make us hastily forget by freeing the race animals and making a mess of the casino, while still having children forced to work for greedy people in the end scene. That kind of moral complexity once introduced to a story can't be dismissed unless you're willing to have the heroes of the story rectify that in future installments.

If they don't, it becomes a case of us following the Resistance as they fight their turf war with the First Order, and no one who isn't involved seems to care. It's not about moral equivalence, the theme of Star Wars is becoming the cycle of war, and how the peasants still lose their chickens, no matter who rules.



(And yes, I keep on bringing Young Indiana Jones into the ST discussions, but they sum these points rather well)

They introduced the concept that something needs to change in how the good guys are conducting their fight, because the people are suffering. if they don't follow up on that, then they are introducing a failing in our heroes that will stick out for the rest of the franchise.
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Re: Returning classic character announced for Episode 9

Post by Patroklos » 2018-07-23 03:53pm

Eh, I agree with you that the scope is far to narrow, but they don't have to rectify ever evil in the entire galaxy in one story arc. There were worlds with slavery when the Old Republic was around, just like there are countries with defacto slavery now and I wouldn't say the world is irredeemably evil. In the end defeating the First Order is the BEGINNING, just like defeating the Empire, if you are going for a realistic setting. Wars take years, sometimes months. Cleaning up after it can take decades, and that if you were starting from a pristine condition in the first place. That might be too nuanced for a movie that doesn't seem to be able to settle on a tone or theme, but just because TLJ executes it badly doesn't mean we have to willfully disregard such realities for the larger universe.

It would be nice, however, if when our characters encounter these harsh realities of the world they are in and now that the limits of there abilities means they won't be coming back to correct this specific instance, they acknowledge that fact and frustration however subtly. Pushing slave kids out of the way so you can get a peek at that furry rabbit-girrafe sets the wrong tone (I exaggerate TRR, calm down...). Rose had just finished trying to sell the audience on the injustice of the galaxy and all of a sudden she's waving the face of it right in front of her aside because CUTTSIEEEES!!!!

As for your question above TRR: Nothing. But they didn't seem too broken up about that fact, and coming off Rose's shoehorned "my planet was strip mined!" monologue it was jarring.

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Re: Returning classic character announced for Episode 9

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-07-23 04:13pm

Patroklos wrote:
2018-07-23 03:53pm
Eh, I agree with you that the scope is far to narrow, but they don't have to rectify ever evil in the entire galaxy in one story arc. There were worlds with slavery when the Old Republic was around, just like there are countries with defacto slavery now and I wouldn't say the world is irredeemably evil. In the end defeating the First Order is the BEGINNING, just like defeating the Empire, if you are going for a realistic setting. Wars take years, sometimes months. Cleaning up after it can take decades, and that if you were starting from a pristine condition in the first place. That might be too nuanced for a movie that doesn't seem to be able to settle on a tone or theme, but just because TLJ executes it badly doesn't mean we have to willfully disregard such realities for the larger universe.
I actually mostly agree with this.

Keep in mind that rampant slavery on backwater worlds was a problem under the Old Republic, Empire, and New Republic.
It would be nice, however, if when our characters encounter these harsh realities of the world they are in and now that the limits of there abilities means they won't be coming back to correct this specific instance, they acknowledge that fact and frustration however subtly. Pushing slave kids out of the way so you can get a peek at that furry rabbit-girrafe sets the wrong tone (I exaggerate TRR, calm down...). Rose had just finished trying to sell the audience on the injustice of the galaxy and all of a sudden she's waving the face of it right in front of her aside because CUTTSIEEEES!!!!
Leaving aside your needless condescension towards me, I think Rose's dislike of the situation on Canto Bight is quite clear.
As for your question above TRR: Nothing. But they didn't seem too broken up about that fact, and coming off Rose's shoehorned "my planet was strip mined!" monologue it was jarring.
Maybe, but knowing fandom, I have a feeling that if they'd handled it differently, we'd be hearing complaints about the heavy-handed angsting and moralizing over the fate of the slave children.
FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-07-23 03:33pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-07-23 03:11pm
In regards to the topic of the fight seeming like a small scale fight, that's mostly due to The Last Jedi. Unless Episode IX introduces severe consequences to Canto Bight's slavery practices, or there's a scene to end child slavery in the galaxy, it will feel like it will still be this small fight between the Resistance and the First Order while the rich and powerful shrug, exploiting the vulnerable, and sell both sides ships and weapons while gambling away their gains.
So you're basically taking DJ's parody of "both sides" arguments and whataboutism at face value? The Resistance may buy weapons from not nice people (being a small Resistance group with no legitimate backers left, I'm not sure what alternative they have), but they haven't blown up civilians worlds or executed civilian prisoners, at least that we know of. That puts them ahead of the First Order by a long shot, anyway.

Also, I don't think TLJ is entirely to blame for the small-scale feeling of the conflict. TFA set up the Republic being wiped out in a single attack, and the whole point of including those scenes on Canto Bight in TLJ, to me at least, seemed to be to show the effects of the conflict on the larger galaxy. Likewise, part of the point of the final scene is that Luke's sacrifice will inspire others among those slave communities to fight for their freedom.

That said, I do hope we get more in IX. I'd like to see Rose and Finn go back with a team of Resistance soldiers and liberate Canto Bight. But I have a feeling that between dealing with explaining Leia's death, introducing Lando, the First Order infighting plot TLJ hinted at, Rey vs. Kylo Ren, possibly Rey starting to train new Jedi, the Knights of Ren (who really need to show up), and anything else Abrams introduces or retcons back in (I still give it 40/60 odds that Snoke will be retconned back to life), IX is already looking like it could be a pretty crowded movie.
No, I'm pointing out that while TFA made it seem small scale due to lack of scope and worldbuilding, the EU made it to where the Empire and the New Republic are just sitting there while their proxies fight, TLJ made it feel small-scale in that the rest of the galaxy carries on while the First Order and the Resistance essentially fight a turf war while at the same time, these huge injustices are carrying on unnoticed in the galaxy.

The First Order is evil, no question, and the Resistance hasn't seemed to do anything morally reprehensible. But at the same time, the Resistance doesn't seem to be capable of much at all, anyway. Introducing child slavery and the fact that the Resistance are buying from the same people who have children for slaves makes it seem that the entire thing is a sideshow to the real problems of the galaxy. A theme that Rian Johnson tries to make us hastily forget by freeing the race animals and making a mess of the casino, while still having children forced to work for greedy people in the end scene. That kind of moral complexity once introduced to a story can't be dismissed unless you're willing to have the heroes of the story rectify that in future installments.

If they don't, it becomes a case of us following the Resistance as they fight their turf war with the First Order, and no one who isn't involved seems to care. It's not about moral equivalence, the theme of Star Wars is becoming the cycle of war, and how the peasants still lose their chickens, no matter who rules.



(And yes, I keep on bringing Young Indiana Jones into the ST discussions, but they sum these points rather well)

They introduced the concept that something needs to change in how the good guys are conducting their fight, because the people are suffering. if they don't follow up on that, then they are introducing a failing in our heroes that will stick out for the rest of the franchise.
I don't entirely disagree, but I think TLJ lays the foundations for that well enough. We see the problem, we see that the Resistance wants to fix it, and tries to when it can- but TLJ is about them struggling simply to survive.

Now ideally, IX would follow up on that. But that's on JJ Abrams to do or not do.
Elheru Aran wrote:
2018-07-23 03:26pm
TLJ does make it explicit that the Resistance is absurdly small, though, which means that its ability to enact real change across the galaxy is going to be drastically limited if they jump episode IX right off of TLJ.

Honestly given Lando's return, I find it more realistic that the survivors of the Resistance are going to try and connect with him, and use his connections to build up their forces. Chewbacca, Artoo and Threepio are the last legacy characters left (was Threepio even in TLJ? I barely remember seeing him), so it's quite possible that for example Chewie might be able to broker a deal with Lando, or Artoo might have a file of Republic military bases in his files... something like that.
Yeah.

C3PO was present though, yes. He's sitting in on the meeting where Poe, Rose, and Finn hatch their little plan- he tells Poe that Holdo won't okay it, at which point Poe decides to go behind her back. He also has a brief encounter with Luke at the end, just off the top of my head.
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"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

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Re: Returning classic character announced for Episode 9

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-07-23 04:24pm

Patroklos wrote:
2018-07-23 03:53pm
Eh, I agree with you that the scope is far to narrow, but they don't have to rectify ever evil in the entire galaxy in one story arc. There were worlds with slavery when the Old Republic was around, just like there are countries with defacto slavery now and I wouldn't say the world is irredeemably evil. In the end defeating the First Order is the BEGINNING, just like defeating the Empire, if you are going for a realistic setting. Wars take years, sometimes months. Cleaning up after it can take decades, and that if you were starting from a pristine condition in the first place. That might be too nuanced for a movie that doesn't seem to be able to settle on a tone or theme, but just because TLJ executes it badly doesn't mean we have to willfully disregard such realities for the larger universe.

It would be nice, however, if when our characters encounter these harsh realities of the world they are in and now that the limits of there abilities means they won't be coming back to correct this specific instance, they acknowledge that fact and frustration however subtly. Pushing slave kids out of the way so you can get a peek at that furry rabbit-girrafe sets the wrong tone (I exaggerate TRR, calm down...). Rose had just finished trying to sell the audience on the injustice of the galaxy and all of a sudden she's waving the face of it right in front of her aside because CUTTSIEEEES!!!! S
Well, yes. If the same scene had ended with Rose and Finn freeing all the children and the animals were all a distraction for that(ala Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom), I wouldn't have as many issues with the film as I do. Or simply acknowledging that they can't save the slaves today, but can if they get the Resistance to live tomorrow, would be a lot better. The Phantom Menace showed this with the Jedi on Tattooine, in that Anakin's first thoughts are that the Jedi are here to free them, and Qui Gon is ashamed to say that it isn't true. It shows the limits of the Jedi Order, the state of the galaxy, while also showing the legend attached to Jedi.


The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-07-23 04:13pm
I actually mostly agree with this.

Keep in mind that rampant slavery on backwater worlds was a problem under the Old Republic, Empire, and New Republic.
It would be nice, however, if when our characters encounter these harsh realities of the world they are in and now that the limits of there abilities means they won't be coming back to correct this specific instance, they acknowledge that fact and frustration however subtly. Pushing slave kids out of the way so you can get a peek at that furry rabbit-girrafe sets the wrong tone (I exaggerate TRR, calm down...). Rose had just finished trying to sell the audience on the injustice of the galaxy and all of a sudden she's waving the face of it right in front of her aside because CUTTSIEEEES!!!!
Leaving aside your needless condescension towards me, I think Rose's dislike of the situation on Canto Bight is quite clear.
As for your question above TRR: Nothing. But they didn't seem too broken up about that fact, and coming off Rose's shoehorned "my planet was strip mined!" monologue it was jarring.
Maybe, but knowing fandom, I have a feeling that if they'd handled it differently, we'd be hearing complaints about the heavy-handed angsting and moralizing over the fate of the slave children.
FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-07-23 03:33pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-07-23 03:11pm


So you're basically taking DJ's parody of "both sides" arguments and whataboutism at face value? The Resistance may buy weapons from not nice people (being a small Resistance group with no legitimate backers left, I'm not sure what alternative they have), but they haven't blown up civilians worlds or executed civilian prisoners, at least that we know of. That puts them ahead of the First Order by a long shot, anyway.

Also, I don't think TLJ is entirely to blame for the small-scale feeling of the conflict. TFA set up the Republic being wiped out in a single attack, and the whole point of including those scenes on Canto Bight in TLJ, to me at least, seemed to be to show the effects of the conflict on the larger galaxy. Likewise, part of the point of the final scene is that Luke's sacrifice will inspire others among those slave communities to fight for their freedom.

That said, I do hope we get more in IX. I'd like to see Rose and Finn go back with a team of Resistance soldiers and liberate Canto Bight. But I have a feeling that between dealing with explaining Leia's death, introducing Lando, the First Order infighting plot TLJ hinted at, Rey vs. Kylo Ren, possibly Rey starting to train new Jedi, the Knights of Ren (who really need to show up), and anything else Abrams introduces or retcons back in (I still give it 40/60 odds that Snoke will be retconned back to life), IX is already looking like it could be a pretty crowded movie.
No, I'm pointing out that while TFA made it seem small scale due to lack of scope and worldbuilding, the EU made it to where the Empire and the New Republic are just sitting there while their proxies fight, TLJ made it feel small-scale in that the rest of the galaxy carries on while the First Order and the Resistance essentially fight a turf war while at the same time, these huge injustices are carrying on unnoticed in the galaxy.

The First Order is evil, no question, and the Resistance hasn't seemed to do anything morally reprehensible. But at the same time, the Resistance doesn't seem to be capable of much at all, anyway. Introducing child slavery and the fact that the Resistance are buying from the same people who have children for slaves makes it seem that the entire thing is a sideshow to the real problems of the galaxy. A theme that Rian Johnson tries to make us hastily forget by freeing the race animals and making a mess of the casino, while still having children forced to work for greedy people in the end scene. That kind of moral complexity once introduced to a story can't be dismissed unless you're willing to have the heroes of the story rectify that in future installments.

If they don't, it becomes a case of us following the Resistance as they fight their turf war with the First Order, and no one who isn't involved seems to care. It's not about moral equivalence, the theme of Star Wars is becoming the cycle of war, and how the peasants still lose their chickens, no matter who rules.



(And yes, I keep on bringing Young Indiana Jones into the ST discussions, but they sum these points rather well)

They introduced the concept that something needs to change in how the good guys are conducting their fight, because the people are suffering. if they don't follow up on that, then they are introducing a failing in our heroes that will stick out for the rest of the franchise.
I don't entirely disagree, but I think TLJ lays the foundations for that well enough. We see the problem, we see that the Resistance wants to fix it, and tries to when it can- but TLJ is about them struggling simply to survive.

Now ideally, IX would follow up on that. But that's on JJ Abrams to do or not do.
I hope JJ Abrams follows up on it. Maybe he will, maybe he won't. He's not that great at finishing projects as he is at starting them. Given his track of record of walking away from projects to start new ones.(See Lost, Star Trek reboot, Alias, etc.)

I sincerely hope they address the problem they made when we have Rose and Finn grinning as they ride away from the slavery problem. Otherwise a scene from IX could go like this:

Some old Tattooine nerf herder named Kitster Banai complaining to Finn that he helped the Jedi once against the Hutts and the Separatists, and then helped the Rebellion against the Empire, and now the Resistance is asking for help against the First Order, and he's still a poor man on Tattooine who loses his nerfs.
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Re: Returning classic character announced for Episode 9

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-07-23 04:43pm

I mean, a part of real life is, sadly, that even the greatest heroes can't fix all the world's problems. There are always going to be people who have more than others, there are always going to be innocents who suffer and die. Even if we created a perfect utopia, eventually the universe itself will probably end. That doesn't mean that the good guys are callous, or that there is no point to their efforts- they may save lives, they may make the world better for a while. But there is never going to be a single final win and then everyone lives happily ever after.

I guess it comes down to how much of that reality you want reflected in Star Wars- in other words, how escapist vs serious you want the tone of the film to be.
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Re: Returning classic character announced for Episode 9

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-07-23 04:46pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-07-23 04:43pm
I mean, a part of real life is, sadly, that even the greatest heroes can't fix all the world's problems. There are always going to be people who have more than others, there are always going to be innocents who suffer and die. Even if we created a perfect utopia, eventually the universe itself will probably end. That doesn't mean that the good guys are callous, or that there is no point to their efforts- they may save lives, they may make the world better for a while. But there is never going to be a single final win and then everyone lives happily ever after.

I guess it comes down to how much of that reality you want reflected in Star Wars- in other words, how escapist vs serious you want the tone of the film to be.
Considering how horrible the world is, I'd love to have more of an escapist feel to it, wherein our heroes don't fix everything, but that they don't just shrug their shoulders and walk away from problems that don't concern them.
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Re: Returning classic character announced for Episode 9

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-07-23 04:50pm

FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-07-23 04:46pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-07-23 04:43pm
I mean, a part of real life is, sadly, that even the greatest heroes can't fix all the world's problems. There are always going to be people who have more than others, there are always going to be innocents who suffer and die. Even if we created a perfect utopia, eventually the universe itself will probably end. That doesn't mean that the good guys are callous, or that there is no point to their efforts- they may save lives, they may make the world better for a while. But there is never going to be a single final win and then everyone lives happily ever after.

I guess it comes down to how much of that reality you want reflected in Star Wars- in other words, how escapist vs serious you want the tone of the film to be.
Considering how horrible the world is, I'd love to have more of an escapist feel to it, wherein our heroes don't fix everything, but that they don't just shrug their shoulders and walk away from problems that don't concern them.
I agree, but think that that's an unfair characterization of Finn and Rose's actions at Canto Bight.

In that situation, the Resistance was fighting a desperate battle for its very survival. They didn't have time to start a slave uprising on Canto Bight, or the means to liberate the slaves. Trying to do so would have just risked getting a bunch of children shot along with them. Rose makes it clear that she hates the place, and even Finn is happy to have a chance to trash the joint, but they didn't really have the option of helping everyone on Canto Bight. The animals were freed not because they were considered more important or worth saving than the children, but because the stampede was a useful distraction/cover/means of escape.
"Well, Grant, we've had the devil's own day, haven't we?"

"Yes. Lick 'em tomorrow though."

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Re: Returning classic character announced for Episode 9

Post by Patroklos » 2018-07-23 05:01pm

@FaxModem

Well you can’t have it both ways. You were complaining about a narrowness if scope, but that’s exactly what you need if you want your characters the have the bandwidth emotionally of the time to care about everything in a meaningful way on screen. To do that you have to have a narrow story on rails like TLJ, and a very small world compressed inside those lifelines.

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Re: Returning classic character announced for Episode 9

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-07-23 05:12pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-07-23 04:50pm

I agree, but think that that's an unfair characterization of Finn and Rose's actions at Canto Bight.

In that situation, the Resistance was fighting a desperate battle for its very survival. They didn't have time to start a slave uprising on Canto Bight, or the means to liberate the slaves. Trying to do so would have just risked getting a bunch of children shot along with them. Rose makes it clear that she hates the place, and even Finn is happy to have a chance to trash the joint, but they didn't really have the option of helping everyone on Canto Bight. The animals were freed not because they were considered more important or worth saving than the children, but because the stampede was a useful distraction/cover/means of escape.
Yes, there's the issue of the ticking clock that is driving the plot. However, due to tone of the scene, the expressions of the actors, and then the slaves still being there at the end, we get the sense that freeing the animals, while a great distraction for escape, was more of a concern than freeing the slaves, or that in the film, one equals the other in execution of revolt, so that we should no longer care about the plight of the slaves that the film said we should care about.
Patroklos wrote:
2018-07-23 05:01pm
@FaxModem

Well you can’t have it both ways. You were complaining about a narrowness if scope, but that’s exactly what you need if you want your characters the have the bandwidth emotionally of the time to care about everything in a meaningful way on screen. To do that you have to have a narrow story on rails like TLJ, and a very small world compressed inside those lifelines.
That the film ended with the kids still forced to do work by their Canto Bight masters only underscores how much is left to do, and how little our heroes in all three film eras didn't do. It's not like at the end of The Phantom Menace, we cut back to Tattooine, with poor Kitser Banal and the other kids fixing a machine or mining ore while our heroes celebrate on Naboo. The prequel films, even though they didn't do this, chose to follow up on it with another character, Shmi. This even underscored Anakin's fall to the dark side, in that his mother was still a slave and who knows how horrible her life was for the past ten years in the next film. It wasn't intentional, but it showed that the Jedi weren't solving the problems out there in the greater galaxy(or beyond the Republic's borders).

It will really all depend on how they choose to execute it in Episode IX. My main problem is that if you introduce a problem like galactic slavery of children, it has to be addressed. In the Prequel trilogy, it showed that the Jedi weren't fixing the problems that they should have been, even inadvertently. However, the prequel trilogy was showing that the Jedi were problematic and needed fixing. In the Sequel trilogy, it becomes that our heroes let the galaxy stay(or fall) to this level of corruption, and didn't really do anything about it, when they seemed to be in the position to do so. It casts a negative light on our OT heroes, and leaves a challenge for the ST heroes that they will either ignore or fix, dependent on the sequel. If they ignore it, Star Wars becomes "The more things change, the more things stay the same."
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Re: Returning classic character announced for Episode 9

Post by Galvatron » 2018-07-27 08:49pm

‘Star Wars: Episode IX’ Announces Cast; Carrie Fisher to Be Featured
“Finding a truly satisfying conclusion to the Skywalker saga without her eluded us. We were never going to recast, or use a CG character,” director J.J. Abrams said in a statement. “With the support and blessing from her daughter, Billie, we have found a way to honor Carrie’s legacy and role as Leia in Episode IX by using unseen footage we shot together in Episode VII.”
I wonder if it'll truly just be unseen footage or CG-modified like JFK in Forrest Gump. They should start future-proofing all of their actors by shooting hours of generic footage of them in front of a green screen for potential use in later films.
Last edited by Galvatron on 2018-07-27 08:54pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Returning classic character announced for Episode 9

Post by Gandalf » 2018-07-27 08:54pm

On a technical level, I'm sure that they can do it. So I hope it all works out.

It can't be worse than the CG people in Rogue One, or... anything in that film. :P
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Re: Returning classic character announced for Episode 9

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-07-27 09:33pm

Two decades ago, actors were panicking about being out of a job if CGI actors became a real thing. Won't there be similar challenges by the Screen Actors Guild and other such groups? Or have they accepted the idea since the 1990s?
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Re: Returning classic character announced for Episode 9

Post by Galvatron » 2018-07-27 09:45pm

The whole appeal of CG actors is that they would enable filmmakers to use the likenesses of actual actors who are either dead or otherwise unavailable. The actual actors (or their estates) would still have to be compensated for the use of their likenesses in any new material.

I don't think human beings have to worry about being replaced by entirely original CG actors, but I've been wrong before...

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Re: Returning classic character announced for Episode 9

Post by Imperial528 » 2018-07-27 10:16pm

I can see a fear of actors essentially being replaced with voice actors, but given the use of motion capture with CGI for animation, actors who are adept at the physical skill involved in acting will probably have nothing to worry about.

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