A TLJ/Episode IX what-if (time travel):

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A TLJ/Episode IX what-if (time travel):

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-06-18 05:48pm

Okay, so, at the end of The Last Jedi, Luke and Rey save the remnants of the Resistance, a grand total of... about a dozen people, crammed onto the Millennium Falcon. Some have pointed out that this is not a very promising basis on which to form a new Rebellion, and have used this as a point to criticize the film, and its characters (particularly in holding Admiral Holdo responsible for the destruction of most of the fleet). Now, in fairness, the Resistance clearly has allies on other worlds, who they hope to rally and inspire to join them, and the end of the film implies that Luke's sacrifice and the Falcon's escape will inspire such an uprising. Ultimately, the answer will have to wait for Episode IX. But this does all beg the question: what if the Resistance concluded that they were beaten, that they simply did not have the forces necessary to win? Hell, imagine if Leia, sitting in that bunker and believing that the galaxy had given up, had decided to try a radical alternative (presuming that at least some of the Resistance could escape on the Falcon)? Which brings me to the second part of this scenario.

In the finale of "Rebels", it was established that time travel is possible in Star Wars, via using a sort of portal (one such portal is on Lothal). Major Rebel characters on the show are aware of this portal, and its not a huge leap that they might have told other senior Rebellion leaders. Like, say, Princess Leia.

So what if the Resistance decides "Screw this timeline, we need a do-over"?

Scenario One: Luke never shows up, or shows up too late. Leia and the Resistance die in the cave on Crait, but before she does, Leia sends a telepathic message to Rey on board the Falcon, telling her to go to Lothal and find the portal. Rey does so, eventually figures it out, and travels back in time. She travels back to the day her parents left her on Jakku, asks them what the fuck, and then takes her younger self as an apprentice.

Can Rey (and younger Rey), along with Chewie and R2, with the advantage of fore-knowledge, prevent the victory of the First Order? Alternatively, is there a better point for her to travel to/a better plan she could use?

Scenario Two: The group on the Falcon escape as in canon, but Leia still decides to go back in time using the Lothal portal. She travels back to the Rebel victory at Endor, determined not to fuck up the creation of the New Republic this time.

Scenario Three: Leia decides to try to undo the whole fall of the Old Republic and everything that followed at the price of potentially erasing Han and Luke's (among others') existences from the timeline, and goes back to Naboo shortly before the Trade Federation begins its attack.

Can Leia and the Resistance succeed? Is there a better plan that they could follow instead?
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Re: A TLJ/Episode IX what-if (time travel):

Post by Elheru Aran » 2018-06-18 06:02pm

I doubt going back further than Endor would do much good; there's far too many butterflies getting stomped in that scenario.

Also, how much idea do we have of how exactly time-travel works in Star Wars, and whether this is even a feasible scenario at all?
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Re: A TLJ/Episode IX what-if (time travel):

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-06-18 06:13pm

Elheru Aran wrote:
2018-06-18 06:02pm
I doubt going back further than Endor would do much good; there's far too many butterflies getting stomped in that scenario.
The further you go back, the less valuable the time traveler's knowledge is, yes. That said, sending some Jedi back to shank Palpatine at a Senate meeting or something could accomplish quite a lot. Even if Palpatine saw it coming, defending himself would require breaking cover. It... won't go so well for him, if he whips out a red light sabre or starts chucking Force lightning in the middle of the Senate hall. Or better yet, a Jedi Council meeting.

Saving Shmi might be another big one, if anyone alive knows enough of Anakin's history to think to do that. Or freeing both Anakin and his mother and training Anakin outside the strictures of the old Jedi Order.
Also, how much idea do we have of how exactly time-travel works in Star Wars, and whether this is even a feasible scenario at all?
Well, in the "Rebels" finale, its used to rescue Ashoka from her supposed death at the hands of Darth Vader*. The key question, I suppose, being whether the timeline was altered, or an alternate timeline was created where Ashoka lived and the Rebels characters are now in that timeline, or whether Ashoka always lived and its a closed loop (those being the three basic types of time travel, for narrative purposes).

Introducing practical time travel that can alter the timeline introduces a whole can of worms, both from an ethical perspective in-universe (ie, if you go back in time and change history, you are pretty much wiping everyone born after that point from existence, etc.), and from a story-writing perspective out-of-universe (if its not used carefully, death becomes cheap and continuity becomes non-existent). So does the "alternate universe" model, to a degree. To be honest, I rather wish that they hadn't gone there at all. But now that its done, its interesting to explore the potential stories that could arise from it.



*Edit: And people call Rey a Mary Sue? I love Ashoka, but they potentially rewrote the metaphysics of the franchise in a fundamental way and rewrote the timeline just to bring her back? :)
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: A TLJ/Episode IX what-if (time travel):

Post by Esquire » 2018-06-21 12:46am

Only reason the fanbase isn't more unhappy about that is that the vast majority of us never knew she existed in the first place.
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Re: A TLJ/Episode IX what-if (time travel):

Post by Patroklos » 2018-06-21 02:15am

I think it is a mistake to introduce time travel into a multiple movie arc. You can sort of get away with in in episodic TV because each story segment is largely segregated. Sure there are some story threads that percolate through a series, and modern series seem to eschew the self contained episodic story strategy in favor movie-ish steady stream style or arc, but I think if you look at how a scifi property that used time travel constantly like TNG you can see how the avoided having logical conclusions taint future stories. Essentially nobody asks why that time travel solution from before isn't just used again because the current events are wholly independent of past events, and since the current story is hard cut from those earlier uses that inconsistency is readily excused by viewers (if they realize it at all in the first place).

The SW movies are not like that. Especially the new ones that seem to allow no time to pass between iterations. Its steady stream. I don't see them pulling off a nuanced time travel device that doesn't fail miserably. If TLJ taught us anything its that there is no plot device, however common and well worn, that the current creators of SW can't fuck up.
*Edit: And people call Rey a Mary Sue? I love Ashoka, but they potentially rewrote the metaphysics of the franchise in a fundamental way and rewrote the timeline just to bring her back? :)
Rounding, 100% of movie goers have no idea the cartoons exist. 99% of SW fans don't give a shit even if they know it exists. The audience for the movies vs these shows is ridiculously lopsided. The same goes for movie only SW fans vs. SW + everything else SW fans. And even among SW+ everything else fans, I bet you most still don't know about let alone watch Rebels (or Clone Wars). I am one of them.

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Re: A TLJ/Episode IX what-if (time travel):

Post by tezunegari » 2018-06-21 05:40am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-06-18 06:13pm
*Edit: And people call Rey a Mary Sue? I love Ashoka, but they potentially rewrote the metaphysics of the franchise in a fundamental way and rewrote the timeline just to bring her back? :)
Ashoka's survival is an out-of-universe decision of the writers and not something she herself does; it's Ezra who drags her into the Force Portal.

Rey, on the other hand, is awesome-McSuperpower in-universe.

She's an optimistic good-hearted person, multilingual and a good enough engineer to repair the Falcon despite working most of her life for a cutthroat salvage operator who's changing prices at will and sends brutes to steal valuables from the salvagers. She's able to outfly trained TIE-pilots on her first real flight in the Falcon, even doing a trench-run through an SSD. She counters Kylo Ren's mind probing and reads his thoughts instead (and if you go by the novelization, copies his force training at the same time somehow...). She uses Force mind trick while under duress and it works at the third try, runs around Starkiller Base without a problem. And at the end, the planet has to crack to save Kylo Ren from her, instead of the other way around.

And in TLJ she's immune to the Dark Side, defeats Luke Skywalker and raises the avalanche of rocks without any problem. Oh, and she kills three TIEs with a single shot at Crait during her first time at the cannons of the Falcon.
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Re: A TLJ/Episode IX what-if (time travel):

Post by Patroklos » 2018-06-21 07:38am

I am 100% in agreement with you, and you left out some of her worst offenses in this regard. But can we not do this here?

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Re: A TLJ/Episode IX what-if (time travel):

Post by NeoGoomba » 2018-06-21 08:36am

Maybe the time portal will be immediately beneficial to the Resistance and somehow spit Ezra, Thrawn, and the Chimera out instead.
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Re: A TLJ/Episode IX what-if (time travel):

Post by houser2112 » 2018-06-21 12:47pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-06-18 05:48pm
In the finale of "Rebels", it was established that time travel is possible in Star Wars, via using a sort of portal (one such portal is on Lothal).
Every once in a while, I get the idea in my head that it might be a good idea to get into this show. I usually bounce hard off of whiny bitch Ezra, but what the hell, it can't be ALL bad if I give it a chance, right? Knowing this makes me feel a lot better about not bothering at all. I despise time travel as a plot device in otherwise "serious" scifi. However, I do love a good counterfactual, so:
Scenario One: Luke never shows up, or shows up too late. Leia and the Resistance die in the cave on Crait, but before she does, Leia sends a telepathic message to Rey on board the Falcon, telling her to go to Lothal and find the portal. Rey does so, eventually figures it out, and travels back in time. She travels back to the day her parents left her on Jakku, asks them what the fuck, and then takes her younger self as an apprentice.

Can Rey (and younger Rey), along with Chewie and R2, with the advantage of fore-knowledge, prevent the victory of the First Order? Alternatively, is there a better point for her to travel to/a better plan she could use?
Even in non-serious fiction (like Back To The Future), interacting with yourself is a big no-no, so I'm going to pretend that part doesn't happen. The First Order is too big for the Resistance to take on. The Resistance as depicted on screen is sorely lacking in, well, you name it: capital ships, fighters, personnel. Sure, there's the New Republic, and travelling back in time to before they were wiped out could make a difference, but do even they have enough to compete with FO? We don't know because TFA was so miserly with details about pretty much everything that happened between Eps VI and VII. How old is Rey, and how old is the FO (how much of a head start do they have?)?

Your scenario only states that Leia tells Rey about the portal, but is Rey well enough equipped to do anything with it? Does Rey have the political ability to manipulate the NR? Does Rey even know anything about the NR?
Scenario Two: The group on the Falcon escape as in canon, but Leia still decides to go back in time using the Lothal portal. She travels back to the Rebel victory at Endor, determined not to fuck up the creation of the New Republic this time.
This is the most plausible. From what little I've read on this board, Mon Mothma had her head up her ass when she created the New Republic. Going all Versailles-like on the Empire is a bad idea in the first place, but combining that with de-militarizing is even worse. Leia knows what mistakes the NR made, and has the political acumen and clout to do something about it. From what I've read on this board, Leia was part of a faction that tried to do things the right way, but somehow lost to the Mon Mothma faction. Some well-applied butterflies could tip the balance to what would work better.
Scenario Three: Leia decides to try to undo the whole fall of the Old Republic and everything that followed at the price of potentially erasing Han and Luke's (among others') existences from the timeline, and goes back to Naboo shortly before the Trade Federation begins its attack.
Have you forgotten that Luke and Leia shared a womb? Even ignoring that detail, I think this is going back too far to solve the current problem (the Rebels already won the war, they just have to win the peace now), and at the same time not far enough to do any good. The Old Republic was rotten, even before Palpatine's manipulations. All of the factions that made up the Separatists have likely held their beefs with the OR long before the Trade Feds actually attacked. You'd have to go at least as far back as when Palpatine started to stoke those embers to change anything, right before the Battle of Naboo is too late, I think.

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Re: A TLJ/Episode IX what-if (time travel):

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-06-21 08:07pm

Esquire wrote:
2018-06-21 12:46am
Only reason the fanbase isn't more unhappy about that is that the vast majority of us never knew she existed in the first place.
Um... the majority of the general public might not know Ashoka exists, but pretty much anyone who's a serious Star Wars fan is surely familiar with the character.
tezunegari wrote:
2018-06-21 05:40am
Ashoka's survival is an out-of-universe decision of the writers and not something she herself does; it's Ezra who drags her into the Force Portal.

Rey, on the other hand, is awesome-McSuperpower in-universe.

She's an optimistic good-hearted person, multilingual and a good enough engineer to repair the Falcon despite working most of her life for a cutthroat salvage operator who's changing prices at will and sends brutes to steal valuables from the salvagers. She's able to outfly trained TIE-pilots on her first real flight in the Falcon, even doing a trench-run through an SSD. She counters Kylo Ren's mind probing and reads his thoughts instead (and if you go by the novelization, copies his force training at the same time somehow...). She uses Force mind trick while under duress and it works at the third try, runs around Starkiller Base without a problem. And at the end, the planet has to crack to save Kylo Ren from her, instead of the other way around.

And in TLJ she's immune to the Dark Side, defeats Luke Skywalker and raises the avalanche of rocks without any problem. Oh, and she kills three TIEs with a single shot at Crait during her first time at the cannons of the Falcon.
The original definition of "Mary Sue" was "author self-insert", which to my knowledge applies to neither character. The expanded definition was along the lines of "Also, any character who regularly benefits from plot contrivances." Which more closely fits what happened to Ashoka than most of the examples you gave for Rey. It was never "Character who's good at shit", until people started abusing the term to the point of meaninglessness.

A number of the examples you gave are also things that any remotely intelligent and motivated person can easily learn, ie being multilingual (most of the population of the world, probably) and machine maintainance (Wow- someone who salvages spacecraft knows about spacecraft parts!). The claim that she is immune to the Dark Side in TLJ is flatly false.

But then, you're literally saying that her being a good person is evidence of her being a Mary Sue.
Patroklos wrote:
2018-06-21 07:38am
I am 100% in agreement with you, and you left out some of her worst offenses in this regard. But can we not do this here?
Its a blatant thread derail on his part, but I just wanted to address a few of the more objectively incorrect points, because Rey's actual abilities do have some bearing on the topic of the thread, and how she would handle these scenarios. I'm more than happy to let this be the end of it.
NeoGoomba wrote:
2018-06-21 08:36am
Maybe the time portal will be immediately beneficial to the Resistance and somehow spit Ezra, Thrawn, and the Chimera out instead.
I'm not at all sure that Thrawn showing up would be of benefit to the Resistance. Interesting, yes. Beneficial? Probably not.
houser2112 wrote:
2018-06-21 12:47pm
Every once in a while, I get the idea in my head that it might be a good idea to get into this show. I usually bounce hard off of whiny bitch Ezra, but what the hell, it can't be ALL bad if I give it a chance, right? Knowing this makes me feel a lot better about not bothering at all. I despise time travel as a plot device in otherwise "serious" scifi. However, I do love a good counterfactual, so:
Man, I'm so conflicted on this. On the one hand, time travel is problematic as hell. On the other hand, I do love Ashoka, and time travel does open up new story opportunities.

Though I question the claim that Star Wars is "serious" sf, while time travel-heavy shows aren't. Star Wars has a lot of goofy shit.
Even in non-serious fiction (like Back To The Future), interacting with yourself is a big no-no, so I'm going to pretend that part doesn't happen.
That depends on the nature of how the time travel works in the setting. But you're free to propose alternate scenarios as per the OP.
The First Order is too big for the Resistance to take on. The Resistance as depicted on screen is sorely lacking in, well, you name it: capital ships, fighters, personnel. Sure, there's the New Republic, and travelling back in time to before they were wiped out could make a difference, but do even they have enough to compete with FO? We don't know because TFA was so miserly with details about pretty much everything that happened between Eps VI and VII. How old is Rey, and how old is the FO (how much of a head start do they have?)?
I'd guess from Rey's appearance when her parents abandoned her that its about fifteen years early, and pre-Kylo's fall/destruction of Luke's Jedi Order.
Your scenario only states that Leia tells Rey about the portal, but is Rey well enough equipped to do anything with it?
She'd have R2 and Chewie with her, if its a matter of mechanical skill. As for the Force... well, if you believe Rey's detractors, she should have no trouble. :wink:
Does Rey have the political ability to manipulate the NR? Does Rey even know anything about the NR?
Likely not. One of the points I've raised against Rey being a perfect Mary Sue is that she actually has some major gaps in her knowledge in the films, and galactic history is certainly one of them. She thought Luke was a myth in TFA.

That's not to say that she couldn't acquire that knowledge in time, especially with R2's memory banks and hacking abilities around. But it will take time.
This is the most plausible. From what little I've read on this board, Mon Mothma had her head up her ass when she created the New Republic. Going all Versailles-like on the Empire is a bad idea in the first place, but combining that with de-militarizing is even worse. Leia knows what mistakes the NR made, and has the political acumen and clout to do something about it. From what I've read on this board, Leia was part of a faction that tried to do things the right way, but somehow lost to the Mon Mothma faction. Some well-applied butterflies could tip the balance to what would work better.
Perhaps. This is a promising one, I agree. Though getting involved with NR politics means interacting with her past self.
Have you forgotten that Luke and Leia shared a womb?
That timeline's Leia would cease to exist, but the old Leia who went back would still be there, I presume.
Even ignoring that detail, I think this is going back too far to solve the current problem (the Rebels already won the war, they just have to win the peace now), and at the same time not far enough to do any good. The Old Republic was rotten, even before Palpatine's manipulations. All of the factions that made up the Separatists have likely held their beefs with the OR long before the Trade Feds actually attacked. You'd have to go at least as far back as when Palpatine started to stoke those embers to change anything, right before the Battle of Naboo is too late, I think.
Too late to stop the fall of the Republic? Possibly. Too late to stop the Sith and the extermination of the Jedi? Probably not.
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Re: A TLJ/Episode IX what-if (time travel):

Post by NecronLord » 2018-06-23 05:09pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-06-18 05:48pm
Scenario Three: Leia decides to try to undo the whole fall of the Old Republic and everything that followed at the price of potentially erasing Han and Luke's (among others') existences from the timeline, and goes back to Naboo shortly before the Trade Federation begins its attack.

Piss easy. They know Palpatine is the Sith Lord. They tell the Jedi who descend on him with a hundred masters and a thousand knights.
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