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The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2018-07-09 06:26pm For that matter, I'm not sure why Snoke's origins are so important. We never got an origin story for Palps either, beyond "He's a Sith" and "He's a Senator".

Because the sequel trilogy leaves us in so much confusion on what's going on, and how the past 30 years of history have developed into the present, that a key question on everyone's minds is, "How did the heroes screw up so badly so as to let Galactic Empire 2.0 roll around unheeded?"

The Emperor was a mysterious figure, but in the setting we were given in ANH, he was just some mysterious ruler guy. We weren't even sure if he was evil or not. But, we also didn't have any scenes with him, so he was out of focus. We did know that there was a despotic empire who killed families and hunted down princesses, so we were pretty sure they were bad, and that they seemed to rule everything, so getting a sense of what was going on was easy. Even without the prequels in mind, we see his rise to power has been bad and even country bumpkins like Luke Skywalker are against the Empire.

Coming into ESB, and Vader is bowing to Palpatine, and they talk about the force, so we know he's evil, powerful, and has the same abilities as Vader, Luke, Obi wan, and Yoda. We don't know how he go to power, but all those things give us a pretty good idea. And when we go to the prequels, we see that he's a politician who is a rising star, playing the goodies against the baddies in his own scheme to become Emperor. It isn't completely spelled out, but the theme is there. And even with the decade or so between ROTS and ANH, we can tell things are going to get worse, and that the Empire is going to grow more despotic and evil.

With Snoke, he's the leader of the First Order. Great, now how did he accomplish that if Luke, Leia, Han, Chewie, and Lando are all on the case? Since he's such a cliche villain, shouldn't they have nipped him in the bud when they were all relatively young? Why isn't that commented on more by any of the heroes? Luke remarks about it a bit with his training of Ben Solo/Kylo Ren, but that's about all we get. Unless we read the EU novels, it's just as plausible in the audience's mind that Leia, Han, and Luke passed a bong around for decades while the New Republic was destroyed by a guy who loves giant holograms of himself as it is that the guy built an army in secret outside Known Space and struck when he was ready to do so.

It makes the heroes negligent, and leaves the audience constantly questioning what's happening, because the setting isn't established even basically enough to get a general idea of what's going on.

To a certain degree I could buy that Luke would cut himself off from Republic politics, as he might think that one problem with the PT-era Jedi was that they were too closely connected to the political machinations of the Old Republic.

Likewise, Han and Chewie, while Han married Leia and they tried to start a family together, Han seems to not have been interested in a military career or his wife's politics; IIRC, Bloodlines suggests that he tended to pursue mostly unsuccessful business ventures and spent a lot of time away from home.

Honestly the recent news that they brought Billy Dee Williams on board for IX is kinda promising as far as this goes, because there's potential that Lando could get into more detail about what's been going on. Particularly if Lando continues his military career post-ROTJ, he might be able to offer more insight into the rise of the First Order as a military power then.

EDIT: Anyway, Leia is about the only one who could have really intervened, and it sounds like while she had some good ideas, she also had some that didn't work out, and politically she was only one person dealing with a system which was badly flawed from the start by attempting to emulate the Old Republic a little too much. I have no doubt that if she was aware of the rise of the First Order, she probably said something about it.

A bit late to bring Billy Dee Williams in, given that Han, Luke, and Leia are all gone, but perhaps that's the point. They're run out of OT heroes to give the films a connection to the older era. Lando is an underrated character, and it'll be great to have him back in any role.

Elheru Aran wrote: ↑2018-07-10 12:04pm To a certain degree I could buy that Luke would cut himself off from Republic politics, as he might think that one problem with the PT-era Jedi was that they were too closely connected to the political machinations of the Old Republic.

Likewise, Han and Chewie, while Han married Leia and they tried to start a family together, Han seems to not have been interested in a military career or his wife's politics; IIRC, Bloodlines suggests that he tended to pursue mostly unsuccessful business ventures and spent a lot of time away from home.

Honestly the recent news that they brought Billy Dee Williams on board for IX is kinda promising as far as this goes, because there's potential that Lando could get into more detail about what's been going on. Particularly if Lando continues his military career post-ROTJ, he might be able to offer more insight into the rise of the First Order as a military power then.

EDIT: Anyway, Leia is about the only one who could have really intervened, and it sounds like while she had some good ideas, she also had some that didn't work out, and politically she was only one person dealing with a system which was badly flawed from the start by attempting to emulate the Old Republic a little too much. I have no doubt that if she was aware of the rise of the First Order, she probably said something about it.

IIRC in the novel Bloodline, Leia's (and Lukes) lineage and relationship to Vader was revealed which ended her political career. (Ben Solo learned about being related to Vader here as well)
And a First Order sympathizer (or agent) tried to cast aspersion on Luke because he kept to himself over a few years.

The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2018-07-09 07:07pm

Elheru Aran wrote: ↑2018-07-09 07:00pm Pretty sure Wookiee isn't canon but if they pulled it from a canon book, that's fine. I did recall his height after I posted. The features I always interpreted as being the result of accident or assault, so they're obviously not natural. And to be honest I don't think changing his species, whatever it may be, to human would constitute 'major' as his species has never particularly mattered in the little material we've gotten about him so far, only that he's some form of Force user, probably a Dark Sider of some kind, and in charge of the First Order.

But I'm also pretty sure they wouldn't bother putting Ezra from the TV shows into the movies, so I'm 96%-ish certain it's moot, particularly seeing Snoke is well deceased at this point.

Some of his features look non-natural. Others, its hard to say. But the height would be... certainly an outlier for a human, at least. Not sure, but I think his hands are a bit different, too. I couldn't tell for certain, but in some shots it looked like his first finger was longer than his second.

I do think its unlikely that they're going to make Ezra Snoke, but it would be very easy to incorporate Snoke into the TV show if its set pre-TLJ, and I think that's likely to be done.

Mind you, I also think that given the clashes between what TFA appeared to set up and where TLJ went with it, there is probably at least a good 30-40% chance of Abrams retconning Snoke as alive in Episode IX (if he is permitted to do so).

Emperor Palpatine didn't look human either in the OT.

And to go back, fleshing out Snoke closes out a plot hole of who he was and how he built up his second rise of the Empire. Palpatine really didn't need to much because it was a fresh story. He was the dark sorcerer to Vader's black knight. Then we get 3 OT movies about how and what the Empire is, then 3 movies about the rise of the Empire. The Empire and the Emperor are firmly seats and fairly well spelled out.

2/3'rds the way through the new trillogy, we know it is 30 years post OT, Snoke became the Supreme Leader of the Empire V2.0, he has massive and impressive Force skills, and now he is dead. Unless the First Order goes Naboo and elects teenagers for their leadership, Snoke has to be old enough to have existed during the OT. Who trained him in the Force? Why do the former space Nazi's follow him? It's a damn plot hole. Palpatine was 'fixed' via theme in a new universe. They tried to do the same in Snoke, explain him by theme, but it doesn't work in an established universe.

I know you like the Inquisitor route, and I actually don't mind that. But I also don't think we should have to do mental gymnastics to figure it out with speculation. Hell, would be one thing if he was still alive in universe, keep the mystery going till the end. But he died, like a chump, and it's a glaring hole in the continuity.

I'm still not sure what contradictions there are between TFA and TLJ in regards to Snoke?

No contradictions, per say. Merely that TFA set him up as the Palpatine-esque main villain for the ST but didn't develop him much, and TLJ abruptly terminated his role in the story rather than further developing Snoke.

Crazedwraith wrote: ↑2018-07-11 01:28pm I'm still not sure what contradictions there are between TFA and TLJ in regards to Snoke?

Not a contradiction per say, though is contrary to the established universe of a known super powerful Sith Emperor and a rule of two. Snoke is old enough to have existed during this time, but shouldn't. No real reason he exists but since the writers needed a cardboard cutout villain, he exists with no explanation. Snoke is the 'batarang with glow in the dark, infrared, sonar equipped to find catwomen in dark underground tunnels' that is conviently in Batman's utility belt when Catwomen ran into the subway. There is no reason for it to be there, no explanation is given except it's there, and you're just supposed to swallow it whole and oh... look... edgy shit over there.

Knife wrote: ↑2018-07-11 07:08pm

Crazedwraith wrote: ↑2018-07-11 01:28pm I'm still not sure what contradictions there are between TFA and TLJ in regards to Snoke?

Not a contradiction per say, though is contrary to the established universe of a known super powerful Sith Emperor and a rule of two. Snoke is old enough to have existed during this time, but shouldn't. No real reason he exists but since the writers needed a cardboard cutout villain, he exists with no explanation. Snoke is the 'batarang with glow in the dark, infrared, sonar equipped to find catwomen in dark underground tunnels' that is conviently in Batman's utility belt when Catwomen ran into the subway. There is no reason for it to be there, no explanation is given except it's there, and you're just supposed to swallow it whole and oh... look... edgy shit over there.

This isn't a contradiction, or at least no more than the existence of the Inquisitors and Ventress and the Nightsisters is a contradiction. Snoke isn't a Sith, and the Sith do not have a monopoly on powerful Dark Siders.

The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2018-07-11 07:17pm

Knife wrote: ↑2018-07-11 07:08pm

Crazedwraith wrote: ↑2018-07-11 01:28pm I'm still not sure what contradictions there are between TFA and TLJ in regards to Snoke?

Not a contradiction per say, though is contrary to the established universe of a known super powerful Sith Emperor and a rule of two. Snoke is old enough to have existed during this time, but shouldn't. No real reason he exists but since the writers needed a cardboard cutout villain, he exists with no explanation. Snoke is the 'batarang with glow in the dark, infrared, sonar equipped to find catwomen in dark underground tunnels' that is conviently in Batman's utility belt when Catwomen ran into the subway. There is no reason for it to be there, no explanation is given except it's there, and you're just supposed to swallow it whole and oh... look... edgy shit over there.

This isn't a contradiction, or at least no more than the existence of the Inquisitors and Ventress and the Nightsisters is a contradiction. Snoke isn't a Sith, and the Sith do not have a monopoly on powerful Dark Siders.

Says who? All the old EU stuff is out. You have the Sith and you have the night sisters. I'm going out on a limb and say Snoke wasn't a Night Sister.

In a galaxy of countless planets, societies and organisations, isn't it also likely that Snoke was from some other lot of people?

Knife wrote: ↑2018-07-12 12:52am

The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2018-07-11 07:17pm

Knife wrote: ↑2018-07-11 07:08pm

Not a contradiction per say, though is contrary to the established universe of a known super powerful Sith Emperor and a rule of two. Snoke is old enough to have existed during this time, but shouldn't. No real reason he exists but since the writers needed a cardboard cutout villain, he exists with no explanation. Snoke is the 'batarang with glow in the dark, infrared, sonar equipped to find catwomen in dark underground tunnels' that is conviently in Batman's utility belt when Catwomen ran into the subway. There is no reason for it to be there, no explanation is given except it's there, and you're just supposed to swallow it whole and oh... look... edgy shit over there.

This isn't a contradiction, or at least no more than the existence of the Inquisitors and Ventress and the Nightsisters is a contradiction. Snoke isn't a Sith, and the Sith do not have a monopoly on powerful Dark Siders.

Says who? All the old EU stuff is out. You have the Sith and you have the night sisters. I'm going out on a limb and say Snoke wasn't a Night Sister.

The Inquisitors do belong to the new EU as well. They were trained by Vader and were former Jedi (possibly many of them were Padawans; at least the Grand Inquisitor of the Rebels fame was a Temple Guardian, though, so a fully trained Jedi Knight).

But yeah, Snoke's very existence raises questions that have not been answered so far. Questions that were not raised by the Emperor's existence, since he was established as part of the universe in the very first movie (ANH) and his relationship to Vader plus some connection to the Force was established in ESB. And while the Clone Wars and the Rebels both show that Palpatine is not above using lackeys who can wield the Force and who are not on par with Vader and aren't Sith, Snoke seems like an ill fit for all of them. The Inquisitors aren't really that powerful individually or even as a group (Vader apparently can curb-stomp them all with almost passing ease) and Snoke most likely is not a Nightsister, as Knife pointed out (Maul and Savage aren't really Nightsisters, even though Savage was raised by them and Maul was born among them - Maul was trained by Sidious and Savage was empowered to be used as a weapon of vengeance, not even really trained). There's precious little knowledge of Snoke and while it could build up quite an mystery, it was mostly rendered unsatisfying, disappointing and even frusfrating by his demise. I doubt the next movie will visit his origins or how the First Order came to be under his leadership, but I could be wrong. As it stands, Snoke is an anomaly that doesn't (so far) really fit in the scheme of things, if no new information comes to light.

Gandalf wrote: ↑2018-07-12 01:43am In a galaxy of countless planets, societies and organisations, isn't it also likely that Snoke was from some other lot of people?

My pet theory is that Snoke was the one who formed Knights of Ren or at least was part of that so far really undeveloped Force-tradition. We know they exist, since we saw them in the flashback and Snoke calls Kylo Ren as one of them, but we don't know much else about them. They could be a very old mystic tradition, not as strong or influential or wise in the ways of the Force as the Sith; an off-shoot or an servant order of the Sith; or something Snoke cooked up relatively recently, maybe from those Jedi students who defected with Ben Solo (although it would leave open the question of where Snoke came from).

Knife wrote: ↑2018-07-12 12:52am

The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2018-07-11 07:17pm

Knife wrote: ↑2018-07-11 07:08pm

Not a contradiction per say, though is contrary to the established universe of a known super powerful Sith Emperor and a rule of two. Snoke is old enough to have existed during this time, but shouldn't. No real reason he exists but since the writers needed a cardboard cutout villain, he exists with no explanation. Snoke is the 'batarang with glow in the dark, infrared, sonar equipped to find catwomen in dark underground tunnels' that is conviently in Batman's utility belt when Catwomen ran into the subway. There is no reason for it to be there, no explanation is given except it's there, and you're just supposed to swallow it whole and oh... look... edgy shit over there.

This isn't a contradiction, or at least no more than the existence of the Inquisitors and Ventress and the Nightsisters is a contradiction. Snoke isn't a Sith, and the Sith do not have a monopoly on powerful Dark Siders.

Says who? All the old EU stuff is out. You have the Sith and you have the night sisters. I'm going out on a limb and say Snoke wasn't a Night Sister.

There's a reason I cited both the Inquisitors and Ventress- powerful, Jedi-level Dark Siders who (while employed by the Sith), were not Sith nor Nightsisters (well, Ventress sort of was a Nightsister, for a while).

Edit: There's also that Jedi general in The Clone Wars who loses it- yeah, he was ultimately a Sith pawn, but again, powerful Dark Sider, not a Sith.

Was that Jedi actually a Dark Sider or just deviant, though? I don't really recall him using anything like Force lightning. He might have used a Force choke or two, but honestly I don't remember anything that would be out of the norm for a light-side user.

Elheru Aran wrote: ↑2018-07-12 07:56pm Was that Jedi actually a Dark Sider or just deviant, though? I don't really recall him using anything like Force lightning. He might have used a Force choke or two, but honestly I don't remember anything that would be out of the norm for a light-side user.

That depends, I think, on how you define a Dark Sider. He had clearly fallen to the dark side, so by that definition he was a Dark Sider.

Knife wrote: ↑2018-07-11 07:08pmNot a contradiction per say, though is contrary to the established universe of a known super powerful Sith Emperor and a rule of two.

What is the rule of two now anyway? Was something rehabilitated into the new canon?

Snoke is old enough to have existed during this time, but shouldn't. No real reason he exists but since the writers needed a cardboard cutout villain, he exists with no explanation. Snoke is the 'batarang with glow in the dark, infrared, sonar equipped to find catwomen in dark underground tunnels' that is conviently in Batman's utility belt when Catwomen ran into the subway. There is no reason for it to be there, no explanation is given except it's there, and you're just supposed to swallow it whole and oh... look... edgy shit over there.

Wait, why shouldn't he exist? It's a big galaxy, and the Jedi/Sith clearly can't find everyone and put them into the ranks. They didn't even find Force Jesus until God sent them to his specific workplace.

Gandalf wrote: ↑2018-07-13 02:41am

Knife wrote: ↑2018-07-11 07:08pmNot a contradiction per say, though is contrary to the established universe of a known super powerful Sith Emperor and a rule of two.

What is the rule of two now anyway? Was something rehabilitated into the new canon?

Snoke is old enough to have existed during this time, but shouldn't. No real reason he exists but since the writers needed a cardboard cutout villain, he exists with no explanation. Snoke is the 'batarang with glow in the dark, infrared, sonar equipped to find catwomen in dark underground tunnels' that is conviently in Batman's utility belt when Catwomen ran into the subway. There is no reason for it to be there, no explanation is given except it's there, and you're just supposed to swallow it whole and oh... look... edgy shit over there.

Wait, why shouldn't he exist? It's a big galaxy, and the Jedi/Sith clearly can't find everyone and put them into the ranks. They didn't even find Force Jesus until God sent them to his specific workplace.

The Rule of Two is film canon, sort of. In Phantom Menace, Yoda and Windu discuss it at the end, I believe, when discussing the return of the Sith and whether Maul was the master or apprentice. However, its somewhat ambiguous, I think, whether it applies to there being only two Sith, or each master taking only one apprentice.

The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2018-07-13 04:40pm

Gandalf wrote: ↑2018-07-13 02:41am

Knife wrote: ↑2018-07-11 07:08pmNot a contradiction per say, though is contrary to the established universe of a known super powerful Sith Emperor and a rule of two.

What is the rule of two now anyway? Was something rehabilitated into the new canon?

Snoke is old enough to have existed during this time, but shouldn't. No real reason he exists but since the writers needed a cardboard cutout villain, he exists with no explanation. Snoke is the 'batarang with glow in the dark, infrared, sonar equipped to find catwomen in dark underground tunnels' that is conviently in Batman's utility belt when Catwomen ran into the subway. There is no reason for it to be there, no explanation is given except it's there, and you're just supposed to swallow it whole and oh... look... edgy shit over there.

Wait, why shouldn't he exist? It's a big galaxy, and the Jedi/Sith clearly can't find everyone and put them into the ranks. They didn't even find Force Jesus until God sent them to his specific workplace.

The Rule of Two is film canon, sort of. In Phantom Menace, Yoda and Windu discuss it at the end, I believe, when discussing the return of the Sith and whether Maul was the master or apprentice. However, its somewhat ambiguous, I think, whether it applies to there being only two Sith, or each master taking only one apprentice.

At least when Sidious engages Maul and Savage on Mandalore in CW, he outright states (can’t link the actual scene right now)

Darth Sidious wrote:Remember the first and the only reality of the Sith: there can only be two. And you are no longer my apprentice. You have been replaced!

In the same series, when Yoda faces a vision of Darth Bane’s spectre, the spectral illusion speaks about only two Sith existing at any time after his reformation.

Ah yes, forgot about that. Since The Clone Wars is unambiguously Disney canon, the Rule of Two is firmly established in the new canon.

I can't speak for CW, but the TPM quote is pretty vague. I took it to mean that Sith just operated in cells of two.

It would be awkward if such a scary order of space wizards happened to be spending time together and an accident wiped out the two of them and thus the whole thing.

Gandalf wrote: ↑2018-07-13 10:59pm I can't speak for CW, but the TPM quote is pretty vague. I took it to mean that Sith just operated in cells of two.

It would be awkward if such a scary order of space wizards happened to be spending time together and an accident wiped out the two of them and thus the whole thing.

Yeah, though Force premonitions probably help with that.

And I expect there are loads of Sith artifacts lying around to corrupt unwitting Jedi, as well.

I kinda prefer the idea that Snoke hails from the Unknown Regions and was completely unaffiliated with any particular Force-discipline. That means he's not an ex-Jedi, a lost Sith or anything else that we've heard of before. He's more like Bendu: an extremely old and powerful Force user whose only limitation is that he was essentially confined to an isolated world in an isolated part of the galaxy until sometime after ROTJ.

This new show could explore that quite effectively.

That works to explain how he came out of seemingly nowhere despite having such power, but it doesn't necessarily explain why he'd cloak himself in Imperial imagery or attach such importance to Vader's bloodline, nor why former Imperial officers would flock to him.

That's what the new show could explain.

Maybe he was found by Grand Admiral Rae Sloane, took up residence on her SSD and soon after declared himself the true heir to Palpatine's legacy. Isn't that essentially what Joruus C'baoth did in the Thrawn trilogy?