Counters to Hyperdrive Ramming

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Re: Counters to Hyperdrive Ramming

Post by MKSheppard » 2018-08-01 07:38pm

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The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-08-01 07:28pm
Also, gravity wells fuck with hyperdrives, so its doubtful you could even get close to a planet in hyperspace (though I don't know if most "casual" fans would know that).
Well, in the OT; Han says:

Han Solo: It'll take a few moments to get the coordinates from the navicomputer.

Luke Skywalker: [frantic] Are you kidding? At the rate they're gaining—

Han Solo: Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?


This implies that Hyperspace travel is pretty dangerous, if you take things close to the bleeding edge, and in the OT, all the cases of hyperspace escapes, etc are in fairly deep space past a planet's gravity well, e.g. the Rebel Transports in ESB continue pushing on right past the crippled ISD, instead of instantly jumping into hyperspace.

Disney Films basically throw that out of the window, turning hyperdrives into a "get out of jail free card":

***Rogue One, they use it to escape the oncoming crustal displacement wave from the DS1 pilot target shot that destroys Jedha City, and they do it from about maybe 5,000 ft above ground level in atmosphere.

***The Force Awakens, Han goes into hyperspace from within the cargo bay of another ship. :shock:

I'm sure there are others, but I'm tired and feh.
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Re: Counters to Hyperdrive Ramming

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-08-01 07:45pm

Hyperspace does seem easier in the new films, now that you mention it. The ST could be passed off as improvements in nav computers, or (in Han's case) as Han being an absolutely exceptional pilot who has heavily modified his vessel for smuggling/running blockades, but I should have remembered Jedha in Rogue One. I don't recall any explanation being offered in that scene.
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Re: Counters to Hyperdrive Ramming

Post by Batman » 2018-08-01 07:51pm

Given that a key plot point in TFA was the Falcon stardriving through the planetary shield the 'cant leave hyperspace too close to a planet' bit is at least dubious. However since we know essentially bupkis about how hyperdrives work it's entirely possible that what works for small ships doesn't work for big ones.
That being said you are quite correct that the Resistance squadron limping towards Crait for hours on end was odd. While Wars ships rather consistently need to leave orbit to go lightspeed, at no point before have we seen them spend multiple hours trying to get out of the planet's gravity well. TLJ itself shows the First Order ships de-lightspeeding pretty close to the planet.

The only thing that comes immediately to mind is that the Resistance deliberately dropped out far from the planet in the hopes the First Order wouldn't notice it's there and even I don't really buy that
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Re: Counters to Hyperdrive Ramming

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-08-01 07:56pm

Batman wrote:
2018-08-01 07:51pm
Given that a key plot point in TFA was the Falcon stardriving through the planetary shield the 'cant leave hyperspace too close to a planet' bit is at least dubious. However since we know essentially bupkis about how hyperdrives work it's entirely possible that what works for small ships doesn't work for big ones.
That being said you are quite correct that the Resistance squadron limping towards Crait for hours on end was odd. While Wars ships rather consistently need to leave orbit to go lightspeed, at no point before have we seen them spend multiple hours trying to get out of the planet's gravity well. TLJ itself shows the First Order ships de-lightspeeding pretty close to the planet.

The only thing that comes immediately to mind is that the Resistance deliberately dropped out far from the planet in the hopes the First Order wouldn't notice it's there and even I don't really buy that
Only exception (at least in the films) to having to at least be past low orbit to hyper that I can think of off the top of my head is Jedha in Rogue One.

As to the long flight to Crait, yeah, there's really not a good explanation for it. I'd actually say that continuity-wise, its probably the single weakest element of TLJ (a film I will otherwise generally defend).

Best explanations are the one you gave, trying to preserve every scrap of fuel they could, or incompetence. None of which are terribly satisfying or likely, in my opinion.
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Re: Counters to Hyperdrive Ramming

Post by MKSheppard » 2018-08-01 07:57pm

Batman wrote:
2018-08-01 07:51pm
Given that a key plot point in TFA was the Falcon stardriving through the planetary shield the 'cant leave hyperspace too close to a planet' bit is at least dubious. However since we know essentially bupkis about how hyperdrives work it's entirely possible that what works for small ships doesn't work for big ones.
I completely forgot that.

But how can you explain the Falcon not going to hyperspace over Mos Eisley in ANH then? Why the whole rigamole of "They're gaining on us!"

You might explain it as "In ANH, Han is basically a nobody with a hot rodded spacecraft and creaky hyperdrive; and by TFA, he got an upgrade during that brief 3-4 year period where he was on top of Galactic Society and had an unlimited credit account."

But what about Darth Maul in TPM?

He's working for the top elite guy in the galactic power scene, in a custom built craft made by the top 1% of 1% yet, he comes out of hyperspace well away from Tatooine and has to crawl towards it like some peon.

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Re: Counters to Hyperdrive Ramming

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-08-01 08:00pm

I think you have to just presume that hyperdrives have improved in the intervening decades, plus Han is one of the absolute best pilots in the galaxy with decades of experience in running blockades.

Still doesn't explain Jedha, though. Anyone care to try to rationalize that one? 'Cause I can usually come up with an explanation for Star Wars plot issues, but I'm kind of drawing a blank on this one.
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Re: Counters to Hyperdrive Ramming

Post by Vympel » 2018-08-01 09:08pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2018-08-01 08:00pm
I think you have to just presume that hyperdrives have improved in the intervening decades, plus Han is one of the absolute best pilots in the galaxy with decades of experience in running blockades.

Still doesn't explain Jedha, though. Anyone care to try to rationalize that one? 'Cause I can usually come up with an explanation for Star Wars plot issues, but I'm kind of drawing a blank on this one.
The problem of going to hyperspace within a planet's orbit first came up in Clone Wars, specifically Jedi crash, where Anakin's light cruiser went to lightspeed due to a battle damage malfunction. The rationalisation then, as it is now, is that you can go to hyperspace within a planetary gravity well, but it is extremely risky and could result in the destruction of the ship.

There's a canon young adult novel that's come out recently which goes into detail on the risk - the risk is either the ship immediately explodes, or the ship breaks up in hyperspace.

Bears noting - Interdictor gravity wells and planetary gravity wells are clearly not the same. Interdictor gravity wells (as seen in Rebels) cannot be overriden / risked as a 'conventional' planetary well can - they also physically pull ships out of hyperspace, by force (which is not something ordinary planetary wells ever do).
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Re: Counters to Hyperdrive Ramming

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2018-08-02 12:25pm

I think the Jedha example can be written off as "they were dead anyway, they took a chance and got lucky."
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Re: Counters to Hyperdrive Ramming

Post by Imperial528 » 2018-08-02 02:43pm

Jedha is also easily explainable as a fluke, where the risk outweighs the reward unless you're doomed otherwise.

Whereas even if Holdo's hyperspace ram was a fluke, the potential for damage is so great and the relative cost so little that to ignore it as an avenue for research would be mind-bogglingly dumb.

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Re: Counters to Hyperdrive Ramming

Post by Elheru Aran » 2018-08-02 05:05pm

Vympel wrote:
2018-08-01 09:08pm
Bears noting - Interdictor gravity wells and planetary gravity wells are clearly not the same. Interdictor gravity wells (as seen in Rebels) cannot be overriden / risked as a 'conventional' planetary well can - they also physically pull ships out of hyperspace, by force (which is not something ordinary planetary wells ever do).
Wasn't there something in old EU (don't think it was ever demonstrated in the movies/TV) that ships could be pulled out of hyperspace by hitting a gravity well, and someone had the crazy tactic of having a fleet pop out of hyperspace by entering a planetary gravity well?

That may have been an Interdictor gravity well now that I think about it though.

Also, new canon does discuss hyperspace accidents, IIRC the Tarkin novel mentions a ship ramming a planet at hyperspace. So obviously enough in the new canon planetary gravity wells are not sufficient to disrupt hyperdrives.

It could be theorized that in addition to a gravity well, Interdictor cruisers interfere with the hyperspace dimension in some way, thus tripping ships out of it.
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Re: Counters to Hyperdrive Ramming

Post by Lord Revan » 2018-08-02 05:21pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:
2018-08-02 12:25pm
I think the Jedha example can be written off as "they were dead anyway, they took a chance and got lucky."
there could also be difference between "military" and "civilian" nav Computers/hyperdrives, it possible that most "civilian" models won't allow entering/exiting hyperspace in grav well but "military" models do.

Remember that the stunt Han pulled in TFA ended up with a crash, now think what would happen if someone tried that over a populated region or worse tried over a populated region and miscalculated and ended up crashing to surface so hard they were vaporized on impact. That's more then enough reason to limit non-military hyperdrives to auto exit at the edge of the grav well (or at least far enough from the surface to have "safe zone"). The U-wing is after all a military craft.
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Re: Counters to Hyperdrive Ramming

Post by Elheru Aran » 2018-08-02 05:34pm

Lord Revan wrote:
2018-08-02 05:21pm
Eternal_Freedom wrote:
2018-08-02 12:25pm
I think the Jedha example can be written off as "they were dead anyway, they took a chance and got lucky."
there could also be difference between "military" and "civilian" nav Computers/hyperdrives, it possible that most "civilian" models won't allow entering/exiting hyperspace in grav well but "military" models do.

Remember that the stunt Han pulled in TFA ended up with a crash, now think what would happen if someone tried that over a populated region or worse tried over a populated region and miscalculated and ended up crashing to surface so hard they were vaporized on impact. That's more then enough reason to limit non-military hyperdrives to auto exit at the edge of the grav well (or at least far enough from the surface to have "safe zone"). The U-wing is after all a military craft.
^an excellent point. It's quite possible that the safety margins programmed into hyperdrive computers are tuned closer to the "danger zone" or whatever, and then of course there's nothing stopping hotshot pilots from deliberately tampering with the hyperdrives. That's probably how Han was able to pull the TFA stunt in the first place (and why the Falcon has perennial mechanical problems).

Alternatively, it may be that it's less dangerous to hyper *out* rather than hyper *in* to a gravity well and so there are less restrictions on doing so; it's just discouraged under normal circumstances for traffic-safety reasons, or possibly when a ship enters hyperdrive there's a release of exotic radiation, whatever, that's not good in atmosphere. *shrugs* any number of ways you could go really if you think about it, I guess.
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Re: Counters to Hyperdrive Ramming

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-08-02 06:06pm

Elheru Aran wrote:
2018-08-02 05:05pm
Vympel wrote:
2018-08-01 09:08pm
Bears noting - Interdictor gravity wells and planetary gravity wells are clearly not the same. Interdictor gravity wells (as seen in Rebels) cannot be overriden / risked as a 'conventional' planetary well can - they also physically pull ships out of hyperspace, by force (which is not something ordinary planetary wells ever do).
Wasn't there something in old EU (don't think it was ever demonstrated in the movies/TV) that ships could be pulled out of hyperspace by hitting a gravity well, and someone had the crazy tactic of having a fleet pop out of hyperspace by entering a planetary gravity well?

That may have been an Interdictor gravity well now that I think about it though.

Also, new canon does discuss hyperspace accidents, IIRC the Tarkin novel mentions a ship ramming a planet at hyperspace. So obviously enough in the new canon planetary gravity wells are not sufficient to disrupt hyperdrives.

It could be theorized that in addition to a gravity well, Interdictor cruisers interfere with the hyperspace dimension in some way, thus tripping ships out of it.
You're probably thinking of the Thrawn Trilogy. A favorite tactic of Thrawn's was to use interdictors to control exactly where a ship would drop out of hyperspace, to allow his fleet to perform more precise maneuvers than would otherwise be possible.
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Re: Counters to Hyperdrive Ramming

Post by Elheru Aran » 2018-08-02 06:33pm

That's right. Been a long time since I read those books.

If I had to speculate, I'd say that perhaps planets, being natural features of space, are less... obtrusive? in hyperspace, until you're almost directly hitting them, or their gravity well engages it in a different fashion. Interdictor gravity wells, being artificial, act as more of a dam to directly block anything moving in hyperspace.
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Re: Counters to Hyperdrive Ramming

Post by Vympel » 2018-08-03 09:11am

Also to refer back to the films, if planetary gravity wells were stand-in for Interdictor projectors, then Han's comment about flying right through a star in ANH should be impossible, right?
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Re: Counters to Hyperdrive Ramming

Post by Elheru Aran » 2018-08-03 02:40pm

Vympel wrote:
2018-08-03 09:11am
Also to refer back to the films, if planetary gravity wells were stand-in for Interdictor projectors, then Han's comment about flying right through a star in ANH should be impossible, right?
Good point... though one should note that one can go "through" something, it's just that your component parts might not be attached to each other once you're through the other side... but that's pedantry. All right, no particular objection to planetary gravity wells not affecting hyperspace nearly the same way as Interdictors, I'll own up to a flawed recall of the Thrawn trilogy.
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Re: Counters to Hyperdrive Ramming

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-08-03 03:02pm

Yeah, I imagine you can hyper "through" a sun in much the same way that Holdo hypered "through" the First Order fleet. Nothing recognizeable as a ship, much less anything alive, is going to emerge on the other side.
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Re: Counters to Hyperdrive Ramming

Post by NecronLord » 2018-08-05 03:31pm

Planetary gravity cannot prevent hyperspace because in Solo...
Spoiler
The Falcon engages hyperspace while being affected by multiple Gs of real-gravity, given that it couldn't move forward on its own power.
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Re: Counters to Hyperdrive Ramming

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-08-05 06:35pm

NecronLord wrote:
2018-08-05 03:31pm
Planetary gravity cannot prevent hyperspace because in Solo...
Spoiler
The Falcon engages hyperspace while being affected by multiple Gs of real-gravity, given that it couldn't move forward on its own power.
Well that's odd, because Thrawn: Alliances, the whole plot of the book hinges on the natural gravity Wells of a moon or planet stopping hyperdrive travel.
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Re: Counters to Hyperdrive Ramming

Post by Batman » 2018-08-05 06:47pm

It's not like the novels contradicting movie canon is a recent development
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Re: Counters to Hyperdrive Ramming

Post by Elheru Aran » 2018-08-06 04:59pm

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that in older canon there was also stuff about gravity wells influencing hyperspace in SOME fashion. Certainly not as abruptly as Interdictor cruisers and other artificial gravity well generators, but there was definitely something about coming out of hyperspace within gravity wells.
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Re: Counters to Hyperdrive Ramming

Post by Bob the Gunslinger » 2018-08-07 04:36pm

MKSheppard wrote:
2018-06-03 01:17pm
Juubi Karakuchi wrote:
2018-04-22 03:31pm
Apologies in advance if someone has beat me to this.

The Holdo Manoeuvre, otherwise known as Hyperdrive or Hyperspace Ramming, has gotten a lot of attention among the fan community (or at least certain portions of it), leading to a lot of complaints that it has broken Star Wars.
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Re: Counters to Hyperdrive Ramming

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2018-08-07 05:08pm

Would this be a fairly accurate summary of the current canon:

Its possible to hyper in a gravity well, but possibly risky and rarely done. Interdictors (artificial gravity wells) still work, but function differently from natural gravity wells.
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Re: Counters to Hyperdrive Ramming

Post by Gandalf » 2018-08-07 05:11pm

Imperial528 wrote:
2018-08-02 02:43pm
Jedha is also easily explainable as a fluke, where the risk outweighs the reward unless you're doomed otherwise.
I'd like to think of it as one of those "God wills it" moments in SW, where divine force intervened to keep them alive on their holy quest.
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